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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
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11) commenting under the obvious influence

Coming in 2009: 100 Things Dodger Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die, by Jon Weisman
2008-05-19 00:35
by Jon Weisman

I'm still overwhelmed, still not getting enough sleep. But it's not the baby's fault. Almost miraculously, he started sleeping six- and seven-hour stretches a week or so ago, and he only turns two months old on Tuesday. It took his older brother more than six months to get a good night's sleep.

Even when the little one wakes up at 4 or 5 in the morning, he goes right back to sleep after he's been fed, rather than kicking a fuss for another hour. We are beside ourselves with glee, all the time knocking on wood (even as I write this).

No, I'm up in the wee hours and dragging myself out of bed in the mornings for another reason entirely.

Shortly before we headed to the hospital for the birth of Nipper 3, I got an offer from Triumph Books, a sports division of Random House, to write the Dodger version of this book: 100 Things Mets Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die. I wanted to wait until the deal was done and I had made some headway in the writing before mentioning it here, but I'm pleased to be able to tell you today that it's happening: 100 Things Dodger Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die, by me. And I have you in part to thank for it. If it weren't for your support of my writing and the way you have helped developed this site's reputation for thoughtful and fun conversation about the Dodgers, I don't know that this dream of mine to write a Dodger book - for reals - would ever have come true. So thanks - I mean it.

Of course, your work isn't done. You should be able to purchase 100 Things Dodger Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die (a title that's a little morbid for my taste, but think positive) next spring, so start saving money for it now: I'm counting on you. It's going to be 100 percent new writing that you haven't seen online - or, 99 percent anyway - so there's all the more reason to shell out for it.

If you have any suggestions for the book, feel free to offer them in the thread below. As you can tell from the title, it's not all about events like Kirk Gibson's homer; it may also have chapters or sidebars on getting a bag of peanuts from Roger Owens or that game-winning pinch hit by Tim Leary years ago. The book will be tilted more toward the Los Angeles era, because there's general agreement that about 10 times as many Brooklyn-era books have been written, though it will go back all the way to the 19th century for ideas. I've already got more than 150 items on my list, so it's been hard for me to imagine I'm missing anything, but I've had two friends come up with good ideas I hadn't thought of, so I figured it would be good to check in with you all.

The pace is exhausting if you consider my other obligations - with an October 1 deadline, I have to average almost a chapter a day to get the first draft done in time for me to have the revising time I want, but let me tell you, it's been fun. I think you'll enjoy reading it.

Comments (278)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-05-19 00:44:59
1.   Eric Enders
Awesome. I am so looking forward to this.
2008-05-19 00:55:41
2.   bhsportsguy
Things I want to see in the book and congrats Jon, will there be a book signing at Spring Training or Dodger Stadium. I'll even pay full price for the book.

1. R.J. Reynolds
2. Pedro Guerrero, at his peak, the best offensive player to ever play for the Los Angeles not named Mike Piazza.
3. Farmer John
4. Andy Messersmith, the player who changed baseball.
5. How Bob Costas won the 1988 World Series for the Dodgers.
6. Best Weekend in Dodger history, Astros vs. Dodgers, 1980.
7. Vic Davillio
8. May 7, 1970
9. Junior Gilliam
10. Jerry Doggett

2008-05-19 00:55:58
3.   Jon Weisman
Crikey, the baby just woke up. If that don't beat all ...
2008-05-19 00:59:35
4.   bryanf
Congratulations Jon! I eagerly await the preorder page on Amazon. I don't think I've been so anxious to get a book since I heard Steve Martin was writing a biography.

I must admit I have little to offer in the way of ideas. I'm sure anything I could mention would already be on your list, but it will be great to see everyone's ideas flow in and I can't wait to see the final result.

So awesome.

2008-05-19 01:01:00
5.   bryanf
Hey, will the 100 things be in any particular order?
2008-05-19 01:09:02
6.   bhsportsguy
5 I'll be disappointed if R.J. or the Pedros (Astacio or Guerrero) are not in the first 5. :)
2008-05-19 01:17:06
7.   LoneStar7
Thats exciting news, the book sounds great..being a youngster I cant offer a lot, but since I was less than a month old when the dodgers won the world series in 1988, the greatest moment I've been a part of, and had the pleasure of attending was Lima Time at the Ravine in the 2004 NLDS...I'll never ever forget that
2008-05-19 01:18:20
8.   bhsportsguy
"Hannah and Her Sisters" is on the tube right now and I am reminded how attractive I found Barbara Hershey in this movie.

It remains one of Allen's best.

2008-05-19 05:17:46
9.   Ken Noe
It's official: Gary Bennett can't throw:

2008-05-19 05:39:06
10.   Suffering Bruin
Congratulations, host! I'm making room on the bookshelf and marking birthdays for friends.
2008-05-19 05:52:59
11.   Alex Belth
Congrats Jon! Great news in a year of swell news for you. Can't wait to read this book.
2008-05-19 06:06:31
12.   MollyKnight

When do the pre-orders start??

2008-05-19 06:41:26
13.   3upn3down
Can't wait to get my hands on it Jon. I wish you all of the best success in this endeavor.
2008-05-19 07:01:24
14.   Sushirabbit
Ha! Very Cool, you should nestle this one in there somewhere: Visit! Seriously.

Glad to hear about the new one sleeping, I was just thinking about that this weekend, my second is sleeping really well now (16 mos). Knock on my head.

2008-05-19 07:29:22
15.   Jon Weisman
Loni Anderson got married. It's a good day for everyone!

2008-05-19 07:39:39
16.   Daisuke Shimizu
First time poster, long time lurker, reading since just before your coming over to the Toaster. I just wanted to congratulate you, Jon, on the book (and your baby, of course). As I live in Japan and with the time differences, it's rather difficult to post before all the discussions have all but ended. So I thought this might as well be the best time to make my first post.

Looking forward to bringing at least one copy of your book to this side of the pond. And thank you as always (to Ken, also) for providing a valuable and civil forum.

2008-05-19 07:52:56
17.   Improbable88
Fantastic news! Consider it purchased!
2008-05-19 07:55:08
18.   uke
Congrats Jon!
2008-05-19 08:08:43
19.   ToyCannon
Congratulations and looking forward to the book.
2008-05-19 08:11:28
20.   scareduck
Comment on Eric Enders' 343 in the previous thread -- thanks for the correction on the Kazmir trade. I wasn't sure about that one and didn't look it up.

But as for your comment about Jones -- what data was there available to support the idea that Jones would be any good? I know that there were a lot of sabermetric types who liked this deal; Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus was one, calling it "far and away the smartest thing any team does this winter". But for me the crucial information was

1) reports of his increased weight last year, and a general tendency towards apathy about conditioning. Having suffered through most of the Angels' contract to Bartolo Colon, that makes a huge difference.
2) Dave Studeman's piece at THT about Jones' line drive rates, which had been declining for some time, which was written as a companion piece to the contemporaneous John Beamer article, also on Jones:

FWIW, I wrote a roundup post with a bunch of links to various opinions on the signing here:

It was an awful risk to take.

2008-05-19 08:19:41
21.   popup
Great news Jon. Number one on my personal list is a visit to Cooperstown to listen to Vin and Jerry's broadcast of Sandy's perfect game. The Hall has the complete broadcast and from what I understand a person can listen to the entire game at the library. I have listened to the 9th inning of that game so often I can almost recite it from memory.

Stan from Tacoma

2008-05-19 08:21:30
22.   Michael Green
Jon, your list should include saying something nice about Jerry Doggett and Ross Porter. We didn't appreciate their work as much as we should have because they worked beside the broadcasting equivalent of God.

Another one: learn about the shin-kicking contest between Leo Durocher and Jocko Conlan. One of the great moments at the Coliseum.

2008-05-19 08:24:00
23.   Disabled List
I can't think of anyone better to write this book than Jon. Congratulations!

Things that should be in the book:

- The 22-inning marathon games of 1989.
- The last game of the 1993 season.
- Jack Fimple.
- How Jody Reed doomed the Dodgers for a decade.
- Cool-a-coos.
- Ross Porter and Jerry Doggett.
- Game 4 of the 1988 NLCS.
- Mike Piazza getting hosed out of back-to-back MVPs in 1996-97.
- Dave Kingman's performance.
- 4+1, of course.
- A visit to Dodgertown, even though the Dodgers aren't there anymore.
- A visit to the former site of Ebbets Field, even though the Dodgers aren't there anymore.
- Why Robert Moses is more of a villain than Walter O'Malley.
- Why you should never pitch to Jack Clark with runners on base and first base open in the late innings of a close playoff game.

Things that shouldn't be in the book:

- Juan Pierre.

2008-05-19 08:24:54
24.   DodgerBakers
Congratulations, Jon. I look forward to reading this book

FWIW, I thought your "Buttercup" entry awhile back was fantastic and wouldn't mind reading it again in the book.

2008-05-19 08:31:42
25.   Bob Timmermann
Another Retrosheet researcher, Michael Mavrogiannis, went through the Retrosheet database of strikeouts that ended up requiring the batter being thrown out.

There were 183,324 events like that in his set (going back to 1956 with a few older years added in). 99.65% of the time, the batter is out. 3,311 batters reached first. 82 reached second. 10 reached third.

Some of the batters who reached third involved a combination of a wild pitch or two errors.

2008-05-19 08:39:48
26.   kinbote
Congrats, Jon. They chose the perfect person for the job.
2008-05-19 08:43:21
27.   underdog
Many congrats, Jon! This sounds like a match made in (blue) heaven. I'll be all over this book when it's out.

I agree with Disabled List's, uh, list in 23, though I should think that Jack Fimple should be at #1. That goes without saying, however.

And the last one on that list made me think maybe there should be a section of its own, for "events/plays you need to know that still make Dodger fans bitter" including Joe Morgan and yes, Jack Clark, and other painful memories that any true fan still needs to be aware of when some of us mopes bring it up.

