Should players start with dual spec?

| Tuesday, March 16, 2010









Bri said...

When dual-spec was first going to be introduced, it was only going to be available at level 70. They compromised by making it available at level 40, but left the cost high in order to effectively limit it to established players.

Their thinking is that it will confuse new players. They're probably right, as they have the data to back it up. We, as experienced players, typically feel Blizz is being over-protective of new players, but the recent nerfs to the starting areas and the information that 70% of characters never make it past level 10 seem to indicate otherwise. We'll ignore for the moment how many of that 70% statistic are spambots, as guesstimates vary wildly and only Blizz really knows for certain.

Here, then, is my suggestion for an alternate solution. Rather than making dual-spec available at level 1 (or 10, as you don't have a spec until then), leave it as a 1000g option at level 40, but also create a BoA "Tome of Dual-Spec" available for purchase at any class trainer, purchaseable at level 80 but learnable at level 10. Then, like Northrend flying, established and experienced players can choose to twink their alts with dual-spec right out of gates, along with 4 Frostweave bags and a full set of enchanted heirlooms.

Shintar said...

See, I thought the fact that I learned to heal while not specced for it on my first character actually made me a better healer in the long run, because it was more challenging and much tighter - my heals were smaller and more expensive, my mana regenerated much more slowly etc. - but it was still quite doable. I don't like reinforcing the idea that doing things you're not specced for is oh so hard. I'm also afraid that it will enforce "spec-elitism" from early on and perfectly capable people will be harassed for having the wrong spec in the same way as tanks in blues get crap nowadays because people think that you have to have full epics to tank heroics.

It's also funny that you mention mounts, because I thought of comparing those to dual specs as well and came to the opposite conclusion as you. I remember back on my first character I was late to the "getting a mount" party because I hadn't figured out how to make money yet and was the last among my friends to get my tiger. Ever tried questing in STV with a group of mounted friends while you're the only one who's still walking? Yeah, there's something that will hold a whole group back and will make everyone hate you.

Tiv said...

I don't know. I follow your logic and agree with it to an extent, but I don't think I can agree to the conclusion. I can't help but view dual spec as a luxury. And I'm not sure it really changes a player's group dynamic or aids in their learning. You can't even fill out your primary tree until what, 60? And a lot of abilities that are now core don't come until you are in expansion content. You do start getting class defining abilities at 40, but I'm not convinced that there's really much divergence at that point.

Learning your role in the lower levels, to my mind, isn't about mastering all of your tools or knowing which one is the best for a certain circumstance. For tanks, I think it's about developing awareness of your surroundings and becoming comfortable with the position of leading a group. A healer learns to anticipate how and how _much_ damage comes in to the tank and the group. And how to manage mana...even though individual spells can change in efficiency as you talent up, you can learn things like "overhealing can be bad" no matter your spec.

I just honestly don't see the problem in having the more advanced lessons come later. In fact, I might prefer it--take the priest as an example. You can spec disc or holy to heal but then you're only learning that play style. Is it good to set a player down a specific path that early? I'm not sure. I guess I'm biased, because I leveled my first character as a shadow priest but healed for my groups, and I always felt like that made me much better at my job when I finally went holy because I had already learned how to succeed at a lower power level.

In the end, I guess I do want players to be able to dual and learn those lessons before they hit 80, but I think that point comes much later than 40. I believe the barrier to dual specs is appropriate.

Jen said...

It's this simple: you don't need dual spec at 40. Hell, you don't need dual spec at 80 either, in some cases. I will never dual spec my DPS characters, even though I can afford it; after the feature was introduced, I always dual spec my hybrids because I *want* to play 2 roles.

A new player probably doesn't even know what speccing is all about. Or what a tank and DPS means (I sure didn't until at least level 40). I agree with Blizzard, cheaper and earlier dual spec would be confusing. The idea that you 'need' 1000 gold at level 40 is ridiculous. Dual spec is only a convenience, not a mandatory skill.

