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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-21

---Logopened Thu Aug 21 00:00:08 2008
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02:31<Celestar>good morning
02:32*Celestar resumes coding cargodest
02:34*ben_goodger needs caffeine
02:35<Forked>coffee good!
02:35*Forked offers Celestar a cup or fifty
02:36*ben_goodger notes that it was ben_goodger, not Celestar, who said he needed caffeine; and then goes to the shop to buy two litres of pepsi max
02:36<Forked>Celestar is coding features everybody wants :)
02:37<ben_goodger>well, I am a member of the group "everybody" and I don't want cargodest :P
02:38<Forked>always one there is
02:39<Forked>go get your caffeine )
02:41<ben_goodger>the shop opens in twenty minutes
02:46<Forked>got to love this irssi theme:
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02:48<Celestar>Forked: the feature is basically coded.
02:48<Celestar>Forked: I need a full scale network test
02:48<Forked>note to self: install linux on the laptop
02:49*Celestar is just on a linux laptop
02:49<Celestar>like most of the time :P
02:51<Forked>vista at work :\ .. xp at home due to some games, linux on the server (but it has no console).. xp on the laptop - because I've been lazy and never really use it
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02:53<Celestar>how can one work with vista?
02:53<Celestar>I mean you can do work with XP, but with vista?
02:53<Forked>it's actually not bad once you turn off all the crap
02:53<Forked>helps having local admin rights
02:53<Celestar>admin rights are EVIL
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02:55<Forked>biggest flaw in windows is that you need it to do anything at all
02:56<Celestar>flaw? idocy more like :P
02:57<Celestar>my almost-sister-in-law runs TeX on Vista, and vista bluescreens every 5-10 minutes using it. With Word, it takes about 45 minutes between bluescreens.
02:57<Celestar>when you run a Suse life CD for 36 hours straight, the system is rock solid :S
02:57<Forked>only bluescreens I've had the recent years have been because of hardware
02:58<Forked>and hardware (harddrive) crashed my linuxbox as well :) reminds me, need to return that disk.. been sitting on my desk at work for several days now
02:58<Celestar>I thought so too, hence my LiveCD test
03:00<Forked>osX has it easy compared to windows though.. "I only need to run on a specified set of configurations that my creator has put together. Haha that poor windows git needs to be able to run on just about any fucked up configuration it's user has put together without having a clue" :p
03:00<Forked>then again linux does the same as windows.. and does it well. Mostly because of good drivers I guess
03:03<@peter1138>Well, "99% of hardware doesn't have drivers for linux"
03:04<@peter1138>Hmm, I need to figure out how to apply offsets.
03:04<Forked>peter1138: and here I thought it was mostly wireless cards
03:04<@peter1138>Well, not how, but the best way.
03:04<@peter1138>99% of modems, webcams and wifi cards, possibly.
03:05<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder if I won the lottery...
03:06<@peter1138>Got one number :o
03:08<Celestar>/home/vici/openttd-cargodest/src/routing.cpp:216: error: cannot declare member function ‘static void RoutingBase_t::GetDestinationsForCargos(const Vehicle*, std::vector<std::map<short unsigned int, unsigned int, std::less<short unsigned int>, std::allocator<std::pair<const short unsigned int, unsigned int> > >, std::allocator<std::map<short unsigned int, unsigned int, std::less<short unsigned int>, std::allocator<std::pair<const short unsigned int, un
03:10<Noldo>maybe it's that
03:11<Celestar>er ..
03:11<Celestar>I shouldn'T copypaste too much
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03:16<@peter1138>Hmm, there are two offsets, really.
03:17<@peter1138>Hmm, but the new rail drawing method complicates it somewhat.
03:25<Celestar>non-trains don't have a scrollbar in their vehicle details window
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03:42<Celestar>planetmaker: you there?
03:44-!-Amixbook [] has joined #openttd
03:45*Celestar wants minimap-zoom
03:47<Celestar>especially for cargodest that will be extremely helpful
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03:54<CommanderZ>there was patch for it somewhere
03:54<@Rubidium>ah broken one you mean
03:55<Celestar>yeah quite
03:55<Celestar>I'll work on that later on
03:56<Celestar>hm ...
03:56<Celestar>We need another full scale network test methinks
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04:13<@peter1138>Yay, home PC left on today :D
04:14<Celestar>hehe :)
04:14<Celestar>but I get a connection refused anyway?
04:14<@peter1138>That doesn't mean that hg serve is running...
04:15<@peter1138>It is now, but I don't think there's anything to pull.
04:15<Celestar>nope ;)(
04:16<Celestar> WTF
04:16<Celestar>but this didn't cause desyncs in temperate, hopefully?
04:18<@peter1138>More WTF: spritenum was already saved. Now it's saved twice?
04:20<@peter1138>Hmm, actually, this code makes no sense :)
04:20<Noldo>BubbleTick is about some graphical effect in the toyland?
04:20<Celestar>Noldo: apparently
04:21<Celestar>maybe it's misused for something else?
04:21<Noldo>I really don'y get why those need to be in sync
04:21<@peter1138>Wow, the common vehicle include stuff is really messy.
04:21<@peter1138>But it's not included for effect vehicles, so it wasn't saved.
04:22<@peter1138>Noldo, they use vehicle slots.
04:23<Celestar>peter1138: but it doesn't have anything to do with non-toyland desyncs, right?
04:23<@peter1138>Shouldn't do, unless it's abused elsewhere.
04:23<Noldo>what is the benefit of using interactive random?
04:23<@peter1138>It doesn't affect Random()'s seed.
04:24<Noldo>so calling it twice gives that same result?
04:25<@peter1138>It has its own seed. It's mean for client-side randomness.
04:28<Celestar>hm ..
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04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14120 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-08-21 10:46:06
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 33 fixed by tucalipe (33)
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 11 changed by Hadez (12)
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 fixed by habell (4)
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: estonian - 25 fixed, 111 changed by kristjans (135), vermon (1)
04:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: french - 3 fixed, 8 changed by glx (9), belugas (2)
04:48<CommanderZ>CIA is something reporting changes on SVN?
04:54<Celestar>@seen roujin
04:54<@DorpsGek>Celestar: roujin was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 10 hours, 28 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Roujin> is he thinking at all?
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05:05<Celestar>peter1138: you got a wiki login, right?
05:06<Celestar>peter1138: when you post something, do you get those nasty "guess-the-letters" images as well?
05:06<@peter1138>Not when I'm logged in.
05:06<Celestar>who gives me a login?
05:06<@Rubidium>Celestar: you do?
05:06<@Rubidium>you go to
05:06<@peter1138>You create one.
05:06<@Rubidium>take a look in the right top corner
05:07<Celestar>Rubidium: yes, when there's an external link ANYWHERE in the page (even outside the edited part)
05:07<@Rubidium>Celestar: any pageedit of someone who's not logged in requires the guess-the-letters thingy
05:08<Celestar>ah (=
05:08<Celestar>I do _HAVE_ an account
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05:11*peter1138 ponders supporting snowy/desert tiles by using varaction support
05:11<@peter1138>Currently I'm calling the resolver for every tile, and performance seems okay.
05:12<@peter1138>(every rail tile)
05:12<@peter1138>(But that's a debug build on my Q6600)
05:14<Celestar>how many calls / second
05:19<Celestar>ImageMagick just rocks when you wanna perform repeated actions on images (=
05:23<@peter1138>Phantasm, no.
05:23<@peter1138>I don't know how many calls / second.
05:24<@peter1138>I think it should be okay, as we already can handle lots of calls for stations, industries, houses, and of course vehicles.
05:24<Celestar>peter1138: just run the game for n seconds and ask the profiler how many calls it did? (=
05:24<@peter1138>Just didn't bother yet :)
05:24<@peter1138>Ultimately, we can cache the calls, but that removes some flexibility.
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05:30<Brianetta>You know, sometimes I think that OpenTTDcoop is help in far too high regard.
05:31<@peter1138>They seem a little elitist ;)
05:31<CommanderZ>someone has to be :)
05:33<Brianetta>It's not that
05:33<Brianetta>It's that people crowd onto regular OpenTTD communications channels (like this, and the forum) using openttdcoop jargon and demanding to know how to shoe-horn PBS into mainlines and load balancers, etc
05:34<Brianetta>Case in point:
05:34<Brianetta>That's on the wrong wiki, as far as I can tell
05:35<Brianetta>Leading to stuff like:
05:36<@peter1138>Ah ha...
05:37<@peter1138>See, I liked playing coop with Sacro...
05:37<Brianetta>He's an admin on my server (:
05:37<@peter1138>We just built with none of the rules and jargon and planning that openttdcoop uses.
05:37<@peter1138>Ended up with a much more 'natural' layout ;)
05:37<Brianetta>I prefer a more natural look
05:38<@peter1138>It got a bit busy in one area as there was a maxed out forest...
05:38<CommanderZ>I prefer the maglev insanity :) OTTDC has learned me a lot
05:38<@peter1138>But not the use of the word "taught" obviously.
05:39*peter1138 shudders at signal-every-other-tile layouts.
05:40<Brianetta>Some of openttdcoop's junctions make trains move further than some of my entire routes (:
05:40<Celestar>er ...
05:40<Celestar>er ...
05:41<Celestar>can anyone reach the wiki?
05:41<Celestar>I think I just crashed it :P
05:41<Brianetta>Celestar: I could two minutes ago. Now I can't. Well done.#
05:41<CommanderZ>nope, it is completely dead :)
05:41<Celestar>I tried to upload a file :P
05:42<Celestar>apparently, it didn't like the file :P
05:42<@Rubidium>or... hungary got disconnected again
05:42<@Rubidium>happens actually quite often
05:43<Ammler>yep, then it is not just me :-)
05:44<@Rubidium>and it's connected again
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05:48<Ammler>[11:34] <Brianetta> <-- don't think, that would belong to coop, except the station maybe...
05:49<Ammler>the quadrupel layout wouldn't work...
05:50<Brianetta>Ammler: The station, and its references to load balancers, is like a huge #openttdcoop signature.
05:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14121 /trunk/Makefile.bundle:
05:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: bundle_exe didn't make the output directory, so it failed if you didn't do bundle_zip first.
05:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: another inconsistency between the "output" of bundle_exe and bundle_[zip|gzip|bzip2|<etc>].
05:51<Ammler>yep, indeed, the stion looks nice.
05:52<Ammler>station ^
05:54<Ammler>you need also to differ betwenn coop games with a lot trains (1k) or coop games for eyecandy
05:54<Ammler>our wiki is mostly based on the 1. type :-)
05:54<Brianetta><Ammler> yep, indeed, the stion looks nice.
05:54<Brianetta>different tastes, clearly (:
05:55<Brianetta>Rubidium: Do all these Makefile changes get backported?
05:56<@Rubidium>yes, that's likely
05:56<@Rubidium>but most of the bundle stuff is already in 0.6
05:56<Ammler>Brianetta: nice for the "1. type" :-)
05:57<@Rubidium>the only "new" thing is making making the installer easier
05:57<Celestar>hm .. canals don't flood?
05:58<Ammler>Celestar: in scenario editor with ctrl, afaik...
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05:58<Celestar>and you cannot place docks on canals?
05:58<@Rubidium>Celestar: you can
05:58<@peter1138>You need to raise a tile near it, so it is built on a slope.
