Friday, December 2, 2011

Developing your raw bench - Part 2

Grip - 

How you grip the bar, both in terms of width, force, and thumb/no thumb is going to be a very individualized thing.  

People always ask me how many inches between my hands.  I have no clue.  I've never measured it.............until just now.  It's roughly 15 inches of space between my hands.  This is not something that concerns me, I just know that's where I feel comfortable, and where I have been benching for a few years now and my shoulders have given me all sorts of handshakes and man hugs for it.  

So obviously I'm going to preach benching with a closer grip, because unless you're one of those t-rex short-armed-can't-deadlift-shit-made-for-bench-pressing bench pressers, it's probably a good idea to save your shoulders.  Guys that are built for benching seem to be able to get away with that super wide grip shit I see.  All that did/does is make my pec tendons and shoulders hurt.  Plus let's be honest, someone close gripping 550 like Konstantinovs is more badass than some fat t-rex armed bench only guy, gripping shit out to the collars, to belly press 600.  

Also, since many guys that stop in here don't even compete, and that's ok, it's all the more reason to bench with a closer grip.  Not only that, it's my belief that a close grip bench has better carryover into sports.  Get into a fighting stance or into a drive blocking stance as an offensive lineman.  Your hands aren't wide as hell.  They are close to your body, where power can be generated starting at the hips.  

I personally think all guys should be benching closer, but too many guys are afraid of the ego hit and continue on down the path of torn pecs and achy rotator cuffs.  

Now, as far as where the thumb goes, I grip thumbless.  I have forever now.  Yes, it's more dangerous.  So what?  

Ok that's out of the way.

Now I think that benching thumbless, like overhead pressing thumbless, puts the bar into a better power path.  If it does it for the overhead press almost automagically, why wouldn't it do it for the bench?

Well, mainly because most guys still have the bar too far back in their hand.  The bar basically sets on the palms of your hands when you bench thumbless, however I still grip the bar tight with my fingers.  In over 20 years of benching like this, I've only had it come out of my hands twice.  Decent odds I suppose.

If you decide to go with your thumb around the bar, I recommend being very cognitive of not letting the bar get too far back into your hand.  When that happens the wrist is in a bent position and again, you lose leverage over the bar.  This is bad and you will bench press poorly.

I also don't buy into the whole kinetic energy thing about gripping the bar as hard as possible.  Yes, I understand the theory behind it, however the path the bar travels in is far more important than that.  If it weren't, then guys wouldn't overhead press more with a thumbless grip, than full grip.  But they do.  This is because the path of the bar outweighs the importance of gripping it hard.  Gripping the bar hard may help you "feel" tighter, but if the path of the bar is completely fucked, then it won't matter.  You will press less weight.  

Assistance Work - 

Anyone who has read through my nonsense knows I am not a believer in training "weak points" when it comes to a movement.

I always have to clarify what that means, however.  I do not believe in training "the lockout" or "weak points in the ROM".  I think this is nonsense and a complete waste of time.  Especially for raw guys.  If your bench is stuck, gain weight or just get stronger.  The majority of raw guys don't miss at lockout, they miss about 6 inches off the chest, or about halfway up where the transition starts.  This is NOT the lockout.  I've never seen a raw guy miss at lockout.  Lockout to me is the last quarter range of motion.  

People never understand what "get stronger" means either.  It means what I say.  Get stronger.  I don't understand what's hard about that to understand?

Mike Tuchscherer is really fuckin smart by the way, and I have used this story before.  But basically he helped a guy out whose bench press was stuck for a while, and he helped him get stronger at the bottom, and locking X amount of weight out no longer became a problem.  Unlike Mike, people tend to do shit backwards in regards to this.  They do a bunch of fucking board presses and lockout work.  This does NOT address the issue.  Namely that you aren't generating enough velocity from the start at the movement to finish it.

Think about it.

If you can do a 3 or 4 board press with 100 more pounds than you can bench, but you keep saying you are failing at lockout, then how the fuck does doing board presses fix that issue?  You're already PROVING to yourself that you can lockout WAY more than you can press with the board presses.  So do you REALLY need to make your lockout stronger?  You know, when you can ALREADY lockout way more than you can use in a full ROM?  Where is the "weak point" at?  It's at the bottom.  Duh.  