2008-05-19 08:49:16
28.   ibleedbloo
Things to do:

See how many Dodger Dogs you can eat in the right field pavillion (I am doing that one tonight)

Pop a beach ball at Dodger Stadium

Do "The Wave"

Go to a day game in August and not sit in the shade

Go on the field for Picture Day

Watch fireworks for the field

--that all i have for now, but I'm sure more will come to me

2008-05-19 08:53:35
29.   cargill06
2008-05-19 09:00:26
30.   JoeyP
9--Why not just force him to throw the ball directly back to the pitcher instead of his lob throws?
2008-05-19 09:01:16
31.   ibleedbloo
28 *Watch fireworks FROM the field...oh yeah, and congrats Jon.
2008-05-19 09:05:11
32.   JoeyP

He must have got caught thinking 2007 was just an aberration, instead of the start of a decline.

Druw was never a high OBP guy, and as player age they tend to lose their power first (due to loss of bat speed).

Sheehan must have only loved the contract, but still 36 mils over two years is nothing to sneeze at.

I think most people here thought it was an ok move, but if Pierre played LF that it was really a nothing move that would end up costing the team alot of money. No one thought Druw would be this bad, but then again I dont think anyone would give Druw 2/36 for him to repeat his 2007 season either.

2008-05-19 09:13:24
33.   Bob Hendley
Look forward to the section on the Giants rivalry, with Marichal/Roseboro incident, the sandbox installed by first base at Candlestick to slow Wills down, etc
2008-05-19 09:19:14
34.   kinbote
32 Even though a lot of people here supported the Jones signing at the time, much of that can be attributed to the overall queasiness that goes along with having Colletti as a general manager. For a while now, commenters like Canuck have basically taken a position of, "As long as he doesn't trade the young players, it could be worse."
2008-05-19 09:24:13
35.   cargill06
so went to the game sat, fantastic game, great seats (3rd row halfway between RF foul pole and 1st base) got a great view of blake's HR and it was pretty obvious from where we were sitting that the HR was not going to clear the wall.

there was a group of 3 girls and a guy behind us. they were having pretty interesting conversations on topics such as, how much weed they smoke, all the guys they've had sex with and their aspirations to become a stripper. they were having margarita after margirta than i hear one girl say "hun, you're under-aged and if your father see's you drunk he'll kill me." than i turned around and realized that these conversations they were having was with one of the girls mother. and of course after a few drinks i hear here say i'm going to try to be one sportscenter and she than was flashing the crowd a number of times. than i hear her mom say "it's ok there are no kids around." that makes me think soceity has take a hop skip and a jump backwards

but other than that i'm glad i went to the win, becuase the angels and their fans annoy me, but of course they take 2 out of 3 and continue to own the blue.

2008-05-19 09:33:28
36.   fanerman
35 I think you just won the "society has taken a step backwards" game from last week. That's pretty ridiculous and sad.
2008-05-19 09:33:51
37.   underdog
35 - That's just plain disturbing. Sounds like a family that watches too many VH-1/A&E Reality shows about other disturbingly dysfunctional, narcissistic families and are trying to emulate, thusly.

Glad you at least chose to see the right game.

Hope the Dodgers wake up against a suddenly hot Reds team at home, starting tonight.

Good news that Furcal will probably be back on Friday. Not that the team's missed him or anything...

2008-05-19 09:36:19
38.   Jacob L
Congratulations, Jon. Its well deserved.

Before I logged on this morning, I thought I'd ask you to write a post about the wall hitting Derek Lowe, but then I read your post below and thought I'd hold back. Lets just get Furcal back.

As for the book, here are my humble suggestions:
-ice cream for days in first place (I wonder if team employees gain a lot of wait in good seasons).
-Steve Yeager, the inventor
-the two Mike Marshalls and how to tell them apart (one is indestructible, and the other well, less so)
-how to perform an appendectomy at home
-Tommy Lasorda stories in shorthand

I'm sure I'll come up with more, not that I think it'll help you much, but it'll amuse me.

2008-05-19 09:39:10
39.   regfairfield
Congrats, Jon.

Is there anywhere that has game logs with errors included? It would make my life a lot easier.

2008-05-19 09:46:00
40.   Bob Timmermann
Game logs for what? The minors?
2008-05-19 09:47:19
41.   regfairfield
40 Game by game numbers for a player in the majors. Basically, this person committed an error on X day.
2008-05-19 09:53:13
42.   Bob Hendley
37 - Everybody misses Furcal, except Colletti, who wouldn't even miss eight Furcals.
2008-05-19 09:57:31
43.   Bob Timmermann
Retrosheet will have them when the season is over. But B-R and don't compile them I believe while the season is ongoing.
2008-05-19 09:59:07
44.   regfairfield
43 Is that in the same place as the normal gamelogs, because I didn't see errors on there.
2008-05-19 09:59:08
45.   regfairfield
2008-05-19 10:00:33
46.   Bob Timmermann
The photographers in Ogden are tough.

Check the caption and the photo credit.

2008-05-19 10:01:47
47.   Bob Timmermann
Rafael Furcal's fielding log for 2007:

2008-05-19 10:07:32
48.   dagwich
Congrats Jon. My only suggestion for the book is that all Dodger fans should hear Danny Kaye's D-O-D-G-E-R-S song at least once. My brothers and I still riff off it some 45 years later.

Anybody know where I can find the upcoming pitching assignments for the Suns? The Suns are coming to my neck of the woods this weekend to play the Mudcats at beautiful Five County Stadium, right outside of Lizard Lick, NC. I'd like to see Kershaw or McDonald if possible but I can't seem to find out who is due to start. I suspect Kershaw will still be with the Suns and might pitch Thursday.


2008-05-19 10:09:45
49.   regfairfield
47 Cool, thanks Bob.
2008-05-19 10:11:08
50.   Sushirabbit
46, for those eating lunch you might want to wait awhile on viewing that. Thanks Bob, I'll have to get a new shirt now! (kidding)
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-05-19 10:12:09
51.   Bob Hendley
48 - Total and complete envy at the thought of seeing the mythical one. Btw, the name of the town has a nice ring to it. Perhaps D4P might think about relocating there, instead of Irvine.
2008-05-19 10:18:08
52.   Bob Timmermann
Living in California, where many counties are bigger than New England states, makes the idea of a "Five Counties Stadium" seem quite funny.

I suppose if you wedged a stadium in a place like Diamond Bar or Corona, you could conceivably say you serve four counties (L.A., Orange, San Berdoo, and Riverside), but aside from the screwball counties in the Gold Country, I can't find a spot where you can get five California counties to share a land border.

2008-05-19 10:22:21
53.   Bob Timmermann
But it's SFW!
2008-05-19 10:29:53
54.   dagwich
[51,52] Yeah, that's why I would like the upcoming pitching matchups, to know what night he's on for. And perhaps I'm shallow but it gives me some pride to inform Bob that the stadium's official name is "Five County Stadium", not "Five Counties Stadium" -- although for all these years I just accepted the correctness of the name. And, FCS is actually listed in Zebulon, NC but I like to say it's just outside Lizard Lick. It's really like the Field of Dreams -- a stadium stuck in the midst of corn and tobacco fields.
2008-05-19 10:31:27
55.   Howard Fox
Congrats, Jon...

Finally something to look forward to doing in October, since I highly doubt I'll be going to Dodger games then...

2008-05-19 10:32:11
56.   larry slimfast
every dodger fan should know that branch rickey was doing stuff like this (and winning with it)

long before most others were.

if only a few more in the dodger front office would take notice.

2008-05-19 10:39:07
57.   sporky
Congrats, Jon!
2008-05-19 10:40:05
58.   Sushirabbit
This is probably a bad idea, but I'd love it if you had a DVD with the book that had things like the Joe Ferguson throw, that I just caught by sheer luck yesterday. Things like that and funny stuff like old commercials and the Stilanovich stuff would be awesome to have in one easy to grab place. I suppose the legal constraints would make it a no go, while YouTube and the like just get away with it.

Anyway, that grab and throw is amazing. ANd as much as I love your words, seeing it is believing it so to speak.

2008-05-19 10:40:08
59.   sporky
46 Oh my.
2008-05-19 10:42:05
60.   larry slimfast
56 oh yeah, most importantly, congratulations! it should be a fun project for you and a great read for the rest of the dodger fans.
2008-05-19 10:43:48
61.   Bob Hendley
59 - And we were told that it was SFW!
2008-05-19 10:46:15
62.   fanerman
Congratulations Jon! I can't wait to read that one.
2008-05-19 10:46:48
63.   Bob Timmermann
There's no nudity or foul language. There's not even any blood.

But I guess I will now have to declare 46 NSFW.

2008-05-19 10:48:02
64.   fanerman
61 Yeah. I want my 10 seconds back.
2008-05-19 10:48:11
65.   LogikReader
A startling statistic from last weekend.

Zito is 0-8 so far this season. But did you know...?

If we adjust the Quality Starts rule to include the 5th inning (rule says 6 innings/3 ER), Zito has six quality starts!! Already!

Guess how many Q-starts Derek Lowe has this year? Five, and none since May 1st. Lowe is done.



2008-05-19 10:48:31
66.   Bob Hendley
54 - I went were you probably went, to the team site, but nothing. There are a couple of DTers who follow this very closely, so it likey to come up at some point soon.
2008-05-19 10:51:42
67.   Bob Hendley
63 - The rabbit test might have been a clue.
2008-05-19 10:51:52
68.   cargill06
gurnick is reporting schmidt's fastball topped out at 90, yahoo says 93, either way it's a very encouraging report. the only thing concerning me is that he is not throwing breaking balls, he says because he doesn't have command yet, but speculation last year was he wasn't throwing as many breaking balls becuase it hurt his arm to throw them
2008-05-19 10:56:19
69.   kinbote
Highlight from the past 1000+ posts I just read: Mark Sweeney has fork marks in his back.
2008-05-19 10:57:06
70.   Jacob L
68 I still consider Schmidt to be more mythical than the Minotaur.

63 etal. O.K., once I got over my initial revulsion and feelings of betrayal (my shattered belief that any link that Bob points out is worth a click), I clicked again and read closer. That was pretty amazing.

2008-05-19 10:59:29
71.   cargill06
65 maybe it's just a figment of my imagination, but during lowe's career as a dodger it seems he's always done this. he looks like one of the worst pitchers in baseball for a number of starts than he'll have a number of starts where he looks unhittable, i could easily see him putting together 5 or 6 really good starts in a row
2008-05-19 10:59:40
72.   Bob Timmermann
Bob Timmermann, creating senses of betrayal since 1967.