05:58<@Rubidium>just need to do it like you do it one seas too
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06:05<Brianetta>I made a gross presumption
06:06<Brianetta>I assumed your permission to redistribute your Suburban Renewal Set
06:07<Pikka>how dastardly and presumptuous!
06:07*Rubidium ponders telling the daily sun or whatever other tabloid
06:07<Brianetta>Do you mind?
06:07<Pikka>no, not at all
06:07<Brianetta>'cause I'll pull them and admit my shame if you do (:
06:08<Brianetta>Celestar: Ooh!
06:08<Celestar>Brianetta: ?
06:08<Kloopy>Celestar: Are you able to view other companies route map?
06:08<Brianetta>Celestar: What you could do, and this would be totally excellent, is output a dump of that so we can write a tool to make Harry Beck style network maps
06:09<Brianetta>Is it just me, or is Poland rather damp?
06:10<Celestar>Kloopy: no.
06:10<Celestar>Brianetta: we have that in console already
06:10<Celestar>Brianetta: just in *very* raw data
06:10<Brianetta>beckerize < celestars_patch.dump > tubemap.svg
06:11<Kloopy>Celestar: By design or just not done it?
06:11<Celestar>Kloopy: by design
06:11<Kloopy>ok :)
06:11<Brianetta>But they could share their SVG map with you (:
06:11<Celestar>Kloopy: the spectator can see everything ... if it didn't crash :P
06:11<Brianetta>This would be like you taking a look in their station
06:11<@peter1138>Should spectators be able to see everything?
06:11<Brianetta>They could be spies
06:12<Kloopy>But you can view all the train orders for other players, can't you?
06:13<Celestar>peter1138: what not ..
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06:14<Celestar>Brianetta: what do you need for those routemaps?
06:14<Celestar>Brianetta: you can easily dump all the vertices and edges via console
06:16<Brianetta>Celestar: Not sure. Have to look up the SVG specs, see what can be done.
06:17<Brianetta>It would be a crowning achievement, though, wouldn't it? (:
06:18<Celestar>only thing that might miss is the position of the vertices
06:18<Celestar>but this is easy to obtain
06:19<Brianetta>Actual positions don't have to be accurate
06:19<Celestar>well, but if they are simply not there ..
06:20<Brianetta>Then the route map would be entirely logical
06:20<Brianetta>Who'd have thought that North Acton was further north than Edgware Road?
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06:27<Brianetta>Somebody's written a paper on the subject
06:27<Brianetta>Bilingual en-de
06:27<Brianetta>Well, for two whole pages...
06:28<@peter1138>That gif is so blurry I can hardly read it.
06:28<Celestar> <= comments for this section?
06:28<Brianetta>peter1138: That gif is only indicative of the relationship between Beck's map and geography
06:29<@peter1138>I'm looking for edgware road on it :)
06:29<@peter1138>I can see north acton
06:29<Brianetta>It's the triple-blobwhere pink, green and yellow meet
06:29<Brianetta>and brown
06:30<Brianetta>I happen to have a Tube map on my monitor
06:30<@peter1138>And not on the Beck map :)
06:30<Brianetta>Actually, I'm misleading you
06:30<Brianetta>That blob's Paddington
06:30<Brianetta>I was misled, because on the Tube map it's two blobs
06:30<Brianetta>Paddington Brown isn't Paddingotn Yellow Green Pink
06:31<Brianetta>or something
06:31<Brianetta>One of them's elsewhere
06:31<Brianetta>like, clear across the station
06:31*Brianetta consults mini-map
06:31<Brianetta>Pink's separate
06:32<Celestar>Paddington ...
06:32<planetmaker>[10:08] <Celestar> [09:42:04] planetmaker: you there? <--- I am now :)
06:32<Celestar>that's where the dreadful Heathrow Express ends :S
06:32<Celestar>planetmaker: when could we conduct another full-scale network test? We've done some cooperative testing a few days ago.
06:33<planetmaker>Celestar: in principle everytime. The dev server is currently not running anything
06:34<planetmaker>myself, I'm quite busy the next few weeks, but setting up a game and compiling doesn't take ages :)
06:34<Celestar>Noldo: I find it dreadful. Expensive, hot, uncomfortable, and late every time I use it. Still better than Picadilly however.
06:34*Celestar notices that he finds *everything* connected to Heathrow dreadful
06:35<Celestar>haven't been to T5 though
06:35<Celestar>planetmaker: so all we need is players :P
06:35<planetmaker>yeah :)
06:36<Noldo>you have the binary?
06:36<planetmaker>That should be feasable... the dev server isn't as busy as the public server - but we should get some people together to have a decent game running
06:36<Celestar>Noldo: what platform?
06:36<Noldo>linux or windows
06:36<Celestar>planetmaker: we'd need to set up binaries for W32, l32 and l64 I think. Maybe MacOS
06:36<planetmaker>Myself I don't have any binary so far...
06:37<planetmaker>definitely MacOS. Or I cannot play :P
06:37<Noldo>how far is the new dedicatec server?
06:37<planetmaker>nor Osai, not sure about dih.
06:38<planetmaker>do I need hg in order to obtain the source or will there be another possibility, Celestar ?
06:40<Celestar>planetmaker: I'll possibly make a tar.bz2 if need be
06:40<planetmaker>Celestar: that'd help me a lot, saving me the need to install both, booth and hg :)
06:41<Celestar>planetmaker: the tar.bz2 will possibly not contain boost (because I currently expect boost to be in the system installation)
06:41<planetmaker>oh, ok
06:41<Celestar>meh. I wish I know which boost files I need :S
06:42<Celestar>show_me_header_dependencies_of routing_classes.h
06:42<Celestar>I need such a function :S
06:42<Noldo>make a cpp that has nothing but include that and the try to compile
06:44<Noldo>gcc -MM gives the ones with "" but not the ones with <> it seems
06:45<planetmaker>oh, well, I guess I can istall it...
06:45<planetmaker>not sure on the server, though.
06:45<planetmaker>but the binary got there last time, so should work this time ,too :)
06:48<Celestar>wc -l routing.deps
06:48<Celestar>455 routing.deps
06:49<planetmaker>so, when do you want that, Celestar? We could setup the server maybe tonight?
06:49<Celestar>sounds good
06:49<Celestar>grep boost routing.deps | wc -l
06:49<Celestar>sounds bad
06:50<Brianetta>My donation to the fundraiser finally cleared
06:50<Celestar>Rubidium: we have 284 boost includes in cargodest :S
06:51<planetmaker>but maybe it's repetitive calls of the same. So...
06:52<planetmaker>actually interesting is the number of unique calls to the library - e.g. different things you use.
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06:54<Celestar>planetmaker: 284 individual files
06:55<Celestar>find /usr/include/boost/ | wc -l
06:55<planetmaker>sounds like doubling the source size of OpenTTD :)
06:55<Celestar>let's see
06:55<Celestar> :P
06:56<Celestar>planetmaker: 44061 additional lines :P
06:57<Celestar>planetmaker: however, routing.cpp has 120000 lines worth of include files altogether :P
06:58<planetmaker>:) wow, you really added quite a bit :) How much of that is yours?
06:58<Celestar>er ... a handful about
06:59<Celestar>everything else is system or openttd includes :P
06:59<Celestar>openttd.cpp has 60000 lines worth of includes
07:02<Celestar>openttd.cpp largest OVERALL include file is strings.h
07:02<Celestar>even larger than in stl includes
07:03<planetmaker>:) yeah. Strings are a nuisance to deal with...
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07:03<@peter1138>It grew a bit when I changed it from an enum to static const identifiers...
07:04<@peter1138>Technically all those are variables which break the coding style rules ;)
07:04<Celestar>why static anyway :P
07:05<@peter1138>I can't remember why :p
07:05<Celestar>static globals is deprecated in C++ :P
07:06<Amixbook>rollercoaster subway
07:07<Amixbook>its in norwegian
07:07<Amixbook>but hey... its interesting
07:07<CommanderZ>is or will be
07:08<Amixbook>if its japaneese made, it will come out
07:08<Amixbook>they are building a test track now
07:08<Amixbook>will be interesting to see how it works
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07:17<Celestar>planetmaker: but actually I could use some single-player testers as well.
07:17<Celestar>and new input/ideas
07:18<Sacro>Celestar: testing what?
07:18<Celestar>and someone who helps me with the wiki
07:18<planetmaker>Celestar: what's the difference between single player test and MP test wrt quality of test :) ?
07:18<Celestar>Sacro: cargodest
07:18<Sacro>i can wikiedit
07:18<Celestar>planetmaker: none. but SP test requires, well, only one player
07:18*planetmaker nearly exclusively plays MP :)
07:19<Celestar>Sacro: did you playtest cargodest?
07:19<Sacro>Celestar: not yet, not got hg
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07:20<planetmaker>Celestar: I guess, the test should be w/o newgrf, right?
07:20<Celestar>planetmaker: dunno, honestly.
07:20<Celestar>planetmaker: if you have a set of STABLE newgrfs, why not ..
07:20<@peter1138>Probably just in case...
07:20<planetmaker>point is: we get quite some desyncs recently on our PS...
07:20<planetmaker>and I don't know which grf might be responsible
07:20<CommanderZ>i could do some SP playtesting if you provide me win32 exe
07:20<Sacro>i'd like to test it using Brianetta's Standard pack
07:21<Celestar>CommanderZ: I have no win here, and dunno how to crosscompile for windows
07:22<Brianetta>I get desyncs
07:22<planetmaker>Brianetta: on your server, too?
07:22<Brianetta>The random one, I suspect grvts
07:22<Brianetta>the waypoint one, I suspect a good old-fashioned bug
07:22<Brianetta>There's definitely a tram bug
07:22<Celestar>what about using only DBSetXL and a simple tram set?
07:23<Brianetta>teleporting looping one-tile-bound trams
07:23<Sacro>eugh DBSetXL
07:23<Brianetta>eugh BDSetXL
07:23<Celestar>what don't you like about it?
07:24<Brianetta>It's just not British
07:24<Sacro>it's not very British
07:24<Brianetta>The trains don't have yellow ends
07:24<@peter1138>The artwork is not particularly impressive on it either.
07:24<Sacro>*All* trains should have yellow ends
07:24<Brianetta>Without yellow ends, they could hit all sorts of things
07:24<Brianetta>trees, people
07:24<Brianetta>anything on th eline
07:25<Sacro>but the yellow distinguishes it
07:25<Brianetta>Well *I* don't know what yellow ends are for
07:25<planetmaker>It's nice IMO. And prolly one of the most tested, too.
07:25<Brianetta>but trains aren't trains without them
07:25*Celestar goes hunting some food
07:25<Brianetta>unless they're steamers, for some reason
07:25<Brianetta>but steamers have a red buffer
07:26<Brianetta>and tubes have red ends
07:26<Brianetta>thank goodness nobody thought purple was visible
07:26<@peter1138>Or that colour the drain people use...
07:27<Brianetta>I was thinking about the dodginess of having a purple end entering a tunnel
07:27<Sacro>"Take-off and landing are the most dangerous points of any flight, Chris Yates, aviation analyst for Jane's Information Group, told the BBC News website. "
07:27<Sacro>well yes
07:28<Sacro>at some point the plane has to intersect with the ground
07:28<@peter1138>Ah, Dyno-Rod...