Common sense people.

You need to get stronger off the bottom.  One day some big named mother fucker is going to start driving this home and people are going to act like it's the first time someone wrote it.  Now that Scott Yard and Chad Wesley Smith have deemed box squats virtually useless for raw most guys, everyone is like "ohhhh ok, that makes sense" when I have been writing this shit for 10 years.  

Look, there is no "weak point" training required, nor does it fix anything.  Not when we are talking about ROM in a movement.  Training specificity RULES.  This has been proven over and over and over and over and over again.  And in that regard, training the bottom portion of the actual lift, getting stronger there is where your money maker is.  This is why guys who have run my programs with paused benches and paused squats see such a big increase in those lifts.  Because when you get stronger off the bottom you can generate more velocity with X amount of weight.  More velocity means moving through your sticking point, not getting stuck at it.  You don't get stuck at your sticking point because you are weak there, you get stuck there because you haven't generated enough power to move through it with that particular weight.  

Notice where I miss this 435 close grip.  It's not at lockout.  It's halfway up.  

The power starts from the beginning of the movement.  And either you can generate enough power to move through the "sticking point" or you cannot, and you fail.  This is not about "weak points".  It's about power/strength.  Whenever you try a new weight that you aren't strong enough to lift, guess where you will fail at?  Yes, that same spot again.  That spot is never going to go away.  Stop fucking about trying to change this shit.  Just get stronger.  And mainly, get stronger off the bottom.  

Now look at 430 with a pause from my last meet........I obviously still left a few pounds on this lift.

I didn't train for weak points.  I just concentrated on getting stronger.  When I got stronger, that weight moved  with more speed off my chest.  Thus, I could make the lift.  I didn't do board presses or banded bench shit or chains or whatever.  

"Well you do partial deadlifts Paul.  What about that?"

This is a bench article, but for the sake of discussion, I do partial deadlifts below the knee because it puts you in a position of disadvantage compared to the regular deadlift.  Remember, do the things that are HARDER.

A lot of guys can lift less from those position than the floor.  Or even if they can lift more, it's not a lot.  Board presses let you lift more, but don't build bottom position strength.  Box squats aren't raw squats, it's a completely different lift and does the opposite of what a raw squat does (unloads the quads at the bottom).  I had some fat and weak internet "gurus" argue about this with me years ago as well.  And they were wrong.  

I also don't stop pulling from the floor. But that's another discussion so stop getting me sidetracked.

Where were we?  

Oh yeah, assistance work.

Let's get some other bullshit out of the way.  Doing lat work for benching makes no sense to me either.  This theory came about from geared benchers who actually need to pull the bar into their chest because the bench shirts have gotten so thick and tight, that guys have trouble touching.  Last time I checked, a raw guy never had trouble actually getting a completely empty bar to his chest.  You probably don't need to pull the bar into you.  This is dumb on a whole other level from a raw perspective.  Stop reading articles from geared benching about raw benching.  

Upperback work is good, however.  It will help you to be more stable on the bench, and this could help you lift more but that is mostly an indirect thing.  You should be doing upperback work anyway.  And if you are going to do upperback work here is a tip.......

Pull the bar or handle into the spot WHERE YOU BENCH FROM.  So if the bar hits you right at the pec line, then when you row, pull the bar or handle into that area.  This should make sense.  This is another reason why sloppy-ass fucking rows are a waste of time.  You need to be able to pull, and squeeze the rhomboids and learn what it feels like to contract that area as hard as possible.  Know the difference between moving weight, and making a muscle work.  You need to do both in your training.  Deadlifts are about moving weight.  Rowing should be about making your mid-back work.  

Bent laterals are also a good upperback/rear delt choice, as they will keep the shoulders healthy and balanced.  

Now as far as other pressing movements go, my personal favorite is just the good ol incline press.  I have found that my bench and incline seem to go up at the same time.  This could be for a million reasons, but I don't care why.  I just know it works for me.  So I program my incline with as much focus as my bench.  If the incline is up, the bench is up.  

