#emc | Logs for 2005-04-08

[00:02:44] <robin_sz> wow ... it sounds like the new version of MS Office features some pretty advanced technology
[00:02:51] <robin_sz> apparently .. get this ...
[00:03:07] <robin_sz> it can sort emails by subject, sendor or date.
[00:03:15] <SWPadnos> whoa there
[00:03:19] <robin_sz> I know ...
[00:03:22] <robin_sz> hard to believe
[00:03:32] <SWPadnos> are you saying that I could change the order in which the messages are listed?
[00:03:45] <robin_sz> http://m3.doubleclick.net/790463/PID_30890_mrs04108_info_728x90.gif
[00:03:49] <SWPadnos> boy - that's better than pine 0.97b
[00:04:04] <SWPadnos> (or was that 0.09b?)
[00:04:12] <robin_sz> pretty advanced these MS guys ...
[00:04:33] <robin_sz> perhaps they get help from aliens??
[00:04:34] <SWPadnos> wow - hold on, let me click this header in Mozilla... :)
[00:05:03] <robin_sz> I was trying to think of a half decent mail package that *couldnt* do that ...
[00:05:09] <robin_sz> I mean .. even emacs can do that
[00:05:10] <SWPadnos> do you use Evolution (or mozilla or something else)?
[00:05:16] <robin_sz> kmail
[00:05:19] <SWPadnos> MS Office XP?
[00:05:23] <robin_sz> fsck no
[00:05:33] <SWPadnos> no - I wonder if it can do that :)
[00:05:48] <robin_sz> well, to find out,
[00:05:51] <SWPadnos> I wonder what they mean by "automatically"
[00:05:57] <robin_sz> I;d have to open up Outlook
[00:06:07] <robin_sz> and I'm not *that* stupid :)
[00:06:12] <SWPadnos> like - I'm thinking of a subject - put the related emails at the top of the list
[00:06:15] <SWPadnos> no way
[00:06:38] <robin_sz> perhaps they have discovered threading?
[00:06:50] <SWPadnos> on Windows - impossible
[00:06:53] <SWPadnos> (even for them)
[00:07:12] <robin_sz> of mail messages I meant
[00:07:20] <SWPadnos> oh - that
[00:07:29] <SWPadnos> you mean like Mozilla?
[00:07:34] <robin_sz> liek kmail
[00:07:36] <robin_sz> like ...
[00:07:38] <robin_sz> etc
[00:07:59] <robin_sz> I just found it amusing they could use such a basic feature in an advert
[00:08:02] <SWPadnos> one day I'll have to set up the internal linux server with IMAP
[00:08:08] <robin_sz> yeah
[00:08:18] <robin_sz> apt-get install courier
[00:08:38] <SWPadnos> I now have a fixed IP, so I'll be able to get mail remotely a bit easier
[00:08:44] <robin_sz> right
[00:08:46] <SWPadnos> courier - I'll look into that
[00:09:29] <robin_sz> courier-imap - Courier Mail Server - IMAP server
[00:09:29] <robin_sz> courier-imap-ssl - Courier Mail Server - IMAP over SSL
[00:09:43] <SWPadnos> I only remember Cyrus
[00:10:53] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - and the UW IMAP server
[00:11:06] <robin_sz> courier is pretty stable
[00:11:56] <SWPadnos> Presumably if I re-sync a laptop before traveling, there won't be a ton of data to move while I'm traveling
[00:12:30] <robin_sz> hopefully
[00:13:12] <SWPadnos> so I'd still ned fetchmail or one of those to get mail from our ISP and put it into the local mail store
[00:13:15] <SWPadnos> need
[00:13:40] <robin_sz> why not just delete all your mail with a script?
[00:13:55] <SWPadnos> because I'd like to read it :)
[00:14:05] <robin_sz> but you are using fetchmail ...
[00:14:13] <SWPadnos> not at the moment
[00:14:18] <robin_sz> ahh.
[00:14:25] <robin_sz> have you used it before?
[00:14:41] <SWPadnos> right now we have several computers (running Windows unfortunately), and we download mail to our individual machines
[00:14:51] <robin_sz> fetchmail ...
[00:14:53] <robin_sz> well
[00:15:01] <robin_sz> it randomly retrieves and then loses
[00:15:03] <robin_sz> mail
[00:15:07] <SWPadnos> I haven't used it, but I did some research on this subject a few years ago
[00:15:13] <robin_sz> its part of its core functionality
[00:15:31] <SWPadnos> core dys-functionality?
[00:15:37] <robin_sz> fetchmail --lose
[00:16:05] <robin_sz> thats the defualt setting, I dont think you can turn it off
[00:16:13] <SWPadnos> maybe I was thinking of popmail or something like that
[00:16:24] <robin_sz> maybe :)
[00:16:28] <SWPadnos> like "get mail from a pop server, and then route it locally"
[00:16:30] <A-L-P-H-A> pop goes the weasel.
[00:16:37] <SWPadnos> poop goes the weasel
[00:16:49] <A-L-P-H-A> on your lawn?
[00:17:01] <SWPadnos> in the lawn, I think :)
[00:17:02] <A-L-P-H-A> do we even have weasels this far north?
[00:17:10] <SWPadnos> only lawyers
[00:17:18] <A-L-P-H-A> I see.
[00:17:23] <A-L-P-H-A> what about politicians?
[00:17:28] <robin_sz> maybe a stoat?
[00:17:34] <A-L-P-H-A> but many politicians are lawyers as well.
[00:17:38] <SWPadnos> they're not as weasel-like this far north
[00:17:53] <robin_sz> you can tell a stoat from a weasel ...
[00:18:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't even know what a stoat is.
[00:18:13] <A-L-P-H-A> must be a brit thing
[00:18:22] <robin_sz> one is weasely recognised ...the other is stoatly different
[00:18:26] <robin_sz> its , well,
[00:18:29] <robin_sz> like a weasel
[00:18:47] <robin_sz> http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=stoat&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search
[00:18:50] <A-L-P-H-A> brits...
[00:22:58] <SWPadnos> heh - so, do you think a dual PPro Overdrive 333 system is fast enough to serve email for 2 users, plus a CVS server :)
[00:23:19] <robin_sz> depends ...
[00:23:31] <robin_sz> running *nix yes
[00:23:37] <robin_sz> running 'doze ...
[00:23:41] <robin_sz> bawahahahahah
[00:23:45] <SWPadnos> I do subscribe to Linux-Kernel, so the mail load is that of a mid-sized company :)
[00:24:09] <SWPadnos> yes - I'll let Gentoo compile for a week to get that extra millisecond of mail delivery performance :)
[00:24:11] <robin_sz> we bought a dell server once ...
[00:24:27] <SWPadnos> once
[00:24:31] <robin_sz> the rep wanted to know what we wanted it for ...
[00:24:41] <SWPadnos> doorstop
[00:24:57] <robin_sz> "web server, mail server, some custom apps, DNS, etc"
[00:25:06] <robin_sz> "about 2 million mails a month"
[00:25:34] <robin_sz> so we picked their smallest server .. which they assured us was not at all suited .. etc
[00:25:53] <robin_sz> and its been happiliy running at about 10% cpu load for years
[00:26:06] <SWPadnos> yep - 2M/month = 1 every 1.2 seconds
[00:26:12] <robin_sz> yeah, nothing
[00:26:18] <SWPadnos> I'd hope a computer with 3-digit CPU speed could handle that
[00:26:20] <asdfqwega> Gotta love *nix
[00:26:25] <SWPadnos> (or higher than 3 digits)
[00:26:44] <robin_sz> apache on a old 486 can fully pump a T1 anyway
[00:26:50] <SWPadnos> yep
[00:26:57] <asdfqwega> I'm using a Celeron 700 for everything right now
[00:27:04] <robin_sz> thi smachine is dual 1ghz P3s
[00:27:17] <SWPadnos> I was just looking at a review of Opteron boards and their gigabit performance - *wow*
[00:27:30] <robin_sz> and a gb of ram .. it rocks for us ...
[00:27:34] <asdfqwega> Plus, if I tried to have my entire mp3 collection on 'doze, it'd choke
[00:27:47] <robin_sz> just bought another dell for the rack ..
[00:27:49] <SWPadnos> only 16G here, so Win2k can handle it
[00:27:56] <asdfqwega> 512MB for me - seldom do I get above the halfway mark
[00:28:02] <robin_sz> a dula 3ghz emt64 Xeon box
[00:28:03] <SWPadnos> (16G of MP3 that is)
[00:28:17] <asdfqwega> About 60G of mp3'z here
[00:28:33] <SWPadnos> and all legal here :)
[00:28:37] <robin_sz> heh
[00:28:43] <asdfqwega> no comment
[00:28:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:29:03] <SWPadnos> I had an illegal MP2, but then I found the album on eBay
[00:29:07] <SWPadnos> MP3, that is
[00:29:13] <asdfqwega> My legal portion is about 20G - Ogg Vorbis, baby!
[00:29:28] <SWPadnos> I'd love to do that - I need to fix my damned portable first
[00:29:37] <robin_sz> I did a demo for some people once, of some application software, mod_perl on Apache ... had I think 6 clients on hired in PCs in a conference room ..
[00:29:48] <robin_sz> they all were impressed with the performance,
[00:30:01] <robin_sz> and being windows weenies expected to see a server ..
[00:30:02] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega queues up Apoptygma Berzerk
[00:30:08] <robin_sz> but it was all on my laptop :)
[00:30:13] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:30:20] <SWPadnos> (got Hunker Down playing right now)
[00:30:45] <robin_sz> a friend of min had a Tadpole ...
[00:30:51] <robin_sz> now .. that was cute
[00:30:56] <SWPadnos> ??
[00:31:15] <robin_sz> Tadpole .. the Sparc laptop
[00:31:22] <SWPadnos> ah -cool
[00:31:30] <robin_sz> http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/html/
[00:31:41] <robin_sz> fscking expensive though
[00:31:42] <SWPadnos> I so much wanted to get an Alpha system, but I couldn't afford it until they were cancelled
[00:32:32] <SWPadnos> heh - wouldn't one of those piss off my next customer :)
[00:33:34] <robin_sz> yeah
[00:33:47] <SWPadnos> but why would they have a 17" LCD at 1280x1024?
[00:33:53] <robin_sz> we tried to get a deal on some ex UK gov 16 proc alpha boxes
[00:34:04] <SWPadnos> that should be 1400x1050 at least
[00:35:11] <SWPadnos> wow - look at their major promotion!
[00:35:15] <robin_sz> not for Sun people
[00:35:24] <SWPadnos> charge only $1995 of the laptop on your credit card, and pay the rest over....
[00:35:27] <SWPadnos> 3 months
[00:35:29] <robin_sz> the Sparcle is their entry level machine
[00:35:30] <SWPadnos> woohoo
[00:35:38] <robin_sz> much cheaper than the rest
[00:35:50] <SWPadnos> I was looking at the dual bullfrog :)
[00:36:05] <robin_sz> perhpas most telling is they have options for offering financeing deals to government departments
[00:36:16] <robin_sz> they are THAT expensive
[00:36:22] <SWPadnos> yes "defense and government computers" ...
[00:38:14] <robin_sz> i think my friends one was worht �30K
[00:38:25] <robin_sz> well, thats what it cost anyway
[00:38:43] <SWPadnos> big difference there
[00:38:47] <robin_sz> yep
[00:38:57] <robin_sz> but all their products ran on solaris
[00:39:06] <robin_sz> so it was a demo necessity
[00:39:16] <SWPadnos> I actually have an ebay link to an Alpha CPU-related products search
[00:39:21] <robin_sz> heh
[00:39:21] <SWPadnos> a beroser link to ebay, that is
[00:39:31] <SWPadnos> browser
[00:39:39] <SWPadnos> only 11 items now
[01:17:37] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[01:49:25] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[01:49:41] <Jymmm> * Jymmm is now known as Jymmm
[03:50:43] <nevyn_> nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
[06:34:18] <alex_joni> morning
[07:19:12] <alex_joni> morning an0n
[07:19:17] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is around on and off
[07:20:56] <anonimasu> morning
[07:21:41] <anonimasu> hm, I just bought every PWM module the plc manufacturer could produce
[07:21:45] <alex_joni> lol
[07:21:49] <anonimasu> all prototypes.
[07:21:50] <anonimasu> :D
[07:22:47] <alex_joni> nice
[07:22:51] <alex_joni> any arrived?
[07:22:57] <anonimasu> middle ofnext week
[07:29:15] <anonimasu> it's pretty cool :)
[07:29:28] <alex_joni> got a link?
[07:29:35] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is building another wire feeder
[07:29:39] <alex_joni> no gecko this time :(
[07:30:05] <anonimasu> www.sigmatek.at
[07:30:25] <anonimasu> there isnt anything about the module..
[07:30:25] <anonimasu> :)
[07:30:35] <anonimasu> oo new
[07:30:36] <anonimasu> too
[07:30:56] <alex_joni> austrian?
[07:31:00] <anonimasu> yeah
[07:31:26] <alex_joni> oh yeah
[07:31:28] <alex_joni> nice servos
[07:31:45] <anonimasu> hehe the company we deal with sells servos..
[07:31:53] <anonimasu> LUST I think is the brand
[07:31:57] <alex_joni> LOST?
[07:31:59] <alex_joni> :))
[07:32:23] <anonimasu> hehe
[07:32:27] <alex_joni> lust is german for fun/keen smthg like that
[07:32:28] <anonimasu> www.sigbi.se
[07:33:14] <anonimasu> http://www.lust-antriebstechnik.de/
[07:33:40] <alex_joni> sigbi have an emc-filter ;)
[07:33:48] <anonimasu> hehe
[07:34:19] <alex_joni> going to do some work
[07:34:40] <anonimasu> ok
[07:34:41] <anonimasu> I am too
[07:34:43] <anonimasu> laters
[07:57:13] <A-L-P-H-A> morning folks!
[07:57:39] <anonimasu> morning alpha
[07:57:55] <A-L-P-H-A> so what are doing today?
[07:58:00] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm gonna make a poker table with a buddy.
[07:58:10] <A-L-P-H-A> you guys?
[07:59:00] <anonimasu> working
[08:01:42] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... seems like jymm hasn't been arond for a little bit.
[08:01:51] <A-L-P-H-A> I haven't heard incredibly silly ideas. :)
[08:03:19] <anonimasu> hehe
[08:03:40] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, you know what I mean though?
[08:03:49] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[08:04:55] <anonimasu> the only bad thing is that he kills discussions with comments like that..
[08:06:32] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to purchase a DA300 collet for 3mm
[08:06:35] <A-L-P-H-A> oh fun.
[08:07:24] <anonimasu> ?
[08:08:05] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.hardingetooling.com/PartSpec.asp?ID=18910017030000 that.
[08:08:19] <anonimasu> ok
[08:10:45] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, when you buy endmills, do you buy them in metric?
[08:10:59] <anonimasu> yeah, since I am in sweden :)
[08:11:23] <A-L-P-H-A> k, do you have knowledge how much 1mm dia 3mm shank endmills would cost?
[08:11:29] <anonimasu> no idea..
[08:11:35] <anonimasu> about 200 - 300 sek..
[08:11:35] <A-L-P-H-A> or could you call your supplier and find out?
[08:12:01] <A-L-P-H-A> what's that in Euros or US $, or CDN$?
[08:12:25] <anonimasu> ~30eur
[08:12:38] <A-L-P-H-A> EACH!?
[08:12:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:12:47] <A-L-P-H-A> OMFG.
[08:12:50] <anonimasu> dormer
[08:12:51] <anonimasu> :)
[08:12:58] <anonimasu> the carbide ones are 60eur each
[08:13:03] <anonimasu> about double
[08:13:15] <A-L-P-H-A> fine... but that still doesn't justify 10x my cost.
[08:13:22] <anonimasu> no
[08:13:23] <anonimasu> :)
[08:13:36] <anonimasu> the gh�ring ones I use are about the same..
[08:13:38] <anonimasu> slightly cheaper
[08:14:24] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.cetdirect.com/ I'm gonna order like $200USD from these guys... and I'll see how well they perform. They manufacture their own endmills.
[08:14:42] <A-L-P-H-A> 1mm dia x 3mmshank = $6.00USD.
[08:15:08] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.cetdirect.com/static/Articles/pdf/articles/CET2001.pdf
[08:15:08] <anonimasu> nice :)
[08:15:27] <A-L-P-H-A> if I break 10!!! that's like breaking one dormer.
[08:15:59] <A-L-P-H-A> dang. And I'm SURE the dormer is not going to last 10x longer than one of the CETs. Maybe 3x... but definitely not 10x.
[08:16:07] <anonimasu> hm, maybe..
[08:16:08] <anonimasu> :)
[08:16:19] <anonimasu> it lasted 10x longer then my cheapo endmills ;)
[08:16:43] <anonimasu> but thoose werent sharpened properly..
[08:16:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't think that these are cheapo carbides.
[08:17:02] <A-L-P-H-A> resharpened stuff? eew.
[08:17:05] <anonimasu> no
[08:17:11] <anonimasu> but they werent sharp to begin with..
[08:17:14] <A-L-P-H-A> sharpened from factory wrong?
[08:17:18] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:17:25] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... who manufactured those?
[08:17:33] <anonimasu> next time I buy somthing like that i'll bring a dormer one with me to the store ;)
[08:17:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I only have indexable lathe crap... or I sharpen my own HSS.
[08:17:43] <anonimasu> if they try to feel how sharp they are they'll cut their thumb off..
[08:17:51] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[08:18:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I love my dormer center drills.
[08:18:07] <anonimasu> that's about how different they are
[08:18:10] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:18:15] <A-L-P-H-A> I bought these cheap things... and they broke after two drills.
[08:18:26] <anonimasu> I only buy dormer because we have a dealer we deal lots with at work..
[08:18:27] <A-L-P-H-A> use the dormer... still sharp after lots of drills.
[08:19:01] <A-L-P-H-A> that's still expensive... but i can understand that your importing from states to Sweden... so shipping is gonna increase dramaticaly.
[08:19:04] <anonimasu> the other endmills I just bought at a hardware store
[08:19:36] <anonimasu> oh that's not the issue.. good endmills are expensive :)
[08:19:52] <A-L-P-H-A> good carbide inserts are expensive.
[08:19:56] <anonimasu> the cheap ones I bought was like 500sek for 10..
[08:20:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I have these DCMG series... and they cost $10-12USD each...
[08:20:08] <A-L-P-H-A> :(
[08:20:30] <anonimasu> I could buy seco aswell but thoose are super expensive
[08:20:35] <A-L-P-H-A> thought I've only got through like maybe 4, in two years... with fairly heavy use.
[08:20:40] <A-L-P-H-A> not production, but for a hobbiest.
[08:20:51] <anonimasu> http://www.secotools.com/template/start.asp?id=1927
[08:21:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I like my iscar... but that's the best i have to compare anything to.
[08:21:58] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't like valenite too much... doesn't have enough stuffness.
[08:22:31] <anonimasu> I have no idea what a iscar is
[08:22:32] <anonimasu> :)
[08:23:01] <A-L-P-H-A> iscarr / iscar some isreali brand of machine tools. Very very highquality stuff.
[08:23:09] <anonimasu> ah ok
[08:23:55] <A-L-P-H-A> like a bloody carbide indexable bit from them can go $30-50CDN/each... a simple lathe tool, could cost $200+
[08:24:09] <anonimasu> ah that's not loads..
[08:24:10] <anonimasu> :)
[08:24:16] <anonimasu> about the same as seco..
[08:24:35] <anonimasu> although for hobby it's hefty..
[08:24:45] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.iscar.com/ they gots lots of stuff.
[08:24:55] <A-L-P-H-A> oh yeah... very expensive for a hobbiest.
[08:26:08] <anonimasu> yep
[08:26:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a neightbour that has a nice lathe, but shit tools... so he can't accomplish much with his lathe. heh. But he's too cheap to buy good tools.
[08:26:57] <A-L-P-H-A> so what do I do... I bring my tools over there to use on his lathe, and he sees the difference immediately.
[08:27:57] <anonimasu> :D
[08:27:57] <anonimasu> neat
[08:28:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs now if I just could get a BT taper into my spindle..
[08:28:54] <A-L-P-H-A> CAT?
[08:29:03] <anonimasu> I have a morse taper..
[08:29:04] <anonimasu> :/
[08:29:26] <A-L-P-H-A> you still want that tool changer don't you?
[08:29:42] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:29:53] <anonimasu> and I hate hitting on the drawbar..