I was on the up and up the first two years of my life.

2008-05-19 11:02:42
73.   sporky
63 It's amazing that there's no blood.
2008-05-19 11:03:58
74.   Bob Hendley
73 - What amazed me was that there was something to pierce. I don't have anything there but bone.
2008-05-19 11:05:43
75.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Congrats on the Book Deal! It is pretty cool that bloggers are getting interest in that dead medium... ;)

Something I'd suggest, which works into either a larger theme of experience the Dodgers-Giants rivalry or see the Dodgers on the road:

- Go see the Dodgers play a game against the Giants in AT&T Park (or whatever they call it the year you go). Ideally, you want to see the Dodgers both win one and lose one, just so you can see how different the home crowd is towards Dodger fans. In defeat, they are humbled and meek. In victory, they are emboldened and vicious. Sit in the bleachers if you really want to see this in full force.

2008-05-19 11:08:42
76.   fanerman
75 I can vouch for the latter =(. I really need to see the Dodgers win a game at phone company stadium.
2008-05-19 11:14:35
77.   bhsportsguy
Reason 354 on why Bob Timmermann does not attend UCLA Baseball games

So I'm watching the replay of Saturday's game against WSU and its the bottom of the 8th inning, what song do I hear in the background.

Neil Diamond's tribute to JFK's eldest.

What, no Doors?

2008-05-19 11:15:07
78.   bhsportsguy
76 I am 2-0 at the ballpark, 1-1 at Coors Field.
2008-05-19 11:16:37
79.   kinbote
The six last place teams in MLB are the Mariners, Tigers, Yankees, Padres, Brewers, & Nationals.
2008-05-19 11:16:53
80.   LogikReader

I'm 1-0 at Angel Stadium of La Habra!

2008-05-19 11:27:05
81.   regfairfield
65 So he was really good in April, and has had three bad weeks in May.
2008-05-19 11:33:22
82.   Eric Enders
46 has got to be one of the greatest things I've ever seen. It makes Schilling and his bloody sock look like a pansy.
2008-05-19 11:36:30
83.   Brent T
Huge congrats on the book deal, Jon!

75 I was going to post a similar thought - so it's odd that we share a rather uncommon first name.

I've seen the Dodgers almost only in SF (quick back story: born in LA, became Dodgers fan, family moved to SF area after 2nd grade, lived in enemy territority ever since), and it's unique experience.

The book should definitely discuss the unruly crowds of Candlestick (lustily booing Lasorda on his walk from the outfield to the visitor's dugout).

The AT&T park crowd was well behaved from 2000-2006: the team was successful, Bonds was rolling, the beautiful new ballpark was still a novelty.

Enter losing seasons and bad decisions. The ballpark is a given. The high-tech, big-money crowd is leaving. The nasty, frustrated 80's-style Giants fans are coming back. It's something every Dodger fan should experience.

2008-05-19 11:37:43
84.   Bob Timmermann
The photographer was pretty much OK. The javelin just pierced his skin and didn't hit blood vessels or bone or muscle or nerves. He got some stitches.

He was taken to the hospital with part of the javelin still stuck in him. Much of it was sawn off at the field.

It was the photographer's fault for standing in the wrong place. He walked into the javelin landing area.

2008-05-19 11:39:41
85.   Jacob L
I've seen one game at ATT (SBC at the time). Mind you it was one of the most meaningless Dodger/Giant games ever, the day after the Bonds 71st homer and the Giants elimination. Dodgers did win, though. Anyway, I didn't find it to be a particular, singular experience as a Dodger fan. It was just a game at a nice ballpark.

Now, the Stick was a different story. (I realize we can't recommend it to anyone, unless they're going to wear a Dodger hat to a 49ers game). The bleachers, in particular, were like "Lord of the Flies." I swear they had pig heads on stakes out there. It was ugly, cold, nasty, and unsafe without fail. Now that's an experience I'd recommend.

2008-05-19 11:42:06
86.   Linkmeister
Congrats and much anticipation about the book deal, Jon.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the Babe Herman triple into a double play ought to be included. So should the defeat of the Giants in 1934, knocking them out of the pennant. That was the year ( Giants manager Bill Terry had said "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" during the winter meetings.

'Course, by rights one should also include Durocher's gesture and comment about Mel Ott and his Giants: "Nice guys finish last," although there's some question about the actual wording of that famous quotation.

2008-05-19 11:45:45
87.   bhsportsguy
85 That was the second game I went to as I did see Park deliver a BP pitch to Bonds for number 71 and 72.

Many people were upset that Bonds did not play on that day, biggest cheer that I recall was for Arnold Palmer who waved to the crowd.

2008-05-19 11:45:51
88.   Daniel Zappala
21 I've never heard Vin Scully call the Sandy Koufax perfect game. Does anyone know where I could get a copy of this, or other legendary games called by Vin? I'm thinking this would be a great thing to listen to in the car while driving on vacations this summer. I could keep the kids busy and teach them about Dodger history at the same time.
2008-05-19 11:47:15
89.   Jon Weisman
88 - The ninth inning is floating around the Internet.
2008-05-19 11:49:25
90.   Linkmeister
Jon's publisher has other baseball books:

including a collection of Jerome Holtzman's writing, which I'm sure Bob will appreciate.

2008-05-19 11:51:44
91.   Linkmeister
88 Here's an mp3 of the ninth inning. I posted a link to it once on my blog; that's why I found it so easily.

2008-05-19 11:53:50
92.   skybluestoday
Do the "Hot 100" have to be strictly related to the ball games?

Or can it also include partisan nuggets of Dodger wisdom -- like going to Philippe's for a double-dip and a 9-cent cup of java before an afternoon game?

2008-05-19 11:56:04
93.   Daniel Zappala
89 - 91 Thanks! Does anyone know where I could get the entire game? Or other great calls? Hasn't anyone put out a CD of the "Greatest Calls by Vin Scully" or something like that?
2008-05-19 11:57:46
94.   Bob Timmermann
The complete (or mostly complete) perfect game was recorded by Dave Smith of Retrosheet off the radio. Or more precisely by his father. He was off on a date that night and the recording contains Dave's dad hoping that he thanks him for remembering to turn on the tape recorder for him.

It was not standard practice then to record entire broadcasts of sporting events. The ninth inning exists because Scully told the KFI engineers back in the studio to record it.

His comments about the time of the game were put in during the broadcast because Scully liked to give a pitcher the recording of the ninth inning and he thought the time of day would help the player remember the events better.

2008-05-19 12:00:30
95.   Eric Enders
93 The mere suggestion of that in a blog post is perhaps enough to get you a subpoena and a visit from some MLB Advanced Media goons seeking to break your kneecaps.
2008-05-19 12:01:54
96.   Bob Timmermann
Fortunately the MLBAM goons also work in tech support, so they would end up breaking the kneecaps of Daniel's neighbors while repeatedly yelling "SILVERLIGHT! SILVERLIGHT!"
2008-05-19 12:05:58
97.   Noel
Please accept my congratulations. It's thrilling to hear that someone I know or feel like I do is getting the opportunity to display his immense talents on a stage other than this blog, which is my all-time favorite. Now I know what I want for Father's Day 2009! I look forward to reading it and perhaps getting you to autograph my copy one day. Good luck.
2008-05-19 12:08:00
98.   Eric Enders
Back in the stone age, you know, when baseball teams actually had their own websites, the Dodgers' site put together by Ben Platt had a terrific collection of old Vin Scully (and Don Drysdale and Jerry Doggett) clips available for listening. Then MLB Advanced Media entered the picture and... well, you know how this story ends.
2008-05-19 12:08:26
99.   Marty
A trip to the Farmer John plant in Vernon should be in order. You can still see the mural but it isn't quite the olfactory experience it was in the 60's (my father worked across the street from there). The Oscar Meyer plant was around the corner but I don't know if it's still there.
2008-05-19 12:09:21
100.   scareduck
93 - yes, there are actually quite a lot of CDs available at, which surprised me.

Stan from Tacoma (a poster here who hasn't surfaced much lately) sent me a tape of some good stuff, including a fight that broke out during a Dodgers-Giants game, IIRC at the Coliseum, called by Vinny. Hilarious stuff, but it's got a lot of noise on it, and I keep meaning to get Helen to do some postproduction on it to clean it up before I release the results to the world. makes it difficult but possible to buy many classic recordings. It's not available from the top-level shop; instead, you have to drill down from the Dodgers home page to Baseball's Best. Or, you could just follow this link:

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-05-19 12:10:14
101.   Daniel Zappala
Sigh. What a travesty. I hope they realize what a gold mine they have, wake up, and put it to better use some day.
2008-05-19 12:12:01
102.   Eric Enders
100 Stan posted earlier in this thread.
2008-05-19 12:12:16
103.   scareduck
98 - that used to be available at, but the domain has since lapsed. You can see what it looked like at*/

2008-05-19 12:14:15
104.   Daniel Zappala
100 They do realize they'd make a lot more money by putting them on iTunes and charging a $1 a game instead of $20 per game?
2008-05-19 12:15:44
105.   old dodger fan
1 Thing Dodger fans should know:
How to get in and out of DS.

4 Things Dodger fans should do:
Post at this site at least once
Watch the Dodgers win the WS (Oh to do it at least 1 more time)
See a Dodger game somewhere besides DS
Go to Spring Training

2008-05-19 12:15:47
106.   underdog
103 And check this out!

2008-05-19 12:16:38
107.   Bob Timmermann
2008-05-19 12:17:40
108.   scareduck
104 - I doubt it. Moreover, I want the CD considering Apple's AAC essentially gives me a license with no transfer, and one that can be eliminated at will, when I change iPods past the maximum of five, etc. DRM is hooey and nothing more than customer control.
2008-05-19 12:17:56
109.   Eric Enders
Vin's call of Hank Aaron's 715th home run is available as a free MP3 download here:

I'd hurry up and download it now before MLBAM shuts it down.