07:28<Sacro>peter1138: you can spot them well over a mile away
07:31<Celestar>hm ...
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07:31<Celestar>are there any high-speed trains in UK sets?
07:31<Celestar>Sacro: unless it somehow achieves escape velocity :P
07:32<Celestar>high-speed > 200km/h (>125mph)
07:32<Sacro>Celestar: you mean like the High Speed Train?
07:33<Sacro>nothing >125mph
07:33<Sacro>our lines aren't rated for above that
07:33<Sacro>unless HS2 is, but that will probably only be 140mph
07:33<@peter1138>UKRS has higher speed than that...
07:34<Celestar>Sacro: how fast is the Eurostar now on the UK side?
07:35<Celestar>I wonder whether the Spain really bump their "ICE3" to 350km/h or not :)
07:35<Sacro>Celestar: 125
07:35<Sacro>that's the max line speed
07:35<Pikka>UKRS has 11 trains capable of 125mph or faster
07:36<@peter1138>Sacro, not for the eurostar, apparnetly.
07:36<@peter1138>300km/h, except for tunnels.
07:37<@peter1138>Hmm, it now runs from St Pancras instead of Waterloo, heh...
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07:38<Celestar>what'S the difference between St Pancras and King's Cross?
07:38<@peter1138>A few metres :)
07:39<ln>you mean yards?
07:39<Celestar>isn't that the same station?
07:39<Sacro>peter1138: didn't you know that#?
07:39<@peter1138>Know what?
07:39<Sacro>Celestar: pretty much
07:39<Celestar>HS1 cost FIVE BILLION POUNDS?
07:39<Sacro>they share a tube station
07:39<Sacro>and are next door to each other
07:39<Celestar>you could have covered half the country with maglevs for that price :S
07:39<Sacro>Euston is only a few doors down too
07:39<Brianetta>Celestar: I think making the SVG automatically might be mathematically optimistic.
07:40<@peter1138>Celestar, most of that was probably land cost...
07:41<@peter1138>Brianetta... you've not heard of graphviz?
07:41<Celestar> <= this is a train ;)
07:41<@peter1138>Although I don't think it has a 'Beck' mode :)
07:41<Sacro>graphiz should have a 'Beck' mode
07:41<Ammler>Celestar: I think your wiki page isn't "Stub" anymore ;-)
07:42<Celestar>Ammler: you're possibly right (=
07:42<planetmaker>agreed :)
07:43<planetmaker>Celestar: the dev server is compiling...
07:45<@peter1138>Celestar, so what is "1 = (reserved)" for, anyway? :)
07:47<Celestar>peter1138: I was planning to do something like maximum acceptance
07:48-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
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07:48<Celestar>peter1138: where you could only deliver like N tons of goods to a certain town per month
07:50-!-De_Ghost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:50<planetmaker> <-- we (or rather Amler) got an svn diff, Celestar
07:51<Forked>oh! may I grab that diff to play with when I have time?
07:51<Celestar>5000 lines worth of diff :o
07:51<Brianetta>peter1138: I have not heard of graphviz.
07:51<Celestar>Forked: no you mustn't :P
07:51<Forked>Celestar: but .. :(
07:52<Celestar>Forked: get it now (=
07:52<Sacro>i installed VS2005, but I need to set up the environment for OpenTTD compilation
07:52<planetmaker>Sacro: you'll still need boost library.
07:52<Celestar>peter1138: how did we manage to accumulate 5000 lines worth of diff :P
07:53<Brianetta>That looks like the kind of output
07:53<Celestar>LOL the console command is 200 lines alone
07:54<Celestar>and we've actually made the ifs in economy.cpp readable :P
07:56<planetmaker>Brianetta: looks like the perfect station entry :)
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07:57<Brianetta>planetmaker: Each node would be a starion
07:57<Brianetta>My fingers are stiff today, if anyb'[dy's wondering about all the typos
07:58<Sacro>i think my left leg has died
07:58<planetmaker>Brianetta: rather a join and split before a station... but well :)
07:58<Brianetta>They're routes (:
07:58<Sacro>hopefully welshdragon will be out his meeting soon
07:58<Brianetta>It's like the Underground map
07:58<planetmaker>I know :)
07:58<SpComb>Celestar: the Station Cargo List section is good
07:58<planetmaker>but the graph is also an ideal solution to a non-blocking entry
08:01<ln> "Translators must use the charater set ISO 8859-15, otherwise, some characters will not display correctly in the game."
08:01<Noldo>old info
08:03<ln>no st
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08:04<@peter1138>Brianetta, Celestar, in fact, doesn't Boost's graph library have a graphviz/dot output library?
08:05<Celestar>peter1138: it has
08:06<Celestar>peter1138: write_graphviz(stream, RouteNetwork);
08:09<@peter1138>Brianetta, so... sounds like ebik's using ottdcoop constructions without really understanding why?
08:09<Ammler>hg diff seems not compatible with tourtoise...
08:10<@peter1138>TortoiseSVN is known to be crap with diffs.
08:11<@peter1138>Applying patches is outside of svn's scope. TortoiseSVN does it for convenience, but does it badly.
08:11-!-Yorick [] has joined #openttd
08:11<Ammler>Farden: complained about something like "Index missing"
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08:14-!-Sacro [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
08:14<@peter1138>Yes, because TortoiseSVN incorrectly uses that information, which is actually a comment.
08:16<ln>but yes, i know the misleading information in translating.php cannot be changed.
08:16<Ammler>has someone a winbin here?
08:16-!-De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
08:17<Ammler>cargodest compatible with svn r14098M :-)
08:17<Yorick>working on it based on the latest hg?
08:18<Yorick>btw, the latest hg includes boost
08:19<@peter1138>ln, yeah, I can't remember my login to it :o
08:21-!-Celestar_ [~Jadzia_Da@] has joined #openttd
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08:25<Brianetta>peter1138: I'd say so
08:27<Celestar>say what? I've dropped out
08:28<Brianetta>Celestar: You missed nothing
08:32<Celestar>Brianetta: you know that I'm just trying to obtain your graph, right? :P
08:33<@peter1138>Gah... adding additional methods of track drawing without it looking like a kludge is... gah...
08:33<Brianetta>Celestar: SOmething can be done
08:34<Brianetta>peter1138: Methods?
08:34<@peter1138>Current style and overlay style.
08:34<Brianetta>Can't we just use overlay style across the board?
08:34<@peter1138>Hmm, should rail types be able to have their own style of signals?
08:34<@peter1138>Brianetta, makes it difficult to use the original graphics.
08:35<Brianetta>Are there missing combinations?
08:35<Brianetta>Perhaps it's time to replace the original tracks (:
08:37<Brianetta>Celestar: That's cute
08:38-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
08:38<Celestar>Brianetta: one line of code :P
08:38<Brianetta>Can you combine the pairs of arrows into lines?
08:38<Celestar>I'm planning to
08:39<Brianetta>Unidirectional track is a rarity; just circles, really
08:39<Brianetta>On the Tube, you only see it at Heathrow
08:39<Brianetta>In Glasgow, there's only a loop. The trains have doors on one side only (:
08:40<Celestar>Brianetta: as I said, this is the output generated from a single line of code (=
08:41-!-lobstar_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
08:42<Brianetta>Celestar: That line of code... what is it?
08:42<Celestar>boost::write_graphviz(GraphViz, RouteNetwork);
08:43<Celestar>oh I need another line to construct the "GraphViz" variable :P
08:45-!-De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
08:50<@peter1138>Need some way of mapping the IDs to names ;)
08:51<@peter1138>And then forcing the graphviz people to implement a 'Beck' mode...
08:52<@peter1138>I guess 2-37-38-39-41 is non-shared orders?
08:55<Celestar>Brianetta: reload file
08:55<Celestar>peter1138: peter1138 mapping the IDs to names is easy, but I need to store the name in the vertex
08:55<Celestar>peter1138: there are other ways, but they take more time (=
08:55<@peter1138>Unless you product the graphviz output manually...
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08:56<Brianetta>Celestar: It's good, I think. Can you differentiate between routes?
08:56<@peter1138>Interesting that 48-12 takes the long way around :)
08:56<Brianetta>Node 2 is clearly an important station
08:57<Brianetta>but where does 0 -> 2 -> continue to without a change?
08:57<@peter1138>Problem is the routing graph does not contain that information.
08:58<Brianetta>It has a very hierarchical look
08:58<@peter1138>I guess it's possible by doing it manually and parsing the order lists as well.
08:58<Brianetta>What's with node 33? Not connected to anything at all?
08:58<@peter1138>On the other hand, if you're parsing order lists, you don't need the routing graph at all :)
08:59<Brianetta>Order lists might be better, for an effective "tube map"
09:00<Celestar>Brianetta: differentiate in what way?
09:00<Brianetta>Celestar: Which stations are on the District Line?
09:01<Celestar>Brianetta: ENO_UNDERSTAND
09:01<Brianetta>Celestar: The stations are on lines
09:01<Brianetta>I hope
09:02<Celestar>kind of
09:02<Celestar>the routing system doesn't know the concept of "lines"
09:02<Celestar>Brianetta: node 33 is not connected.
09:02<Brianetta>but it knows changes?
09:03<Brianetta>Every time you need to chang evehicle, you're changing line
09:03<Celestar>Brianetta: it knows changes, I doesn't know about "staying on board"
09:03<Brianetta>but it does know where to get off.
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09:04<Celestar>Brianetta: yes, you change the line at EVERY station
09:04<Brianetta>this isn't going to be very easy
09:05<Celestar>Brianetta: when you parse the order lists, then it works
09:05<Brianetta>yeah, peter1138 was saying
09:05<Brianetta>The route map basically names every station you go through
09:06<Celestar>summin like that, yeah
09:06<Celestar>we COULD implement the concept of lines without much hassle, but it would be only for the output
09:07<Brianetta>I don't want to complicate it needlessly
09:07<Brianetta>I'd rather see it in trunk (:
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09:08<Celestar>it's not complicated
09:08<Celestar>it's just some information only for a graphviz output
09:08<Celestar>do we want that
09:09<Brianetta>If it makes something that make people go wow
09:09<Celestar>I'll keep this in mind (=
09:10<Brianetta>autopilot automatic route mapping?
09:10<Brianetta>Could update the web page with passenger maps
09:12<Celestar>Brianetta: yeah
09:13<Celestar>Brianetta: the thing is, I can add the information where a line continues in two minutes. But there's no COTS tool to parse that data. At least nothing I know of
09:14-!-fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
09:16<Celestar>Brianetta: peter1138: <= better?
09:16*dih hugs Belugas
09:17<Brianetta>oh that's cute
09:17<Yorick>cute :)
09:17<Celestar>but that's about 12 lines :P
09:17<Brianetta>It's worth it
09:17<Yorick>sure it is
09:18<Brianetta>Combined arrows too?
09:18<Celestar>Brianetta: that's one sed over the file
09:18<@Belugas>i wonder what i did to deserve so much luv from dih...
09:18*Belugas hugs dih too
09:18<Celestar>Brianetta: but there are several unidirectional routes
09:18<Yorick>I think it is a long-time-no-see hug
09:18<Brianetta>Celestar: Can't you parse for pairs?