[08:30:06] <A-L-P-H-A> well... that's the standard proceedure.
[08:30:43] <anonimasu> yeah but I dont like it :)
[08:30:59] <anonimasu> machine-abuse
[08:31:07] <A-L-P-H-A> pnuematic clamps?
[08:31:28] <anonimasu> hm, no way to get anything like that in htere
[08:31:30] <anonimasu> there
[08:31:59] <anonimasu> maybe a special drawbar..
[08:32:15] <anonimasu> but grinding the inner of the retainer would be hard..
[08:32:26] <anonimasu> if not impossible..
[08:32:45] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.robotic-accessories.com/Pro_Too.htm
[08:33:20] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.ati-ia.com/products/toolchanger/robot_tool_changer.aspx
[08:33:42] <A-L-P-H-A> only problem is that it eats up your table space.
[08:34:01] <anonimasu> the actual changing isnt the trouble it's getting the tool out of the machine..
[08:34:01] <anonimasu> :/
[08:34:15] <A-L-P-H-A> I just showed you some products.
[08:34:27] <anonimasu> looking at them now
[08:34:47] <anonimasu> hm, I might have a idea..
[08:35:02] <anonimasu> although it requires machining a huydralic cylinder..
[08:35:20] <anonimasu> large area short stroke..
[08:35:44] <A-L-P-H-A> i'd made an adapter to a CAT30 system.
[08:36:10] <A-L-P-H-A> http://science.howstuffworks.com/question341.htm neat.
[08:36:48] <anonimasu> yep
[08:37:00] <anonimasu> how large are CAT30?
[08:37:15] <anonimasu> way too larget :/
[08:37:17] <anonimasu> googled for it
[08:38:30] <A-L-P-H-A> what's your limit?
[08:38:51] <anonimasu> er25 is the collet..
[08:39:03] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[08:39:07] <A-L-P-H-A> dunno.
[08:39:13] <anonimasu> it's a small morse taper..
[08:39:18] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, is this just for kicks? or actually for production use?
[08:39:20] <anonimasu> very \
[08:39:26] <anonimasu> just for kicks ;)
[08:39:32] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight then.
[08:39:40] <anonimasu> all production I can do will be done with a single endmill..
[08:39:44] <anonimasu> err I'll be doing
[08:39:50] <A-L-P-H-A> oh! know how some lathe drawbars work?
[08:39:56] <anonimasu> no
[08:40:00] <A-L-P-H-A> k...
[08:40:10] <A-L-P-H-A> it's like a clamp, and a spindle
[08:40:16] <A-L-P-H-A> each tool has it's own collet.
[08:40:30] <A-L-P-H-A> lets see.
[08:41:12] <A-L-P-H-A> k, the collets just push up into the spindle. and are held in place by pressure from underneigth
[08:41:23] <A-L-P-H-A> but the spin is allowed because of a bearing.
[08:44:16] <anonimasu> hm ok
[08:44:35] <A-L-P-H-A> back to sleep
[08:44:38] <anonimasu> want to see a drawing of what I had in mind?
[08:48:14] <anonimasu> ah well some other time
[11:19:30] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hears aluminum rusting!
[11:55:04] <anonimasu> les: morning
[11:55:11] <les> good morning
[11:55:57] <les> checking emails before breakfast
[11:56:48] <les> I had to shut down yeaterday evening to to bad storms
[11:56:55] <anonimasu> oh ok
[11:57:28] <anonimasu> annoying
[11:57:36] <les> my UPS battery is shot and the computer won't stay on if the power flickers
[11:57:43] <les> must rplace it
[11:58:45] <anonimasu> ok
[11:58:55] <les> well off to breakfast
[11:58:56] <les> bbl
[11:58:57] <anonimasu> I am looking at rs232 voltage level converter's..
[11:59:02] <anonimasu> for hacking my usb serial port..
[11:59:12] <les> oh 3 to 5v?
[11:59:13] <anonimasu> so I get real specs.. for the signals..
[11:59:15] <anonimasu> yeah
[11:59:20] <anonimasu> max232 somthing
[11:59:25] <anonimasu> but I am trying to find a schematic..
[11:59:52] <les> hmm
[12:00:03] <les> not hard to do
[12:00:24] <les> prob many chips made for that
[12:00:44] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:00:46] <les> or just use some 339 comparators or something
[12:00:58] <anonimasu> I have a too low voltage for running certaing things on the port..
[12:01:01] <anonimasu> programming AVR's..
[12:01:08] <paul_c> * paul_c thought rs232 was +/-12V
[12:01:25] <anonimasu> hm.. the usb ports dosent give that much power :)
[12:01:32] <les> I honestly don't know
[12:01:34] <anonimasu> atleast that's what I think is the error..
[12:01:54] <les> but 3 to +/-12 is no big deal either
[12:02:30] <anonimasu> nope
[12:02:31] <les> anon...many usb ports do not give the full current spec
[12:02:37] <les> perticularly laptops
[12:02:52] <les> particularly
[12:02:54] <anonimasu> mine dosent but I think it's the adapter that wont push more current out the port..
[12:03:09] <paul_c> max232 includes a carge pump to provide the 12V supplies
[12:03:25] <paul_c> (add a 'h' where appropriate)
[12:03:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:03:38] <anonimasu> that should do it...
[12:03:45] <anonimasu> just solder it to the tx and rx pins..
[12:03:53] <les> usb has ptc thermistors usually to drop the voltage if too much current is requested
[12:04:18] <anonimasu> I have a usb power outlet also..
[12:04:21] <anonimasu> for more power.. if I need it..
[12:04:28] <anonimasu> although I've yet to see a connector for it..
[12:04:33] <anonimasu> but I guess it could be done..
[12:05:07] <les> I had to use an external supply with these labjack usb stepper things I made
[12:05:24] <les> usb was not enough for NEMA 17 steppers
[12:05:53] <anonimasu> heh dont you need loads of current for steppers..
[12:06:41] <les> but these are for use specifically with laptops
[12:07:02] <anonimasu> the steppers?
[12:07:03] <les> thet often can only put out 10 ma or so
[12:07:07] <les> yeah
[12:07:37] <les> I had to run the steppers at close to an amp
[12:07:43] <anonimasu> heh
[12:07:45] <anonimasu> might be a reason
[12:07:51] <les> yup
[12:08:41] <les> The labjack and step multiplier run from usb power though
[12:09:17] <anonimasu> yeah but that's just a ic isnt it?
[12:09:25] <les> right
[12:09:52] <anonimasu> anyway I need to work a bit
[12:09:55] <anonimasu> enjoy your breakfast
[12:09:59] <les> just TTl levels
[12:10:04] <les> ok thanks
[12:10:06] <les> bbl
[13:00:52] <anonimasu> hm does anyone have experience machining acrylics?
[13:01:10] <SWPadnos> no - but I can tell you about RS-232 :)
[13:01:30] <anonimasu> lol
[13:01:44] <anonimasu> it's less important ;)
[13:01:53] <SWPadnos> of course :)
[13:02:43] <anonimasu> well I'll try it.. it'll solve itself eventually
[13:02:56] <anonimasu> how's it going?
[13:03:20] <SWPadnos> Going fine, I think
[13:04:28] <asdf-meep> asdf-meep is now known as asdfqwega
[13:53:50] <paul_c> Morning Steve
[13:54:03] <stevestallings> Hi Paul
[13:58:11] <paul_c> Darn... Just realised.. 12 days to go.
[13:58:40] <stevestallings> Yes and I have two PCB designs to finish before the show...
[13:58:53] <rayh> It is rushing up on us.
[14:07:00] <paul_c> reckon I'll still be writing notes on the plane over..
[14:17:40] <anonimasu> hm
[14:18:01] <anonimasu> it seems liek I can fit a toolchanger..or a homebuilt drawbar..
[14:18:15] <anonimasu> there's a adaptor on the mill somthing > er32
[14:18:57] <Bowika> Is there any program which can represent the emc2 hal configuration (structure) in an X graphical screen?
[14:25:19] <paul_c> jmk had talked about using gEDA, but that is a sledgehammer to crack a peanut in my opinion.
[14:29:10] <Bowika> yes...
[14:31:26] <Bowika> is there any schematic about the relation of the emc2 modules? .'cause it is easier to understand what relation there are among each files/modules.
[14:32:17] <paul_c> I think jmk had some diagrams on his home page, but I don't have a URL for it..
[14:35:45] <stevestallings> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Control_LG.gif
[14:38:55] <SWPadnos> that's a great graphic - thanks.
[14:40:00] <stevestallings> The thanks go to John Kasunich who, sharing our flustration, decided to try to diagram the flow even though he did not claim to fully understand it.
[14:40:33] <SWPadnos> well - it clarifies some things that were perplexing to me, so I like it :)
[14:41:14] <SWPadnos> There probably should be some likns between the RT and non-RT I/O sctions, but otherwise it looks pretty good.
[14:41:19] <SWPadnos> links, that is
[14:42:02] <SWPadnos> though those can technically go from emcio up to the task controller, and back down to the RT side
[14:43:35] <Bowika> thanks, that is it
[14:46:00] <Bowika> now this is my best wallpaper :)
[14:53:31] <anonimasu> :)
[15:09:43] <dmess> Hello all...
[15:12:28] <SWPadnos> h ithere
[15:25:31] <les> I was just exploring corner slow down in segmentqueue
[15:25:41] <les> this is a must at high speeds
[15:26:01] <les> but it could be done by a cam program rather than the controller
[15:26:02] <dmess> whats it look like??
[15:26:07] <les> however most don't
[15:26:16] <anonimasu> hm mastercam does ;)
[15:26:31] <dmess> post could but look ahead would be better
[15:26:35] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:26:36] <anonimasu> agreed
[15:26:47] <les> well segmentqueue has no corner slowdown unless it happens to be the end of a set of linked segments
[15:27:05] <les> yeas anon mastercam does have that
[15:27:31] <dmess> does seg que keep current pos'n registry
[15:27:41] <anonimasu> les: could you do somthing like
[15:27:48] <les> dmess: yes
[15:28:16] <anonimasu> if ( corner(seg[x+2]) == TRUE ) decrease_feed();
[15:28:34] <anonimasu> or would you need or well x+somthing depending on the need for lookahead..
[15:28:46] <anonimasu> you can calculate how much lookahead you need depending on the speed you run at
[15:29:00] <dmess> could you chk the vecto from current to last and current to next pon's to see if its acute or obstuse
[15:29:07] <les> well corner slowdown in general looks ahead for acutness of corner angles....
[15:29:14] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:29:21] <les> and calculates chordal error
[15:29:33] <les> given a max allowed chordal error
[15:29:57] <les> a fairly simple c program could add slowing to existing g code programs
[15:30:05] <les> I think fairly simple
[15:30:32] <les> it's the parsing of all allowed gcode formats that is a bit of busy work
[15:30:37] <dmess> vary speed proportionatly to the degree of acutness and come back inversly..
[15:31:06] <les> but adding points and different feeds to slow down before a corner would be easy
[15:31:23] <les> dmess: right
[15:31:50] <dmess> but having a decent high speed algirithm in the system would be nice..
[15:31:59] <les> speed is inverse square to chordal error
[15:32:26] <les> well if it is post processing the g code it could be done before even loading
[15:32:28] <dmess> i studied uder Dr. Momuchi from Toshiba Japan...
[15:32:31] <les> question is
[15:32:40] <les> should the controller do it?
[15:33:02] <les> what did you study dmess
[15:33:32] <dmess> we should be able to feed G code with max feeds to the machine and it NOT destoy itself TRYING to do what it cant...
[15:33:40] <anonimasu> yes I think the controller should do that..
[15:33:44] <dmess> HSM
[15:33:48] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[15:33:54] <les> hmmm
[15:34:16] <les> well it would require an ini entry
[15:34:22] <les> something
[15:34:35] <dmess> their weapon of choice in Japan for HSM is a 3mm ballnose..
[15:34:51] <les> max chordal error or something
[15:34:55] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:35:11] <les> really a cam system cannot do it time optimally
[15:35:11] <dmess> anyone ever use APT??
[15:35:26] <les> because it does not know tha accel of the machine
[15:35:37] <les> I have not used apt
[15:35:40] <dmess> INTOL,OUTTOL...
[15:35:46] <les> ah
[15:36:18] <anonimasu> les with the mastercam thing you enter corner G's and things
[15:36:29] <anonimasu> and max accelerations..
[15:36:37] <anonimasu> although it's not somthing us humans can afford to run ;)
[15:36:43] <les> anyway if segmentqueue ends up fixed and functional...
[15:36:47] <dmess> imagine a cylinder of tolerance ,(outol) radius from last to current.. then to next
[15:37:20] <les> corner slowing is absolutely required to do efficient highspeed machining
[15:37:25] <anonimasu> yep
[15:37:30] <les> yup
[15:37:48] <dmess> is it addable??
[15:37:50] <les> mastecam and I think visualmill have corner slowing
[15:38:05] <les> dmess: yes it is
[15:38:15] <les> a corner test....
[15:38:30] <les> and using existing feed over ride
[15:38:39] <dmess> any good postprocessor..can add it to g-code but it makes posting time intensive..
[15:38:58] <anonimasu> I hm, yeah
[15:39:00] <les> no I take that back...feed overrides don't happen till the next set of linked segments
[15:39:12] <les> which is often the whole program!
[15:39:46] <dmess> existing feed overide is NOT a HSM function.. machine ist necessaily cutting perfect part optimally.
[15:40:58] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:40:59] <les> well...I must have corner slowing from somewhere
[15:41:06] <dmess> ideally HSM module should accept feedback from spindle..
[15:41:24] <les> yes for constant chip load
[15:41:52] <les> chip load gets too low in a slowdown
[15:42:02] <les> but as long as it cuts
[15:42:23] <les> one would not want to slow down the whole program to that speed
[15:43:06] <dmess> right... but spindle speed should drop tp keep chip load constant..
[15:43:16] <les> yes
[15:43:48] <les> often not practical though...many spindles are high inertia and going at 20,000+ rpm
[15:44:27] <les> I think the easiest way to make a corner slowing postprocessor (not in the control)
[15:44:30] <dmess> the F-mach min. speed was 8000 went to 60000 and it sang and danced.
[15:45:01] <les> would be to use the emc stand alone interpreter
[15:45:20] <les> and have cannonicals write extra blocks to the g code file
[15:45:29] <dmess> Toshiba 888 - Shape module
[15:45:47] <les> 8000 to 60000 wow
[15:46:02] <dmess> but the you need to support WHO's g-code as input??
[15:46:19] <les> exactly
[15:46:20] <dmess> feed to 4 m/min
[15:46:40] <les> the emc interpreter will read many formats
[15:46:47] <anonimasu> hm that dosent sound too fast..
[15:47:07] <dmess> throw it into the motion control.. and let the machine be an HSM control outta the shed...
[15:47:25] <anonimasu> 66mm/s
[15:47:43] <dmess> and contour...
[15:47:52] <les> That's the work when making a parser...dealing with abbreviations, case, order, all the things allowed in rs274
[15:48:02] <anonimasu> yep
[15:48:08] <les> emc's interpreter does a pretty good job
[15:48:14] <anonimasu> the control still has to deal with it I think a parser would just be a hack
[15:48:40] <les> well it would be a separate program completely
[15:48:56] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:48:57] <les> hence the question of whether the control should do it
[15:49:02] <anonimasu> yep
[15:49:17] <dmess> if we deal with it from th motion control side it makes No change to the front
[15:49:26] <SWPadnos> It seems to me that the slowing algorithm would have to look a certain *distance* ahead, not a specific number of segments
[15:49:48] <SWPadnos> since the machine accel determines the distance needed to change speed
[15:49:53] <les> yes swp that is right I think
[15:50:52] <SWPadnos> and then it just (famous last word :) ) becomes a matter of choosing an accel slope at the right time
[15:50:55] <dmess> so a toerane bubble could be used to establis vector and detemine traj & speed change requirements.
[15:50:57] <les> it would need to do corner checks BEFORE segment linking and calculate time to the next critical corner
[15:51:01] <dmess> tolerance
[15:51:10] <les> yes
[15:51:20] <les> well if one number...
[15:51:34] <les> max chordal deviation would be it I think
[15:51:41] <SWPadnos> segment linking == grouping segments that should have a smooth contour between them?
[15:51:57] <SWPadnos> versus segments that describe eg. a corner (a disjoint)?
[15:51:59] <les> kinda
[15:52:23] <dmess> ok..splining... per say..
[15:52:46] <les> conventional s-curve stuff blends individual segments one at a time...so...
[15:52:52] <SWPadnos> OK - the differnece between a smooth node and a corner node in a bezier or such (in Corel Draw)
[15:52:56] <dmess> checking for inflections and adjusting for them
[15:53:03] <les> it requires 4 pt look ahead for cubic
[15:53:34] <les> what that means is the cubic coefficients change after each waypoint
[15:53:39] <dmess> do we have 4 pt look ahead in seg que
[15:54:03] <les> segmentqueue is a bit more sophisticated as I understand it
[15:54:20] <SWPadnos> yes - the coefficients area window that gets shifted through the segments (sort of)
[15:54:33] <dmess> how about carrying nurb info instead??
[15:54:40] <les> it can find a cubic that covers multiple segments without changing coefficients
[15:54:59] <les> by some heuristic
[15:55:00] <les> so
[15:55:18] <les> segmentqueue look ahead sometimes can be the entire program
[15:55:33] <SWPadnos> that seems non-optimal :)
[15:55:33] <les> usually not
[15:55:40] <les> but it's possible
[15:56:00] <dmess> so the first derivative of the rates of change would give inflections as )
[15:56:02] <dmess> 0
[15:56:10] <les> segmentqueue is not time optimal
[15:56:11] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't need to look further than the second point after the endpoint of the current segment
[15:56:48] <les> well depending on the spline order
[15:57:07] <les> order+1 total points needed
[15:57:09] <dmess> no look ahead as far as possible... but process what you've looked at to be optimized...
[15:57:49] <les> right now queue size is coded to be max 500
[15:57:57] <les> but it can be changed
[15:58:00] <dmess> say you worked from kinematics BACKWARDS...
[15:58:28] <les> dmess brings up a point I should mention:
[15:58:32] <dmess> set max accel/decel to 1.5 G
[15:58:47] <les> it seems segmentqueue is only good for trivial kinematics
[15:59:08] <les> unfortunately
[15:59:10] <les> but
[15:59:17] <les> i'll take it!!
[15:59:18] <dmess> use motion control to GET 1.5 G out of the machine... NOT the postprocessors...
[15:59:35] <les> well yes
[15:59:42] <les> mine is max 1g
[15:59:48] <les> I derate to .5
[16:00:13] <les> 1g is just where it runs out of force
[16:00:25] <dmess> dont get me wrong ive made pretty good $$ writing posts for folks... but trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear is difficult..
[16:00:38] <les> sure
[16:01:07] <dmess> i doubt your machine experiences anywhere near 1 G
[16:01:25] <les> No where near dmess
[16:01:36] <les> the old TP will not permit it
[16:01:47] <les> it would tear the machine to peices
[16:02:04] <dmess> we had a machine capabe of doing orbital boring...and it WOULD do 2 G and it was SCARRY...
[16:02:14] <SWPadnos> I'd love to see my Bridgeport do 1G
[16:02:21] <SWPadnos> it's on wheels at the moment :)
[16:02:32] <dmess> Everyone wanted to see it run... but they would run in fear as it stated up
[16:02:45] <les> however it has 2200 lbforce on x axis at max amp current
[16:02:57] <les> and is built to take that force
[16:03:11] <les> although it doesn't do it any good...
[16:04:07] <les> Ig is 386 in/sec^2....
[16:04:36] <les> few can run past about 50 without severe hurky jerkies with the old TP
[16:05:13] <les> segmentqueue is meant to cure that
[16:05:28] <SWPadnos> higher speeds and shorter segments combine to forma real problem in trajectory planning
[16:05:31] <dmess> so its a buffer of sorts??
[16:05:48] <les> SWP: yeah
[16:06:16] <les> dmess: it is just a trajectory plan where velocity always has a derivative
[16:06:44] <SWPadnos> now that makes sense to me, but I need to look at the code to see why it has to look so far ahead
[16:07:16] <les> SWP: it does not have to to give velocity a derivative
[16:07:34] <SWPadnos> it makes for smoother direction changes
[16:07:38] <les> It was just the philosophy of the code
[16:07:41] <dmess> well if the change in that derivatve is large it should slow down next seg
[16:08:13] <les> might
[16:08:57] <les> See with the old trapezoidal planner each segment had a velocity discontinuity
[16:09:18] <dmess> it is large bcz it is being smoothed and as such it should be slowed down
[16:09:27] <SWPadnos> segment being a G-code piece, or a servo update cycle piece?