2008-05-19 12:18:07
110.   scareduck
107 - I break out my cross. Begone, vampire!
2008-05-19 12:18:09
111.   Daniel Zappala
I'd forgotten that Kevin Gross threw a no-hitter.
2008-05-19 12:20:42
112.   scareduck
106 - and yet, none of the audio is visible there.
2008-05-19 12:22:11
113.   Bob Timmermann
Those who do not remember Kevin Gross are doomed to relive him in the form of Esteban Loiaza.
2008-05-19 12:23:17
114.   Eric Enders
Does Esteban Loaiza paint? No, I didn't think so.

Maybe Gross is more of a Brett Tomko.

2008-05-19 12:30:31
115.   Jacob L
My brother and I used to say that his name was LP Gross, since that's always how it appeared in the paper.
2008-05-19 12:30:54
116.   Gilberto Reyes
75 Nothing could beat the experience of witnessing a Dodger come-from-behind victory while inside Candelstick park. That way you could see how "vicious" those Giant fans became when they had the lead, and then watch the transition to "humbled and meek" while still very bitter in defeat. I remember one game where the Giant pitcher walked in the go-ahead run late in the game. The fans were absolutely livid at the home plate umpire and one of them threw a foul ball back onto the field, narrowly missing the umpire. I haven't been to the new park in SF but the Candelstick fans were classic. No words could describe the rivalry any better.
2008-05-19 12:38:17
117.   Jon Weisman
116 - It was a balk, not a walk.

This has been good. Most of what's been mentioned I already have on my list, but there are a few things here to add. Getting harder and harder to trim the list.

2008-05-19 12:40:33
118.   underdog
112 Hrm. Can you hear the RAM file linked to here?
(For Jerry Reuss' perfect game)

Btw, as one who attended games at both Candlestick and the new PhoneCoPark, I have a nostalgia for the 'stick that doesn't mean I actually miss going there. As rabid and obnoxious as Giants fans can be now at Dodger-Giant games there, I don't fear for my life as I once did at the 'stick, as a Freshman in college.

2008-05-19 12:43:05
119.   scareduck
113 - but only if, for now, they live in Las Vegas.
2008-05-19 12:45:12
120.   Eric Enders
I tend to think the Candlestick stories are a little overblown. I attended several games there in full Dodger gear and never once remotely feared for my safety. There were some good-natured barbs and maybe one or two not-so-good-natured ones, but it was a lively, entertaining atmosphere. I thought it was great. Too bad the park itself was such a dog.
2008-05-19 12:46:37
121.   scareduck
118 - not a perfect game, but a no-hitter. It was a first-inning Davey Lopes error away from a perfecto, though.

I happen to know because that is one of my favorite regular-season Dodger game of all time, up there with the 2004 division clincher and the 4+1 game.

2008-05-19 12:47:22
122.   Johnson
117 Is it possible to have an addendum at the end simply ticking off (without explanation) Things 101-150 that didn't make the list for full treatment? It's easier to cut something if it's only half-cut.
2008-05-19 12:48:13
123.   Bob Timmermann
It was a Bill Russell error.
2008-05-19 12:50:15
124.   scareduck
123 - just so.
2008-05-19 12:51:38
125.   Physics DR
Hopefully this covers the Dodgers before Los Angeles also? ! ?
2008-05-19 12:55:29
126.   Eric Enders
Just please don't say that the Dodgers started in 1890. It's always bugged me that (for no good reason) the team refuses to recognize the first six years of its existence.
2008-05-19 12:55:54
127.   silverwidow

Besides Bruce, Clayton Kershaw is the prospect fantasy leaguers are waiting for. However, the 20-year-old has averaged right around five innings per start in the minors and still has well below average command. He might be as tough to hit as any pitcher in the league once his chance comes, but his debut could look a lot like Chad Billingsley's in 2006 (3.80 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, 58 walks in 90 IP).

I find this not only poorly researched but also very pessimistic. First, how is 3.19 BB/9 this season "well below average" command? And a big reason why Kershaw is averaging 5 IP per start is because of pitch count/innings restrictions.

As far as the comparison to '06 Billingsley, I don't see it. Chad's walk totals were high at AAA Las Vegas shortly before his call-up, so it was an issue coming in. With the exception of Saturday's start, Kershaw's command has been very good thus far.

2008-05-19 12:56:33
128.   Gilberto Reyes
117 Yes, it must have been a balk called by the home plate umpire. I would love to check out that game on baseball reference if anyone can remember the date.

120 I don't recall anyone Dodger fans fearing for their safety either. I noticed that some of Dodger fans who wore Dodger gear would sometimes get food thrown at them if they were really loud or obnoxious, but it was usually just verbal abuse. I also found the atmosphere extremely lively and entertaining. Candelstick was often brutally cold at night so I tried to attend the day games when travelling up there with the Dodgers.

2008-05-19 12:58:04
129.   underdog
121 Yah, sorry, that's what I meant. The headline there even points out the error! Poor Bill Russell. I remember listening to that one on the radio, too, at the wise old age of 11.

120 Generally it was indeed more paranoia than any real threat, and the atmosphere was memorable, but I did have batteries hurled at me once -- presumably because of my Dodger hat and not because my walkman was dying and someone was trying to be helpful. But in general it was mostly a lot of yelling and some colorful characters and not any real danger. I've seen a few fights between LA and SF fans at the new park, too, generally between two groups of people I would love to see accidentally walk off the platform into McCovey Cove and devoured by sea lions.

2008-05-19 12:59:42
130.   Gilberto Reyes
127 Rotoworld is free and therefore subject to poor research before their posts.
2008-05-19 13:02:20
131.   underdog
And I do consider "possibility of freezing to death" on my list of potential hazards there. My lord that place could be arctic.

I also remember being in college and having two tickets to go see the Dodgers at the 'stick for an early season series, in April, dragging a friend from the dorms who was from Colorado and not a fan of either team but into baseball in general, taking a ridiculous bus ride there, seeing storm clouds come in, have it rain on us as we walked through the edge of that sketchy area outside the park and then have the game rained out. I couldn't believe it rained in April in SF. How cruel! That was a long bus ride back to the dorms, full of surly Giants fans.

2008-05-19 13:02:30
132.   Bob Timmermann
This matter I believe bothers only Eric and I unfortunately.

It's especially unfortunate when denying the Dodgers American Association existence means the franchise cannot state that it is the only franchise to win consecutive pennants in two different leagues.

The Dodgers also won a pennant as a minor league team.

2008-05-19 13:03:38
133.   Eric Stephen
See the Dodgers on the road.

Living in San Diego, I go to see the Dodgers here a lot, and there have been times I've been heckled (I always wear Dodger gear) but it's generally mild-mannered.

My Dodger Road Record
San Diego 7-20 (including clinching the division on 9/30/95)
San Francisco 2-0 (including clinching a playoff spot on 9/30/06)
Colorado 1-0 (Alex Cora had 2 HR and a double off the wall)
Arizona 0-1 (Drove to/from SD same day; I believe Matt Mantei got the save)

I have to look up my ticket stubs when I get home to see the record in Anaheim.

2008-05-19 13:03:48
134.   Eric Enders
Kershaw's career walk rate is 3.89 per nine innings and Billingsley's career minor league rate was 3.73, so I don't think Kershaw has an advantage in that regard. Certainly comparing the two of them is not unreasonable.

Rotoworld only cares about the fantasy baseball implications, so from that perspective, Kershaw's inability to pitch deep into games is highly relevant, even though it's no fault of his own that the Dodgers are limiting his pitch counts.

The one area where I think (or maybe just hope) Kershaw will be different from Billingsley's first year is his ability to miss bats. His K rate is much higher than Chad's was, so I don't think he'll encounter the sudden inability to strike guys out that plagued Billingsley during his rookie year.

2008-05-19 13:05:09
135.   Gilberto Reyes
123 I remember watching that game on TV when I was 15 years old. The last out says that Billy North grounded back to the pitcher. But didn't he actually try to break up the no-hitter by bunting?
2008-05-19 13:11:48
136.   DaDoughboy
Hey all..just wanted to say hello..been a big fan Jon for a long time and finally got the chance to get a log in and share my experience from this Saturdays game: Besides being hotter than any game I can remember being at, I witnessed 3 fights near me ON THE FIELD LEVEL! Can't DS and Anaheim Stadiums make like an 'Actual Baseball Fans Only' Section? Who else would be willing to pay an additional premium to sit in an area where the person next to you might actually enjoy talking/watching baseball and not be a sunburnt belligerent drunk?
2008-05-19 13:14:37
137.   Bob Timmermann
I believe my Dodgers road record is:
Colorado 0-2
St. Louis 1-0
2008-05-19 13:15:08
138.   Bob Timmermann
No, North just hit a little dribbler in front of the mound.
2008-05-19 13:16:18
139.   Brent is a Dodger Fan

Such a thing would be logistically challenging. I don't think such a thing would fit onto a four DVD set, even...

2008-05-19 13:18:09
140.   Marty
I've been to 2 Dodger games at Candlestick in the 70's. I think they lost both times. Both games were day games in perfect weather. I have this memory that they sold beer in the aisles back then, but I think Bob said no California stadium does that. Could it be that it was legal back then, or is my memory it's usual trustworthy self?
2008-05-19 13:18:13
141.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
139 But yes, something Dodger fans should do before they die is certainly listen to many, many games called by Vin. Thinking to the hopefully more distant future, when one won't be able to just turn on the radio and hear his voice, it would be something every Dodger fan in this century will need to try to look back to...
2008-05-19 13:22:17
142.   Bob Timmermann
I've heard conflicting stories about how beer was sold at Candlestick.
2008-05-19 13:23:06
143.   Eric Enders
It would be a nightmare and a half to compile my Dodger road record, which consists of 40-50 games at 15 different ballparks. Suffice to say that they have a losing record, though, and probably by a lot.

One of my games is the same game as one of Bob's losses in Colorado. I'm blaming that one on him though.

2008-05-19 13:26:26
144.   Bob Timmermann
I blame Paul Shuey. Or the Dodgers having to start Wilkin Ruan in center. Or Paul Lo Duca in left field. And Daryle Ward at first.
2008-05-19 13:26:30
145.   Marty
For food related items for the book, you can go to Brooklyn Bagels on Beverly, just west of Alvarado. They have good bagels, plus lots of signed photos of Brooklyn and LA players.