09:19<dih>no - it's just a hug-a-friend-hug
09:19<Celestar>Brianetta: I can. somehow. dot/graphviz can't :P
09:19<Brianetta>So you either have arrows or lines?
09:19<Celestar>it can do directed graphs or undirected graphs
09:19<Brianetta>Noth a mixture?
09:19<@peter1138>It can
09:19<Celestar>peter1138: it can?
09:20*Celestar stares at the manpage some more
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09:20<Brianetta>dih: The h is like the one in your name
09:20<dih>thou hath a thypoth
09:20<dih>it's not - it's from dihedral (2 letter nicks suck)
09:20<dih>sorry ln
09:20<Brianetta>I've been typo-ing all day
09:20<@peter1138>Hm, maybe not.
09:20<Brianetta>I have stiff fingers
09:21<@peter1138>Undirected looks nicer, I think.
09:21<Brianetta>Can you get graphviz to put the paths inthe same place?
09:21<Brianetta>Then you'd end up with a double-headed arrow
09:22<Celestar>seen it
09:22<Celestar>oh this is going to be a bit more of a challenge (=
09:24-!-Belugas is now known as Guest2810
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09:24-!-Guest2810 was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [You know why...]
09:26-!-LilDood [] has quit [Quit: Life without danger is a waste of oxygen]
09:32*Celestar sighs
09:33*Yorick gives celestar for all the good work he has done
09:33*peter1138 ponders railtype introduction and obsolecense dates.
09:34<Yorick>railtype introduction should come with vehicle introduction
09:34-!-De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:34<Yorick>obsolecense dates are a good idea, but could also get there as soon as the last vehicle is gone
09:35<@peter1138>What if I want to introduce a high speed track after a certain date?
09:35<Yorick>hm, just get new vehicles for it?
09:35<@peter1138>All trains that run on it can also run on the old slower track.
09:36-!-|Bastiaan| [] has joined #openttd
09:36<@peter1138>Hehe, it can have a massive curve speed advantage. SirkoZ would love that ;)
09:36<@Belugas>obsolecense is tricky. it means keeping the building time on the map
09:37<Yorick>[15:35] <peter1138> All trains that run on it can also run on the old slower track. <-- but can slower trains also run on the faster track?
09:37<@Belugas>Sirkoz would add some randomizeation to fine tune it ;)
09:38<@peter1138>Yorick, yes...
09:38*Belugas dives into work@work
09:39<Yorick>hmm, then it would be a good idea to add introduction dates and such
09:39<@peter1138>Belugas, building time is not necessary. Obsolecense in this case just meaning that you can't built it any more.
09:39<@peter1138>I can't really think of a use for obsolecense at the moment, but having the option might be useful for someone.
09:40<Yorick>but one introduction precondition for introducing new types is that there are vehicles available which can run on that tracktype
09:41<@peter1138>I think that's doable.
09:41<Kloopy>Yes, if you have the condition that you can't open the track build tools for a track type that has no valid engines, you have obsoleteness built in already.
09:41<Kloopy>Because all engines can be made obsolete in the grf, surely?
09:41<Yorick>Kloopy: not after 2050
09:41<Yorick>after 2050 all vehicles are frozen
09:42<@Belugas>do they?
09:42<Kloopy>Is that not easily patched? To keep single player end-game at 2050 but allow grfs to set dates after 2050?
09:42<@Belugas>ok, peter1138, understood
09:44-!-Osai^zZz is now known as Osai
09:44<@Rubidium>Kloopy: but how to determine till when vehicles must be obsoleted?
09:45<@Rubidium>imagine you load a train set that introduces a train in 2090, then none of the 'normal' road vehicles, aircraft and ships will be available after 2070-ish
09:45<Kloopy>The normal game vehicles will be available, because the standard game vehicles are still around in 2050.
09:45<Kloopy>But if you use grfs to replace those, it's up to the player to use grfs that have compatible year ranges.
09:46<Kloopy>A bit like chosing new industries and not having a train grf to transport new industries.
09:46<Celestar>hey Rubidium how is it?
09:46<@Rubidium>Kloopy: you don't want to know how many people complain about their trains not being able to transport those cargos
09:47<@Rubidium>or why newcargos and pbi and ecs don't work together
09:47<Kloopy>Hehe, I can imagine. :)
09:47<@Rubidium>Celestar: I'm getting bitchy on a lot of OSes lately
09:47<Celestar>got it Brianetta
09:47<@Rubidium>making the new compile farm work sanely
09:48<Celestar>Brianetta: let's say, ALMOST got it :)
09:48<Celestar>Brianetta: reload
09:48*Belugas does not envy Rubidium's task
09:48<Brianetta>Just the sed job for double lines, then?
09:49<Celestar>Brianetta: up to now, nothing is sedded
09:49<Brianetta>I can see
09:49<Brianetta>THe double lines are still doubled
09:50<Celestar>because one goes one way, one goes the other way ;)
09:56<Celestar>Brianetta: I promise, if you make a decent route map out of this, I will deal with the double lines :P
09:59-!-TrueBrain [truebrain@] has joined #openttd
10:00-!-dih is now known as dihedral
10:00-!-Tim [] has joined #openttd
10:00<TrueBrain>Dear fellow OpenTTD users .. expect some downtime on several key OpenTTD services in the next few minutes, up to a few hours, depending on your DNS cache ;)
10:01<TrueBrain>We are going to welcome LeaseWeb :)
10:02<Celestar>hey TrueBrain how are ya?
10:02<ln>hov vill ve surwiwe?
10:02<TrueBrain>hi Celestar :) I am find, you? :)
10:02<TrueBrain>ln: by hitting the keyboard at the correct place?
10:02<dihedral>ln: that was neither english, nor was that in quotes
10:02<dihedral>you know how irate you get about that yourself
10:03<Celestar>TrueBrain: coding cargodest, mostly (=
10:03-!-dihedral is now known as dih
10:03<Celestar>and trying to create a tubemap out of it :P
10:03<ln>dihedral: i'm trying to find vays to express silly accents in text.
10:04<Brianetta>äõôiéà silly enough for you?
10:04<ln>it's not particularly silly, it's plain gibberish.
10:05-!-TB [~truelight@] has joined #openttd
10:05<planetmaker> <-- ln, the Jägers in that comic might make for a good example :)
10:05<thingwath>Příliš žluťoučký kůn úpěl ďábelské ódy :-)
10:05-!-TrueBrain [truebrain@] has quit [Quit: Look at me flying!]
10:06<ln>bless you
10:06<Ammler>TB: it can't go worse then it was last days ;-)
10:08<TB>Ammler: well, this are exactly the other services than the last days :p (boo-hoo, 2 days downtime on 5 years uptime ...)
10:10<ln>i tåget finns en restaurangvagn.
10:10<TB>@kick ln get lost
10:10<ln>TB: vhy?
10:10<TB>@kick ln get lost
10:10-!-ln was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [get lost]
10:10<+glx>TB: your slave didn't recognised you ;)
10:10-!-ln [] has joined #openttd
10:10<TB>glx: not under this name ;)
10:11<@Rubidium>slashban ln dot fi?
10:11<+glx>indeed, different name and different host
10:12<ln>TB: i already have Lost up to season 4.
10:13<+glx>season 4 ended last saturday here
10:16<Ammler>is new or old ip?
10:16<@Belugas>season 5 will end in a month here
10:16<TB>Ammler: old
10:16<TB> <- new
10:16*ln is now known as ln_away_for_the_next_few_hours
10:16-!-TrueBrain [truebrain@] has joined #openttd
10:17-!-TB [~truelight@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:17<TrueBrain>@kban ln is now known as long for a long while
10:17<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
10:17<ln>TrueBrain: do you have a problem?
10:17<TrueBrain>yeah, my @kban didn't work
10:18<ln>TrueBrain: i mean, like a mental problem of some sort.
10:18<Ammler>TrueBrain: if I dig, I get the old ip with a TTL of >3000
10:18<ln>TrueBrain: you seem to get irritated quite easily.
10:18<TrueBrain>Ammler: so you have to wait an hor :p
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10:19<Celestar>I don't get the double lines removed that easily
10:19<Yorick>ln: you would almost start to think he does
10:22-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!] by Rubidium
10:22-!-mode/#openttd [-q *!] by Rubidium
10:22<@Rubidium>oops ;)
10:23<Yorick>somebody is trying to deny...
10:24<Ammler>how do I flush dns cache on linux?
10:24<blathijs>Restart your app?
10:25<SpComb>Ammler: depends on what DNS resolver/cache you use
10:25<blathijs>AFAIK DNS caching is taken care of by libc, in memory
10:25<TrueBrain>Ammler: and your ISP caches stuff too
10:25<dih>Ammler: dns cache also refers to that of the configured dns server ;-)
10:25<SpComb>for bind, `rndc flush`or something similar to that
10:25<Ammler>yeah, I would need to hack the ISP then :-)
10:25<dih>only if bind is configured to accepb rndc calls
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10:26<SpComb>which it is by default on debian, so meh
10:26<TrueBrain>Ammler: edit your /etc/hosts :)
10:27<SpComb>...and then forget to remove it later
10:27<Ammler>heh, good idea...
10:28<SpComb>DNS caches are an annoying thing sometimes
10:28<SpComb>like if you're trying to test if some weir
10:28<TrueBrain>I am full of those :p
10:28<SpComb>d configuration works with certain resolvers
10:30-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
10:39<TrueBrain>You want to know something cool? The new server is env-friendly ;) (green-power and stuff :p)
10:41<Celestar> <= Brianetta, reload (=
10:43<dih>Celestar: you have way too much time on your hands :-)
10:43<TrueBrain>Celestar: how is your dancing going? :)
10:43<Celestar>dih: it's only a few lines of diff (=
10:43<Celestar>dih: 123 lines to be exact
10:43<Celestar>TrueBrain: not bad. slipped into the top50 of the German Ranking List
10:43<TrueBrain>nice :)
10:44<CommanderZ>beautiful '<
10:44<planetmaker>what a graph, Celestar :)
10:44<Celestar> <= That's the diff for making those graphs
10:44<dih>Celestar: add Karlsruhe ;-)
10:44<Celestar>dih: there's no "Karlsruhe" in my game
10:45<dih>shame :-(
10:45<dih>make it
10:46<Celestar>renaming cities as a transport company feels wrong :P
10:46<planetmaker>Celestar: that's modern and called sponsoring.
10:47<planetmaker>"We build all those roads for you and you rename to a name which suits you".