[16:09:28] <les> so eachsegment accel would max out
[16:09:36] <les> talk about shaky...
[16:09:58] <les> segment being a g-code piece
[16:10:02] <SWPadnos> OK
[16:10:31] <SWPadnos> Given that you know the current velocity and the expected velocity of the next segment, you know the velocity difference
[16:10:58] <SWPadnos> Knowing how long it will take to get to that point, you now know the acceleration needed to make it happen
[16:11:06] <les> yes
[16:11:24] <dmess> or use inverse time from there
[16:11:27] <SWPadnos> You can then use a slowly changing acceleration to get there "smoother"
[16:11:45] <les> there are specific calcs for the initial, final, and end zone conditions
[16:12:05] <SWPadnos> but then you need to balance the errors in requested contouring velocity with the requested endpoint position
[16:12:11] <les> yes cubic means accel is bounded
[16:12:35] <les> SWP: yes
[16:12:46] <SWPadnos> that's the PITA to me
[16:13:00] <les> this is done by solving a 6x6 matrix
[16:13:04] <dmess> its ALL calculateable...
[16:13:05] <les> closed form
[16:13:10] <les> but it is diagonal
[16:13:28] <les> yess all caculable
[16:13:37] <les> even quintic and beyond
[16:13:54] <dmess> eng 2nd language classes later today
[16:14:01] <les> calculable? heh
[16:14:02] <SWPadnos> I'll need to look back at my math books :)
[16:14:54] <SWPadnos> OT: linear force = T * 2 * pi / lead, right?
[16:14:59] <les> yeah SWP I have to open my old robotics text from engineering school to see the trap, cubic, and quintic solutions
[16:15:20] <SWPadnos> I can get my mother involved if necessary (but I'd rather not :) )
[16:15:22] <les> ah let's see... yeah
[16:15:42] <les> brb phone
[16:15:48] <SWPadnos> ok
[16:15:56] <anonimasu> re.
[16:16:03] <SWPadnos> re: what?
[16:16:14] <anonimasu> my connet died..
[16:16:19] <dmess> if the slope change between any 3 pts is =< slopechange of current pt and imaginary pt at distance tolerance away from current in front and behind go fast if not slow down
[16:16:20] <anonimasu> connection..
[16:16:22] <SWPadnos> I hate when that happens
[16:16:36] <anonimasu> the router locked up and still isnt online
[16:16:50] <SWPadnos> behind shouldn't matter except for planning.
[16:17:21] <SWPadnos> wait - scratch that - the current value is an amalgamation of all previous planning, and should be able to be the start point for any accel calculations
[16:17:33] <SWPadnos> (but I could be wrong :) )
[16:34:52] <dmess> yee haa... dmess just got confirmation of a new contract with Messier-Dowty Aerospace... ; )
[16:42:55] <les> hmmm miller welding called...may have to do some stuff for them
[16:43:00] <les> new contract?
[16:46:43] <les> anyway...SWP: here is an ok paper on TP
[16:46:46] <les> http://batman.mech.ubc.ca/~ial/publication/theses/sonja.pdf
[16:47:21] <les> also Rogier Blom's paper is on SF emc as well
[16:52:38] <alex_joni> hello
[16:53:34] <SWPadnos> thanks, les - I'll read later
[16:53:44] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is on the phone
[16:54:05] <alex_joni> poor phone
[16:58:05] <les> heh
[17:00:56] <les> lunch for me
[17:01:15] <alex_joni> enjoy
[17:01:23] <les> ty biab
[17:38:39] <kris_jensen> anyone here use the vital systems board?
[17:39:04] <alex_joni> kris_jensen: what do you want to know?
[17:39:21] <kris_jensen> well, i'm fumbling around looking for the source or a prebuilt vitalmod.o
[17:39:30] <alex_joni> what emc?
[17:39:40] <kris_jensen> bdi
[17:39:44] <alex_joni> which bdi?
[17:39:51] <kris_jensen> one sec
[17:41:01] <les> kris do you have a vital card?
[17:41:43] <kris_jensen> ya i have the card
[17:41:54] <les> great
[17:41:57] <kris_jensen> and i modoified the test program to get the motors and encoders working
[17:42:10] <les> motors on a bench?
[17:42:14] <kris_jensen> so i know the hardware is sound
[17:42:16] <kris_jensen> ya at the moment
[17:42:47] <les> currently I think one cnc is operational with the motenc
[17:42:56] <les> so you might be number two
[17:43:03] <les> in the whole world
[17:43:08] <kris_jensen> o really
[17:43:19] <les> Last I heard yeah
[17:43:31] <kris_jensen> is there an operational motor driver prog?
[17:43:40] <les> but the price is very attractive
[17:43:57] <les> I think the motenc is driving copley amps
[17:43:58] <kris_jensen> ya, the card is nice and inexpensive
[17:44:12] <les> 570 is better than 888
[17:44:17] <kris_jensen> only thing i wonder about is what are the xilinx chips doing
[17:44:31] <les> who knows heh
[17:44:46] <kris_jensen> becuase this is a rather simple board, i have worries about fgpa's doing too much
[17:44:52] <kris_jensen> err fpgs
[17:44:56] <kris_jensen> bleh can't type fpga
[17:44:58] <alex_joni> is it pci?
[17:45:00] <kris_jensen> ya
[17:45:10] <alex_joni> might do pci decoding & such
[17:45:21] <les> Just so it can do 2000+ servo updates/sec
[17:45:28] <les> preferably more
[17:45:29] <kris_jensen> maybe
[17:45:48] <kris_jensen> i think there was a pci-pci chip on there
[17:46:35] <kris_jensen> is there a version check prog or file for emc?
[17:48:45] <Jymmm> les !
[17:49:10] <les> hi jymmm
[17:49:50] <Jymmm> les I was reading your post... can you really use a dc motor from a treadmill as a servo?
[17:50:12] <les> not sure about version check...I use a year old build that I have changed somewhat
[17:50:34] <les> jymm...I think so within limits
[17:50:50] <les> inertia might be higher
[17:50:59] <les> and cogging a bit grater
[17:51:00] <Jymmm> les Oh, you haven't tried it yet?!
[17:51:08] <les> just so it is bidirectionel
[17:51:13] <les> I have
[17:51:24] <les> I have used treadmill motors with encoders
[17:51:35] <les> bluh spelling
[17:52:04] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[17:52:10] <les> over 5 years ago
[17:52:23] <les> some are better than others
[17:52:33] <kris_jensen> am i correct in assuming the vital.c is the vital system card driver? if so, are there directions on compiling it ?
[17:52:37] <les> some treadmills use Pac Sci servos!
[17:52:58] <Jymmm> oh, didn't know that.
[17:53:35] <les> Someone here can tell you (not me) Paul_c can help you out
[17:53:53] <kris_jensen> ya i see his name all over the source, ill leave him a message, thanks
[17:53:59] <alex_joni> kris_jensen: what bdi d you have?
[17:54:10] <kris_jensen> where do i find the version?
[17:54:21] <alex_joni> on the iso you burned?
[17:54:22] <alex_joni> :D
[17:54:42] <alex_joni> did you install the latest debian based?
[17:54:46] <kris_jensen> let me put the disk in, coulnd't find a file heh
[17:54:48] <kris_jensen> yes i did
[17:54:49] <dmess> im back... had to go register the business name again..
[17:55:07] <alex_joni> might not have vital working then.. give me a minute to check
[17:55:12] <kris_jensen> k
[17:55:23] <kris_jensen> bdi-4
[17:55:38] <dmess> theres a 4.18 and a 4.2
[17:55:46] <kris_jensen> 4.18
[17:56:54] <alex_joni> kris_jensen: bdi-4.18 is the latest
[17:56:58] <alex_joni> hi rayh
[17:57:10] <rayh> Hi alex.
[17:57:16] <alex_joni> kris_jensen: checking now for vital stuff on it
[17:57:19] <kris_jensen> thanks
[17:59:27] <alex_joni> kris_jensen: do you have the sources
[17:59:46] <alex_joni> ?
[17:59:51] <kris_jensen> no, but i'm looking at the cvs atm. I will grab them when i get back from lunch
[18:00:13] <alex_joni> make sure you look at the bdi-4 branch in CVS
[18:00:17] <kris_jensen> k
[18:00:19] <alex_joni> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Install
[18:00:37] <SWPadnos> BDI-4.20 is the latest, I think
[18:00:40] <dmess> http://www.messier-dowty.com/programs/787.asp ... this new contract should lead to an exciting year...
[18:00:42] <alex_joni> SWP: right
[18:00:56] <alex_joni> I even have it on my mirror
[18:00:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is tired
[18:01:02] <kris_jensen> excellent, thanks ale
[18:01:04] <kris_jensen> *alex
[18:01:16] <dmess> i even used his mirrir.. ; )
[18:01:19] <SWPadnos> dmess: is that a different name for the 7E7?
[18:01:23] <alex_joni> thank paul_c, as he is the one that did all the great work
[18:01:25] <kris_jensen> ill grab the code and get a working compile working here
[18:01:29] <alex_joni> dmess: how did it work?
[18:01:34] <SWPadnos> yes you do - and I have it on mine as well :)
[18:02:09] <dmess> IT was fine... GRUB sucks... bites is a pile a poop...
[18:02:18] <alex_joni> lol
[18:02:29] <alex_joni> was talking about the download though :D
[18:02:30] <dmess> SWP.. not sure isnt that the cargo 777
[18:03:17] <SWPadnos> nope
[18:03:19] <dmess> i prorammed the upper and lower torsion members for the 777
[18:03:29] <les> really
[18:03:33] <dmess> SI
[18:03:44] <dmess> thats spais for yes
[18:03:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni cancells his flights
[18:03:47] <les> I did the cockpit annunciator optics
[18:03:51] <les> haha
[18:03:56] <alex_joni> lol
[18:03:57] <dmess> cool.. reall..
[18:03:58] <SWPadnos> heh - my mother does neural net stuff for Goodrich - they have some 7E7 contracts I think
[18:04:07] <alex_joni> just kidding
[18:04:37] <les> What a "crash" program heheh
[18:04:48] <dmess> i hear ya...LOL
[18:04:52] <les> I recall many many overnighters
[18:05:20] <les> I swore never to work on a Boeing subcontract again.
[18:05:46] <dmess> i was sub=ing for a place 150 miles away... made it there n 69 minutes one night...
[18:05:56] <les> heh
[18:06:27] <dmess> all associative apt... writhe with Q-edit...
[18:06:39] <les> wow
[18:06:46] <les> and quite a while ago
[18:07:08] <dmess> written even.. as you see with ym typing apt syntax rules were a biatch
[18:07:32] <les> SWP: so you know see the ins and outs of trajectory planning?
[18:07:43] <les> fun stuff eh?
[18:08:31] <dmess> till spmeone loses an eye... or the grey matter starts to ooze onto the floor and mix with the coffee
[18:08:47] <dmess> cuz those stains'll never come out..
[18:08:49] <SWPadnos> heh it's all fun to me
[18:08:53] <les> There is only one thing I cannot understand about the segmentqueue
[18:08:54] <SWPadnos> (until I get some paying work)
[18:09:04] <les> why was it not done in user space?
[18:09:15] <SWPadnos> I haven't read those papers yet - is the plane ride to Fest too late? :)
[18:09:22] <dmess> hats user space??
[18:09:23] <les> heh no
[18:09:26] <dmess> whats?
[18:09:34] <les> noy real time
[18:09:37] <les> not
[18:10:40] <les> segmentqueue is done in real time...and I do not understand why
[18:10:42] <SWPadnos> user = non-kernel, but not necessarily non-realtime
[18:10:53] <les> I stand corrected
[18:11:30] <dmess> if im understanding you then userspace COULD be used to pre-process parsed movements in order to feed seg-que and the r/t system a kinematically mapped version of what it sees now
[18:11:56] <SWPadnos> that's doable, but requires consideration of pause/resume functionality
[18:12:14] <les> I wondered about that too....
[18:12:24] <dmess> pause.resume is a r/t adventur...
[18:12:37] <les> Rogier used max feed overide value for all calculations
[18:13:12] <les> So it would seem it could be valid (but sub optimal) to use lesser values during thre run
[18:13:17] <SWPadnos> it's also planner related, since the velocities are changed by pausing
[18:13:26] <dmess> pause should be deines as a pseudo-e/stop
[18:14:00] <dmess> defined
[18:14:10] <SWPadnos> in any case, you still need to account for a new acceleration profile once the machine has stopped
[18:14:25] <les> I use pause a great deal
[18:14:28] <les> tool changes
[18:14:42] <dmess> yes...why.. use an m00
[18:14:49] <les> right
[18:14:54] <SWPadnos> so you'd have to recalculate the next X segments when you resume, then it would fit with the precalculated profile
[18:14:59] <dmess> as it was meant to be used.. i use 2 m00
[18:15:16] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking of user pause / resume - like a big yellow button on a pendant
[18:15:45] <dmess> its a feed hold.. or lets screw up a good part button...
[18:16:07] <SWPadnos> OK - whatever you want to call it :)
[18:16:09] <les> Rogier seems to indicate that if max overide feed is used in the initial calculations then the queue won't have to be recalculated with a lesser feed
[18:16:13] <les> just scaled
[18:16:30] <dmess> dropping feed using feed overide is easier to save a good looking part
[18:16:38] <SWPadnos> right - you can always scale down, but you'll be limited by machine capabilities if you want to scale up
[18:16:44] <les> right
[18:17:07] <les> and scaling down would depart further from being time optimal
[18:17:17] <les> but it is not time optimal anyway
[18:17:35] <dmess> but you'll be scaling down stuff you want kept @ max...for sake of the slowest corner
[18:17:51] <SWPadnos> no - his calculations probably don't take cutting force into account - they would be what the machine is theoretically capable of
[18:19:24] <les> Last I checked a feed over ride /pause did not occur till the end of the current segment
[18:19:29] <dmess> you will still be scaling a kinematically transformed segment... and therfore its top end will NEVER be 100% capability
[18:19:32] <les> which might be a long time
[18:19:46] <dmess> unless you lie about its capabilities...
[18:19:51] <les> right
[18:20:34] <les> well it's stated that it's "sub optimal"
[18:20:45] <les> most are
[18:20:49] <SWPadnos> so if there's a 12" circle being cut in one G-code line at 1 IPM, a pause won't happen until the entire 37 minutes has elapsed?
[18:20:56] <les> to reduce calculations I guess
[18:21:04] <les> particularly with quintic
[18:21:08] <dmess> you dont want a scale of it ann its directly related to the change in slope of 2 adjascent segments
[18:21:30] <les> SWP unless chris changed it yes I think so
[18:22:04] <dmess> hit e-stop then...
[18:22:09] <les> yup
[18:22:33] <SWPadnos> urk
[18:22:38] <les> yeah
[18:22:40] <dmess> then its more of a single block button than a pause
[18:22:43] <alex_joni> can you resume after estop?
[18:22:53] <alex_joni> you should..
[18:22:57] <cradek> les: have you tried this lately? I thought pause worked better than that.
[18:23:01] <SWPadnos> not really, since e-stop usually means that somebody's going to get hurt
[18:23:12] <les> not easily
[18:23:21] <SWPadnos> This goes back to several discussions on CCED regarding stop types
[18:23:22] <cradek> les: of course, I could try it too, but I didn't before asking.
[18:23:32] <les> hi chris
[18:23:56] <les> before your mods it kept going quite a while after a feed change
[18:24:15] <dmess> pause should be a feed hold... e-stop... you mean it... STOP
[18:24:45] <SWPadnos> no - there are different things that you want to do for estop
[18:25:05] <alex_joni> dmess: I agree
[18:25:14] <SWPadnos> pause is a "level 1" stop - just wait, but maintain position and feedback
[18:25:15] <alex_joni> ESTOP is just EMERGENCY STOP
[18:25:17] <rayh> dmess: That is why I implemented a feedhold in Mini.
[18:25:20] <les> of course any g0 should cause a zero motion end point and pause there with an M00
[18:25:23] <alex_joni> as in : bloody STOP
[18:25:44] <SWPadnos> right, and for most machines, that means "turn off the power to the motors" - not "wait here while I vacuum some chipsout of the way"
[18:25:46] <les> On mine I have it set up that a software estop disables the servo amps
[18:25:56] <dmess> e-stop in this country has to Mechanically disconnect power to all drives excpt for brake holing power
[18:26:24] <SWPadnos> exactly - that's something you don't want to do when the operator just wants to vacuum chipes or change a tool
[18:26:46] <les> I have hard estop buttons as well...they actually disconnect then brake the servos, and shut down the spindle
[18:26:57] <alex_joni> dmess: yes
[18:27:00] <SWPadnos> for a true estop, you don't care about losing position. for pause / resume, you do
[18:27:06] <rayh> Estop does not have to loose position though.
[18:27:07] <les> right
[18:27:16] <alex_joni> les: proper way to do it ;)
[18:27:35] <alex_joni> SWP: estop shouldn't loose position
[18:27:39] <les> rayh: it does for me simply because I send a signal to disable the amps
[18:27:40] <dmess> Heidenhein use scales and Yes you do shut it ALL off for some stuff... but pos'n is maintained by scale...
[18:27:51] <alex_joni> it should stop and brake
[18:27:56] <alex_joni> but feedback could still work, why should that stop too?
[18:28:13] <rayh> I don't even loose position on the rutex step and direction servo drives.
[18:28:46] <rayh> I did with gecko
[18:29:04] <SWPadnos> I agree that it shouldn't, but I would definitely be worried if a pause button did the esact same thing as an emergency stop button
[18:29:19] <les> A hard estop is required on industrial machines...the gui estop can be that or not, depending on how things are wired
[18:29:29] <dmess> ok so maintain feedback...clear e-stop...(drives light up) -single block..(prog. chk.)..cycle start...
[18:29:57] <alex_joni> usually the gui estop should trigger an external estop too
[18:30:00] <les> Gui estop currently resets the program
[18:30:11] <alex_joni> but the external circuitry should always have priority
[18:30:19] <alex_joni> over anything
[18:30:23] <les> It does in mine
[18:30:26] <SWPadnos> which means that an external estop (which the GUI notices, then goes into estop itself) will reset the program
[18:30:34] <alex_joni> les: depends on the emc you have :D
[18:30:49] <alex_joni> I connected some hal pins for emc2
[18:30:59] <les> SWP: depends on wiring
[18:31:23] <les> if you use estop sense...
[18:31:24] <SWPadnos> Ah - found it. I thought of four stop conditions - user pause, limit, fault, and estop
[18:31:28] <alex_joni> if the gui notices it .. should be so
[18:31:44] <alex_joni> yup
[18:31:54] <SWPadnos> and you probably want to do different things in those cases: decel to 0, stop but maintain position, or kill the machine forcefully
[18:32:00] <rayh> With mini, an external or internal estop resets the program but also kicks up a line number and restart buttons.
[18:32:16] <alex_joni> hal_bit_t *estop_out;/* estop pin output (from EMC to the actual machine) */
[18:32:21] <les> oh really...
[18:32:26] <alex_joni> hal_bit_t *estop_in;/* estop pin input (e.g. machine estop) */
[18:32:51] <dmess> mess likes Rays suggestion
[18:33:25] <alex_joni> what a mess :D
[18:33:41] <dmess> not just a mess but D mess
[18:34:01] <SWPadnos> do you then hit the slow parsing problem?
[18:34:04] <alex_joni> lol
[18:34:15] <alex_joni> even better
[18:34:21] <SWPadnos> (or is the interpreter actually left at the particular line)
[18:34:28] <SWPadnos> DaMess :)
[18:34:47] <rayh> SWPadnos: Uh yes on long programs.
[18:34:52] <dmess> c'est moi
[18:34:57] <SWPadnos> OK - I assume that's on the Fest list? :)
[18:35:21] <rayh> Some sort of fix is essential.
[18:36:05] <rayh> Both for estop and for changing tools in mid program.
[18:36:30] <anonimasu> hello everyone
[18:36:37] <SWPadnos> dos the toolchanging problem also happen if a Txx or pause command is hit?
[18:36:39] <rayh> We really need to be able to switch to manual mode, change and measure tools, and switch back.
[18:36:47] <alex_joni> rayh: the whole io, commands, etc needs rethinking
[18:37:06] <rayh> Extension anyway.