As a raw guy, you also need to be aware of shoulder work.  Again, stop reading geared guys articles because they rarely talk about heavy overhead work, but every guy from the 70's and 80's that benched big, did heavy ass shoulder work.  So make sure you are doing some heavy shoulder work as well.  You can do this after bench or on a separate day.  But I will tell you that a lot of guys see big benefits from concentrating on getting their overhead work up.  I am just not one of them because my overhead strength has always been pretty good even if I don't train it.  I have found this to be common in guys who were naturally pretty solid overhead pressers.  Getting their overhead up didn't increase their bench much.

If your overhead strength sucks, generally you will see some movement on the bench, however.  I personally am ok with all kinds of overhead work, and since you won't be doing any overhead work at a powerlifting meet just build strength on it, don't demonstrate it.

Let me explain the difference.

Demonstrating strength is walking into the gym and hitting your heaviest single and that's it.

Building strength means doing some reps.  Triples, fives, eights, whatever.  If you're going to do singles, do them heavy and don't sit around all damn day between them.  This is lazy man training and is easy.  Getting stronger is not easy, it is hard and that's something people really need to come to terms with (minor rant for another article).

If it's overhead db work, try 5's and 8's and 10's.  If it's military or press behind the neck work, try 3's and 5's and 8's.  Pretty simple.  

I also want to throw in a shout out about elbow health and curls.  The biceps help stabilize the shoulder and elbow joint.  This seems somewhat important to me (sarcasm) so make sure and do curls.  Since I have really gotten after curls my elbows hurt very rarely now.  I have a couple of different things I like to do.  I like to do 1 day where I curl for 5 sets of 20 LIGHT.  And I mean like 65-75 pounds.  I don't rest long between sets.  Maybe a minute or less.  Then I have another day where I go heavier, but not under 8 reps, and do some rest/pause.  I go back and forth.  This has pretty much fixed the ache in my elbows.  Every once in a while they hurt slightly, but it's rare.  I'm pretty pain free in that regard.

In Part 3 I will talk about some of the routines I have used to boost my bench, and go over some other helpful pointers.


  1. good article but i do think is good to pulll the bar into you,not because lats but because it teach you to tuck you elbows during the lift

  2. Pulling the bar down has nothing to do with learning how to tuck your elbows. And also, as noted before, most raw guys don't need a big tuck, or much at all. Again, that's geared lifting philosophy.

  3. Such a great article, Overtraining and working out the way geared lifters do was getting me nowhere. I have actually seen my strength creep back up in the past few months while leaning down. Always frustrated the shit outa me that boardwork and insane amounts of lat work didnt seem to have much carryover for me.

  4. But when you row teh bar down your elbows get auomatically tucked

  5. You need to "row down" 300, 400, 500 pounds????

    Tucking the elbows is not a complicated task. You can do it without a bar in your hands. And you can row WITHOUT tucking too. One doesn't really have anything to do with the other.

  6. Probably about the best article so far, that I've read regarding raw benching. Nice job!

  7. this is awesome thank you so much paul

  8. awesome article as always paul, whats your opinion on bottom position bench presses in a power rack would they be suitable for assistance work

  9. I've never gotten the point of the whole "row the bar down" shit lifting raw. Makes zero sense to me. Set your back tight, hold that shit, and bench.

    Good article to Paul.

  10. Excellent articles Paul, I have a couple comments I'd be interested in getting your response to. These are all based on personal tendencies, so maybe they're worth noting or maybe I'm just a special little flower (at least that's what my mom told me, so it must be true, right?):

    1)What do you say to lifters who's elbows go bad before their shoulders? I have long skinny arms and over the past 2 years ANY period of pressing aggressively for volume would result in tendinitis. My shoulders on the other hand have been relatively healthy, even with benching prettying freaking wide (index on the rings) for someone of my size.

    2)This ties into the whole tendinitis thing, but any time I've tried to work OHP into my routine...bam, bad elbows for a month. My point isn't to complain that I can't do them, but simply to point out that with the upper back work of pullups and chinups along with rows and regular bench training, not OHP isn't holding my bench back.