10:47<planetmaker>Not long till it'll happen, I guess
10:47<planetmaker>...which suits us"
10:49<Celestar>right :P
10:49-!-Reemo [] has joined #openttd
10:50<Celestar>the good thing is: I'm at about 150 vehicles, running with debug level 3, and still have < 50% CPU usage
10:50<planetmaker>on a quad core :P
10:50<Celestar>on Pentium M 770
10:50<Celestar>just recompiling with real settings
10:51<TrueBrain>Celestar: what are you trying? :)
10:52<planetmaker> <-- you might want to look, Celestar. It's no newgrf (and actually no new game), but... it works so far smoothly
10:52<planetmaker>(or maybe any other person who cares to test the cargodest patch :)
10:53<Celestar>TrueBrain: cargodest
10:53-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
10:53<Celestar>planetmaker: will do in a minute, I first have to get rid of the mapwriting patch
10:53-!-TrueBrain changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | We Love YAPP
10:53-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
10:53<TrueBrain>Celestar: which is what exactly? :)
10:53<TrueBrain>@op Celestar
10:54-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by DorpsGek
10:54<@Celestar>TrueBrain: destinations for cargo
10:54<@Celestar>TrueBrain: "paxdest"
10:54<TrueBrain>wasn't there already a patch for it? :p
10:54<@Celestar>TrueBrain: yes. but this one works :P
10:54<TrueBrain>would be nice ;)
10:54<@Celestar>TrueBrain: plus it's FAST, plus it work in multiplayer
10:55<@Celestar>TrueBrain: and it's written cleanly
10:55<TrueBrain>so you have time on your hands, I understand ;)
10:55<@Celestar>intrusion into other parts of the code is microscopic
10:55<@Celestar>TrueBrain: actually no, I have reports to finish, but I need distraction because writing reports SUCK
10:56<TrueBrain>I tend to agree ;)
10:56<TrueBrain>why not upload the hg to dev-space?
10:58<@Celestar>to where? :P
10:59<TrueBrain>you received an email with details about it ;)
10:59<@Celestar>so like developers/celestar/cargodest ?
10:59<TrueBrain>exactly like that
10:59<TrueBrain>if you login via ssh, you will that there already is a 'celestar' dir there
10:59<Brianetta>Celestar: Very pretty
11:00<@Celestar>Brianetta: :D
11:00<@Celestar>TrueBrain: yeah I'll do that at some point
11:00<@Celestar>TrueBrain: once I know how to include boost properly
11:00<TrueBrain>so something like: hg push ssh:// should take care of that
11:00<TrueBrain>(of course you need to create the dir and run 'hg init' on it first via ssh)
11:01<@Celestar>what th e.. just let me try it
11:01<TrueBrain>ps, the second // isn't a typo ;)
11:01<TrueBrain>you might want to add the push url in your .hg/hgrc (or what is it called), under push .. then 'hg push' does it for you :p
11:01<@Celestar>I know (=
11:01<TrueBrain>and be careful with 'rollback', it creates multiple heads on the remote .. glx always complains about that to me :p
11:02<@Celestar>I dunno how to use rollback :P
11:02-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
11:02<TrueBrain>keep it that way ;)
11:02<blathijs>Is rollback something like rebase in git?
11:02<TrueBrain>blathijs: it simply removes the last commit
11:02<TrueBrain>so no
11:02<blathijs>Ie, giving commits a different heads and changing history?
11:02<TrueBrain>'hg rollback', and the last commit becomes the current diff
11:02<blathijs>Ah, it could be used for rebasing then
11:02<TrueBrain>I use it when I forgot a commit message :p
11:03<TrueBrain>blathijs: not really .. rebase is a bit more complex and powerful ;)
11:03<blathijs>It has the same problems as rebasing, when you do it after pushing
11:03<TrueBrain>that's for sure :)
11:03<@Celestar>peter1138: on a large game LoadUnloadStation eats quite a bit
11:03<Yorick>Celestar: how to go to the treeview with cargodest?
11:03<@Celestar>Yorick: elaborate
11:03<blathijs>TrueBrain: I know, but you could rollback changes, commit some others and then reapply the changes rolled back, effectively doing a rebase
11:03<Yorick>the station "tree view"
11:04<@Celestar>Yorick: yeah ... check the wiki (=
11:04<Yorick>oh, ctrl click
11:04<@orudge>hnmm, down, TrueBrain? I get "destination host unreachable" when pinging it from yoda, and also don't get anything when pinging it from here
11:04<TrueBrain>blathijs: yup :) My point was: rebase allows N revisiosn, rollback only 1 ;)
11:04<@Celestar>TrueBrain: ok.. trying to push now
11:04<TrueBrain>orudge: if I am here, it should tell you something ;) hehe :p Nah,w e moved it to LeaseWeb
11:04<TrueBrain>so give your DNS some time to update
11:04<@orudge>ah, I see
11:04<TrueBrain>(some more sponsering: LeaseWeb LeaseWeb LeaseWeb LeaseWeb LeaseWeb)
11:05<@Celestar>no NoAI commits for 2 weeks? :(
11:05<blathijs>TrueBrain: But you can't rollback N times?
11:05<TrueBrain>Celestar: been a bit too busy with .. LeaseWeb :p
11:05<TrueBrain>blathijs: never tried .. possible .. but when you recommit, it will be 1 commit ;)
11:05<@Celestar>peter1138: <= 150 active vehicles
11:06<blathijs>Yeah, you do need to keep the diffs seperate manually of course :-)
11:06<@Celestar>remote: added 19668 changesets with 43728 changes to 1572 files
11:06<@orudge>TrueBrain: on the screens.php page
11:06<@orudge>Warning: rsort() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given in /var/www/ on line 110
11:06<TrueBrain>blathijs: so git is more powerful with such things :p
11:06<@Celestar>TrueBrain: how do I get it added to the html interface?
11:06<Yorick>Celestar: I guess you should commit something
11:06<TrueBrain>orudge: works here .. that is still on the old location .. not touched in a long while
11:07<TrueBrain>Celestar: wait til lthe cache expires .. :p
11:07<@orudge>also, TrueBrain, seems to be being sent as UTF-8, but apparently doesn't contain UTF-8
11:07<@Celestar>TrueBrain: ok will do (=
11:07<@Celestar>Yorick: 19668 changesets SHOULD be enough :P
11:07<@glx><@Celestar> no NoAI commits for 2 weeks? :( <-- reminds me I have a sync to do :)
11:07<TrueBrain>there you go Celestar :)
11:07<@orudge>hmm, this time the error has disappeared, but still no screenshots
11:07<TrueBrain>orudge: the www is still in the old location ;)
11:07<@Celestar> <= WEE
11:07<@orudge>TrueBrain: ah
11:07<TrueBrain>any possible 'finds' of it on the new, are .. well .. bad luck ;)
11:08<blathijs>orudge: Is that a problem? ASCII is also UTF-8, right?
11:08<TrueBrain>description = NoAI patches
11:08<TrueBrain>contact = TrueBrain
11:08<TrueBrain>you might want to add that :) (via ssh)
11:08<Ammler>Celestar: "pax" is more coop jargon, isn't the "official" short "pass"?
11:08<TrueBrain>Celestar: oh, and if you publish the url, best is:
11:09<@Celestar>Ammler: PAX is one of the international abbreviations for passenger(s)
11:09<@Celestar>Ammler: the other being SLF
11:09<TrueBrain>blathijs: I tihnk he means the special chars ;)
11:09<@Celestar>TrueBrain: ok
11:09<TrueBrain>(for hg this is weird, but 'vcs' is to 'view', and 'hg' is to 'download' ..)
11:09<Ammler>hmm, where did I read pass...
11:09<TrueBrain>just for hg they are identical .. :p
11:10<blathijs>TrueBrain: He probably means there are no UTF-8 characters that don't have the same representation in ASCII, which doesn't really matter much
11:10<@Celestar>Ammler: somewhere in the code I guess
11:11<@Celestar>hg guys: <= is now the official cargodest URL (=
11:11<Ammler>hmm, maybe it was from ECS
11:11<TrueBrain>blathijs: <- check the weird chars
11:11<Brianetta> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
11:11<Brianetta>Clearly it isn't (:
11:12<Ammler>jep, ECS:
11:12<@peter1138>Just update the pages so they do actually contain UTF-8.
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11:12<@peter1138>orudge worded it slightly wrong ;)
11:13<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ah, so it contains characters that are not UTF-8, that's something different than no UTF-8 at all :-)
11:13<@orudge>it was being sent, in the headers, as UTF-8, but the page didn't actually contain UTF-8 encoding
11:13<@orudge>but anyway, you got what I meant :p
11:13<TrueBrain>in fact, the page is UTF-8
11:13<TrueBrain>just the HTTP header is wrong ;)
11:13<@Celestar>peter1138: maybe we should make some annoucement on the forum?
11:14<TrueBrain>(it does work on the old location :p)
11:14<@peter1138>The content is ISO8859-1(5), when it should be UTF-8.
11:14<TrueBrain>(and the source are identical)
11:14<Brianetta>Not UTF-8
11:14<@orudge>it is indeed fine on the old site
11:15<TrueBrain>hit the button on your browser to force UTF-8, and it is fine :)
11:15<Brianetta>Even the meta header I pasted?
11:15<TrueBrain>but don't worry about it, it will be fixed before you know it :)
11:15<@orudge>but the new site is being rendered as UTF-8, and the symbols are not fine
11:15<@orudge>as Brianetta says, �
11:15<@peter1138>TrueBrain, wrong.
11:15<@orudge>seems something got a bit corrupted
11:15<@Celestar>Ammler: it's always PAX, or SLF(colloq.)
11:15<Ammler>mäh, I need to change my nameservers, got another 3600 with old ip
11:15<Brianetta><dt>Jean-Fran�ois Claeys (Belugas)</dt>
11:15<@Celestar>beh. can't you people have 7-bit ASCII names?
11:16<@peter1138>The new one is not UTF-8 encoded, but the old one is.
11:16<@Belugas>damned... my real identity has been revealed
11:16<@peter1138>Did a database migration go wrong? :o
11:16<TrueBrain>hmm, the header is also send correctly .. weird .. well, wil check that out later :)
11:16<TrueBrain>peter1138: possible :p
11:16<Brianetta>It's definitely not encoded as UTF8
11:16<@peter1138>If I force it to ISO8859-1 it works fine.
11:16<TrueBrain>Belugas: and now you find out? :p
11:16<@orudge>ah, perhaps the mysql encodings weren't the same on both servers?
11:16<@peter1138>But that is clearly wrong, because UTF-8 is the one-true-encoding.
11:16<@Celestar>peter1138: I'm not worried about LoadUnloadStation btw. If we run into problems, there's another level of caching we can add
11:17<@Celestar>peter1138: performance of cargodest
11:17<@Celestar>peter1138: check the link above? :P
11:17<@peter1138>Sorry, not paid any attention.
11:17<@peter1138>Have been trying to find out why a mail config no longer works :o
11:17-!-Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
11:18<@Celestar>I've got to set up my mail server at some point
11:18<@peter1138>It used to, I'm sure.
11:18<TrueBrain>lol, peter1138, you are right :)
11:18<TrueBrain>mysql changed back to latin1
11:18<TrueBrain>well, it always was .. hmm .. what ever :p
11:19<@peter1138>It's not looking up virtual_mailbox_maps at all :o
11:19<@Celestar>Brianetta: so what do we do with the tube maps?
11:19<@peter1138>Or just not logging it...
11:20<Brianetta>Celestar: /-:
11:20<@Celestar>Brianetta: I'm not getting any further in converting the raw data in anything prettier (=
11:21<@Celestar>whatever I uploaded is the best I could get up to now
11:21<@Celestar>peter1138: have you see the "tubemaps" ? (=
11:23<@Celestar>Brianetta: dot is not honoring the lengths or the positions whatsoever apparently
11:23<@Celestar>Brianetta: other output systems run out of memory before anything useful was printed :P
11:24<Brianetta>Never mind )-:
11:24<@Celestar>Brianetta: but we have something that we can use I guess
11:24<@Celestar>Brianetta: we just need to optimize the output of the data we get
11:25<@Celestar>Brianetta: apparently, the program for the London Tube maps is open source :P
11:26<@Celestar>I've read it somewhere
11:26<@Celestar>can't find the link at the moment :S
11:31-!-Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:36<@Celestar>planetmaker: ok where did that server run on?