[18:37:07] <anonimasu> did you get to any conclusion about segmentqueue?
[18:37:10] <dmess> pause should allow a manual mode to be selected... axes retracted... tool check performed..then
[18:37:28] <rayh> exactly
[18:37:47] <dmess> at resume... it should goto its last programmed position and carry on parsing program
[18:38:00] <rayh> It means that the auto state needs to be modified by the ending state of the manual
[18:38:10] <SWPadnos> and retract along reverse path, which would be useful for EDM (not to mention essential for dovetail cutters :) )
[18:38:18] <dmess> the goto is usually in a straight line
[18:38:27] <rayh> dmess: with the possible need to work around obstacles.
[18:38:57] <les> yeah
[18:39:13] <les> goo with multiple axis is a great cause of crashes
[18:39:21] <dmess> if you wanna use positioning feedback... just have the operator teach the path on the way out and reverse it to reposition..
[18:39:47] <rayh> I get around this with mini by disclaiming any responsibilty for a restart
[18:40:05] <dmess> so doe FANUC... ; )
[18:40:11] <alex_joni> rayh: it's not a bug as long as it's documented
[18:40:12] <rayh> and then provide both forward in program and back in program buttons and highlights in the program itslef
[18:40:15] <alex_joni> right?
[18:40:41] <paul_c> alex_joni: An undocumented feature
[18:40:47] <rayh> "do this and you'll be certain to get a big f*&^% mess.
[18:41:03] <alex_joni> heh
[18:41:05] <SWPadnos> it's pretty easy to go backwards along a series of linear paths (circular isn't too bad either)
[18:41:05] <rayh> or was that a D mess.
[18:41:10] <dmess> aok get this scenario ive used for going onto 20yrs...
[18:41:27] <alex_joni> do not (and I emphasize DO NOT) attempt to push that button ;)
[18:41:40] <SWPadnos> click
[18:41:44] <alex_joni> paul_c: greetings
[18:41:46] <rayh> I had a bitch of a time trying to figure the locus of an arc when I was stopping part way through it.
[18:42:04] <dmess> pause... relative screen... zero all axes..(current position) spndl off..handle... move away...
[18:42:09] <alex_joni> paul_c: there was kris_jensen asking about vital stuff on bdi-4.18
[18:42:11] <dmess> tool chk
[18:42:30] <SWPadnos> you have the same center point, and the start point is known (current pos), the end point is the position specified in the previous line (plus change between CW to CCW)
[18:42:39] <alex_joni> SWP: I said push not click ;)
[18:42:40] <rayh> dmess: Coming to code fest?
[18:42:52] <dmess> reposition close... start spindle.. bring rel to 0,0,0... auto mode.. cycle start
[18:42:52] <SWPadnos> oh - no wonder why nothing Bad happened :)
[18:43:06] <alex_joni> lol
[18:43:08] <dmess> only in spirit Rayh
[18:43:23] <rayh> And IRC I trust.
[18:43:24] <alex_joni> dmess: too bad ;)
[18:43:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni too
[18:43:41] <anonimasu> that sounds like it'd work
[18:43:52] <alex_joni> an0n: what does?
[18:43:54] <rayh> Know what we need at code fest....
[18:44:01] <SWPadnos> CAFFEIENE!!!!
[18:44:03] <rayh> a projector with IRC.
[18:44:03] <dmess> im just a cnc hack anyway... cant code for beans..
[18:44:06] <anonimasu> what dmess wrote
[18:44:09] <SWPadnos> smartboard
[18:44:14] <alex_joni> rayh: besides massive brain power?
[18:44:22] <SWPadnos> oops - I guess I'm out :)
[18:44:23] <rayh> SWPadnos: That was assumed.
[18:44:43] <SWPadnos> good - normal government turpentine, or real coffee?
[18:44:47] <rayh> smartboard would be nice with a one button link to www.
[18:44:52] <alex_joni> SWP: must not be from all attendants
[18:45:13] <SWPadnos> it's a serial protocol, so very small files that are easily transferred
[18:45:30] <dmess> will a current pause allow manual mode selection??
[18:45:41] <rayh> can you make ordinary images from the product.
[18:46:05] <SWPadnos> If we can get a projector, I have a laptop that can output to it (VGA, S-video, or video) - I might even be able to bring a spare with that capability
[18:46:23] <alex_joni> dmess: I reckon so (go to MDI or Manual)
[18:46:25] <rayh> Nist has a projector.
[18:46:29] <SWPadnos> I believe so, but it's been years since I've looked at their stuff
[18:46:35] <dmess> k
[18:46:41] <les> I think safety regulations frown on a hard estop only on a computer screen or hot key
[18:46:48] <SWPadnos> I'll see about borrowing the second computer
[18:46:49] <les> but I'm not sorry it's there
[18:47:01] <SWPadnos> you must have hardware for EStop
[18:47:13] <SWPadnos> you can optionally tell the software that the machine is no longer in operation
[18:47:14] <rayh> Agreed on estop.
[18:47:21] <alex_joni> SWP: on normal to big machines yes
[18:47:22] <les> I use it to leave things on but disable the amps when I am away for lunch etc
[18:47:28] <dmess> he plans on kickin the power bar
[18:47:33] <rayh> With the rutex drives I prototyped...
[18:47:51] <SWPadnos> yes - a switch on the power strip is an effective estop for a small machine :)
[18:47:54] <rayh> Estop, either from GUI or the red button.
[18:48:03] <rayh> killed motor power...
[18:48:20] <dmess> big red mushroom... as the techies put it
[18:48:21] <SWPadnos> true, it's just that a relay is so much less likely to crash than a program
[18:48:48] <dmess> brb
[18:49:04] <SWPadnos> (I'm looking at building machines that need semi-S2 certification, so estop is a big thing for me ATM :) )
[18:49:38] <les> I have to deal with that too...but must study up on it
[18:49:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to work
[18:49:42] <alex_joni> laters guys
[18:49:46] <SWPadnos> see ya
[18:49:48] <les> later alex
[18:50:09] <les> question haha are we working?
[18:50:19] <rayh> * rayh phone
[18:50:21] <les> I thought so...
[18:51:04] <les> unless working=getting paid
[18:51:07] <alex_joni> les: it's only 22:00 here... so .. yes, we are working
[18:51:13] <les> in which case I am goofing off
[18:51:41] <les> ah but it's r&d overhead haha
[18:51:45] <anonimasu> hm, I wonder if bmp2cnc works nice
[18:52:03] <alex_joni> there's always cnc2bmp
[18:52:07] <alex_joni> :D
[18:52:08] <les> never tried it
[18:52:17] <alex_joni> I was kidding
[18:52:23] <anonimasu> :/
[18:52:30] <alex_joni> bbl
[18:52:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:52:37] <anonimasu> dosent matter too much
[18:52:41] <les> use Microdem to greyscale to height stuff
[18:52:54] <les> mill the mountains!!
[18:53:03] <anonimasu> never heard about it
[18:53:16] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:53:24] <anonimasu> www.bojn.net/~an0n/iotest/
[18:53:30] <anonimasu> thinking about milling that..
[18:53:32] <les> get digital elevation maps in standard DEM format
[18:53:42] <anonimasu> on somthing..
[18:53:44] <les> convert to height=greyscale
[18:53:59] <les> works very well
[18:54:22] <les> Tried it with shuttle strm mission data
[18:54:47] <anonimasu> ok
[18:54:49] <les> but I was disappointed
[18:55:02] <les> expected to see cars in driveway etc
[18:55:15] <les> DEM is 30 meter
[18:55:27] <anonimasu> :/
[18:56:00] <les> still it works ok to carve a city or county or something
[18:57:10] <les> Idea was to carve a county in mountanous areas in urethane foam
[18:57:24] <les> sell it to local government...
[18:57:27] <anonimasu> cool :)
[18:57:35] <les> move on to next county and do the same
[18:57:55] <les> but I have other better paying things to do now heh
[18:58:16] <anonimasu> http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/edm.pdf
[18:58:23] <les> the maps would need to bring about $1000 each
[18:58:38] <les> 3-d raster carving is very time consuming
[18:58:57] <anonimasu> I just wish that book took up somthing about digital supplies
[18:59:32] <Jymmm> les: you gonna paitn these "sculptures"?
[18:59:35] <Jymmm> paint
[18:59:53] <les> Ah jymmm good point...
[19:00:06] <les> DEM has no color or shade detail
[19:00:15] <les> airbrush something in
[19:00:33] <les> or get fancy and inkjet print sat photo over it
[19:00:39] <dmess> ive used rastered foam cores for carbon fiber layup tooling... works GREAT
[19:00:51] <les> yes
[19:00:58] <les> stuff is expensive
[19:01:12] <dmess> what carbon fiber??
[19:01:13] <les> $230 for the last sheet I bought
[19:01:21] <les> 4x8'x 2"
[19:01:27] <les> the foam
[19:01:40] <dmess> wow... they sen you comin'
[19:01:46] <les> 15 lb/ft^2 density
[19:02:01] <les> dmess no that was actually a good deal
[19:02:11] <les> it is just real expensive stuff
[19:02:29] <les> google signfoam and you will see
[19:02:32] <dmess> i used to get SPECTRA line ... 1/8" @ 3000 psi....for .12 a ft... now. .36
[19:03:07] <dmess> i know the stuff...
[19:03:22] <les> cuts like air
[19:03:33] <les> lots of sticky nasty dust though
[19:03:46] <dmess> need vacuum
[19:04:04] <les> I have vacuum but it's not the best
[19:04:04] <dmess> we used to hold the shop vac to her
[19:04:32] <les> I use a 2 hp collector with 3" duct to the tool
[19:04:39] <Jymmm> What, none of you guys use a wet/dry shopvac when your milling?
[19:04:41] <les> but a lot still gets away
[19:04:42] <dmess> right at the tool get a rooter tail dissappearing
[19:05:07] <dmess> into the tube
[19:05:13] <les> I even use a brush foot around the tool
[19:05:21] <les> but a lot gets away
[19:05:34] <les> I need to make the brush foot floating
[19:05:50] <dmess> get the suction lower/stronger more direct
[19:05:58] <les> yeah
[19:06:09] <dmess> is the machine contained??
[19:06:36] <les> the collector is about 1200 ft^3/min @ 30 " h20
[19:06:45] <Jymmm> les you know how they cover walk-in freezers?
[19:06:54] <les> how?
[19:07:06] <Jymmm> les with long flaps of clear plastic
[19:07:15] <dmess> work area is it contained...
[19:07:28] <Jymmm> les know what I mean?
[19:07:44] <les> I am using 4" nylon bristle gasket in extruded al
[19:08:13] <dmess> how much pressure on the bristles??
[19:08:27] <dmess> are the bent??
[19:08:35] <dmess> in operation
[19:08:36] <les> big problem is cooling air blasting out of the spindle bottom
[19:08:47] <les> made a deflector and it helped some
[19:09:15] <rayh> Back only got half way through the rutex fit but you guys have moved on.
[19:09:28] <les> the bristles are fixed ralative to z so are sometimes bent a lot
[19:10:02] <dmess> contain the work envelop and add a 10psi air line to the top of the machine... make a + pressure in the worc envelope and it HAS to go into the vacuum
[19:10:07] <les> we had to do something while you were working ray
[19:10:13] <anonimasu> ^_^
[19:10:57] <les> dmess: I have a supersonic CONDI nozzle blasting air on the tool toward the vacuum inlet
[19:11:38] <les> it helps some
[19:11:44] <dmess> then you'll have to SUCK HARDER....
[19:11:59] <les> but main purpose is to blast out packed chips in deep grooves
[19:12:05] <SWPadnos> right - the sucker has to be stronger than the blower :)
[19:12:06] <rayh> Oh. The rutex uses two power supplies.
[19:12:12] <SWPadnos> right
[19:12:20] <rayh> 24 volt dc and pmotor
[19:12:22] <dmess> yup.. .in that stuff anyway.
[19:12:24] <les> dmess: right
[19:12:34] <SWPadnos> you can get the same position functionality with Jon Elson's GSI board
[19:12:43] <rayh> Estop shuts of motor and ac to things like spindle and such
[19:12:52] <SWPadnos> (maintains power to the encoders independent of the drive being powered)
[19:13:00] <rayh> The dc 24 remains on so the encoders continue to read.
[19:13:00] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands les a 12" hooker to blow and suck the chips away!
[19:13:13] <les> heh
[19:13:18] <SWPadnos> rihgt - and the PIC chip remains powered
[19:13:35] <rayh> Now the problem with rutex is that it counts both pulses to step and encoder
[19:13:40] <rayh> and compares them.
[19:13:45] <les> ray: sounds like the safe way
[19:13:48] <dmess> +24 v is a watchdog tipe signal...
[19:13:52] <rayh> The mill it put this on had two handwheels.
[19:14:00] <dmess> type
[19:14:06] <les> sometimes soft estop (on gui) looses encoder position
[19:14:09] <rayh> Guess what.
[19:14:14] <SWPadnos> so there's a position error proportional to the response time of the PC, since it's still outputting pulses after the herdware has estopped
[19:14:16] <rayh> You ram it into a limit
[19:14:20] <rayh> and estop it
[19:14:23] <dmess> les.... it shouldnt...
[19:14:24] <rayh> hand crank it back
[19:14:37] <rayh> and power up and it goes right back into the limit.
[19:14:45] <les> I know it shouldn't...but it has
[19:14:53] <rayh> In fact it assumes that you want to do that as quickly as possible.
[19:14:54] <dmess> error levels should deal with that ray
[19:15:08] <rayh> rutex error is 32k
[19:15:24] <SWPadnos> actually, it should have integrated the position error to full drive strength in that case
[19:15:45] <SWPadnos> especially if it sees the encoder going backwards when it's trying to go froward
[19:15:47] <les> right it should snap back
[19:16:12] <les> I do not have an explanation for this
[19:16:12] <rayh> Nearly pushed me across the room.
[19:16:16] <SWPadnos> there should be a "clear" signal on the Rutexes
[19:16:22] <SWPadnos> or "reset"
[19:16:35] <SWPadnos> (other than shutting them off)
[19:16:39] <dmess> machine on...
[19:16:43] <rayh> I added a power switch on the box that shuts of the whole damn thing.
[19:16:47] <dmess> should do that..
[19:17:12] <SWPadnos> yes, but the rutex drives keep a copy of the encoder position for feedback to the computer
[19:17:16] <rayh> Now that still does not loose position
[19:17:18] <dmess> e-stop reset on pc... is soft estop removal..
[19:17:27] <les> I make it a point to be careful around a stopped but on condition
[19:17:42] <les> The thing could crush me like a grape
[19:17:53] <SWPadnos> that's why I think about four kinds of stop conditions
[19:18:01] <Jymmm> les you would look funny purple or in a bottle of wine
[19:18:08] <les> so much for the cnc massage machine heh
[19:18:09] <anonimasu> hm, you can always override limits and back up..
[19:18:09] <dmess> never sevice powered machinery... read the manuals...
[19:18:13] <SWPadnos> some where you use the motion planner to stop, and others where you really want to make sure nobody gets hurt
[19:18:35] <anonimasu> as long as emc dosent keep cranking pulses to the drive..
[19:18:37] <SWPadnos> (or at least the RT motion controller)
[19:18:49] <anonimasu> the limits shouldnt be 0.1 from the edge..
[19:18:50] <SWPadnos> well it always will in the event of an external estop
[19:19:05] <rayh> If we have an external estop, we need to have EMC estopped as well.
[19:19:12] <Jymmm> I liked MAriss eSTOP ciruit
[19:19:17] <SWPadnos> It'll be pulsing for at least one servo update cycle, right (1kHz)
[19:19:17] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: you need to have feedback..
[19:19:19] <les> I assume a machine on state will run away at any time...with 2200lbf
[19:19:26] <les> safe way to be
[19:19:49] <anonimasu> yep
[19:19:51] <dmess> so ext esopt drops input pin estop an emc hols the boat
[19:19:58] <SWPadnos> feedback actually compounds the problem - the PID loop sees no motion, so it increases the velocity to compensate
[19:20:23] <anonimasu> well you would need to have soft stops and hard stops that kills the drives..
[19:20:29] <les> icreases the force in my case
[19:20:31] <SWPadnos> bingo !
[19:20:38] <les> it's current mode
[19:20:38] <rayh> In the external pid from rutex, yes. That seems to be the case.
[19:20:40] <anonimasu> one that flips the estop relay..
[19:20:41] <SWPadnos> sure - increases drive strength, I guess I should say
[19:20:42] <dmess> soft limits are a NICE idea
[19:20:45] <anonimasu> kills everything..
[19:20:56] <anonimasu> soft limits that can be overridden from software..
[19:21:06] <SWPadnos> well - to me hitting a limit switch is just a pause/resume operation.
[19:21:08] <anonimasu> the hard ones shouldnt touch if the machine isnt running away..
[19:21:19] <SWPadnos> somewhat more severe than a yellow button getting pushed, but not catastrophic
[19:21:19] <anonimasu> and if it it it better stop the machine..
[19:21:32] <anonimasu> err and if it is.
[19:21:37] <SWPadnos> stutter :)
[19:21:38] <anonimasu> in any way possible..
[19:21:45] <anonimasu> typo :)
[19:21:54] <les> soft limits are good...I have them set about 1 cm from hard limit switches...then a shock absorber for the next 2 cm then end of travel
[19:21:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:22:13] <anonimasu> that's the way to go on about it I think..
[19:22:22] <anonimasu> the hard ones shouldnt leave any current on the drives..
[19:22:26] <dmess> dmess likes neopreme shock absorbers
[19:22:38] <anonimasu> you should never get past the soft ones anyway..
[19:23:05] <les> I used ACE constant force hydraulic shocks
[19:23:08] <dmess> les... where are s'ware limits set up in EMC
[19:23:14] <les> expensive little suckers
[19:23:15] <anonimasu> in the config..
[19:23:16] <anonimasu> :)
[19:23:20] <SWPadnos> OK - so there are maybe 5 stops: user pause, soft limit, limit switch, axis fault, and e-stop input
[19:23:31] <les> dmess: in the .ini
[19:23:34] <rayh> les: Yes there are much better shock absorbers than flesh.
[19:23:39] <dmess> hmm ok .
[19:23:48] <SWPadnos> flesh is kind of a one-time-use thing :)
[19:23:57] <anonimasu> min_limit
[19:23:59] <anonimasu> and max_limit
[19:24:03] <rayh> Oh. Add to that list chuck barriers.
[19:24:20] <les> heh
[19:24:28] <Jymmm> rayh Hey you never know... get some european spa to sell flesh stops at $500 per 5 minute session.
[19:24:34] <SWPadnos> actually, axis fault should just be "fault" - it could be from a tool break sensor
[19:24:36] <dmess> are there any lathes being fitted with EMC tha anyone knows??
[19:24:43] <les> for me the big red buttons and the limit switches are on the same buss
[19:24:53] <SWPadnos> that's an acceptable implementation
[19:24:57] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:24:57] <les> and they do a hardware estop
[19:25:02] <anonimasu> better safe then crippled
[19:25:17] <les> soft limits just stop but no hard or soft estop
[19:25:27] <SWPadnos> yep - there are different stop conditions, and different system responses to map to those situations
[19:25:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:25:36] <les> and soft estop(on the gui) just disable amps
[19:25:44] <anonimasu> that shouldnt be there imo
[19:25:50] <SWPadnos> you can make every condition o an estop if you want
[19:25:58] <rayh> Bridgeport limit pin only shuts off the machine. It does not estop.
[19:25:59] <SWPadnos> so
[19:26:02] <dmess> sounds good les... holds pos'n
[19:26:04] <SWPadnos> do
[19:26:16] <SWPadnos> it does if you physically connect it to the estop chain :)
[19:26:43] <SWPadnos> actually, anything in the gui shouldn't be labeled estop, since it really isn't
[19:26:47] <les> one note: if you have very low accel programmed in the ini emc will blow by limit and home switches
[19:26:53] <anonimasu> my point exactly
[19:26:55] <les> SWP right
[19:27:02] <les> more of an enable
[19:27:09] <SWPadnos> Maybe change that to "stop" and "enable"
[19:27:14] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:27:16] <rayh> I've not seen that at all Les.
[19:27:18] <anonimasu> that makes more sense
[19:27:23] <dmess> machine enabed...
[19:27:25] <anonimasu> estop should be a hard stop..
[19:27:28] <anonimasu> always..