You can also go to Mike's Hockey Burger on Washington and Soto for good food and more Dodger photos. BTW, a hockey burger is a cheeseburger with a hot dog on top. Kind of like a Shack Burger.

2008-05-19 13:30:07
146.   RELX

You should include, if you can, the final weekend of the 1980 season. Three games out, three to play, against first-place Houston. On Friday night, Joe Ferguson hits a home run in the 10th inning to win the game--famously throwing his batting helmet into the stands as he rounds third. Two games out. The following afternoon, Jerry Reuss outduels Nolan Ryan, 2-1. One game out. On Sunday afternoon, the final day of the regular season, after Burt Hooton lasts only one inning, Ron Cey caps a comeback from a 3-0 deficit with a two-run eighth inning homer and Don Sutton, the starting pitcher on Friday, comes in to record the final out. Tied for first place. With all the momentum in our favor, and no doubt in my twelve-year old heart that we are going to win the one game playoff on Monday, Dave Goltz is shelled, and the Dodgers, and young Robert, are crushed 7-1.

For me, this was the most exciting weekend I ever spent as a Dodger's fan.

2008-05-19 13:30:15
147.   Marty
There's also Nick's on Alameda by the new corn field park. I believe that is where Lasorda ate just before his heart attack.

You can also still see the restaurant that was Lasorda's on Fair Oaks in South Pasadena. I think it's called Carmines now.

2008-05-19 13:32:26
148.   Daniel Zappala
I have no idea what my record is for Dodger games, away or home, because I never bothered to keep track of all the games I attended, and there's no way I'd remember it now. I have an extremely poor long-term memory.

On the subject of Candlestick, I can confirm, from many games attended there, that the fans were mostly nasty toward visiting fans. I never had a problem because I never dared to wear Dodger gear, and am not obnoxious when cheering for the visiting team. But I saw plenty to dissuade me. It was much more relaxed if you had decent seats behind home plate, but not fun if you were in any of the cheaper seats.

2008-05-19 13:33:44
149.   Daniel Zappala
Definitely one thing to know, and probably on your list, is how Reggie Jackson stole a World Series by deliberately knocking away the ball with his hip, and getting away with it.
2008-05-19 13:33:55
150.   Xeifrank
Keep in mind that RotoWorld writes and evaluates based on fantasy baseball value, not on actual baseball value. The two are different in many aspects. A pitcher who averages 5 innings, may hurt you in the wins category as he isn't likely to net you too many decisions. In real baseball it might not hurt you, especially when the Taiwanese Tiger is warming up in the bullpen.
vr, Xei
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-05-19 13:34:51
151.   Bob Timmermann
Lasorda's restaurant is indeed Carmine's. And it does a lot of business. Although I'm not sure why.
2008-05-19 13:35:34
152.   Marty
I may try the New Gus' BBQ today.
2008-05-19 13:37:48
153.   Gilberto Reyes
With this being the Dodgers 50th year in LA there has been a lot of Greatest Moments lists. But what does everyone feel was the worst single game for the Dodgers since they moved to LA? I have been following the Dodgers obsessively since 1973, but I can't think of a game that was more devastating to the organization than the one where Joe Morgan's homerun in Candlestick ended the 1982 season.
2008-05-19 13:38:22
154.   Bob Timmermann
The Yankees received payback for that with A-Rod's slap of Arroyo's glove in the 2004 ALCS.
2008-05-19 13:40:20
155.   Bob Timmermann
Older fans would tell you that the end of the 1962 season was far more devastating.

If you say "1962" to some Dodgers fans they react like Steve Martin when he hears "cleaning woman" in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid."

2008-05-19 13:40:40
156.   Xeifrank
153. Yeah that was a bad game. I remember a Jack Clark home run and an Ozzie Smith home run that hurt quite a bit too.
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 13:43:32
157.   Daniel Zappala
Definitely Jack Clark's home run for me.
2008-05-19 13:43:33
158.   bhsportsguy
155 Will you be torn tomorrow as UCLA and Cal sqaure off at noon for 2008 NCAA Women Tennis Championship?

They played twice in Pac-10 conference competition each winning 4-3 on the road.

2008-05-19 13:44:28
159.   Eric Enders
The big comeback game by the Phillies in 1990. That was a nightmare.
2008-05-19 13:46:01
160.   Eric Enders
Also, Brian Freaking Johnson. Who then had the nerve to end his career as a Dodger.
2008-05-19 13:46:43
161.   Gilberto Reyes
146 The sweep of Houston to end the 1980 regular season was incredible. I attended the game on Sunday where Cey hit the HR. I remember him fouling a ball off his foot in the same At Bat which made the HR even more dramatic. We bought tickets to the one game playoff game that day, and returned on Monday to see that horrible game that was never even close.
2008-05-19 13:47:37
162.   Marty
Willie Davis' three errors in one inning in the 1966 Series. That was the hardest thing for me to take as a kid. I felt the Dodgers couldn't possibly lose, and they got swept.
2008-05-19 13:51:14
163.   delias man
Easily Brian Johnson for me. Started following Dodgers in 86, not too much heartbreak in the early days. Nothing like 97 since then.
2008-05-19 13:51:23
164.   dzzrtRatt
I remember all those horribles except 1962, which was the year before I became conscious of baseball. My blood pressure went up just reading them again.

Chan Ho's horrific inning against St. Louis/Fernando Tatis?

2008-05-19 13:52:18
165.   Eric Stephen
The Jack Clark game is probably the toughest Dodger loss for me in my lifetime. I felt like Pedro Guerrero when he slammed his glove in the left field grass as the ball was going out.
2008-05-19 13:53:16
166.   Jacob L
147 I'm sad to report that Nick's is under new (non-cop) management. I believe the food is the same, for now, but the atmosphere is slipping.

I recently discovered the existence (after 80 or so years) of the Eastside Italian Market and Deli. On College west, of the 110, it is probably the single closest eating establishment to Dodger Stadium. And they make some pretty good sandwiches. Not open in the evenings, though.

2008-05-19 13:53:49
167.   bhsportsguy
I think losing the World Series in 1978 was toughest loss I can recall.

Up 2-0 then dropping 4 straight, I wondered if my Dodgers would ever get another oppurtunity, compound that with a down year in 1979 and then anticlimatic loss to the Astros in the playoff in 1980 and the team that I grew up with seemed destined to be a runner up.

I don't think I truly believed the Dodgers could ever win a World Series until Pete and Boomer went deep against Ron Guidry in 1981.

Funny, how its not Piazza who hit the most important home run as a Dodger catcher, it was Steve Yeager in 1981 and Mike Sciocia in 1988 who equally hold that claim.

2008-05-19 13:54:58
168.   Bob Timmermann
I think much of us remember Brian Johnson's homer even though an LA Times columnist claims that Barry Bonds and his pirouette was a bigger deal.

Which goes to show how out of touch he is.

If Zeile or Murray got a run home with the bases loaded, the Giants win the day before would have been forgotten.

2008-05-19 13:55:31
169.   bhsportsguy
166 Greg Brock and I discovered that a Giullianos sandwich from the South Bay survives the trip well if you want to bring it in to the stadium.

Toy Cannon has a sandwich place too that he frequents.

2008-05-19 13:56:46
170.   Bob Timmermann
Marty and I hated the old Nick's with unbridled passion.
2008-05-19 13:57:40
171.   Bob Timmermann
I will not be torn about that.

As the song goes, "We're loyal to the Southland..."

2008-05-19 13:57:49
172.   Jacob L
To me, the bookends of Dodger pain are
1) Reggie in 77. Can we bleeping pitch around him? Or drill him in the back or something? No pain like the first pain.
2) The 92 season. If you insist on a single game, pick any one from the string of riot makeup double headers in August. That season just depressing, and is the flip-side to all of the painful moments with good Dodger teams that were denied.
2008-05-19 13:58:52
173.   Marty
Toy Cannon has a sandwich place too that he frequents. That's Mario's in Glendale. Blows Giullianos out of the water.

170 You mean Gus', right? I like Nick's.

2008-05-19 13:59:32
174.   Jacob L
158 171 Awesome. Lets have a women's tennis brawl.
2008-05-19 14:00:17
175.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry, confused there.
2008-05-19 14:00:19
176.   Disabled List
The game where Barry Bonds did the pirouette. That marked the beginning of a decade of success for the Giants and decline for the Dodgers, according to the Bill Plaschke Theory of Specious Cause and Effect.
2008-05-19 14:00:45
177.   arbfuldodger
0 First of all big congrats to Jon... there is no other person IMO who could write this book concerning the Dodgers and give it the attention and TLC it deserves.

121 This game is one of my all time favorite Dodger games as it was a no-hitter thrown on my birthday against our most hated rivals and the final score if I'm not mistaken was 8-0 which is my lucky number.

2008-05-19 14:01:06
178.   Sagehen
Things to do before you die: Experience a "Mania." Fernandomania. Nomomania. All this talk of Candlestick brings back fond memories of Nomomania ... walking into Candlestick to see all those Japanese fans holding up cards written Japanese, rooting for Nomo.
2008-05-19 14:03:27
179.   Eric Stephen
The Phillies comeback in 1990 was in the pre-internet, pre-televised baseball explosion. I remember being at my cousin's house not being able to watch the game because it was at home and not all games were televised back then.

We would get updates at 0:20 & 0:50 past the hour via Headline News sports (incidentally, this is how I also first heard Shaq signed with the Lakers in 1996), and I remember being shocked that the Dodgers lost their insurmountable lead.

I have no idea why we weren't just listening on radio.

2008-05-19 14:04:01
180.   Eric Enders
You know what, though? 4+1 makes up for every game listed here. It really does.
2008-05-19 14:06:30
181.   Bob Timmermann
Unfortunately, Chan Ho Park didn't make the same immediate impact as Hideo Nomo so there wasn't a Parkmania. And there hasn't been a Kuomania either.

If there had only been a Chenmania.