11:38<@Belugas>Celestar, just a quick question: you are in aerospace, right?
11:38<@Celestar>Belugas: kind of, yes
11:38-!-Brainstorm [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:38<planetmaker>Celestar: on our dev server:
11:39<@Belugas>a friend of mine asked me if the plans for Ariane's rockets were public, like .. open source
11:39<@Celestar>yeah, but what was the port?
11:39<@Celestar>Belugas: er... nope
11:39<@Belugas>so... it's evilish ?
11:39<@Celestar>Belugas: they could serve as ICBM you know
11:39*Belugas runs away!
11:39<@Celestar>thanks planetmaker
11:39<@Celestar>:P Belugas
11:40-!-endru [] has joined #openttd
11:40<planetmaker>ICBM for everyone! yeah!
11:48<@Celestar>would solve some probs
11:49<blathijs>Would solve a lot of other things as well
11:49<thingwath>all problems
11:50<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14122 /branches/noai/ (119 files in 13 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14072:14121
11:50<thingwath>well, if there would be also open source nuclear weapons
11:51<Forked>hmm, sounds like aproduct that will produce ALOT of debug at level 3 ?
11:52<Yorick>nuclear weapond also produce ALOT of debug at level 0
11:52-!-CommanderZ [] has left #openttd []
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12:09<TrueBrain>Dear users, in a short while you will experience problem reaching the master server, till the point your DNS cache for expires
12:09-!-endru [] has quit [Quit: endru]
12:10<TrueBrain>(oh, and moves to the new location ;))
12:10<ln>sir, yes, sir.
12:11-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
12:11-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*] by TrueBrain
12:11<@TrueBrain>@kick ln you still annoy me
12:11-!-ln was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you still annoy me]
12:13<@Celestar>peter1138: doing full openttdcooop test of cargodest at the moment (=
12:16<@TrueBrain>lol, SpComb, guess what ... I had an old record in my /etc/hosts and was wondering why it still didn't work :p Hehe :)
12:18*Yorick adds leaseweb banner to adblocker
12:18<@TrueBrain>like it is annoying in any way :)
12:18<@TrueBrain>at least they have a nice small logo :)
12:19<@TrueBrain>I have seen some 'powered by' logos in the past few weeks ... omg .. :p
12:19<Yorick>it is spoiling the heade
12:19<@TrueBrain>hehe :p
12:20<@TrueBrain>in the new design I will try to fit it in more nice :)
12:20<@TrueBrain>how are you btw Yorick? :)
12:20<@TrueBrain>(brb, shopping time!)
12:21-!-Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
12:21<Digitalfox>Hi TrueBrain :)
12:22<Yorick>long time no-got-kicked :-)
12:22<Digitalfox>That's the banner? That isn't annoying at all, I thought it was going to be a medium size banner, but this one isn't even considered a banner :)
12:26<@peter1138>That is pretty small as banners go :)
12:28<Digitalfox>If someone complains about that banner and how it bloats the page, please give me his address and I'll send it to CIA as a terrorist address.. =0
12:29<Digitalfox>I'm sure the CIA will give that person a nice treatment to his head ;)
12:29-!-Pikka is now known as Pikka|tf2
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12:57<@TrueBrain>Yorick: so you finally stopped challanging me? :p
12:57<Yorick>TrueBrain: it was never really my intention...
12:57<@TrueBrain>I am kidding Yorick :)
13:00*TrueBrain hugs Yorick
13:00*Yorick hugs back
13:00<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox: I expected a bigger banner too, but this is very doable :)
13:00*Yorick wonders why he deserved that
13:00*Belugas hugs hacks
13:00<@TrueBrain>I want your money Yorick :)
13:00<@TrueBrain>Belugas: painful :p
13:00<Yorick>and you're sticky
13:00<Digitalfox>Oh hug contest.. I want a hug too :(
13:01<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox: :p
13:01*Yorick hugs Digitalfox and gets his money
13:01*TrueBrain tries not to kick Yorick :p
13:01<Digitalfox>bad TrueBrain, you're bad...
13:01<@TrueBrain>(ghehehe :))
13:01*Yorick tries TrueBrain not to kick Yorick
13:01<@TrueBrain>Yorick: hehe :)
13:01<@Belugas>no commit allowed
13:02*Yorick hugs Belugas :-)
13:02<Digitalfox>now TrueBrain since yexo give a hug, i'll give him my iphone :p
13:02<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox: OH!
13:02<@TrueBrain>Belugas: poor Belugas :(
13:02-!-DorpsGek [] has quit [Quit: TrueBrain]
13:02<Yorick>poor DorpsGek
13:02*Yorick can take place without anyone noticing now
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13:03<Digitalfox>by the way, does any of the ports already done for openttd, works with the iphone?
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13:04<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox: I read something about that
13:04<DaleStan>peter1138: Concerning the proposed railtype property 10 (Rail type flags), regular rail and monorail, in TTDPatch, can have different acceleration properties, and I can imagine wanting to specify which of the two to use.
13:04<@peter1138>What are the options?
13:04<DaleStan>Or should I discuss that in #tycoon.
13:05-!-DorpsGek [truebrain@] has joined #openttd
13:05-!-mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
13:05<@peter1138>Either place ;)
13:05<@TrueBrain>welcome back DorpsGek
13:05<@peter1138>Even the wiki ;)
13:05<@glx>get back to work DorpsGek :)
13:05<Yorick>DorpsGek has migrated to another Dorp
13:06<@TrueBrain>@load openttd
13:06<@TrueBrain>welcome back DorpsGek
13:06<@TrueBrain>@load openttd
13:06<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
13:06<@TrueBrain>@load wt2
13:06<Yorick>@list openttd
13:06<@TrueBrain>@load XMLRPC
13:06<@DorpsGek>Yorick: bug, bugs, changed, commit, download, grf, grfs, info, port, ports, propset, servers, svn, thelog, and youngest
13:06<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: Xmlrpc is already loaded.
13:06<@TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
13:07<@glx>now it just need to update the topics
13:07<@glx>and report the latest commit
13:07<@TrueBrain>glx: which revision?
13:08<@TrueBrain>found it :)
13:08<@TrueBrain>glx: all okay now?
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13:08<DaleStan>TTDPatch's acceleration models are user-controlled by the curves and mountains switches. Each of normal, monorail, maglev, and road has 4 independent settings for each switch, for a total of 16 possible "models" per track type.
13:08<@glx>TrueBrain: .notice is still wrong
13:08<@TrueBrain>glx: now? :)
13:09-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
13:09<@TrueBrain>WT2 patched
13:09<@TrueBrain> is the only one left on the old server .. we need an alternative for that badly :p
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13:10<Digitalfox>TrueBrain why?
13:11<@glx>btw I don't know if svn maillist is down or if the latest commit was too big
13:11<DaleStan>I don't think the GRF should be allowed to override the users preferences, but it should follow the users preferences -- If rail and monorail have different properties for their models, then the tracks that are like rail should have the rail acceleration properties, and the tracks that are like monorail should have the monorail acceleration properties.
13:12<@glx>(probably too big commit as it contains lang update)
13:12<@peter1138>So we need to allow 3 options, normal, monorail and maglev
13:13<DaleStan>That's what I think, anyway. Other than that, everything else looks good, at least to the extent specified.
13:16<@TrueBrain>glx: too big, I received it ;)
13:16<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox: ever noticed the amount of spam? :p
13:16<Digitalfox>TrueBrain oh yeah.
13:18<@peter1138>Hmm, I guess that wants to be a separate property.
13:20-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:20<hylje>arbitrary properties for railtypes, magically map some properties to old properties
13:22-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
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13:25<@peter1138>DaleStan, property 15.
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13:33<DaleStan>Thanks. That looks good, I think. We'll have to do a little work with the handling of curves/mountains, since I forgot that it shifts to normal/electrified/unified if elrails is on, but changing that to "if elrails is on and newroutes is off" shouldn't be an issue.
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13:41<nicfer>hmmm how hard would be simulate one core from a multi core processor for OTTD?
13:42<nicfer>because actually a dual core 1.6 processor will be slower than my 2.4ghz celeron
13:42<@Belugas>nicfer, OpenTTd does use only one core (apart when saving, but that's something else)
13:42<@glx>Belugas: and when generating map
13:42<@peter1138>nicfer, in fact, it won't.
13:43<@Belugas>true :)
13:43<@peter1138>It's not just about clock speed...
13:43<nicfer>I mean, something like emulating a single-core processor from a multi core one
13:44<Noldo>mmm, how would you do that exactly?
13:46<Bergee>do you mean force a specific program to only run on one of the cores and ignore the others?
13:46<nicfer>no, I mean using two cores as one
13:46<@peter1138>You can't.
13:46<nicfer>for example
13:48<Bergee>write a virtual machine *shrug*
13:48<Bergee>but it's probably not going to be any better than just using a single core in reality and ignoring the second core
13:48-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:48<nicfer>then it's time to do a parallel proyect to openttd targeting higher end pcs
13:48<@peter1138>Go on then.
13:49<Bergee>but your assumption that a 1.6ghz dual core processor is slower than a 2.4 ghz celeron isn't necessarily accurate
13:49<Bergee>so heh
13:49<@peter1138>But if you think a 2.4 GHz Celeron will beat a 1.6 GHz Core 2 Duo you're mistaken.
13:50<nicfer>without the extra core not
13:51<Bergee>even if you restrict whatever you're running to using a single core on the core 2 duo
13:51<Bergee>you're assuming that every instruction takes the same number of clock cycles on each processor (and that the instruction sets are exactly the same)
13:51<Bergee>neither of those are the case
13:52<Bergee>like peter1138 said, there's more to it than clock speed
13:53<nicfer>then a 1.6ghz atom is faster than my old celeron?
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13:55<Bergee>it might be, how does this relate to openttd though?
13:58<@Belugas>that has been discussed long and large. multithreading of Open (same for Patch) would just mean rewriting the whole system. IF anyone is willing to do that, fine, but i'm sure all the current devs have more interesting projects to run apart THAT
13:59<Bergee>not sure why, openttd takes almost no processor time under normal speed anyway
14:00<Bergee>so I don't see where the huge benefit would be, but heh :P
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14:17<Noldo>well, it's a challenge and who doesn't like challenges ;)
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14:21<frosch123>moin :)
14:21-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:22*peter1138 ponders reducing the action 3 stuff down a bit, and letting the GRF handle snow/desert variations.
14:22-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
14:22<@peter1138>When using overlays, it's not so critical that there are different sprites.
14:23<fjb>Moin frosch123 :)
14:24<frosch123>you could also add a snow variable and call the action3 two times with different values in the variable to pre-render the sprites
14:25-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:29<@peter1138>pre-render :o
14:29<@peter1138>I'm not pre-rendering anything.
14:29-!-fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
14:37<Yorick>could something be implemented to mark the end of an rcon response?
14:41<@Rubidium>why would that be needed?