[19:27:29] <les> I have with servo ray
[19:27:31] <SWPadnos> at higher traverse speeds, right les?
[19:27:33] <les> for sure
[19:27:42] <les> right higher speeds
[19:27:47] <rayh> very low decel with very high velocities ?
[19:27:54] <les> correct ray
[19:27:58] <SWPadnos> if you're moving 10m/min and you have 0.1 m/s^2 accel, you can't stop fast enough
[19:28:04] <anonimasu> hm, that depends on the design of the switches..
[19:28:07] <rayh> we on the same page again...
[19:28:07] <anonimasu> :)
[19:28:22] <SWPadnos> and how far from the end of travel you put them
[19:28:30] <anonimasu> --\_________/-- is how I'd set up my switches
[19:28:42] <rayh> That is why I always set the soft limits in the ini
[19:28:52] <rayh> Because decel is applied before the command.
[19:29:02] <anonimasu> so that anything past the switches triggers them.. dosent matter where..
[19:29:12] <dmess> on some large boring mills soft and hard switches micht be 15 cm apart
[19:29:15] <SWPadnos> well - that's something to ad to Tillie mode: a calculation of how far from the end stops your limit switches need to be to be of any use
[19:29:29] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:29:49] <les> well always fit switches in a cam fashion...so travel can go a bit past them without crushing them
[19:29:53] <dmess> mass consideration
[19:29:59] <rayh> I don't think this physical separation is a predictable thing.
[19:30:04] <SWPadnos> or at least a warning that at max speed, you could hit an end stop
[19:30:25] <SWPadnos> it is - if you know max vel and max accel, you can calculate max stopping distance
[19:30:26] <rayh> The only way we get past a INI set limit is a hardware failure.
[19:30:31] <anonimasu> yep
[19:30:38] <anonimasu> or a software bug..
[19:30:44] <SWPadnos> I can do that :)
[19:30:48] <anonimasu> hopefully no one will ever have to experience that
[19:30:56] <rayh> And that that point we do not have control of decel or vel.
[19:31:04] <anonimasu> agreed
[19:31:30] <SWPadnos> a limit switch is a warning at one level - it can be placed so that the machine can be brought to a controlled stop
[19:31:38] <SWPadnos> otherwise, it's an estop
[19:31:42] <rayh> That is why I like the shock absorber thing a lot better than a
[19:31:45] <les> ray: I will have to double check soft limits...I often see blowing past home and hard limit
[19:31:54] <rayh> ball screw crash at full power.
[19:31:58] <robin_sz> evening people
[19:32:04] <robin_sz> and 'tards :)
[19:32:07] <les> but I think soft limit does to
[19:32:10] <SWPadnos> oh - hi
[19:32:31] <les> tards say hello
[19:32:34] <dmess> high
[19:32:37] <anonimasu> robin...
[19:32:39] <rayh> les: A jog command is to the soft limit
[19:33:15] <dmess> a controled rapid should still only get to the s'limit
[19:33:26] <rayh> Exactly
[19:33:34] <les> ray I am not sure on soft limit...is it supposed to be a calculated decel before it reaches it?
[19:33:49] <SWPadnos> you should be able to override soft limits
[19:34:02] <rayh> Yes. The command is a complete up down to the end point.\
[19:34:24] <rayh> You can override soft limits and they do not apply before homing.
[19:34:27] <dmess> if the seg que is reading it all anyway it should tell you if your ganna hit a s'limit ta cycle start time
[19:34:30] <les> I have an over ride on hard limits...and use it often!
[19:34:37] <SWPadnos> with a fast parser, you can predict if a program will exceed the limits though
[19:34:42] <rayh> But the override we have is a single command override.
[19:35:16] <rayh> The interpreter will not command a move past an INI limit.
[19:35:30] <SWPadnos> right - if I have a piece that's just a little biger than the limits, but I know it'll fit on the machine (speeds are low enough to remove danger), then I should be able to tell emc to ignore those for now
[19:35:57] <rayh> Um. Not as it is presently compiled.
[19:35:59] <SWPadnos> then a warning on program load is pretty essential
[19:36:00] <dmess> you'll have to create another ini...
[19:36:07] <SWPadnos> shuold - like post-Fest :)
[19:36:19] <SWPadnos> should
[19:36:25] <les> I will test that. I try to run as low an accel as possible to do the job. Below a certain point I cannot home because it blows past the switch, hits the hard limit, and estops
[19:36:41] <rayh> What you are saying is related to chuck or vice barriers.
[19:36:43] <les> which is fine
[19:36:44] <SWPadnos> you should reduce the max velocity if you reduce the accel that low
[19:36:54] <dmess> no auto mode capabilities without s'limit enabled...is the way i see it
[19:37:00] <les> I don't have any problems with that behaviour
[19:37:10] <rayh> We should have the ability to lock or unlock any portion of the workspace.
[19:37:32] <SWPadnos> well - there's a relationship between the distance from soft limit to hard limit, and it has to do with the max accel and max velocity
[19:37:40] <les> other than just rectangular space?
[19:37:49] <SWPadnos> if you keep the velocity down, you can expand the soft limits closer to the hard limits
[19:37:56] <les> sure
[19:38:01] <rayh> The old Sherline ini decel, when applied to a rotary, took half a rotation to get up to speed or back down.
[19:38:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[19:38:12] <rayh> Full speed was only a few degrees.
[19:38:22] <dmess> thats a workzone inhibit feature... param envelope acts as pseudo slimits
[19:38:42] <rayh> That's why we added individual axis accel and vel.
[19:39:01] <rayh> dmess: Exactly.
[19:39:21] <dmess> i know the theory.... whos gonna code it
[19:39:27] <rayh> I don't even know how to tell that to the system. but I know that we need it bad.
[19:40:10] <les> arbitrary workzones could require a lot of data
[19:40:25] <rayh> "Tool! Don't even think about going there."
[19:40:26] <les> simpler geometric shapes would not
[19:40:37] <rayh> Yes.
[19:40:54] <les> right now it's a rectangle.
[19:40:59] <rayh> With chuck barriers you just program cylinders that are in or out of reach
[19:41:01] <SWPadnos> I'd just make cubic (right rectangular solid, actually :) ) zones
[19:41:10] <dmess> seg que has to chk to see if next pos'n fits inside a box X x Y x Z @ x1y1z1 if so just say no
[19:41:30] <les> yes
[19:41:41] <SWPadnos> it's more complex with non-XYZ joint setups
[19:41:46] <rayh> For a vice barrier, it may be two rectangles on top of a third.
[19:41:57] <les> simple connected rectangles would be pretty easy I guess
[19:42:01] <dmess> overlap rectangles to get complex shapes... omit common pts
[19:42:28] <alex_joni> what are you guys talking about?
[19:42:33] <les> would have some big switch() instead of a single if
[19:42:37] <rayh> Soft limits.
[19:42:40] <dmess> boolean and
[19:42:52] <rayh> And how the concept might be applied to chuch and vice barriers.
[19:43:05] <les> churrch???
[19:43:16] <les> heh
[19:43:18] <dmess> clamp checks...
[19:43:21] <rayh> chuck. I've already got church barriers in place.
[19:43:29] <SWPadnos> boolean or, I would think
[19:43:45] <dmess> yellow tape barriers at our place...
[19:43:53] <les> haw
[19:44:33] <rayh> "Do not attack the human in the work envelope."
[19:44:39] <alex_joni> heh
[19:45:04] <dmess> could the parser chk end points prior to processing
[19:45:12] <rayh> It seems to me that a simple shifting of the existing INI soft limits
[19:45:25] <rayh> would handle these kinds of things.
[19:45:49] <rayh> Nope.
[19:45:54] <dmess> or the addition of slimit 1 and lsimit 2...
[19:46:13] <SWPadnos> dmess: yes, but it would need speedups in the parser
[19:46:23] <rayh> Because with all of the look ahead, the limit has to shift for each block processed.
[19:46:28] <dmess> with greater than less thans
[19:46:38] <les> oh to be real handy you might want to drag ractangles on a picture or something
[19:46:47] <SWPadnos> plus, endpoints aren't enough - you need extent of travel for arcs
[19:47:00] <les> ractangles?
[19:47:49] <dmess> extents is available from postprocessor... we should be able to calculate it
[19:48:12] <les> yes a controlled decel before the work space limit could be complicated
[19:48:13] <SWPadnos> yep - can be done, but probably better with speed improvements
[19:48:25] <SWPadnos> (in the parser)
[19:48:46] <dmess> so fix it.. ; )
[19:49:01] <SWPadnos> wait a couple of weeks ;)
[19:49:10] <les> a distace offst from the limit calculated from max speed and accel in the ini would prob be sufficient
[19:49:13] <dmess> i can do that..
[19:49:21] <les> than no trajectory planner stuff
[19:49:35] <les> then
[19:49:56] <SWPadnos> Is there an ini value for the actual machine travel? (or is that the soft limit var)
[19:50:14] <les> the soft limits are in there
[19:50:37] <SWPadnos> I know they are, but for fudging extended soft limits, you'd also want to know the "real" limit
[19:50:40] <dmess> thats where i was screwin up... id have put my hswitches in front of that
[19:50:56] <SWPadnos> hswitch ys, lswitch no
[19:50:58] <SWPadnos> yes
[19:51:21] <dmess> 1/2
[19:51:28] <SWPadnos> ?
[19:51:42] <les> well I would assume traveling toward the limit with max velocity straight in
[19:51:56] <les> calculate the offset for the limit with that
[19:52:25] <les> also with max accel
[19:52:28] <dmess> yes.. and slow down that far ahead of the s/ware limit
[19:52:38] <les> right
[19:52:41] <dmess> at max decell
[19:52:45] <les> not foolproof
[19:52:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm - the limits could be calculated from the max feeds in a program and the max accel
[19:52:53] <les> but good enough I think
[19:53:03] <les> and no TP changes
[19:53:14] <les> just a big switch()
[19:53:31] <SWPadnos> big switch is a bad thing
[19:53:39] <dmess> only if you are closer than that AND manage to get to max speed sill you ever blow it softwre wise
[19:53:41] <SWPadnos> well - switch() anyway
[19:53:42] <alex_joni> heh.. reminds me of NML somehow ;)
[19:53:49] <SWPadnos> 480 lines only
[19:54:14] <les> heh well emc is full of big switch()
[19:54:24] <SWPadnos> yes - that should be on the Fest list :)
[19:54:57] <SWPadnos> at least ordering the cases so the most important are at the beginning
[19:55:00] <dmess> what are the dates of codefest??
[19:55:06] <SWPadnos> April 24-28
[19:55:10] <SWPadnos> 2005
[19:55:13] <les> and if it start from closer than that offset...
[19:55:18] <les> hmm let's see
[19:55:22] <SWPadnos> sorry - 25-28
[19:55:33] <alex_joni> SWP: I slowly start to think FEST should be 24.04-28.05
[19:55:34] <alex_joni> :D
[19:55:46] <les> It will not be able to accel to ful speed anyway right?
[19:55:52] <SWPadnos> 25.04.05-28.04.05
[19:56:02] <les> but still a possible slight over run
[19:56:07] <dmess> right... therin lies the solution..
[19:56:11] <SWPadnos> or 2005.04.25 - 2005.04.28
[19:56:25] <alex_joni> SWP: i know, I said it SHOULD be 25.04.2005-28.05.2005
[19:56:37] <alex_joni> to be able to address all the topics
[19:56:39] <alex_joni> :)
[19:56:44] <SWPadnos> yes :)
[19:57:01] <SWPadnos> you need the "real" size, but then you can calculate max velocity (toward the close limit) from the accel and position values
[19:57:10] <les> just need to pad the soft limit offset a bit more for that
[19:57:25] <dmess> hard limits and bumpers are for machines with shity controls...
[19:58:07] <les> haha well mine has em...the controls will be indeed shitty if the computer locks...
[19:58:35] <alex_joni> les: ever hit those bumpers?
[19:58:47] <dmess> well... is this THE operating system ive heard about or is it CRAP...
[19:58:55] <les> not once!!
[19:59:08] <alex_joni> les: WAY TO GO !!!
[19:59:09] <les> which is a shame...they cost so much
[19:59:42] <dmess> you arent an operator till you've been baptized by a machine crash
[19:59:54] <alex_joni> dmess: he's an integrator ;)
[20:00:02] <les> I have also had to go around and cycle the big red switches all around the machine
[20:00:07] <dmess> theyy say you remember you first for life...
[20:00:52] <les> they are normally closed but without occasional contact wiping they open
[20:01:03] <les> and the machine won't turn on
[20:01:12] <les> which is as it should be
[20:01:22] <dmess> good to know they still work...
[20:01:56] <les> dmess: I design machines. But I have done the dive for the big red button some too!
[20:02:51] <dmess> ohh pls. make THAT STOP... been there.. on a someone elses machine even...
[20:03:00] <les> heh
[20:03:33] <les> I usually make it to the button
[20:03:53] <dmess> i had a young apprentice at the Montreal tool show e-stop my machine cuz he thought it was gonna crash... ; )
[20:03:57] <les> But I must admit to a couple times with flying carbide shrapnel bits
[20:04:52] <dmess> i like when the cat 50 is glowing under 5gpm of flood coolant... you know thats to be proud of
[20:04:52] <les> slipping collets are always great fun
[20:05:32] <les> heh
[20:05:46] <robin_sz> you need to talk to les newell I think .. :)
[20:06:02] <alex_joni> mepp?
[20:06:05] <alex_joni> meep even?
[20:06:08] <les> does he have collet slips robin?
[20:06:18] <dmess> or the 6" fly cutter comes off the arbour and dances across 10 000 dollars worth of fixtures you trying for the 1st time
[20:07:08] <robin_sz> he tells me that Mach2 "didnt bother" with a few lines of gcode in a prgram .. put the toolpost of a big lathe into the 4 jaw .. the tool came off, through the 1/4" plexiglass and stuck in the roof =:-0
[20:07:22] <les> ow
[20:07:42] <alex_joni> ouch
[20:07:48] <robin_sz> when the tooling is stuck in the ceiling, its always a bad sign
[20:08:03] <les> I think when I get the 10 hp or so bolted on I am going to have some exciting times?
[20:08:06] <dmess> nice.... toshiba VTL thru a jaw into the next building at one customer's
[20:08:16] <robin_sz> heh
[20:08:33] <alex_joni> I crashed a robot on a fair once
[20:08:38] <robin_sz> $mate has a magnetizer for speaker magnets
[20:08:43] <les> bad? smoke?
[20:08:43] <alex_joni> it just ran amok
[20:08:51] <dmess> the door flew off and the operator hid under it till the noise stopped
[20:08:51] <alex_joni> right into the neighbours stand
[20:08:56] <robin_sz> sodding big coil of copper tape and some HUGE caps
[20:09:28] <les> yeah had one at shure
[20:09:32] <robin_sz> you put bolts in the hole, hit the go button and watch them embed in the roof :)
[20:09:45] <les> heh
[20:10:06] <robin_sz> im not a magent guy ..
[20:10:11] <dmess> another time they decapitad a VTL with the crane.... who knew the hydraulic counterbalance would go sooo high
[20:10:16] <SWPadnos> yeah - make sure you haven't had too much beef (or other iron-rich foods :) )
[20:10:22] <les> the air core cap ones can do 2+ Tesla fields
[20:10:39] <robin_sz> dunno what this one does
[20:11:08] <les> not quite like that 100T one at florida state that floats frogs and stuff
[20:11:09] <dmess> 2+tesla... cool...
[20:11:41] <robin_sz> they make big speakers and it exceeded the previous professionally built one by 10% in its ability to make magnets
[20:11:57] <les> hmm
[20:12:02] <robin_sz> $wife has seen weird shit in NMR scanners ...
[20:12:17] <robin_sz> like plastic tubing floating
[20:12:40] <les> NMR is up there with flux density
[20:12:53] <les> several or even 10 or so T?
[20:12:55] <dmess> it is one of the primary forces guys..
[20:14:07] <Jymmm> Use the force Luke!
[20:14:14] <les> relativistic manefestation of the electric Field
[20:14:19] <les> remember robin?
[20:14:20] <les> heh
[20:14:31] <dmess> DMG used linear motors... that wiped out the German techies card... i guess we dont ground things like they do.. and anyone with cars around that machine had blanc cards
[20:15:19] <dmess> cards..
[20:15:52] <les> next thing you know you'll have me runnin to the liquid nitrogrn store.
[20:16:00] <les> nitrogen
[20:16:19] <alex_joni> les: why buy? make your own
[20:16:39] <les> heh yeah
[20:16:58] <les> how cold for an adiabatic expansion
[20:17:02] <Jymmm> Mmmmmmmm 5000 gallons of LN2
[20:17:11] <les> I used te dry ice makers
[20:17:57] <les> for lLN2...hmmm
[20:18:24] <les> you know it has been 25 years since I took thermodynamics
[20:18:40] <Jymmm> Heh, we had a valve stuck open once... had 12" of LN2 on the floor of the chamber
[20:19:08] <dmess> sweet...mother of jesus
[20:19:30] <SWPadnos> that could really suck
[20:19:30] <dmess> free wart away seminar..
[20:19:33] <Jymmm> * Jymmm NOW knows the reason for double latched doors on envirmental chambers =)
[20:19:48] <les> We poured it on the floor (from the sorption pumps) at end of shift each day at Harris
[20:19:49] <SWPadnos> yeah - your fingers freeze off undoing the first latch.... :)
[20:20:32] <Jymmm> It was kinda funny... filled the entire lab, then seemed into the hallway... you never saw ppl jump up on desks/chair that fast =)
[20:20:38] <Jymmm> seeped
[20:20:42] <les> We used to do a really dumb "stick your hand in the LN2 initiation" there
[20:21:12] <les> It won't hurt you if you do it fast
[20:21:15] <alex_joni> les: nice
[20:21:16] <Jymmm> les how many vitims did you get?
[20:21:24] <les> just boils around your hand
[20:21:24] <anonimasu> what did I miss?
[20:21:25] <dmess> dip the hair and break it off was our trick
[20:21:34] <les> but I don't reccomend it..
[20:22:01] <Jymmm> makes beer cold fast though =)
[20:22:05] <les> anon: just friday afternoon goofing off heh
[20:22:29] <les> story time.
[20:22:36] <anonimasu> my router died..
[20:22:36] <anonimasu> again
[20:22:40] <alex_joni> darn
[20:22:51] <les> ? what happened?
[20:23:13] <anonimasu> I have no idea..
[20:23:17] <anonimasu> it seems like it just locked up
[20:23:29] <robin_sz> alex_joni: PEBKAC probably
[20:23:36] <les> well you know the universal fix...
[20:23:52] <Jymmm> anonimasu nix or hw router?
[20:23:55] <anonimasu> nix..
[20:24:13] <anonimasu> openbsd is unstable nowdays..
[20:24:18] <alex_joni> robin: PEBKAC?
[20:24:25] <anonimasu> I used to have 700 days of uptime on the same system with linux
[20:24:31] <anonimasu> seems like routers lock up randomly
[20:24:35] <Jymmm> alex_joni you dont know PEBKAC ?
[20:24:44] <anonimasu> I dunno if i't some kind of exploit or some kind of error..
[20:24:53] <robin_sz> alex_joni: its the most common reason
[20:24:57] <SWPadnos> the P is "Problem"
[20:25:15] <Jymmm> anonimasu I have a MS-DOS router you cna use =)
[20:25:23] <anonimasu> Jymmm: oh, does it run pf?
[20:25:26] <alex_joni> heh .. this is cool
[20:25:27] <alex_joni> http://babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html
[20:25:32] <Jymmm> anonimasu pf ?
[20:25:37] <anonimasu> packetfilter
[20:25:39] <anonimasu> ^_^
[20:25:50] <Jymmm> anonimasu actually yeah it does, and does ipsec too
[20:26:16] <alex_joni> lol
[20:26:27] <Jymmm> anonimasu has ftp and telnet too
[20:26:33] <anonimasu> heh
[20:26:39] <Jymmm> anonimasu I'm not kidding
[20:26:43] <les> what a link
[20:27:17] <anonimasu> oh I belive you.. but well bsd works just fine
[20:27:23] <anonimasu> but it might just be a bad memory stick..
[20:27:39] <Jymmm> anonimasu this boots from a fdd then just runs in memory after that.
[20:27:48] <robin_sz> alex_joni: Problem exists between keyboard and chair
[20:28:02] <alex_joni> right
[20:28:12] <robin_sz> wtf do all 'mercans want to pretend they are Irish?