2008-05-19 14:06:51
182.   Linkmeister
155 Ah, yes. Roebuck, Williams, Alston. I still bear the scars.
2008-05-19 14:07:23
183.   Xeifrank
180. Is that the game that broke GameDay?
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 14:07:44
184.   Gilberto Reyes
These are all "great" bad memories. The ones that still hurt the most for me are the ones that included individual plays with dramatically painful momentum shifts that were ultimately responsible for ruining the season. That is why I would rank them like this...

1. Joe Morgan HR off Forester
2. Reggie Jackson's Illegal Hip Check
3. Jack Clark HR off Niedenfuer

2008-05-19 14:08:22
185.   Xeifrank
181. Yes, there is a GuoMania. You just fail to accept it. :)
Google it.
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 14:09:01
186.   Jon Weisman
It will never be Nomomania to me. It will always be Nomonia.
2008-05-19 14:10:05
187.   Marty
What about Roblesmania?
2008-05-19 14:10:34
188.   Bumsrap
Congrats Jon. Find a way to get Vin being Vin in the book.

The Dodgers have had some very good and exciting players in their history--Snider, Robinson, Wills etc. But there probably exists a core of consciousness that some Dodgers teams have had and others haven't. I am talking about players like Pee Wee Reese, Gil Hodges, and Roy Campanella. Figure out who to include in this category and maybe how they have made the Dodgers better.

2008-05-19 14:10:35
189.   Eric Enders
Nomonia could be the 10th planet. That, or a new prescription drug.
2008-05-19 14:13:41
190.   Eric Enders
We make fun of Oscar Robles, but him getting a hit on a pitch that bounced five feet in front of the plate is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

That, and Alex Cora's 18-pitch at-bat. These small, yet amazing plays will probably be lost to posterity unless someone writes a book titled something like "Legendary exploits of light-hitting Dodger middle infielders of the 2000s."

2008-05-19 14:15:27
191.   Eric Enders
185 The funny thing is, if you Google Guomania like you suggested, you get a pointer toward yet another stillborn Dodger prospect mania:

"Did you mean: guzmania?"

2008-05-19 14:17:12
192.   Eric Stephen
The final weekend of the 1996 still bothers me, even though it really shouldn't. The Padres came into Dodger Stadium 2 games down for the division with 3 to play. Of course the Padres ended up sweeping to win the division. Chris Gwynn's extra inning double on Sunday provided the winning margin, and the game ended with Trevor Hoffman striking out Chad Curtis.

However, the Dodgers actually clinched their playoff spot first. An Expos' loss Friday night guaranteed the Dodgers at least the wild card, and the Padres clinched a spot on Saturday. So Sunday's game was all about playoff seeding rather than the division crown.

Living in San Diego though, I had to take a lot of crap from a lot of people for losing that division, and it still sticks in my craw.

2008-05-19 14:18:39
194.   Eric Stephen
If Manny Parra ever becomes great, there will be Parranoia.
2008-05-19 14:18:53
195.   Marty
Almost anything will stick in a craw. That's why they call it a craw.
2008-05-19 14:19:36
196.   Sagehen
I have a horrid memory imprinted in my brain of Ron Cey, his arm still "splinted" from an earlier beaning that had landed him on the DL, getting drilled in the head during the 1981 World Series. Am I remembering this correctly? There was a quick recovery and an incredibly happy ending, of course, but that moment still gives me chills.
2008-05-19 14:19:40
197.   Gilberto Reyes
167 I think the Scioscia HR in 1988 off Gooden was more shocking than the Gibson HR off Eckersly. All Dodger fans were rooting for Gibby to go deep even though it seemed so improbable because of his injury and who he was facing. Unlike Gibson, Scioscia was never known for his power, and for him to take Gooden deep when the team was behind in the series and really had their backs to the wall was amazing.
2008-05-19 14:19:56
198.   Eric Enders
192 That one always bothered me too. If we'd won that game we would have played the Cardinals instead of the Braves, and maybe we wouldn't have gotten swept out of the playoffs.
2008-05-19 14:22:16
199.   Sagehen
Worst moment in Dodger history? Piazza's trade. It may not be the worst ever trade (DeShields for Martinez didn't feel so bad at the time), but I can't think of another Dodger moment that so made me feel sick to my stomach even a year later.
2008-05-19 14:24:25
200.   Eric Enders
The Piazza trade didn't upset me much at the time because it seemed to be a good baseball trade. Sheffield was every bit the hitter Piazza was, and nobody knew Bonilla and Eisenreich would turn out to be so useless.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-05-19 14:27:51
201.   Jim Hitchcock
Kind of neat to see Mark Grudzielanek's name at the top of the AL BA list.
2008-05-19 14:29:02
202.   Eric Enders
It really is amazing how dramatically and suddenly Bobby Bonilla's career collapsed once he got to the Dodgers. He'd turned in 12 consecutive seasons of at least a 114 OPS+ (including the year of the trade), and then with the Dodgers he puts up an 81.
2008-05-19 14:34:17
203.   Xeifrank
202. Maybe it's the water, because stuff like that is still happening today.
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 14:35:46
204.   DaDoughboy
Was anyone there for the 2001 game when Bonds hit 2 homers off CHP (71 and 72)? Now THAT was an interesting game to be at. 4 1/2 hour game..(30 of which was a lame intergame 'ceremony').. Dodgers go ahead in the top of the 7th and go on to win it..Most bizarrely satisfying game I've ever been to (mostly because it was about 48 degrees with wind chill up in the top left reserve and I was just happy to be alive at the end of it).
2008-05-19 14:37:50
205.   underdog
203 Maybe it's time for the Dodgers to come up with the anti-humidor.
2008-05-19 14:37:53
206.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers also eliminated the Giants from the playoffs with that win.
2008-05-19 14:39:50
207.   Daniel Zappala
202 Shades of Andruw Jones. [shudder]

Speaking of craws, you know what sticks in my craw? That my own 12-year-old son has started forwarding chain mails to me. I'm need to have a talk with him when I get home.

2008-05-19 14:39:55
208.   Eric Stephen
I know we got on a bit of a worst games tangent here, but one of the great moments in Dodger history has to be when Kevin Elster planted the Dodger flag in SF with 3 HR on opening day at Pac Bell Park.
2008-05-19 14:46:23
209.   bhsportsguy
204 Yep, I was there, longest 9-inning game in Dodger history I believe. Over 5 hours.
2008-05-19 14:48:02
210.   Bob Hendley

Bob is also getting an opportunity to display his immense talents on another stage by fielding calls from irate shoppers. That number again is....

2008-05-19 14:48:44
211.   Bob Timmermann
It was a mere 4 hours and 27 minutes.
2008-05-19 14:50:33
212.   Bob Timmermann
Oh my, Lee Marvin just shot Ronald Reagan.

He's going to get in trouble for that.

2008-05-19 14:51:30
213.   Tom Meagher
This is Re: 345 on the last thread.

The WAR projections I was giving include the season to date. They also match up with other projection systems, and whenever I look at players I compare my projection with a weighted average of other projections, and I researched the best algorithm for doing so. It doesn't really matter to me whether you agree with my projections. The question is really about what kind of model is being used in decision-making. I use the tools I use to look at baseball because I've researched them for years and worked on understanding the significance of data.

Kuroda's 1-3 record is essentially meaningless to me. It has nothing to do with the 2.5 WAR I cited. I didn't run a projection on Kuroda's Japanese numbers, but I checked out every projection on him I could access and so far his component numbers have basically matched them. As I said, Kuroda seems like he could reasonably be higher or lower than the 2.5 I gave; it's a mean projection.

You wrote:
"Your statement is otherwise wholly contradictory, as the WAR that is the past is also the product of 'variance', or so you must concede, and for all that you and I know, the past variance is not the true indicator of the talent that is there. In other words, the 'variance' works both ways here."

Well, this is exactly the point: the projection is based on sophisticated models for finding the level of significance in past data. Of course variance works both ways; that is why projections are not about predicting the future but rather about determining our level of confidence. Baseball games are recorded mathematically. Projections are about expressing a player's expected contribution in the units of the game, instead of in subjective terms like "run-producer."

Variance is on both sides of a projection, and that is precisely the reason that a projection is no more than a best estimate given the data available. I think that there are plenty of 'baseball people' who are outstanding talent evaluators and who will never need statistics to do that. But the job of a general manager is fundamentally about correctly attributing value to players, and the evidence is ubiquitous that GM's and other baseball analysts do not know how to properly do this.

You state:
"What you are calling 'variance' I prefer to call the failure of the model to predict the result. Chien Ming Wang isn't otherwise all that variable, though he has falsified the projection models for some years running now. He's falsified the projection models because the models' underlying assumption[s] re K and/or K/9 is/are false."

Yes, variance is the failure of the model to "predict the result." There is a difference between prediction and projection, as I am using them anyway. A prediction describes a world that could emerge - i.e., Cubs over A's in 6. A projection is a best estimate based on the information available, and should be coupled with an understanding of how much variance is around it. I think it is foolish for GM's to make predictions; or at least, the role of prediction is to facilitate planning by elucidating potential scenarios. A projection, however, is a tool for composing your team, assessing its potential and likely range of results, and deciding how much to pay players or exchange for them in trades, etc.

Chien-Ming Wang may have been fouling up some projections, I don't know much about that; my projections haven't been far off on him. You can say that it's all about K's, but really the issue is that projections that don't have batted ball data will suffer with Wang because he is an extreme GB pitcher. (Incidentally, K/9 is not a very good metric since it's basically strikeouts per out; I agree that it's less than ideal, especially for pitchers like Wang.) The lesson isn't that projections are bad but that they can't do any better than their inputs.

Compare Wang's ERA's to his FIP, which is an ERA estimator using only four numbers: K, HR, BB, and IP.
2005: 4.02, 4.20
2006: 3.63, 3.91
2007: 3.70, 3.79
2008: 3.51, 3.26

So if you essentially ignore all of the balls put in play against Wang, you basically still have an accurate estimate of his performance. That doesn't mean that projections should ignore balls in play, but the point is that they are all about determining the appropriate weight of multiple interrelated variables.