14:42<@Rubidium>as I said many times... if you want to control your server remotely it shouldn't be done as a client but over some management interface
14:42<@Rubidium>would solve that problem too
14:43<@Rubidium>[repeat] as I said many times... if you want to control your server remotely it shouldn't be done as a client but over some management interface
14:45<Yorick>yes, the problem is that the management interface is not there
14:45<Yorick>and just opening a connection to a server could be seen as some management interface, just send the rcon packet, wait for response and diconnect
14:45-!-FauxFaux [] has joined #openttd
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14:49<@Rubidium>if "random noise" and "undefined interface" means part of a management interface, then yes
14:50<Yorick>why "random noise" if it isn't so random?
14:50<@Rubidium>possible chat messages
14:51<Yorick>possible chat messages are not random?
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14:55<Digitalfox>" Plane Speed factor " -> before a option was available to choose the speed, what was the speed in trunk ?
14:56<@peter1138>Er, well...
14:56<@peter1138>Sort of :)
14:57<Digitalfox>peter1138 yes, but i meant after the fisrt speed change was done but before the speed option..
14:57<Digitalfox>Where planes fly at the real speed :)
14:58<Brianetta>Sacro: Not stopping to pay off you loan?
14:58<Sacro>Brianetta: isn't it paid off?
14:58<Digitalfox>I thought it was 1/1, but I just realized one helicopter flys faster than a 747 in the game :p
14:58<Brianetta>you're owing £200,000
14:58<@peter1138>It was 1/1
14:59<Digitalfox>peter1138 ok :)
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15:00<@peter1138>Hmm, I'm missing GRVTS 1.3...
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15:02-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
15:02<@peter1138>Erk, missing features!
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15:12<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14123 /trunk/src/table/unmovable_land.h: -Codechange: a few magical number to sprite name conversions
15:15<fjb>Missng what fearture?
15:17<Progman>peter1138: is there a place to post bugs for cargodest?
15:18-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
15:19<Progman>the first train view windows isn't changed for cargodest, is it?
15:21<rortom>hi all
15:21<rortom>we are searching translators for RoR :\
15:23<Yorick>in what languages?
15:23<rortom>like chinese and everything
15:23<Yorick>whats everything?
15:23<rortom>thats what is done
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15:24<Yorick>how many strings does it contain?
15:25-!-xerxes [] has joined #openttd
15:26<rortom>let me have a look
15:26<@peter1138>First train view window?
15:27<Progman>peter1138: the train view you see first
15:27<Progman>the first of four
15:27<@peter1138>It won't change.
15:27<Wolf01>Warning: dir(nightly) [function.dir]: failed to open dir: No such file or directory in /var/www/ on line 22 :(
15:27<Progman>hmm, but the listing is weird
15:28<@peter1138>Looks normal to me.
15:28<Progman>while unloading: "30 pax from Foo" -> "26 pax from Bar" -> "14 pax from Bla" -> "7 pax from Bli" -> "Empty"
15:28<Progman>on _one_ waggon
15:28<@peter1138>Yeah, the source is taken from the first cargo packet.
15:28<Progman>so there were 30+26+14+7 pax in a 30 sized waggon
15:29<Bergee>no he's saying there were 30 pax, and the first one was from Foo (maybe the first four)
15:29<Bergee>pax 26 was from bar
15:29<Progman>maybe comma seperated per waggon
15:30<Progman>like "4 pax from Foo, 12 pax from Bla, ...."
15:30<Bergee>and he's saying it displays the source as coming from the first thing
15:30-!-rortom [] has quit []
15:30<@peter1138>Progman, not really enough space
15:30<@peter1138>Total cargo will get the detail listing.
15:31<Bergee>maybe you could just say from "multiple" or something?
15:31<@peter1138>It would say multiple for nearly everything ;)
15:31<Bergee>so that you know to look at total cargo if you actually care
15:31-!-shodan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:31<Bergee>well, heh :P
15:31-!-xerxes is now known as shodan
15:31<Bergee>fair enough I guess heh
15:31<Bergee>can I reasonably trust that is up to date?
15:31<Progman>or simply "30 pax"
15:32<@peter1138>I wouldn't count on it.
15:32<Bergee>figured :P
15:32<@peter1138>Use the file in the source.
15:32<Bergee>I was contemplating reviving the ttdpatch thing for abadoning roads if they sit unused
15:32<Bergee>is why I ask
15:32<Progman>btw., the tree view is awesome ;)
15:32<Progman>good work
15:33<@peter1138>I've not seen the tree view.
15:33<Progman>you didn't? ... ou yeah, celestar did.. *remember*
15:33<@Rubidium>Bergee: you can reasonably trust that whatever is on the wiki is outdated or erroneous
15:33<Bergee>how useful lol :P
15:34<Bergee>that is what I kinda guessed though after reading through it
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15:45<Yorick>what do the console colors mean?
15:45<@Belugas>Bergee, the url for wiki map's usage? VERY NOT up to date
15:45<@Belugas>and i do not feel like doing it
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15:46<Bergee>yeah that's okay lol
15:46<Bergee>I just did as peter1138 said and read the HTML file from the source
15:46<Bergee>unfortunately it contained bad news, mainly there's no free room in the map array for roads heh
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15:50<@Belugas>no kidding ^_^
15:50<Bergee>yeah, well lol
15:50<@Belugas>well... that is not TOTALY true, though
15:50<Bergee>makes it harder to add something to expire unused roads from ownership, etc
15:51-!-Pikka|tf2 is now known as Pikka
15:52<Bergee>well the file seems to suggest that there might be 3 bits free in m1, maybe :P
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15:53<@Belugas>i was more looking at m2
15:53<fjb>When is a road unused?
15:53<@Belugas>the pool of towns is maxed at 8000
15:53<Bergee>Belugas, ah well it just marked all of them as flat out used heh :P
15:54<@Belugas>so... with 16 bits, i think there are a few space usable
15:54<Bergee>fjb, if an AI builds a road and destroys the route
15:54<Bergee>(or if a player does the same thing)
15:54<Bergee>they just own the roads forever
15:54<frosch123>Bergee: if you are in luck m2 is only used when the road is already owned by a town
15:54<Bergee>and since it costs money to destroy the roads, no one ever does
15:55<Bergee>which means after a long period of time the map ends up cluttered with a crapload of old roads :P
15:55<Bergee>indeed frosch123 and Belugas
15:55<fjb>How do you map a road to a route?
15:56<Bergee>you don't, but you know when a player's road vehicle drives over a road
15:56<Bergee>and if that stops happening for x period of time (years), then you can probably declare the road unused
15:57<fjb>There may be a long time without a vehicle using the the road without making the road unused (backup route etc).
15:57<Bergee>certainly possible
15:58<Bergee>but if you know going in if the road isn't used every 5 years
15:58<Bergee>that someone will be able to bulldoze it
15:58<Bergee>(5 years was drawn out of a hat)
15:58<fjb>I would not like my backups get blown away.
15:58<Bergee>then you'd probably be more careful
15:58<Bergee>but realistically speaking fjb, this is mostly a problem with the AI
15:59<Bergee>because they just destroy the stations and leave the roads
15:59<fjb>Or another player denies me access to that road just long enough and he can buldoze it.
16:00<Bergee>5 years of denying you access? by doing what?
16:01<fjb>Traffic jams, parked trains, there are many ways.
16:01-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:01<Bergee>sure, so ways that are already uh... cheap :P
16:01<Bergee>and most people would consider unsportsmanlike
16:02<fjb>Parking trains are cheap.
16:02<fjb>Sure, not very sportsmanlike, but still effective.
16:02<Bergee>I agree, but I mean, you're worrying about someone exploiting something that already requires them to be shitty in the first place
16:03<Sacro>exploiting eh
16:03<Bergee>nothing saying a multiplayer server would even want such an option on to be honest
16:04<Bergee>I really was thinking of the AI in the first place, because I think that's why ttdpatch added that option
16:05<fjb>Think about the better AIs possible with the noai branch. They will have the possibility to do all the nasty things.
16:05<Bergee>well that's why I came here, you're doing some of that thinking for me
16:06<Bergee>but if someone blocks the route off for 5 years, you're already going to have sold road vehicles off anyway
16:07<fjb>Sometimes the AIs are already blocking everything without bad intend:
16:07<Bergee>or just sit there losing money? :P
16:07<Bergee>yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about
16:07<Ammler>is boost also needed for playing?
16:08<fjb>Parking the road vehicles in a depot. Or waiting for a possibility to get around that jam.
16:08<Ammler>not just for compiling cargo dest?
16:08<Ammler>peter1138: ^
16:08<@glx>just for compiling
16:08<fjb>That is the future of AI. That AI buys a lot of busses. If everything jams it sell some busses, then after some time it buys new busses.
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16:15<Ammler>Rubidium: I have again (or still)
16:15<Ammler>currently at our cargo dest testgame...
16:16<@Rubidium>then it got most likely broken in cargo dest
16:16<Ammler>hmm, or with signals?
16:17<Ammler>I try on plain trunk
16:17<@Rubidium>signals didn't change the orders
16:20<Bergee>fjb, I was thinking more like
16:21-!-KillaloT [] has quit [Quit: Like's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> <-]
16:21<Bergee>those being mostly owned by two AIs and a little bit of the town, none of them are at all used any longer
16:22<Wolf01>abandoned roads!!!!
16:22<fjb>Yes, but disowning the roads can easily abused. And it is a hotfix for a problem that will go away when the noai branch gets merged to trunk (which will not be anytime soon but that branch makes great progress).
16:23<Bergee>I don't agree with easily, so much so as, requires abusing other things first in order to abuse that
16:24<Bergee>and well uh, don't do that, make it against the rules, etc :P
16:27<Yorick>I had FS#2241 again :o
16:30<Ammler>we "workedaround" desync of later joining player with loading server new
16:31<Ammler>Yorick: cargo dest game?
16:31<Yorick>Ammler: where?
16:32<@TrueBrain>in your ass!
16:32<Ammler>Yorick: I meant, do you have that bug in cargo dest game?
16:32<Yorick>I discovered it in 0.6
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16:34<Ammler>ah, well
16:34<Ammler>forget what I said
16:34<Yorick>I don't forget my ass...
16:35<Ammler>I meant with "again" a bug which was solved but applies again...
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16:39*peter1138 ponders fixing signals to obey rail type ;)
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16:56<@Belugas>good night, me goes home
17:00*Sacro is now playing: Renee And Renato - Save Your Love
17:00<Wolf01>do you want to help me developing a new patch?
17:02-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:02<Sacro>I'm coding something for SimSig
17:02<Sacro>but I can do
17:02<Wolf01>I'm doing drag&drop roadstops
17:03<Wolf01>and sound options to enable and disable sounds like I did with transparency
17:05<Wolf01>the first one is half done, it needs some tweaking, the second one is giving me some troubles
17:20-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>these intartubes are evading little beasts
17:21-!-CIA-5 [cia@] has joined #openttd
17:22-!-Pikka [] has quit []
17:23*Prof_Frink finds the other version
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>you talk too much... my buffer doesn't even cover the whole day...
17:23<@peter1138>Clearly you should not go away.
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, considering that it even missed logging 3 hours...
17:26<Prof_Frink>Bah, recreantview seems to be broken
17:27-!-xerxes [] has joined #openttd
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>file downloads here...