[20:28:49] <Jymmm> But I have the registered version ---> ftp://ftp.flashnet.it/pub/simtelnet/msdos/network/iprv094.zip
[20:29:03] <robin_sz> how come Connor, Caleb etc are the most popular names
[20:29:13] <Jymmm> non-us export restricted.
[20:29:17] <alex_joni> connor? on what planet?
[20:29:23] <anonimasu> hm ok
[20:29:27] <robin_sz> planet USA
[20:29:48] <anonimasu> lol
[20:29:51] <alex_joni> rank 44
[20:29:52] <alex_joni> :D
[20:29:58] <alex_joni> oh.. it beat robin
[20:29:59] <anonimasu> maybe I should run out in the shop and tram the mill..
[20:30:03] <anonimasu> it's 1 deg off :)
[20:30:21] <anonimasu> I think that'll remove my chatter and give me better surfaces
[20:30:47] <robin_sz> sigh
[20:30:54] <les> I sometimes off tram a hair with fly cutters
[20:31:04] <robin_sz> auction upload time again
[20:31:09] <les> ?
[20:31:12] <robin_sz> as usual, its all a mess
[20:31:19] <anonimasu> lol
[20:31:29] <les> oh your auctions
[20:31:40] <robin_sz> lots with no images, but entries in the db
[20:31:55] <robin_sz> lots with .JPG in the db and .jpg in the filesystem
[20:31:59] <robin_sz> and vice versa
[20:32:09] <robin_sz> ugh.
[20:32:19] <les> I may have some significant tools to sell as I upgrade to more power on things
[20:32:42] <alex_joni> les: too bad you're so far away
[20:32:56] <les> heh
[20:32:59] <Jymmm> anonimasu I have used it 24/7/365 for 3yrs - it's not too shabby. Also a great way to have an emergency router
[20:33:14] <les> mostly woodworking stuff
[20:33:30] <les> bigger jonter...bigger saw
[20:33:43] <Jymmm> les MORE POWER UG UG UG
[20:33:51] <les> yup
[20:34:36] <les> power is cheap... employee time is not
[20:35:16] <les> bigger and bigger machines mean the potential for more dramatic accidents
[20:35:23] <les> so a little scary
[20:36:12] <les> But I am in the phase of twice the power half the time stuff now
[20:36:43] <les> you stop when the work catches on fire I guess
[20:37:21] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:38:32] <les> the soon to be 10 hp 1000 ipm stuff is going to age me prematurely
[20:38:49] <anonimasu> :/
[20:38:52] <alex_joni> les: you really must not care
[20:38:59] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands les http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?keyword=3741501&resultCt=1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=118230
[20:39:03] <les> type in the wrong thing in a text editor and the whole place goes up?
[20:39:54] <anonimasu> http://shurl.org/ttRvi
[20:39:57] <anonimasu> same link
[20:40:25] <les> yeah will need bigger fire extinguishers
[20:40:34] <les> have small abc ones now
[20:40:46] <Jymmm> les those are automatic and can be installed on anything
[20:41:05] <les> cool
[20:41:12] <Jymmm> les note pricetag
[20:41:23] <anonimasu> well, not that much..
[20:41:34] <les> YIKES
[20:41:40] <dmess> i like fire suppression units... EDM must have them as far as im concerned
[20:41:44] <anonimasu> cheap insurance :)
[20:42:11] <Jymmm> les $1000 is cheap insurance for a $10k machine
[20:42:26] <Jymmm> les atuomatic and won't damage electronics
[20:42:40] <anonimasu> I like halon fire extinguishers.
[20:42:43] <anonimasu> ^_^
[20:42:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu I do too
[20:43:09] <anonimasu> although deadly but they extinguish fire :D
[20:43:21] <alex_joni> buy some large CO2 bottles
[20:43:32] <alex_joni> should extinguish fires
[20:43:34] <Jymmm> alex_joni co2 + electronics
[20:43:40] <Jymmm> not a good thing
[20:43:40] <alex_joni> heh ;)
[20:44:01] <Jymmm> chemical == eats metal
[20:44:02] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not liquid
[20:44:05] <anonimasu> I've extinguished burning solvent's with a co2 one..
[20:44:08] <alex_joni> really?
[20:44:11] <anonimasu> it worked great..
[20:44:19] <Jymmm> alex_joni chemical, yeah
[20:44:19] <les> Big insurance for industrial cnc is just to make it tough
[20:44:37] <anonimasu> that dosent help aginst fire :)
[20:44:47] <robin_sz> why would you put a fire extinguiser in an EDM?
[20:44:49] <les> My lin bearings can handle 32,000lb max dynamic load
[20:44:53] <anonimasu> eh?
[20:44:55] <Jymmm> alex_joni you have to wipe that shit up fairly quick after wards
[20:45:02] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I ask the same
[20:45:03] <les> don't need that in cutting...
[20:45:13] <robin_sz> anonimasu: yeah, dint make sense to me
[20:45:19] <les> but it can survive a horrible crash and be ok.
[20:45:25] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I thought edm's was _safe_
[20:45:32] <anonimasu> relatively :)
[20:45:32] <robin_sz> anonimasu: quite
[20:45:42] <robin_sz> anonimasu: unless its fission powered :)
[20:45:46] <anonimasu> safer then spinning a small cutter at 20krpm
[20:45:49] <alex_joni> anything done properly should be safe
[20:46:02] <alex_joni> even a nuke
[20:46:05] <alex_joni> lol
[20:46:05] <anonimasu> heh
[20:46:11] <robin_sz> but why an extibguiser in an EDM dmess??
[20:46:22] <robin_sz> or even an extinguiser
[20:46:39] <alex_joni> robin: does that www2.redpoint work?
[20:46:52] <alex_joni> even an extinguisher
[20:47:00] <robin_sz> alex_joni: hmmm .. .the dns points, but ive not made the vhost
[20:47:02] <robin_sz> my bad
[20:47:27] <anonimasu> hm they do come with extinguishers..
[20:47:34] <robin_sz> do they?
[20:47:38] <robin_sz> coo.
[20:47:40] <Jymmm> what does
[20:47:41] <robin_sz> I wonder why
[20:47:45] <robin_sz> EDM machines
[20:47:50] <Jymmm> ah
[20:47:53] <anonimasu> if you work with combustible metals..
[20:47:56] <anonimasu> http://www.intech-edm.com/pdf/FireGuard.pdf
[20:47:58] <les> I have caught my clothes on fire welding.
[20:48:01] <Jymmm> Mmmmm magnesium
[20:48:07] <robin_sz> but .. underwater?#
[20:48:12] <robin_sz> whats it going to do?
[20:48:22] <robin_sz> and you dont edm magnesium do you?
[20:48:26] <Jymmm> les we told you to quit welding the inside of the brewery vat!
[20:48:32] <anonimasu> hm, maybe..
[20:48:34] <Jymmm> when it's half full
[20:48:35] <SWPadnos> but it was leaking :)
[20:48:54] <Jymmm> SWPadnos that was a valve!
[20:48:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:49:20] <robin_sz> of for a die sinker edm
[20:49:28] <robin_sz> I was thinking of wire edm
[20:49:34] <Jymmm> talk about clausterphobic... clean the inside of a 5000 gallon tank
[20:50:04] <robin_sz> die sinkers run in parafin dont they?
[20:50:36] <anonimasu> no idea..
[20:50:49] <robin_sz> wire edm runs in distilled water
[20:51:10] <anonimasu> or in oil..
[20:51:21] <robin_sz> the ones ive seen were water
[20:53:35] <alex_joni> robin: what's goat.cx ?
[20:55:19] <robin_sz> you really want to know?
[20:55:32] <alex_joni> hmmm.. not so sure anymore :D
[20:55:51] <SWPadnos> you really don;t want to know (at least that's the wrong URL)
[20:56:02] <alex_joni> lol
[20:56:12] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: not quite the wrong url, just a variant
[20:56:29] <SWPadnos> OK - but still not really in the "Lemme at it" category
[20:56:45] <alex_joni> be right back.?
[20:56:50] <Jymmm> alex_joni DONT GO
[20:56:58] <alex_joni> back?
[20:57:09] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smack robin_sz... that's fscked up
[20:57:22] <Jymmm> lol
[20:57:58] <robin_sz> alex_joni: I detached it from its vhost, but if you really really want to see th content that was there ...
[20:57:59] <Jymmm> I wonder if they'll put up ads on it
[20:58:00] <alex_joni> Jymmm is going to get his ass whooped
[20:58:29] <Jymmm> alex_joni : Fine, go looks at it!
[20:58:50] <robin_sz> alex_joni: http://www.quacky.co.uk/~robin/goat/ # you were warned
[20:59:14] <alex_joni> the combination robin & goats give me the creeps
[20:59:26] <Jymmm> alex_joni that shouldn't at all
[20:59:35] <alex_joni> not sure it's legal to visit such pages around here
[20:59:40] <SWPadnos> heh - this is a funny auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3832853401
[20:59:51] <robin_sz> no, me and goats is much safer to be honest
[20:59:53] <SWPadnos> the guy doesn't know what a PC power supply looks like
[21:00:37] <robin_sz> they are OLD though
[21:00:44] <Jymmm> AT PS's!
[21:00:44] <robin_sz> PC/AT ones
[21:00:56] <SWPadnos> nope - original PC I think - 63.5W
[21:01:00] <Jymmm> LOL 63.5 Watts
[21:01:06] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:01:14] <SWPadnos> I think the AT supplies were a bit more (like 100 or so)
[21:01:21] <robin_sz> ISTR we had one of those machines ... a Dell ... IBM clone
[21:01:38] <Jymmm> yeah right... "brand new and in excellent clean condition"
[21:01:41] <SWPadnos> I have a friend who actually had the first PC model (his father worked at IBM)
[21:02:01] <SWPadnos> had 16k on the MB, expandable to 64k
[21:02:08] <robin_sz> I had a IBM5110
[21:02:23] <SWPadnos> the max that system could take was 576k, because there was a limit of 512k on ISA cards
[21:02:29] <alex_joni> nice
[21:02:32] <SWPadnos> (8-bit cards, that is)
[21:02:33] <robin_sz> alex_joni: did you look ...??
[21:02:52] <robin_sz> alex_joni: I will check the logs ;)
[21:02:54] <SWPadnos> he's probably out washing his eyes out with soap
[21:03:00] <robin_sz> hehehe
[21:03:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos wont help
[21:03:23] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: the curious thing is ... you know who the real culprit is?
[21:03:26] <SWPadnos> no - the image will forever be emblazoned on his retinas
[21:03:36] <SWPadnos> I know not, thank you
[21:03:42] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: tbl!
[21:03:56] <SWPadnos> who?
[21:04:01] <SWPadnos> Tonl BLair?
[21:04:04] <SWPadnos> Tony, that is
[21:04:10] <robin_sz> tbl, who visits this channel ...
[21:04:22] <robin_sz> ex sherline sysadmin
[21:04:26] <alex_joni> hmmm
[21:04:32] <SWPadnos> thinking...
[21:04:34] <robin_sz> goatse.cx was his ...
[21:04:40] <robin_sz> this is just a copy
[21:04:52] <SWPadnos> ugh - 6 degrees of separation hits again
[21:05:16] <robin_sz> yeah, just when you wish it wouldnt :)
[21:06:05] <SWPadnos> exactly
[21:06:16] <SWPadnos> 2 steps from Fergie - OK
[21:06:34] <SWPadnos> 1 step from Spike Jonze, OK
[21:06:48] <SWPadnos> but anything closer than 67 or so from this is depressing
[21:08:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[21:34:00] <robin_sz> ugh .. there are some idiots on the net ...
[21:34:27] <alex_joni> robin: how so?
[21:34:31] <robin_sz> why is that guy on geckodrive trying to make his own encoders
[21:34:44] <robin_sz> like $19 .. why would you bother
[21:35:07] <alex_joni> heh
[21:36:35] <rayh> at 0.02 cents per hour he might come out okay.
[21:37:15] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:37:28] <robin_sz> assuming hes prepared to accept a crap encoder too
[21:37:38] <SWPadnos> well - they are close to $40 each :)
[21:37:44] <robin_sz> well, yes
[21:37:46] <rayh> Yes that is probably also true.
[21:37:49] <robin_sz> apart fromt he $19 ones
[21:38:19] <SWPadnos> actually, a high quality industrial one (which may be a stretch for anything homemade) is in the $400 range
[21:38:29] <alex_joni> SWP: or more
[21:38:30] <robin_sz> well .. yes
[21:38:34] <SWPadnos> yes - more :)
[21:38:44] <alex_joni> but you won't match that at home
[21:38:46] <robin_sz> but the cheap us digital one is $19
[21:38:55] <robin_sz> dropping to $10 in quantity
[21:39:05] <robin_sz> http://www.usdigital.com/products/e4p/
[21:39:58] <robin_sz> admittedly on 1200ppr .. but still
[21:40:22] <robin_sz> their better ones are $39
[21:40:50] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'm not sure why they're doing their own, but it's a cool thing anyway
[21:40:59] <robin_sz> yeah, for fun,
[21:41:01] <robin_sz> no problem
[21:41:05] <SWPadnos> makes it possible to have multilpe index channels and the like
[21:41:05] <robin_sz> but its not sane
[21:41:35] <robin_sz> CNCzone seems to have more than its fair share of arseholes
[21:41:50] <SWPadnos> I think every group does :)
[21:41:57] <robin_sz> tee hee.
[21:42:01] <SWPadnos> (or at least, its fair share)
[21:42:17] <alex_joni> heh.. jmkwas the one who worked on making encoders
[21:42:31] <robin_sz> CNCzone seems to attract the "never actually seen a mill/lathe/router" brigade
[21:42:57] <SWPadnos> "... but I want to build one"
[21:43:49] <robin_sz> the same guy was the one telling me how making up complicate ribbon cable assemblies was cheaper than a SMD printed circuit to drop the 200X on
[21:44:10] <SWPadnos> cable == manual labor == $$$$
[21:44:15] <robin_sz> zackly
[21:44:23] <alex_joni> heh
[21:44:30] <robin_sz> and that without the manual labour == fuckups
[21:44:57] <robin_sz> he also did the "smoother pulses dont give more torque" thing
[21:45:10] <robin_sz> I have developed an irrational dislike
[21:45:26] <SWPadnos> true enough about the torque
[21:45:34] <SWPadnos> but it does extend "usable" torque :)
[21:46:04] <robin_sz> it produce more torqu on the output shaft at speed than rough pulses
[21:46:33] <SWPadnos> yes - so you get a higher percentage of the motor's rated torque applied to the shaft
[21:46:41] <robin_sz> yep
[21:46:52] <SWPadnos> but as he said, it doesn't make a 300 oz-in motor into a 400 oz-in motor
[21:46:56] <SWPadnos> all splitting hairs
[21:47:05] <SWPadnos> (it just makes it perform like one)
[21:47:11] <robin_sz> quite
[21:47:23] <SWPadnos> but don't worry - I think he doesn't like you either :)
[21:47:44] <robin_sz> thats OK, I am waiting for him to send me an offlist mail
[21:47:47] <robin_sz> :)
[21:47:48] <gezr> doesn't usmotor or something like that sell a 20 buck or so quad encoder?
[21:47:55] <rayh> If you use the pulse multiplier from gecko or the rutex then there is smoothing anyway.
[21:47:57] <SWPadnos> usdigital
[21:48:10] <robin_sz> rayh: yeah, that helps
[21:48:11] <gezr> yeah thats it, they seem to offer a large selection of motors
[21:48:17] <SWPadnos> true - and you have to for slower computers
[21:48:36] <rayh> * rayh confesses to be the arse round these parts.
[21:48:56] <robin_sz> * robin_sz wonders whether to send rayh to *that* page ...
[21:48:57] <gezr> anyway, hello you guys, hope things are going well :)
[21:49:06] <robin_sz> not really
[21:49:19] <SWPadnos> they have aexactly two motors, both steppers
[21:49:29] <gezr> *that* page has been around for a long time, and I can picture it, as I saw it when I first saw it,
[21:49:54] <SWPadnos> robin_sz: don't do it
[21:49:57] <robin_sz> yeah, still worth sending people to from time to time :)
[21:50:03] <robin_sz> that and tubgirl
[21:50:08] <SWPadnos> eeewww
[21:50:28] <SWPadnos> actually - eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[21:51:09] <SWPadnos> it is funny that a company that sells loads of encoders doesn't sell servos
[21:51:22] <SWPadnos> but they do sell steppers and rebranded Geckodrives
[21:55:06] <rayh> *that*??
[21:55:23] <SWPadnos> did I miss several minutes of conversation?
[21:56:16] <robin_sz> rayh: you are better off not knowing
[21:56:29] <SWPadnos> ah, *that*
[21:56:40] <alex_joni> rayh: I advise against visiting *that* page ;)
[21:56:51] <SWPadnos> *that* 's a great idea :)
[21:56:52] <rayh> pretty crusty 'eh?
[21:57:02] <SWPadnos> um - yeah
[21:57:06] <cradek> have you ever noticed that you can't unsee something?
[21:57:07] <robin_sz> crusty .. no .. more sort of moist really.
[21:57:16] <SWPadnos> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[21:57:23] <alex_joni> * alex_joni smacks robin
[21:57:29] <rayh> cradek: ain't that the truth.
[21:57:38] <alex_joni> somebody make him shut up
[21:57:51] <robin_sz> * robin_sz sends alex_joni to www.tubgirl.com as a punishment
[21:58:33] <robin_sz> if you listen carefully ... you can hear him typing it in ...
[21:58:37] <robin_sz> he doesnt want to ..
[21:58:41] <robin_sz> but he will anyway
[21:58:46] <robin_sz> the devil made him do it.
[21:59:14] <robin_sz> anyway .. moving swiftly on ;)
[21:59:14] <alex_joni> not really ;)
[21:59:29] <SWPadnos> you don't need to go there - it is a shitty site
[21:59:40] <robin_sz> oh I do so hope the log bot is logging this ...
[21:59:52] <alex_joni> lol
[21:59:55] <robin_sz> some day, someone is going to browse these logs ... :)
[22:00:03] <SWPadnos> woe unto them
[22:00:05] <rayh> I thought tubgirl was a MS Desktop background.
[22:00:16] <SWPadnos> only for the criminally insane
[22:00:23] <rayh> Used in all the good schools.
[22:01:31] <robin_sz> ive always wondered whether someone took that pic tinking "this will be gross" ..
[22:01:43] <anonimasu> hm I think I found the error with the router..
[22:01:46] <robin_sz> or they took it thinking "this is just sooooo sexy"
[22:01:50] <SWPadnos> yeah - or this is so cool"
[22:02:03] <robin_sz> thats waht I fond disturbing ...
[22:02:07] <robin_sz> find
[22:02:08] <anonimasu> the cpu had grewn fur.
[22:02:11] <robin_sz> ahh
[22:02:13] <rayh> "tinking" you are a true youpper, robin
[22:02:24] <robin_sz> fan stopped?
[22:02:30] <anonimasu> no but almost
[22:02:37] <anonimasu> the cpu was hot when I touched it..
[22:02:52] <SWPadnos> I finally replaced mine - it had been grinding for a few weeks
[22:02:55] <anonimasu> not extremely but that's on the outside of the fins...
[22:03:05] <anonimasu> it was what I'd call pretty warm..
[22:03:14] <anonimasu> but that dosent tell anything about how hot it's inside..
[22:03:15] <anonimasu> :)
[22:03:24] <robin_sz> $500 cpu, $3 fan ...
[22:03:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:03:42] <pfred1> next weel it'll be a $3 CPU so no worries
[22:03:48] <pfred1> next week even
[22:03:49] <SWPadnos> $250,000 of data ...
[22:03:52] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:04:01] <anonimasu> scary
[22:04:21] <pfred1> yeah amazing what that porn costs to download
[22:04:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu cant seem to get the mill to make shiny surfaces
[22:04:49] <pfred1> must be why they made polishers
[22:05:08] <anonimasu> pfred1: oh, if I dont get good surfaces when I mill I might as well take the file out of the box :)
[22:05:30] <SWPadnos> high speed finish passes are your friend
[22:05:31] <pfred1> what are you cutting?
[22:05:34] <anonimasu> alu
[22:05:34] <SWPadnos> (or was that low speed? :) )
[22:05:37] <anonimasu> 6063
[22:05:45] <pfred1> yeah a finish cut light fast
[22:05:47] <anonimasu> hm dosent seem to matter that much...
[22:05:51] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:05:58] <robin_sz> fast as you can go ...