I can't tell you this across the board, but the reason that Wang has outdone his projections is almost certainly that his home run rate is excessively small. If you have to regress that for someone with less than 500 IP in the minors and only 2.5 seasons thus far, you won't be able to project what he's done so far. But realistically, I don't think that that's a knock on the projections or their methodology. Wang probably will not be able to keep getting such a low percentage of his outfield flies to be HR; it would be silly to overlook that, just as it would be silly to argue that he cannot possibly keep such a low HR rate.

One more block quote:
"Tom, you wrote:
'Teams with good SP tend to excel because a good SP will have more PA on the mound than a good hitter will have at the plate. This doesn't mean that their contribution isn't basically linear and on the same scale.'
Take line 1. That means that line 2 is false. The other reason why pitching prevails over hitting is that the pitcher gets to decide what and where he throws, and so he can influence the hitter's chance of success. The hitter doesn't have that same power over the pitcher, as he hits what's served up."

I think you are missing the nuance here. Pitchers face a bunch of batters in a row, and depending on their role may face many more or many fewer batters than a typical batter will have PA in a season. Obviously, their respective tasks are radically different. However, extensive research and statistical modeling shows that the batter-pitcher matchup is not dominated by one or the other participant.

Now, I don't think that you can take the normal ways of evaluating pitchers and batters and simply scale them to each other so that the best pitchers and best hitters will be about equivalent. However, both can easily be measured in terms of a linear contribution of runs prevented/produced relative to a theoretical baseline. However you model it, I think you can agree that it is useful to compare pitchers to an average pitcher. I choose to make that comparison in the units of baseball, runs. For pitchers, to generate WAR (or wins above any other baseline - replacement level is just our best estimate of a standard against which to measure players, and as long as the method is rigorous, you can choose any appropriate baseline), you compare how many runs they yield over playing time X to how many runs the replacement pitcher would contribute. The replacement pitcher does not have to be defined as simply one individual pitcher but can rather signify the collectivity of the alternatives. For batters, we just simply give a linear weight to each individual plate appearance, and that weight equals the runs above or below average that that PA contributed. We can change the baseline from average to replacement or anything else. So if we can come up with a theoretical baseline that applies to both pitching and batting/fielding, then comparing their contribution in runs (or wins, which is essentially runs/10 in a league with 4.5 to 5 runs scored per game per team) is not difficult, though it is work.

I don't think your account of the pitcher/batter interaction is very complete. You're referring to a handful of variables as if they were the whole thing. Batters choose which pitches to swing at. Batters get to draw walks and foul off pitches. If you want to change my mind, some data would help.

Another point of confusion may be my use of the term scaling. There are many more top-level position players by WAR than pitchers, because there is a different distribution of talent at the major league level; there are more position players, pitchers are impacted differently by injury, etc. There are many, many differences between pitchers and position players. But they do not invalidate tools like WAR that are designed to put their contributions in the same units. Or at least, if they do, it is for reasons that have not shown themselves in my research and much more analysis would need to be done to establish them.

I hope this helps.

P.S. If I shouldn't be posting lengthy things like this in the DT comments, someone let me know. When I start writing I generally don't stop until I think I've communicated what I wanted to. I hope my old-timer DT cred will let me get away with my occasional indulgence.

2008-05-19 14:55:02
214.   DaDoughboy
208. Chan Ho won that game as well. Hmmm..he pitched Bonds' record ball and won the first game at Pac Bell..ain't he special? I'll answer that myself: Saw him Saturday and he located VERY well..wasn't over-powering but by far the surprise of the season (even more than DeWitt)..
2008-05-19 14:56:49
215.   underdog
It's okay Tom. Appreciate your contributions here, though I hope you won't mind that I've been taking your comments to bed with me at night, and haven't quite gotten through them all. ;-)
2008-05-19 14:57:03
216.   Strike4
For me, one of the recommended top 100 things to cover would be a selection of Jim Murray columns on Dodger topics. Heaven on earth was to attend a live Dodger game, have Vin on the radio, and then read Murray's column about it the next morning. I miss his entertaining insights, humor and sheer joy of the games.
2008-05-19 14:58:52
217.   Ricardo
Congratulations for the book, Jon! Just a question: those 100 things, dodger fans should do and know it at the same time?
2008-05-19 14:59:48
218.   berkowit28
190 (hit on bounce) You need to watch some cricket. ;-)
2008-05-19 15:01:06
219.   scareduck
Tom, you should be writing this sort of stuff in The Fifth Outfielder.
2008-05-19 15:05:15
220.   Jon Weisman
213 - Yep, all cool.
2008-05-19 15:05:48
221.   KG16
205 - I was joking with some one recently that San Diego needed to use a heat lamp on the balls before games to deal with the park effects like Colorado did.

The Dodgers could just play more day games in the summer, Dodger and Angel Stadium don't strike me as much of pitcher's parks when it's 100 degrees outside.

2008-05-19 15:15:13
222.   Jike Spingleton
My all-time record in Dodger road games (though technically, they're all road games having never lived in LA) stands at a sterling 7-14:

3-2 @ Chicago Cubs - Wrigley Field
1-0 @ Colorado - Coors Field
1-2 @ Florida - Dolphin Stadium
0-1 @ Milwaukee - County Stadium
0-2 @ Milwaukee - Miller Park
0-2 @ Minnesota - Metrodome
0-1 @ Oakland - McAfee Coliseum
0-1 @ San Francisco - Candlestick Park
1-0 @ Philadelphia - Veterans Stadium
0-1 @ Philadelphia - Citizens Bank Park
1-2 @ Pittsburgh - PNC Park

The highlight being this game:

2008-05-19 15:16:21
223.   madmac
213 hey Tom, any relation to Sean Meagher
2008-05-19 15:35:18
224.   Tom Meagher
219 - Maybe. We'll see.

223 - Probably not; I don't know who that is.

2008-05-19 15:43:41
225.   heato
How about not getting the number one draft pick in 1994 despite having the worst record in baseball. Dreifort instead of A-Rod was pretty significant.
2008-05-19 15:48:30
226.   dzzrtRatt
216 Here's a very subtle and rare thing for Dodger fans to do: Listen to Vin Scully call a game for fans listening on radio only.

It used to be the norm, before the Dodgers started broadcasting every home and away game that Vin would do lots of innings for radio fans only. Back in the day, the only local TV games were road games. Of those road games, the only sure TV games were games in San Francisco. TV games from other cities were unusual, but they happened. So for all home games and most road games, Vin would do innings 1-3 and 7-9 plus extras. For TV games, he would do the middle innings on radio. Sometimes he would announce the ninth inning and extras as a "simulcast," which he would underscore so radio and TV listeners would understand.

Scully on radio-only almost never happens anymore, but here's when it does: When it's a late-season game with pennant implications that a national network, Fox or ESPN, is covering. That means no local TV. During most of the season, Vin takes those days off, but not, for example, the 2004 clincher against San Francisco. It was Fox for TV, and Vin on the radio.

Vin on the radio, not worried about a TV audience, is Vin at his very best.

2008-05-19 15:49:47
227.   Xeifrank
I had Kuroda at 2.03 WAR pre-season, based on ZIPS projections, with his closest NL West comparables as Maddux, Germano, Haren and Lowe (in that order).
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 15:52:54
228.   silverwidow
Pierre, LF
Ethier, RF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
Kemp, CF
DeWitt, 3B
Maza, SS
Penny, P
2008-05-19 15:56:15
229.   silverwidow
Andruw needs a phantom DL, ASAP.
2008-05-19 15:57:32
230.   Vaudeville Villain
Tom, the posts you have been putting up the last few days are fantastic. Great stuff.
2008-05-19 15:59:23
231.   Bob Timmermann
I thought all the Dodgers needed was Mark Texeira, the Almighty First Baseman.
2008-05-19 15:59:39
232.   Xeifrank
228. Sadly (to the tune of about $37mil) that's probably our best outfield alignment.
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 15:59:56
233.   Bob Hendley
226 - I remember Vinny "broadcasting" a Giants-Cards series in the 1960s during a tight pennant race by recreating the games using info from the ticker tape for us Dodger fans to listen to in the afternoon. He used sound effects. IIRC he complained later that he wasn't sure how to recreate the stunned silence of the Giant fans after a Bob Gibson homer (or was it a grand salami?).
2008-05-19 16:01:05
234.   Howard Fox
who would have ever thought that we would want a lineup with Pierre in and Jones out...
2008-05-19 16:01:27
235.   Doctor
Andruw needs to get straightened out in Vegas.... and Im not talking about the Gold Club.
2008-05-19 16:01:52
236.   Kevin Lewis

Forgive me for no reading the other posts, baby time has pretty much taken up everything.

Why is Hu not playing?

2008-05-19 16:02:33
237.   berkowit28
228 Where'd you find the line-up? I'm not seeing it at ItD (Rawitch), Jackson, nor P-E blogs.
2008-05-19 16:02:39
238.   Eric Enders
Grr, Maza.
Grr, Pierre.

I don't really have the energy to get more upset than that about today's lineup.

2008-05-19 16:04:08
239.   berkowit28
237 Oh, OK, I needed to refresh Jackson.
2008-05-19 16:05:25
240.   Howard Fox
238 as the season is unfolding, not a lot of good choices at present
2008-05-19 16:07:41
241.   Eric Enders
Well, there is at least one better choice than Pierre (Young) and one better choice than Maza (Hu).

The Bronx Banter guys warned us before the season that once you get into Torre's doghouse, there's no getting out. Seems like that's accurate.

2008-05-19 16:10:20
242.   ToyCannon
The 1980 final weekend was simply the greatest non playoff stretch of games ever for me.
The playoff game in 1980 was easily the most disapointing because Goltz crushed us early and we had to hang around for the rest of the game even though our hearts were bleeding out.
For some reasons the home runs by Clark, Smith, and Morgan just don't reasonate with me.
2008-05-19 16:10:29
243.   silverwidow
241 I'm OK with Maza; he'll be a decent utility guy once Furcal returns.
2008-05-19 16:10:31
244.   regfairfield
Last 40ish PA

Jones: .176/.275/.324 (40 PA)
Pierre: .205/.279/.231 (44 PA)
Ethier: .225/.262/.400 (42 PA)
Kemp: .237/.310/.342 (42 PA)

2008-05-19 16:11:13
245.   Kevin Lewis

What did Hu do to Torre?