17:29<Prof_Frink>Yeah, it's the site that's broken - direct links work fine
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i love drag and drop... i can click on the URL in Konversation, and drag it to an open Konqueror window, and it starts downloading
17:31<Prof_Frink>I love drag and drop... I can drag an mp3 file from an audio cd to my ipod.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>i can drag it from the Konqueror window to the Amarok icon in the task bar
17:31-!-mortal` [] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!]
17:32<Prof_Frink>Let's face it. Kio is le awesome.
17:33-!-shodan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:33-!-xerxes is now known as shodan
17:34-!-Marduuhin [] has quit []
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>and then amarok (semi-)automatically downloads the text to the song ;)
17:49-!-Celestar [] has joined #openttd
17:50<Brianetta>Is there any way to stop getting offers of new vehicles?
17:50<Brianetta>They're really in-your-face when trying to build
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, accept one, and then don't build it for a year
17:51<Brianetta>"Yes" "No" "F*** off you annoying t*** and stop bothering me"
17:51<Celestar>er ...
17:51<Brianetta>Hopefully I only have another 12 months of these
17:52<Celestar>peter1138: I just managed to crash a server via rcon :P
17:52-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has joined #openttd
17:52-!-fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
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17:53<Celestar>ok not crash
17:53-!-shodan [] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting]
17:53<Celestar>but produce a 2-minute(!!) delay (=
17:53-!-Mucht [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:54-!-Mucht [] has joined #openttd
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>:(){ :|:& };:
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>type that into bash ;)
17:55<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: no I mean the openttd dediserver(=
17:57<@glx>it's quite silly to allow : as function name
17:58-!-Amixbook [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know whose brilliant idea was that ;)
17:59<Sacro>def get_tomorrow_date():
17:59<Sacro>[22:58] * Amixbook has quit (Ping time
17:59<Sacro>damn pastefali
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>fali indeed.
17:59<Sacro>def get_tomorrow_date():
17:59<Sacro>return time.localtime()
18:00<Sacro>i need to use this code in a project
18:02<Celestar>peter1138: you around?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> planetmaker: but actually I could use some single-player testers as well. <- the only obvious things i can find is the balancing of the destination choosing and the route choosing. another thing was an autoreplace bug which i assume has been fixed already.
18:05<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: the balancing will be configurable a bit
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>basically i think the bias on station size is not working correctly. the local trains are always leaving the city full and arriving empty
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>and the routing bit is about that the people insist on taking the express train and not distribute over the local train
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>so i need too many express trains
18:07<fjb>One of my Airbus' prefered to be a Groundbus. :(
18:08<fjb>Kind of...
18:08<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah I know of these issues but I think they will be addressed in v2
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i'm just telling...
18:08<Celestar>the second issue is easy to solve, but if we want non-digital route choosing it'll cost (quite) a bit of CPU possibly
18:09<Celestar>but we've not managed to desync the game
18:09*Prof_Frink refits a bus to carry any form of breakfast food.
18:09<Prof_Frink>That's right, it's a Universal Cereal Bus.
18:09<Celestar>even with disabling and enabling the routing system mid-game or even a manual removal of the whole routing system on the server
18:12<Celestar>is Rubidium around? (=
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>well. the other obvious problem, the amount of passengers generated i "fixed" locally :)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's the problem of distributing the income on the vehicles
18:15<Celestar>just disable TTRS3 and it's decent (=
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>the last vehicle in the chain almost always operates at a loss
18:16<fjb>Prof_Frink: :)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are two ways to solve that: don't make "transfers" at a station, but instead create a new cargopacket (so the waiting time at the station wouldn't be taken into account)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>or tune down the "transfer credit" (i reduced it by 30%)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>so the final payment favours the last vehicle
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>the 30% seem to work quite well
18:17<Celestar>I had that in trunk once
18:18<Celestar>it got removed :P
18:18<Celestar>because it supposedly made "no sense"
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember that
18:18<Celestar>I do :P
18:19<Celestar>I'm not going to browse through the logs for it
18:19<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Here is another example for your list of station layouts not usable without YAPP:
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: no, because that was built with yapp in mind
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>i built mine without any PBS in sight
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>the problem was not the path blocking part
18:21<fjb>But try to make something like that without YAPP. It will deadlock.
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>but that i needed two separate "layers" of presignals
18:22<fjb>Still it would not be usable without YAPP.
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>one from the main line to the wood station, and one from the branch line to the passenger station
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i ended up combo-signalling the passenger route, because that was more common to deadlock
18:23<Celestar>there are things you cannot build without yapp
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>the cargo one i balanced by trying to limit the number of trains arriving
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>after that, when it occasionally locked up, i usually got "train is lost" messages by one of the passenger trains turning around
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it worked fairly well, but it needed manual input
18:26<fjb>Thats nothing for the "hundred coal mines feeding one power station using maglevs" people.
18:27<Prof_Frink>fjb: And there's a factory and oil refinery and sawmill at the same place as the power station
18:27<fjb>Ofcourse it is. Don't forget the signal at eveery tile.
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't reached the maglev stage in years...
18:28<Prof_Frink>On final approach, yes.
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think i never ever reached the year 2050 yet
18:29<Prof_Frink>fjb: It's not a real station 'til it can take over a year for a train to escape.
18:30<fjb>What is reality...?
18:30<fjb>I have an idea for the joining distant stations problem.
18:30<fjb>But I'm lacking a bit at C++ skills at the moment.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: wasn't there an update that fixed the missing catenary at the goods station?
18:32<fjb>I habe the latest ISR (0.7.1).
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18:34<fjb>I need a way to cross a road with a station.
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure peter1138 has a patch for that :p
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>but honestly, i don't think that'll be possible any time soon
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>road/rail crossings are one of the fullest tiles of all
18:37<@Rubidium>Celestar: I'm kinda around
18:37<fjb>Just a station without a real crossing, just a station that has some tracks of the other side of the road would be enough.
18:38<@TrueBrain>Rubidium: around what?
18:38<@Rubidium>Celestar: you know your way around in Solaris?
18:38<@TrueBrain>wasn't Celestar who supplied me with sunos files?
18:38*fjb knows a way around Solaris.
18:38<Celestar>Rubidium: We are network testing cargodest with ottdcoop. No desyncs in the routing system no matter how hard I try. I just managed to freeze the server for two minutes using rcon.
18:38<Celestar>Rubidium: a little.
18:38<Celestar>Rubidium: performance is reasonable too
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ah, that kind of "cross"... that should be easy with drive through stops usually
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>unless it's a competitor's road
18:39<@Rubidium>Celestar: does 'a little' mean you can make it compile OpenTTD?
18:39<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Not when I don't own that road.
18:39<Celestar>Rubidium: yes.
18:39<@Rubidium>and that you can install it?
18:39<Celestar>that too
18:39<Celestar>I have it on a VM @ office
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, occasionally the distant-join-station thing comes in handy
18:40<@Rubidium>in virtualbox?
18:40<Celestar>you want the VM? (=
18:40<@TrueBrain>"file: could not find any magic files!" <- you got to love errors ;)
18:40<Brianetta>What I wish I could do
18:41<Brianetta>is choose my colour scheme per train
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18:41<Brianetta>Gordon would be red
18:41<Celestar>Rubidium: why?
18:41<@peter1138>Code it ;)
18:41<@Rubidium>Celestar: rather a clean one made in virtualbox with just the bare essentials (and support for VirtualBox's shared directory)
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: use the player cheat ;)
18:41<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll see what I can do tomorrow, k?
18:41<Brianetta>peter1138: It would change the saved game and get thrown out
18:41<@Rubidium>because I can't get my head around making it
18:42<@Rubidium>I completely fail in installing what is needed
18:42<Brianetta>Eddi: I'm in multiplayer
18:42<fjb>Yes, but the distant join stations patch has the possible race condition with the stations list. But you could work around that if you would not build a list but pick the station like you do when adding orders.
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's unfortunate :)
18:42<Celestar>Rubidium: ok. tomorrow. I'm drunk :P
18:42<@Rubidium>tomorrow's fine
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: yes, the station id must be sent in the command, not the index of the list item you clicked on
18:43<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Even not using a list at all but chosing the station on the map would be best.
18:44<Celestar>peter1138: Rubidium: if you could have a look at LoadUnloadStation. We might want to store cargo_left somehow that we don't have to rebuild it all the time. it's the slowest function in the whole routing system by at least one order of magnitute. and I'd like your expertise on how to do this best.
18:44<Celestar>I gotta sleep. Good night.
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't like that...
18:45<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: A list may always be out of sync.
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it doesn't matter if the list is client side
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>then the command would only fail if the station disappeared
18:46<fjb>But the list would not show newly appearing stations.
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>upon station change you could invalidate the window
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>and trigger a rebuild of the list
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's not much different than availability of airport (or newstation) types depending on date
18:48<fjb>But chosing on the map is way more intuitive than comparing a list of station names.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>or selecting to build a bridge, and a competitor blocking the way
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that is handled in any way by the gui
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19:16<FauxFaux>Mmm, why must the estimation for land editing costs be so bad? Also, why is it more expensive (by a rediculously small ammount) to use the level tool than doing it by hand?
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19:19<DaleStan>FauxFaux: The first is probably a but, but the second is obviously that you're paying for convenience.
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19:45<FauxFaux>Heh DaleStan. Sorry, got a little distracted. /me -> have a closer look at the source.
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20:14<@TrueBrain>@seen Zuu
20:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 1 hour, 43 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Zuu> ... and is half of the program name..
20:26<FauxFaux>Hmm, can't register on the bug-tracker, it claims it can't send me a verification e-mail, with no further details given?
20:26<@TrueBrain>Special FauxFaux protection ;)
20:26<FauxFaux>Grr! :)
20:26<FauxFaux>"Cannot send your code, please try again later."
20:26<@TrueBrain>problem isolated
20:26<@TrueBrain>one sec
20:27<@TrueBrain>can you hit that button again please
20:28<FauxFaux>Hit.. waiting..
20:28<FauxFaux>Completely unexpected exception: There was a problem reading line 1 of an SMTP response. The response so far was:<br />[]. It appears the connection has died without saying goodbye to us! Too many emails in one go perhaps? (fsockopen: #0)
20:28<FauxFaux>This should never happend, please inform Flyspray Developers
20:28<@TrueBrain>yeah, I aborted you :p
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20:30<@TrueBrain>grr, the system is annoying me
20:30<FauxFaux>It's my mail-server at the other end, it's not something wrong with that, is it? Machine was rebooted earlier, but I've been getting spam.
20:30<@TrueBrain>something is claiming a port, and not releasing it
20:31<@TrueBrain>so I can't get the IP reconfiguring in ..
20:32<@TrueBrain>so there
20:32<@TrueBrain>now try it
20:32<FauxFaux>Thanks. :)
20:32<@TrueBrain>yw, and tnx for reporting :)
20:33<FauxFaux>I'd've filed a bug, but.. :)
20:33<@TrueBrain>many banned people in this channel
20:33-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*] by TrueBrain
20:34<@TrueBrain>FauxFaux: well, it is a bad thing you didn't already had ana ccount ;)
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20:35<@TrueBrain>welcome Eddi|zuHause
20:35<@TrueBrain>welcome a1270
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21:14<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14127 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Give the the player's colour to the waypoint window been shown
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 22 00:00:43 2008