[22:06:09] <anonimasu> I get circles OoOoO
[22:06:15] <pfred1> usually you downhill on the material removal then climb back out
[22:06:17] <kjensen> do any devs use a canned debug IDE like kdevelop or do you just vi/gcc to debug?
[22:06:25] <robin_sz> circles?
[22:06:30] <anonimasu> yeah at the bottom of the cut..
[22:06:31] <robin_sz> thats mill stability
[22:06:46] <robin_sz> as it stops, its flexing
[22:06:50] <anonimasu> might be that I've got too much overhang.. also..
[22:07:00] <robin_sz> must be made from plastic and bent wire
[22:07:23] <SWPadnos> kdevelop and the like aren't well suited to debugging RT and kernel modules
[22:07:35] <SWPadnos> great for some GUI development though
[22:07:38] <robin_sz> some
[22:07:39] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[22:08:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[22:08:46] <pfred1> yeah chatter does not make for smooth machining
[22:08:50] <alex_joni> night guys
[22:08:55] <anonimasu> night..
[22:09:04] <SWPadnos> night
[22:09:09] <anonimasu> I've got a 4cm edge cutter..
[22:09:12] <anonimasu> slotdrill..
[22:09:13] <anonimasu> 8mm
[22:09:30] <les> good night
[22:09:41] <robin_sz> hey les ..
[22:10:02] <robin_sz> not found these cheap dc motors yet
[22:10:03] <les> yeah?
[22:10:07] <SWPadnos> are you doing 3d contouring, or 2.5D stuff?
[22:10:16] <anonimasu> nothing..
[22:10:26] <anonimasu> I am trying to mill a g1...
[22:10:26] <les> I am doing true 3d contouring
[22:10:29] <anonimasu> just a straight line..
[22:10:32] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: 3d contouring ... hes trying to do 2.5d, but its ending up as 3d :)
[22:10:36] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:11:14] <les> robin: still looking at cheap servo options
[22:11:18] <anonimasu> the edges might be dead though since I plunged with it a couple of days ago..
[22:11:23] <robin_sz> thinking about it
[22:11:40] <SWPadnos> gotta run for dinner - see you later
[22:11:46] <les> It's one of the" should I really do this" filters for sure
[22:11:59] <robin_sz> les: makes some sense
[22:12:01] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[22:12:02] <les> later swp
[22:12:09] <anonimasu> well nevermind I'll look into it.. or I'll have to look for a new machine.
[22:12:25] <robin_sz> les: I'll try the steppers first though
[22:12:37] <pfred1> les cheap servo options you're funny!
[22:12:46] <les> well a plunge groove is inherently unstable
[22:12:59] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:13:02] <les> one edge climb milling...the other not
[22:13:11] <robin_sz> you know the same girls I know ;)
[22:13:22] <les> pfred: yeah cheap servos seem an oxymoron
[22:13:23] <anonimasu> it ends up the same no matter how i cut it..
[22:13:42] <pfred1> I've heard about people using mouse encoders
[22:13:56] <robin_sz> pfred1: the cheap US digital encoder is $19
[22:14:04] <robin_sz> 1200ppr
[22:14:08] <les> a mouse has two quadrature encoders it's true
[22:14:21] <les> for $3?
[22:14:30] <robin_sz> about 10ppr though
[22:14:36] <les> heh
[22:14:40] <les> details...
[22:14:43] <rayh> Should be good enough for a spindle.
[22:14:48] <robin_sz> yep
[22:14:55] <robin_sz> if it has the freq response
[22:14:58] <rayh> What's the top end.
[22:15:08] <robin_sz> the bit at the top?
[22:15:09] <les> replace witha couple film gratings and ?
[22:15:19] <robin_sz> nah
[22:15:30] <robin_sz> pickup spacing is fixed
[22:15:54] <les> nah because why not just buy some cheap usdigital
[22:16:04] <robin_sz> exactly
[22:16:09] <rayh> Got a 32 ppr round here -- holes in a wheel.
[22:16:10] <pfred1> because old mice are free?
[22:16:20] <les> they work fine with over 1 mm slop in the slot
[22:16:28] <robin_sz> free yes
[22:16:33] <robin_sz> but not actually good enough
[22:16:38] <les> labor isn't
[22:16:44] <pfred1> people gear them down
[22:16:57] <pfred1> that's how they increase the resolution
[22:16:58] <robin_sz> I bet they do
[22:17:06] <pfred1> rubber band
[22:17:16] <robin_sz> and these people, do they subscribe to CNCZone by any chance?
[22:17:23] <anonimasu> lol
[22:17:24] <pfred1> they may
[22:17:26] <les> pfred if you want I am sure you could make a good encoder out of mouse guts
[22:17:29] <robin_sz> figures
[22:17:43] <pfred1> but that's not where I've seen people do it
[22:18:13] <pfred1> next making a linear encoder out of common #2 pencils!
[22:18:16] <robin_sz> its one of those "it would be possible, but not advisable" scenrios
[22:18:25] <les> one problem: no index channel
[22:18:31] <les> robin: yeah
[22:18:44] <les> one of those time/money things
[22:18:50] <robin_sz> zackly
[22:19:26] <les> I can go out in the woods and take three rocks and turn them into surface plates I guess
[22:19:33] <les> but I don't
[22:19:39] <les> well I did it once
[22:19:40] <pfred1> les why not?
[22:19:46] <pfred1> was it fun?
[22:19:55] <les> to learn yeah
[22:20:04] <pfred1> happiness is
[22:20:12] <robin_sz> perhaps build a surface plate grinding rig ...
[22:20:25] <pfred1> the most miserable people I've ever met have always been the richest ones
[22:20:33] <robin_sz> bollocks
[22:20:53] <robin_sz> :0
[22:20:54] <robin_sz> )
[22:21:04] <robin_sz> its true,
[22:21:07] <les> do it once and it is just nice to know that you can make perfect planes and right angles without any outside help
[22:21:10] <robin_sz> money does not buy happiness
[22:21:15] <les> it's just nice tyo know
[22:21:16] <pfred1> I mat Janis Joplin's manager once he was a funny guy
[22:21:45] <pfred1> his big line was I made a million and I spent it too!
[22:21:46] <les> what a rough job...
[22:21:51] <robin_sz> but ... money does at least make being miserable a tolerable experience :)
[22:22:01] <les> heh
[22:22:05] <robin_sz> poor and miserabel just sucks
[22:22:16] <pfred1> nah the most miseraberale pricks I've ever met are always rich
[22:22:26] <robin_sz> shurg
[22:22:31] <anonimasu> heh
[22:22:36] <les> like me...I made a bit of money this year so far...and Robin knows I am about to spend a bunch of it
[22:22:42] <robin_sz> I can think of plenty of rich guys who are very very happy
[22:23:11] <pfred1> it sucks even in minimum security federal prison you know?
[22:23:25] <robin_sz> shrug
[22:23:30] <pfred1> they all always get busted for tax evasion
[22:23:33] <les> no tell me about life there heh
[22:23:38] <robin_sz> rich guys dont go to prison
[22:23:53] <pfred1> when they cheat the government out of it's cut they sure as hell do!
[22:24:00] <robin_sz> rarely
[22:24:04] <rayh> tax evasion is an honorable profession!
[22:24:17] <pfred1> cheat on your taxes well when it's 2.2 million things change
[22:24:28] <pfred1> when you owe 2.2 mils in back taxes
[22:24:31] <les> I am pretty poor I guess
[22:24:39] <robin_sz> pfred1: wrong
[22:24:46] <les> but I can blow money on silly things some
[22:24:49] <pfred1> no they lockedh is ass up
[22:24:54] <robin_sz> pfred1: when did MS last pay taxes?
[22:24:58] <pfred1> this guy gave his kid a Maseratti
[22:25:00] <les> heh
[22:25:04] <pfred1> you do things that silly with your money?
[22:25:22] <pfred1> being as the kid didn't appreciate it
[22:25:24] <les> yes.
[22:25:26] <rayh> I gave each of my kids a rolls
[22:25:30] <pfred1> and was constantly wrecking it
[22:25:34] <rayh> matchbox
[22:25:39] <robin_sz> pfred1: listen, poor people pay no tax, rich people pay no tax, the only guys paying tax are the working guys. fact.
[22:25:48] <pfred1> yeah I know another guy who gave his kid's rolls
[22:26:11] <pfred1> he owns 47 parking garages in Manhatthan amongst other things
[22:26:11] <les> my only regret about not having big $$$ is...
[22:26:22] <anonimasu> pfred1: is that why I pay loads of tax.. :)
[22:26:30] <pfred1> his kid's allowence was $2,500 a month this is back in 1980
[22:26:35] <les> not having a new Piper archer II in a hangar waiting for me.
[22:26:41] <les> that's about it
[22:26:50] <pfred1> that kid would buy an ounce of coke throw the bag on the table and just say blow it
[22:26:51] <robin_sz> a II .. I thought they did a III
[22:26:56] <rayh> My wish is a g5
[22:27:04] <les> III sorry
[22:27:07] <les> bad key
[22:27:15] <rayh> Only problem is all the airports around here are much to short.
[22:27:36] <robin_sz> rayh: if you were really rich, youd just build one :)
[22:27:40] <les> I took archers to your area a bit ray
[22:27:42] <pfred1> whenever i think the people in this town are too rich I just have to think about Short Hills
[22:27:44] <les> close anyway
[22:28:06] <rayh> the lake is long enough for pontoons or skis.
[22:28:27] <rayh> There were three guys who kept ski planes on it for a while.
[22:29:32] <pfred1> I want to go back to my favorite lake
[22:29:56] <pfred1> but it's too long a drive
[22:30:02] <rayh> which is?
[22:30:03] <les> I kinda miss the water...grew up on it
[22:30:08] <pfred1> Chamberlain Lake
[22:30:22] <pfred1> I've had a lot of fun there
[22:30:28] <les> where is that?
[22:30:32] <pfred1> upstate Maine
[22:30:37] <les> oh
[22:30:42] <pfred1> northwest of Millonocket
[22:30:54] <pfred1> bout the only place on the map anywhere's near it
[22:31:14] <les> I grew up on places like the indian river in florida
[22:31:24] <pfred1> yeah whenever i'm 60 miles from the nearest phone line i begin to relax
[22:31:27] <les> swatting mosquitos and sand flies
[22:31:36] <pfred1> les I've lived on the Indian River
[22:31:42] <pfred1> right on the drive
[22:31:43] <les> oh?
[22:31:47] <les> where?
[22:31:53] <pfred1> yeah my aunt owns right of passage on it
[22:31:57] <pfred1> Ft Pierce
[22:32:13] <pfred1> she's got a big front yard
[22:32:18] <pfred1> too bad it's all under water :)
[22:32:23] <les> heh...my kids live in FT pierce
[22:32:26] <pfred1> nah i used it
[22:32:33] <les> I lived in palm bay
[22:32:45] <robin_sz> http://www.theregister.com/2005/04/08/spammer_faces_slammer/
[22:32:52] <pfred1> yeah she's about 3 miles north of the causeway
[22:32:59] <les> I do miss it a bunch
[22:33:03] <pfred1> the Jensen Beach causeway
[22:33:08] <les> I go there some though
[22:33:14] <dmess> found said spreadsheet and removed all unnecessary copyright notices...
[22:33:19] <les> it's a big mess now
[22:33:37] <pfred1> I guess i used to have good times there
[22:33:44] <dmess> hey.. i resemble that remark..
[22:33:50] <les> heh
[22:33:51] <pfred1> she used to have the longest dock on the river I donno now
[22:34:00] <pfred1> it went all the way out to the intercoastal
[22:34:05] <les> I took pretty girls sailing on the river a lot
[22:34:07] <pfred1> was like a third o a mile?
[22:34:28] <pfred1> it was long that's all I remember don't evne know of she still has it though
[22:34:29] <dmess> i flied some pretty girls ...
[22:34:43] <les> in hang gliders?
[22:34:50] <les> yikes
[22:35:18] <CIA-9> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/generic.run: Tweak the run script to generate diffs without a date string embedded in the file name..
[22:35:33] <les> I fly pretty girls in general aviation aircraft a little
[22:35:48] <les> they usually puke in my lap
[22:36:10] <pfred1> they're not so pretty then are they?
[22:36:21] <rayh> that's almost as nice an "image" as tubgirl.
[22:36:36] <les> really it's horrible when they don't get to the bag
[22:36:51] <les> makes me sick too
[22:37:06] <les> I'm here to tell you
[22:37:16] <dmess> they fly no shoes... sometimes in a hg..
[22:37:45] <les> hg is better...puke just falls
[22:37:48] <dmess> naked othertimes.. but ya gotta wear a helmet... rules are rules...
[22:38:00] <les> heh
[22:38:04] <robin_sz> you have hg rules?
[22:38:07] <robin_sz> coo.
[22:38:30] <dmess> no it does NOT.... it ends up in the foot of the cacoon harness... i know.. i had to clean it
[22:39:05] <dmess> makes the control bar pretty gross too..
[22:39:18] <les> the only feeling I had in a HG is "you are gonna die...NOW"
[22:39:23] <robin_sz> heh
[22:39:28] <les> but that was in my poor design
[22:39:35] <rayh> reminds me I gotta start cooking supper.
[22:39:36] <dmess> or NOW... wait no now...
[22:39:37] <robin_sz> you should try a paraglider
[22:39:50] <robin_sz> one minute its a wing ...
[22:39:59] <robin_sz> next ....its a big ball of washing
[22:40:11] <les> I happen to be afraid of heights you know
[22:40:17] <les> heh
[22:40:24] <dmess> i have 35 hrs in a pg... 2 broken wrists a broken back and a busted ankle.. wanna talk pg with ME..
[22:40:27] <les> but have a PPL
[22:40:33] <les> figure that one out
[22:41:03] <dmess> same shit no bones in the chicken...
[22:41:44] <robin_sz> I must trade for a new pg
[22:41:52] <robin_sz> this one sinks like a brick
[22:41:56] <dmess> i came down in a spin from about 130' and forgot to bounce..
[22:41:57] <les> I am imagining dropping a garbage bag of chicken bones from a great height
[22:42:13] <dmess> robin.. what do you fly
[22:42:29] <robin_sz> a uk thing called a "harley typhoon"
[22:42:30] <asdfqwega> Hm...maybe I should try flying...my guardian angel needs the workout
[22:42:53] <robin_sz> dmess: ancient now ..
[22:43:00] <les> asd it is fun to learn
[22:43:10] <les> $$$
[22:43:16] <les> but very fun
[22:43:28] <dmess> tandem hg... www.uflyontario.com... so is my apco prima... but still crisp
[22:43:36] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega thinks of the IBM commercial - "Where are the flying cars? I was promised flying cars!"
[22:43:44] <robin_sz> dmess: had various things ailes d k pantair was the most lethal I think
[22:43:47] <pfred1> I want my flying car!
[22:44:19] <les> me for a nice docile c172 thank you very much
[22:44:26] <dmess> anythingh sonds like pany... for pantglider i wouldnt fly
[22:44:45] <robin_sz> the pantiar had carbon spars down the le
[22:44:57] <asdfqwega> me too!
[22:45:01] <robin_sz> quick for its day
[22:45:02] <asdfqwega> I've some old PopMech magazines around here with ads for "build your own flying car"
[22:45:05] <dmess> ohh.. sabers in FRONT of you
[22:45:09] <les> oh I flew the katana that had that
[22:45:13] <robin_sz> but when it frontal tucked, it stayed tucked
[22:45:24] <les> vinyl ester plastic plane
[22:45:54] <dmess> ever HG'd
[22:45:57] <robin_sz> oh you know that doiesel my mate had stall last week?
[22:46:07] <les> aw US certified light ac won't hardly stall
[22:46:11] <les> just mush
[22:46:14] <robin_sz> not stall
[22:46:18] <les> at least in utility
[22:46:18] <robin_sz> aero
[22:46:24] <robin_sz> stall motor not starty
[22:46:40] <les> really
[22:46:43] <robin_sz> yeah ...
[22:46:46] <robin_sz> in a diesel
[22:46:52] <robin_sz> while taxying ...
[22:47:02] <robin_sz> the ecu said "no more go roundy"
[22:47:12] <les> heh
[22:47:16] <robin_sz> anyway,
[22:47:23] <robin_sz> CAA grounded the entire type
[22:47:30] <dmess> outta feull ey
[22:48:04] <robin_sz> and hes sending all 3 back
[22:48:15] <les> in training my instructor had me set mixture to idle cutoff then stall the plane till the prop stopped
[22:48:23] <les> glad he did that
[22:48:36] <les> since I had to do it again later
[22:48:41] <pfred1> les he really took a shine to you huh?
[22:48:51] <les> heh
[22:48:57] <les> he was good
[22:49:16] <les> people always think their instructor was good though
[22:49:28] <robin_sz> les: these http://www.diamond-air.at/en/products/DA40/index.htm
[22:49:46] <dmess> once you CAN fly... start practising for the crap that could hit ya...
[22:50:18] <pfred1> a hero dies but once a coward dies a thousand times
[22:50:33] <dmess> hey those the same ones that traint the terrorist dudes>???
[22:50:40] <les> robin robin...!!! I am checked out on that aircraft
[22:50:54] <les> has a stick
[22:51:13] <robin_sz> and an engine that works ...
[22:51:15] <les> prop is carbon fiber covered balsa
[22:51:16] <robin_sz> most of the time
[22:51:17] <les> or was
[22:51:19] <dmess> there are old pilots and BOLD pilots... but no old, bold pilots...
[22:51:30] <les> heh
[22:51:34] <robin_sz> this one had a vp prop
[22:51:38] <les> flown one robin?
[22:51:44] <robin_sz> nope
[22:51:59] <robin_sz> I had the offer ...
[22:52:00] <les> I had some troble with the glide ratio
[22:52:13] <robin_sz> yeah slippy huh?
[22:52:24] <les> when checking out on it first 3 landings I had to do a full slip
[22:52:39] <robin_sz> heh
[22:52:41] <les> and it still would glide better than an archer
[22:52:48] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:53:02] <robin_sz> Propeller MT, 3 blade hydraulic constant speed propeller
[22:53:13] <les> I paid some money to get checked out on it
[22:53:18] <robin_sz> the diesel is handled by an ECU ...
[22:53:23] <les> yeah it had a pitch control
[22:53:42] <robin_sz> this one apparently varies the engine speed and the prop all on its own
[22:53:51] <robin_sz> you just have a "power" lever ..
[22:54:01] <robin_sz> it "does things" to get you that power
[22:54:06] <les> It also has a turkey bastwer pop up temp thing between the seats
[22:54:06] <dmess> oh nice a computer program to rely on...
[22:54:11] <les> baster
[22:54:20] <les> if it pops up...no fly
[22:54:35] <les> plastic too soft
[22:54:39] <dmess> brds DONE
[22:54:51] <les> They have changed them a bit I know
[22:54:56] <robin_sz> well, he was just happy about the engine quitting during taxi, not take off
[22:55:02] <les> the one I flew was rotax gas
[22:55:08] <les> with a ptch lever
[22:55:26] <robin_sz> thats the 2nd of the 3 they have thats done an engien quit .. and less than 2 months old ..
[22:55:32] <robin_sz> so they all went back this week
[22:55:36] <les> hmm
[22:55:37] <robin_sz> with a nasty letter
[22:56:05] <les> I was always concerned about the bubble canopy latches
[22:56:21] <robin_sz> hinge at the back?
[22:56:27] <les> would hate to have the thing fold back in flight
[22:56:59] <les> know what? even with the tiny engines those things are FAST
[22:57:07] <robin_sz> yeah I know
[22:57:11] <robin_sz> that was the good part
[22:57:22] <les> they are so slick
[22:57:27] <robin_sz> make sour emeraude look painful
[22:57:32] <les> they just won't come down
[22:57:36] <robin_sz> makes our emeraude look painful
[22:57:40] <les> heh
[22:58:03] <les> bad ride in turbulence though
[22:58:10] <les> low wing loading
[22:58:18] <les> but a joy on a nice day
[22:58:46] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:58:49] <les> oh nose wheel is not steerable
[22:58:56] <les> brakes to turn
[22:59:05] <robin_sz> http://tagazous.free.fr/photos/highdef/694.jpg #my mate Giles's thing (or one like it anyway)
[22:59:13] <robin_sz> tail dragger :)
[22:59:54] <robin_sz> flies OK, excellent rate of roll
[23:00:18] <les> I do not have a tail dragger rating
[23:00:36] <pfred1> I been dragging my tail today
[23:00:40] <les> and if FS 204 is any indication...I don't want one
[23:00:40] <robin_sz> http://www.gsazz.co.uk/Plane_Images/CP23501_1.JPG # another .. see the short stubby wings
[23:00:51] <robin_sz> FS204?