2008-05-19 16:12:01
246.   Howard Fox
Young is definitely in that doghouse, and Maza is as good as Hu the way he is swinging the bat...

I think our bigger problem is Penny...

2008-05-19 16:14:32
247.   underdog
241 I agree about giving Delwyn Young a chance (as I've said here repeatedly) - why not? But otherwise, I don't see how that line-up is that surprising or bad given options and injuries this week. What I would like to see when Furcal comes back at least, is less Pierre. And LaRoche up, and Maza down. I like Hu's defense better than Maza, and hu doesn't? But I don't think Maza's looked that bad at the plate and Hu hasn't done anything there. Again, I agree on the Pee-Wee front, but otherwise, that's about as good a lineup as we can expect right now given the cards Torre's been dealt and the injuries. Imho.
2008-05-19 16:15:29
248.   Bob Timmermann
I think Torre thought Delwyn Young was actually Delmon Young and he's worried about bat throwing at umpires.
2008-05-19 16:16:26
249.   regfairfield
Luis Maza is a 28 year old AAA player who is useless for all intents and purposes.

Chin-Lung Hu is a top 100 prospect who we need to make a very important decision about sometime in the next five months.

There's no reason to start Maza instead of Hu right now.

2008-05-19 16:19:54
250.   kngoworld

That is absolutely correct.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-05-19 16:21:07
251.   underdog
But do you guys think Hu would be served to go back down to AAA to start full time and work on a few mechanical things re: hitting? Or do you think he's been okay at the plate and just unlucky or pressing? I'm sincerely asking...

I do get a little tired of Torre's "ride the hot hand" thing, that's what gives us all these schizo line-ups. Maza had two hits yesterday so suddenly he's in...

er, what's the opposite of doghouse? Treehouse? Penthouse?

2008-05-19 16:21:22
252.   Xeifrank
249. Can't Hu play every day in AAA. Hu's offense is killing us, even given his slick fielding ability. Only Mark Sweeney has a lower wOBA than Hu. I'm all for giving people a chance, but I'm also all for winning now. :)
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 16:22:03
253.   silverwidow
249 Hu is getting optioned this week, almost certainly. Playing everyday is really what's best for him.
2008-05-19 16:23:01
254.   regfairfield
252 I'd agree with that if the alternative wasn't Luis Maza. This is like calling up Terry Tiffee to play first.
2008-05-19 16:23:52
255.   Xeifrank
254. Furcal will be back shortly and make the point moot. vr, Xei
2008-05-19 16:24:16
256.   Bob Hendley
252 - The combination of Maza and Kent up the middle is not very reassuring, however.
2008-05-19 16:25:18
257.   underdog
255 Never will I be gladder to see that day (hopefully Friday).

254 Shhhh! Or Daniel will want John Lindsay!

2008-05-19 16:25:47
258.   regfairfield
255 I agree, when he comes back, Hu should go down. But when the alternative is a choice between Hu and Maza, you can't justify not using Hu. At the very least, Hu's glove makes up for whatever Maza has on him offensively.
2008-05-19 16:26:13
259.   Dodgers49
236 Why is Hu not playing?

At this stage Hu is practically an automatic out. Even though Maza's throws can barely reach 1st base from shortstop I've grown tired of watching Hu bat. I suspect Hu will be on his was to Las Vegas shortly.

2008-05-19 16:26:35
260.   Eric Enders
I don't have a problem with sending Hu down once Furcal comes back. What I do have a problem with is keeping him on the roster and starting Maza over him, for the reasons Andrew stated in 249 .

Unless you're the type who makes final judgments based on 10 at bats (Maza) or 60 at-bats (Hu), then there's no reason whatsoever to believe that Maza will provide more offense than Hu. And we already know he won't provide more defense.

2008-05-19 16:26:43
261.   scareduck
219 - To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that your posts weren't welcome here, but I do feel they will tend to get lost amidst the volume.
2008-05-19 16:27:28
262.   Howard Fox
254 a couple more errant throws, Loney goes into the Torre doghouse, you may yet see Tiffee...
2008-05-19 16:27:52
263.   underdog
258 I agree with that. I was irked to read Ken Gurnick say yesterday that "Chin-Lung Hu has struggled on offense and defense" - I haven't seen too many struggles on defense, though he certainly hasn't been perfect. But I feel pretty safe with him back there.
2008-05-19 16:28:54
264.   Xeifrank
258. For a couple of games, i surely won't sweat it. I prefer Hu plays too. But I prefer he hits better than a replacement level player at his position too. Sometimes you just need a kick in the rear, and Hu is getting one.
vr, Xei
2008-05-19 16:31:42
265.   underdog
I heard Maza got a bionic arm over the weekend and is now capable of making throws that don't take ten minutes to lollipop over to first base. That's pretty cool.
2008-05-19 16:35:42
266.   Bob Timmermann
The cost of Steve Austin would not cover Esteban Loiaza's salary.

But I'm not adjusting for inflation.

2008-05-19 16:36:00
267.   underdog
This is kinda funny btw, if only for the picture he used at the top for Scott Hairston:
"The Three Teams I Couldn't Care Less About"

2008-05-19 16:37:09
268.   underdog
266 - Would you believe, one slightly used mannequin arm with bendable elbow?

{said in Don Adams voice}

2008-05-19 16:39:58
269.   Eric Stephen
OF playing time distribution in May:

Plate Apps
Pierre 72
Kemp 61
Jones 50
Ethier 42

Starts (including tonight)
Pierre 17 (out of 17 games)*
Kemp 15
Jones 11*
Ethier 10

*includes 1 start at DH

2008-05-19 16:40:34
270.   Bob Timmermann
This leads me to my next question: Why was the new "Bionic Woman" series so incredibly awful?

I barely stayed awake during the first episode.

2008-05-19 16:41:25
271.   Dodgers49
Godwin falls short this time

>> Around the bases: Lucas Mays' three-run home run in the first game of the series is the Suns' only homer in the first four games of the series. ... Brian Akin (1-4) gave up Castillo's game-winning hit to take the loss, but surrendered just one other hit in his two relief innings. ... Suns relief pitchers have the three highest ERAs on the team, led by Zach Hammes (7.62), Rick Asadoorian (7.57) and Tanyon Sturtze (6.91). ... Sunday's crowd put the Suns' average at over 6,000 per game. <<

2008-05-19 16:42:22
272.   scareduck
267 - that's funny, though somebody needs to tell the guy running that site about page margins. Zero is not an acceptable answer.
2008-05-19 16:45:24
273.   CanuckDodger
In the off-season, I said I didn't want Hu in the majors as a utility infielder, which seemed to be a minority opinion on DT when everybody was crying "Anybody But Lucille II!" Hu spent only part of the 2007 season in AAA, and looked like he could still work on part of his offensive game in Vegas. And even if Hu had had nothing more to work on in the minors, a future regular shouldn't be wasting time on any team's bench. When Furcal went down, I think rotting on the bench all April made Hu completely unprepared to step in for Furcal, and even some people on DT are drawing negative inferences about Hu based on what they have seen from him lately, so I worry about Colletti and Torre doing the same. Bottom line: I will be happy to see Hu in Vegas's line-up every day -- as long as it is this year only.

Now as for playing Maza over Hu, as long as they are both here, I have no problem with that. Torre has to see that Maza can play in the majors if Maza is to be the new UT infielder and Hu's ticket has been punched for Vegas anyway. We can't have a UT infielder we are afraid to use. And the ranks of career minor leaguers are where bench players ideally come from anyway, rather than the ranks of over-the-hill PVL's like Lucille II did.

2008-05-19 16:45:34
274.   Jon Weisman
2008-05-19 16:48:02
275.   underdog
270 Tim Goodman, TV critic for the SF Chron today, surmised that much of the blame should go for the bland lead actress, who was easily outshone by the woman playing the "bad bionic woman." That's partially true; another reason may be that it was also just not very good.

271 - My lord those guys are awful. Might be time to move James Adkins back to the bullpen, where he probably belongs anyway.

2008-05-19 16:51:22
276.   Gilberto Reyes
249 Why is Hu not playing? Because they are trying to win. Hu is SLG .189. In 32 games, Hu has managed to get two hits in only one game all season! The "useless" Maza may have no future, but he is hitting .455 and has just as many multiple hit games as Hu after only three starts.
2008-05-19 17:05:40
277.   jasonungar07
yeah keep it up Tom.
2008-05-19 17:22:38
278.   LAbits
35 Only worse thing would be having your son go visit his grandma for the summer, to take a class at the local HS... and for him to meet his first serious girlfriend, and for her to be that kind of girl with that kind of mom. That would be horrible.

I guess I would have called the usher as my time would have been about spoilt by then anyway.

On the subject of 'conduct at the park' my organization is having a night vs. the Indians in the 'all you can eat' pavillion. How's the conduct out there? Is it better than Left Field Pavillion when the Giants are in town (continuous blue streak to outfielders, throwing food & mostly empty beer cups)?

2008-05-22 14:53:14
279.   laughingd2
They should know that for 3 years from 1972 to 1974, when I was 12-14 years old, my friends Evan and Kevin and I used to ride our bikes to Dodger Stadium from Studio City.

Out Riverside Drive, out past the zoo and the back side of Griffith Park, and then up Stadium Way, about 15 miles each way. A beautiful ride once you got to the zoo.

Then we'd leave our bikes with the guys at the Union 76 station, knowing they were safe - no locks. Always bleacher seats - this was a year or so before the fights started up and they banned beer out there. We'd check in on Frances Friedman and her pals, and always keep score.

And then the ride back would start with the world's greatest downhill ride: 2 miles straight down Stadium Way!

I'm not sure parents would let their kids make that ride anymore, and truth be told, we did get mugged after the game one time, after staying too late getting autographs (on Old-Timers day, of all things!). They took our yearbooks, signed balls and cards, but they didn't hurt us, and it didn't stop us from coming back on our bikes the next Sunday game.

So one of the 100 things a Dodger fan should do is ride his or her bike to the game, assuming there's a safe place to leave your bike these days.