    3)This is a far more general point that I'd like to make and it's really just my opinion, but it seems to be that once you get to a certain point in your training as an individual, your bench to body weight ratio more or less stays constant. Really good benchers at low body weights might be able to hit 2x, though 1.5x seems to be about average for a serious strength athlete. Point being, once you reach a certain point, to get your bench bigger you've just gotta put on weight. And given the relative magnitude (or lack thereof) of the lift compared to squats or deadlifts, there's much less room for improvement if your weight stays constant.

    4)There seems to be strong almost 1:1 correlation between a 1RM bench and 5RM dips (I mean total weight of body + additional weight). I realize we must be careful in assuming links of causality, but just something to note. There was a time when my bench refused to go up and just readjusting my focus to improve my 5 RM dip strength pulled me out of the hole.

    Anyway, just my two cents, hope it has some value. All the best,

  11. Note, your head spotter on the good 430 lift was like 5 times the size of the guy doing it on the miss. His gravitational pull must've been good for at least a little help...heheh.

  12. Well the rows and partials should bring up a nice debate for the next "Chaos and Bang".

  13. Paul I notice that you keep your head off of the bench, is that to help with your upper back staying in place or just something that you are comfortable with?

  14. Bottom position benching in the rack - Just pause your benches. I think when you get into position for the bottom position you may not be in the same position you are when you actually lower the bar. so just pause the bench a lot in training and you're good to go.

    Shanker - On your points....

    1. Tons and tons and tons of forearm work, bicep work, and forearm stretching. No pressing for 2 months. In that time iron out the pre-hab work. When you come back bench one week, incline the next.

    2. I have the same problem with standing overhead presses. Kills my elbows. Press behind the neck and seated db press however, are good to go.

    3. Good observation. The squat and deadlift always seem to have higher ceilings, even over time, where the bench seems to run up to a point based on bodyweight, and then just kind of hovers from there.

    4. Interesting comment on the dips. People have been trying to find that correlation for a long time. I think it's going to vary wildly from person to person. However I have heard from a ton of guys that moving their weighted dips up paid immediate dividends to the bench.

    Oh and that's Lance Karabel. And he's a big big dude. And strong.

    Head up - Just something I am comfortable with.

  15. Hey Paul
    So do you do any JM press, skullcrusher or any other triceps assistance exercise or do you think they are useless?

  16. Never could get into JM presses. Tried but just didn't like it.

    Did skullies for years but eventually my elbows hated them.

    I don't think that tricep exercises are useless, I just think that almost everyone already does enough tricep work yet they complain they want a bigger bench. There isn't anything magical about doing a bunch of tricep work to move your bench IMO.

  17. Excellent as usual Paul,

    I bench with a narrower grip as well and do compete, it has done wonders for my shoulder health. I will say that I do believe a bigger back overall gives me better stability on the bench even with being raw bencher. I have always gone thumbless with my Incline and OH press and it has worked wonders, I have just begun to do it with my flat bench and it has certainly cured my penchant of letting the bar go to far back on my hand and given me more power on the movement, I guess I was just nervous about using it, but it really does make a difference.

    Thanks for the info


  18. paul, what do you think about working with different bench grips as assistance lifts? and if yes, do you need to go heavy on them?

  19. That's something I'm fond of. I don't think you will WANT to go super heavy on say really WIDE grip benches, but you still need to go "heavy".

  20. Paul,

    "Well, mainly because most guys still have the bar too far back in their hand."

    That sentence made a world of difference for me. I still bench with wrapped thumbs, but now I keep the bar in my palms as opposed to the back of my hand and it's like night and day. Thanks.

  21. How do you feel about the old time upper body strength exercise Floor Press.

    1. I like the floor press, but I see it become a mainstay in some guys routines so much that they quit benching in place of it. Not good.

  22. Paul,

    At what degree do you generally do inclines? I dumbbell incline at 30* usually, but my gyms barbell incline is probably 50-55* it seems like I'd be better off doing more flat barbell benching than assisting with that incline bench.

  23. most fed allow suicide grip???or no..