[23:00:56] <les> 2004
[23:00:57] <A-L-P-H-A> know what sucks. Having like 6 pairs of safety glasses, but I'm down to 1 now. My father takes them when he doe sanything now.
[23:01:32] <pfred1> safety glasses are overrated
[23:01:41] <robin_sz> les: for a wood & cloth homebuilt, they are nice enough ...
[23:01:49] <les> alpha: all safety glasses vanish. just like disposable lighters and pens.
[23:01:51] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1, that is by far the stupidest thing you've said.
[23:01:59] <A-L-P-H-A> les, I've noticed.
[23:02:05] <pfred1> I've jackhammered without them
[23:02:34] <les> brb
[23:02:50] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: we play with high powere lasers, in the open, no safety glasses
[23:03:04] <pfred1> A-L-P-H-A if you ever have to jackhammer and they give you a choice between glasses and ear protection go with the ear protection!
[23:03:24] <robin_sz> pfred1: good choice.
[23:03:28] <pfred1> you can always close your eyes ")
[23:03:57] <pfred1> but I've jackhammered without ear protection too
[23:04:16] <robin_sz> yep
[23:04:26] <pfred1> man you can't hear jack for like 3 days after that!
[23:04:26] <robin_sz> eye damage will make you blind
[23:04:32] <robin_sz> but at least you'll live
[23:04:37] <pfred1> nah I've embedded concrete in my eyes
[23:04:52] <robin_sz> tinitus is often fatal
[23:04:55] <pfred1> doc cokes you up swabs it out
[23:05:01] <les> I require my workers to wear them
[23:05:12] <les> they all need glasses anyway
[23:05:22] <les> might as wel be safety glasses
[23:05:26] <robin_sz> yep
[23:05:34] <robin_sz> ears are more of a worry for me
[23:05:49] <robin_sz> id rather be blind than have tinitus
[23:05:54] <les> I check my hearing often
[23:06:05] <pfred1> what? i can't hear you over the ringing
[23:06:11] <robin_sz> at least you can sleep with impaired eyesight
[23:06:32] <les> almost all males in industrial countries get some tinnitus
[23:06:33] <pfred1> well it's more of a hissing buzzing actually
[23:06:53] <robin_sz> well, look after your ears ...
[23:06:58] <les> it can be a hissing or ringing
[23:07:07] <pfred1> nah just keep buying more powerful amplifiers!
[23:07:26] <les> when I was 18 I could hear to 27 kHz
[23:07:34] <les> now about 12 or 14
[23:07:37] <robin_sz> coo
[23:07:41] <robin_sz> 27 is high
[23:07:42] <pfred1> could you jump in the water and bring back a duck too?
[23:07:43] <les> huh?
[23:07:54] <les> eh?
[23:07:58] <pfred1> here les good boy!
[23:08:15] <pfred1> 27 KHz heh
[23:08:36] <les> yes my dad was an engineer too so I had the gear to test it
[23:08:50] <robin_sz> tinitus is reckoned to be the second cause of suicide after depression
[23:08:58] <les> rapid drop off in 20's
[23:09:08] <les> robin really
[23:09:24] <robin_sz> so i was informed
[23:09:25] <pfred1> the older i get the less Iwant to hear anyways so it's all working out OK by me
[23:09:53] <les> well I am an audio type so it matters
[23:10:04] <les> but it still goes so what can I do
[23:10:10] <pfred1> it's cool as long as it's loud
[23:10:15] <robin_sz> les: when it gets so bad you cant sleep due ot the ringing, you top yourself
[23:10:24] <les> yikes
[23:10:28] <pfred1> I like it so it feels like you're getting punched in the chest
[23:10:32] <les> I have some
[23:10:35] <robin_sz> heh
[23:10:54] <pfred1> polypropelyne drivers are cool!
[23:11:02] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:11:11] <robin_sz> 12" minimum
[23:11:14] <les> mine is at two frequencies...about 8 and 12 khz
[23:11:34] <les> the tinnitus
[23:11:36] <robin_sz> i have a ring at about 15k
[23:11:53] <robin_sz> like a tv monitor
[23:11:53] <pfred1> mine is sort of like this wheeeeeeeeee sound
[23:12:06] <les> it's just damaged hair cells firing all the time
[23:12:11] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:12:22] <robin_sz> ever seen a electron microscope phot of the damage?
[23:12:34] <pfred1> yeah well even at our best we're sucky sensors really
[23:12:41] <les> I guess you condition to it/...but only up toa point
[23:13:19] <pfred1> and whatever our senses don't get right our brains distort anyways
[23:13:23] <les> my tinnitus is about at oh...30 or 40 dba
[23:13:28] <les> fairly normal
[23:13:54] <les> not audible usually
[23:14:11] <les> just in a quiet bedroom or something
[23:14:29] <pfred1> I got a TV going and the PC and i can hear a whizzing sound
[23:14:53] <pfred1> circular saws can be loud
[23:15:01] <pfred1> ever notice?
[23:15:05] <les> well tv horizontal is 15750 Hz....if you can hear that your ok
[23:15:12] <pfred1> oh know what tool i got I wear my ear plugs with today?
[23:15:20] <pfred1> my thickness planer
[23:15:21] <les> ?
[23:15:29] <pfred1> man that thing is noisy
[23:15:30] <les> mine can be loud
[23:16:03] <les> they are usually above 90 dba/i meter
[23:16:07] <pfred1> if i plane like a hard oak with it or something
[23:16:12] <robin_sz> les: 15.625khz
[23:16:21] <les> for you
[23:16:26] <les> mr PAL
[23:16:36] <robin_sz> PAL/I :)
[23:16:50] <robin_sz> none of your PAL/G muck
[23:17:02] <robin_sz> or is it PAL/M
[23:17:04] <robin_sz> I forget
[23:18:13] <robin_sz> the I/G/M bit is the audio subcarrier freq only, I didnt do transmissions :)
[23:18:20] <les> we always loved pal...you got to actually see all colors on a tv...we didn't
[23:18:23] <pfred1> I play the guitar and I'm OK with electronics so I'm not too concerned with my eharing
[23:18:30] <pfred1> hearing even
[23:18:44] <pfred1> when it gets worse I'll make a more powerful amplifier
[23:18:45] <robin_sz> pfred1: your hearing is damaged?
[23:19:06] <pfred1> robin_sz I'm a powertool nut so sure that and I like hard rock music
[23:19:16] <robin_sz> ok, well .. if your eyesight was dmamaged, how much care would you take of your remianing eye?
[23:19:23] <les> I played guitar in a crummy rock band in my youth and it did not help
[23:19:44] <robin_sz> as I said, if you go blind .. at least you can sleep
[23:19:44] <pfred1> les what kind of music did you guys try to play?
[23:20:01] <robin_sz> bad tinitus will keep you awake ...
[23:20:02] <les> I use the "just turn it up more" thing too as hearing declines
[23:20:15] <pfred1> robin_sz I can sleep on a picket fence
[23:20:24] <pfred1> I have fallen asleep on concrete steps before
[23:20:35] <pfred1> behind the wheel of a car
[23:20:39] <les> pfred: 1969.... does that give a clue?
[23:20:48] <robin_sz> well, as I said, people kill themselves to escape tinitus
[23:20:54] <pfred1> les Iggy Pop and the Stoodges?
[23:20:55] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:21:02] <les> scary
[23:21:06] <pfred1> well it's 1969 OK
[23:21:07] <les> pfred no
[23:21:13] <pfred1> war across the USA ...
[23:21:14] <les> cream
[23:21:20] <pfred1> cream is cool
[23:21:26] <les> beatles
[23:21:30] <pfred1> disreali gears
[23:21:35] <robin_sz> led zeppelin for me
[23:21:37] <pfred1> the beatles i can leave
[23:21:37] <les> hendrix some(too hard)
[23:21:43] <les> yardbirds
[23:21:46] <les> animals
[23:21:50] <pfred1> love love them i don't
[23:22:06] <pfred1> the wussiest laser show we ever went to was a beatles show
[23:22:11] <pfred1> man their fans!
[23:22:19] <robin_sz> Robert Plant live just up the road from me too ;)
[23:22:26] <les> stratocasters, gretches, and fender super reverbs
[23:22:27] <pfred1> the led zeppelin laser show now that was a rowdy crowd
[23:22:41] <pfred1> I saw Jimmy Page in the Outrider band here
[23:22:53] <robin_sz> and Rush .. im a big rush fan
[23:22:54] <pfred1> I was suprised he kicked ass that nite
[23:23:07] <les> aw we played barmitzfahs and dances that is as far as we got
[23:23:17] <les> have only one recording
[23:23:18] <robin_sz> I last saw mr Plant ... , hmm, benefit gig at the local tennis club :)
[23:23:19] <pfred1> hey that's public
[23:23:28] <les> heh
[23:23:37] <pfred1> led zeppelin was Page's band he hired the rest
[23:23:43] <les> right
[23:23:54] <pfred1> Mr. Rock and Roll
[23:24:08] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:24:11] <les> pretty much
[23:24:16] <robin_sz> page and plant .. thats what really made it rock
[23:24:19] <pfred1> he's the guy everyone's mother warned them about
[23:24:25] <robin_sz> heh
[23:25:15] <les> For what it's worth...I have commissioned some art posters of hendrix and clapton for my music room
[23:25:23] <robin_sz> oh yeah,
[23:25:25] <les> That says it all I guess
[23:25:31] <robin_sz> you said ..
[23:25:36] <dmess> dmess remembers rush s a bar/ highschool band
[23:25:40] <pfred1>
[23:25:47] <les> Yeah I met a guy that is a really good illustrator
[23:25:53] <pfred1> how the hell he play that thing slung so low?
[23:25:54] <dmess> EC rulz
[23:26:06] <les> I am putting him on some cnc cam logos too
[23:26:09] <les> he is good
[23:26:31] <robin_sz> pfred1: ever seen Wilco Johnson?
[23:26:39] <pfred1> maybe donno
[23:26:46] <dmess> EC is GODZ
[23:26:48] <robin_sz> ex Dr Feelgood
[23:26:54] <pfred1> Rush never impressed me i went to school with a kid who was a better drumemr than Niel Pert
[23:26:56] <dmess> jj cale
[23:27:25] <robin_sz> now .. Wilco plays it low .. and even behind his head .. thats kewl
[23:27:37] <robin_sz> pfred1: saw them on the last tour, Rush still rock
[23:27:41] <dmess> Better than Neil... i'd have to witness... He has no rival on a 27 pc kit
[23:28:07] <les> I used to be kind of heavily involved with guitars, guitar making , and audio a long time ago.
[23:28:14] <les> a long time ago.
[23:28:20] <pfred1> this kid named Brad miller his band covered Rush tunes and let me tell you Brad was fast and I guess you'd have to have seen him
[23:28:32] <robin_sz> well,
[23:28:34] <robin_sz> its late
[23:28:43] <dmess> seen AfriCan guitars...
[23:28:47] <robin_sz> im going, before the wife wakes up
[23:28:50] <robin_sz> cya
[23:28:53] <les> heh
[23:28:57] <les> bye
[23:29:04] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves
[23:29:14] <dmess> l8r
[23:29:17] <pfred1> he was such a laid back guy though I guess he never pursued his talent
[23:29:34] <les> I must show you some of my old guitars sometime.
[23:29:54] <les> Now...I play mostly sitar.
[23:29:55] <pfred1> I have to fix up some guitars i have here
[23:29:58] <les> hard.
[23:30:06] <pfred1> some no name junkers I want to work on them
[23:30:07] <dmess> i have a friend like that... play like EC all nit.. ask him to hit the stage.. he'd say no thank you
[23:30:22] <les> Some of my lutier friends use the cnc a bit
[23:30:28] <les> luthier
[23:30:36] <pfred1> brad got into some cover bands I mean this guy could give me goose bumps when he played
[23:30:42] <pfred1> I never ever heard anyone like him
[23:31:14] <les> trying tothink of best I ever heard
[23:31:17] <pfred1> he was like an idiot savant
[23:31:25] <dmess> as donald did .... make it cry and sing..
[23:31:32] <pfred1> because he wasn't very bright you know?
[23:31:47] <pfred1> but man he could hold 4 beats
[23:31:56] <pfred1> he'd freak me out showing me that
[23:31:58] <dmess> oh we all shared the small buss to school... ; (
[23:32:05] <les> aw overall...I'll say Hendrix
[23:32:13] <pfred1> hendrix had no talent
[23:32:20] <pfred1> he was a cover player
[23:32:21] <les> heh
[23:32:32] <les> he was bad at first
[23:32:33] <pfred1> if you listen to enough of him he didn't really have a whole lot of range really
[23:32:37] <dmess> studio musician
[23:32:48] <pfred1> sure he had some neat tricks
[23:33:01] <pfred1> but overall I think even he knew it
[23:33:05] <dmess> showman though
[23:33:17] <les> well he has the biggest poster in my music room
[23:33:19] <pfred1> yeah he knew how to be on a stage
[23:33:32] <dmess> iv got a pbs video of the crossroads...
[23:33:37] <pfred1> I think I got like every live show he's ever recorded
[23:33:41] <les> many were technically better
[23:33:45] <les> john M
[23:33:56] <pfred1> John Mclaughlin?
[23:33:59] <pfred1> now he's God
[23:34:00] <dmess> guitar gods show... awesome
[23:34:01] <les> yeah.
[23:34:22] <pfred1> John Mclaughlin could make even God get down on his knees
[23:34:29] <les> yes
[23:34:29] <dmess> whos heard Classical Gas??
[23:34:41] <pfred1> I've got a ton of his stuff
[23:34:55] <pfred1> him and Al Dimeola
[23:35:04] <les> al is good
[23:35:18] <pfred1> ah solo I'm not so into him he's good with John though
[23:35:25] <pfred1> he's sort of sterile alone
[23:35:31] <les> some
[23:36:03] <pfred1> you seen the Zeppelin DVD?
[23:36:10] <les> nope
[23:36:11] <pfred1> I got a rip of it here
[23:36:16] <pfred1> it's very cool
[23:36:24] <pfred1> I downloaded it off usenet
[23:36:42] <les> have to put things into perspective
[23:36:48] <les> I'm old
[23:37:00] <pfred1> my spring was a while ago
[23:37:05] <dmess> send along... ;)
[23:37:07] <les> I learned the guitar when I was 14 and heard the beatles
[23:37:22] <pfred1> I been playing since i was 16 I still haven't learned :)
[23:37:28] <pfred1> but I'm having fun!
[23:37:40] <les> took lessons though for a while
[23:37:46] <les> classical guitar
[23:37:53] <pfred1> i took a few I was like this isn't what I am looking for
[23:37:57] <dmess> same here wont attes to carrying a tube in a ucket though
[23:38:23] <pfred1> dmess I can throw some of the extras onto my server for you
[23:38:28] <les> in my teens guitar and music and sound was it
[23:38:32] <les> that was life
[23:38:35] <pfred1> the main files are pretty big I've have to slice them
[23:38:47] <dmess> sure wifeys a LARGE Zep fan
[23:38:49] <les> same with my son now
[23:38:53] <pfred1> les you wanted to be Dick Dale huh?
[23:39:01] <les> huh?
[23:39:15] <pfred1> if you're that old you should know who Dick Dale is!
[23:39:27] <les> I am not that old.
[23:39:28] <pfred1> Dick Dale and the Deltones
[23:39:35] <pfred1> he was big in the 60's
[23:39:51] <les> too far back..I was messin my diapers then
[23:39:58] <pfred1> he played west coast surf music fastest guitarist that's ever lived
[23:40:03] <les> oh
[23:40:05] <dmess> really.. there was a sixties??
[23:40:06] <pfred1> he could melt a pick
[23:40:14] <pfred1> playing
[23:40:39] <les> sixties were cool...we played music...free love...took lsd.
[23:40:42] <pfred1> I can hear his "big song" in my head i forget it's name though
[23:40:44] <les> and protested
[23:40:52] <pfred1> same thing we did in the 80s
[23:40:59] <les> heh
[23:40:59] <anonimasu> lol
[23:41:00] <dmess> hmm.. sonds like Canada
[23:41:03] <pfred1> maybe it's an every 20 year thing?
[23:41:10] <les> yeah
[23:41:26] <dmess> we bitch .. no war..
[23:41:30] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:41:54] <dmess> burn some herb.. get em all buzzed and sneak home..
[23:41:55] <les> I now have an 18 year old son that has high grades but has dropped out of college to play in a rock band.
[23:42:08] <les> what do I say?
[23:42:14] <pfred1> Canadian military practice, raising their hands over their heads
[23:42:14] <les> go for it.
[23:42:16] <dmess> with them thinkin were off doing somethin'
[23:42:20] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:42:47] <pfred1> les entertainment is a viable business today not everything school teaches the same can be said
[23:42:56] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:43:02] <dmess> no... we can hide better tha osama...bin hidin
[23:43:06] <les> yeah
[23:43:28] <pfred1> really I think as things go on art will be more important a career for humans
[23:43:41] <pfred1> things like CNC marginalize humans
[23:43:42] <les> gifted math program inscholl...now plays a stratocaster. I say fine.
[23:43:49] <dmess> agreed PF
[23:43:55] <pfred1> no make him play a Gibson!
[23:43:58] <les> I am not gonna be likre my parents were
[23:44:03] <pfred1> Fenders are crap!
[23:44:15] <anonimasu> it's not the guitar that matter's it's who's playing it :)
[23:44:41] <pfred1> yeah i got this one part of that zep where Jimmy plays this total piece of crap guitar
[23:44:47] <dmess> i like my REGENT vintage sears 1971
[23:44:47] <les> oh fenders are cool...plate voltage 50% over max...TWANG
[23:44:48] <pfred1> but man he wails on it!
[23:45:22] <pfred1> I should just rip out that passage
[23:46:14] <les> Fender amps are the true meaning of wonderfu lthird harmonic distortion
[23:46:48] <dmess> pf you statement about margiinalizing humans would seem in error to me..
[23:47:11] <dmess> we are but the interface to a new medium...
[23:47:56] <les> pity...we need a serious party in my music room. Drink beer and argue...when we can hear over the music.
[23:48:06] <pfred1> ah it's a Danelectric guitar Jimmy is using
[23:48:23] <les> danelectro
[23:48:30] <les> chipboard guitar
[23:48:31] <pfred1> OK Danelectro
[23:48:32] <les> cool
[23:48:37] <pfred1> yeah it's a total POS
[23:48:44] <les> but cool
[23:48:53] <pfred1> I gotta rip this one passage
[23:49:26] <dmess> listen to the sound of this...
[23:49:31] <dmess> http://www.messier-dowty.com/programs/787.asp
[23:49:41] <dmess> wrong link..
[23:49:45] <les> the danelectro electric sitar was so cool
[23:49:54] <dmess> http://www.gruhnguitars.com/afri-can/acan.html
[23:50:00] <les> and was made out of chipboard heh
[23:50:50] <les> neat link
[23:50:52] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:51:09] <anonimasu> he's own is a bit drug inspired.
[23:51:18] <les> heh
[23:51:20] <dmess> lookin for the link to the sound rm
[23:51:32] <anonimasu> ok
[23:51:36] <pfred1> ack even this is going to be huge!
[23:52:49] <pfred1> well I'll throw it on my server who wants to try to get this? I cna only up at like 30KB/s it's 120MB
[23:53:02] <les> I can do that
[23:53:07] <pfred1> OK
[23:53:27] <Dmess2> i should too.. but 1 at a time
[23:54:45] <les> this is fun..I sure like music.
[23:54:45] <pfred1> I should try to reencode it to a smaller codec
[23:54:47] <pfred1> I bet i could reencode it to 60% of it's size and not lose anything
[23:55:52] <les> well this is fun
[23:56:08] <pfred1> les what is?
[23:57:15] <pfred1> yeah let me try to reeocode this clip
[23:57:22] <les> remember I was an audio r&d engineer at shure bros a long time ago
[23:57:35] <les> designed rock stage gear and stuff
[23:57:43] <pfred1> les remember this thing got recorded in like 1970
[23:57:49] <pfred1> but it still looks good
[23:58:27] <les> downlading some stuff now
[23:59:18] <pfred1> woo my system is managing 46 fps on this rip
[23:59:34] <les> listening now