Eversor said...

"auto" dual spec is a great idea. It would allow people to learn to play different aspects as they leveled up. It would also allow people to enjoy different aspects of the game, pvp, pve, raiding, whatever. And it is strabgely expensive. I'd have artisan riding on my poor cow if it wasn't for 1k gold dual spec! Curse you blizz....curse you!

jeffo said...

I have a vision...

zoning into a high-level instance. The warrior offers to switch to his secondary spec to tank. He pulls -- he gets completely destroyed.

Oops, turns out that he leveled in his dps spec entirely and hasn't actually put spent any of his secondary talent tree points since level 24.

Stabs said...

It complicates your character fairly significantly especially if one spec plays completely different to another. Going from Boomkin to bear tank would be pretty tricky for a new player.

You can make a lot of solid arguments to support dual spec cost reduction but I think you're really clutching at straws when you start claiming it improves the learning curve for clueless newbies.

Klepsacovic said...

@Bri: My lowbie alts don't need dual spec. I'm experienced enough and have BoAs to compensate.

@Shintar: You do have a point that 'hardmode' healing can be useful training. Wrong spec teaches general concepts while right spec teaches specifics. Perhaps the general concepts are more important.

@Tiv: I have a bit of a tank bias, but I often feel like unless people put on their tank clothes (talents) they are often not thinking as tanks, just DPS who are allowed to pull aggro.

@Jen: Individual talents may be confusing, and that might even be a good thing, but the idea of talents in general shouldn't be.

@Eversor: Leveling isn't know for having much raiding (Hogger doesn't count), but I hadn't even thought of PvP.

@jeffo: Part of my hope is that said warrior had been doing some instance tanking along the way.

@Stabs: In the case of any hybrid they're using significantly different abilities for tanking/healing/DPS. I suppose prot/ret and prot/warriorDPS have overlap, but druids are already shapeshifting to entirely different bars and DPS and healing use entirely different spells.

Hana said...

I think as a new player who doesn't even know what their main spec is, having the option to dual spec off the bat would be confusing.

When I was leveling Hana as my very first character, I was a druid not a balance druid, just a druid. I healed nearly every instance because I could. I viewed the talent trees as tweaks to the basic character build, but figured no matter what the spec, I would be able to perform whatever role I was called upon as a hybrid because that's what hybrids are for.

Most new players probably have a similar outlook. For the life of me I can't remember whether any of the tanks I healed were sword and board. It just never occured to me to check.

But at the same time I healed the vast majority of my instance runs never thinking "I need to or would like to be resto for this." And actually for the early instances, you don't have to be. I healed non-heroics in TBC as balance, I even healed a few in WotLK as balance.

When dual specs become desirable is end-game. Tank can't make it tonight? Done. My moonkin is now a bear.

Raids and heroics require more specific talent specializations, so it's not possible to take a one-size-fits-all approach, but while leveling I think the player needs to figure out what they want to do with their first spec before they start worrying about a second.

SlikRX said...

For hybrids, tank & DPS are close enough at lower levels that it doesn't matter, but if you want to heal? Ugh. Possible, but...

Now, my biggest reason to want dual spec ealy on (and triple spec later) is for the ability to have a PvE and a PvP spec.

Levelling, it would have been nice to pop into a PvP spec to run some BGs, and then go back to levelling. THen, at higher level, the ability to have both a tank and DPS (or whichever paring) and still have a viable PvP would be nice.

Ngita said...

In the first year of wow, we cleared Maraudon with 2 level 44 ret pallies, a 45 hunter, 41 mage and 44 lock. skill has its place, mind you it took 5 hours to do all 3 parts so perhaps perseverance does as well.

I would consider Sunken temple the last zone you can do inappropriate spec and level appropriate gear(non boa,sans epics)

Having said that it can make things easier, I cleared brd as 53 Prot tank with a 51 disc priest, both of us heavily twinked with BOA and we only came a cropper when the priest body pulled the emperors room merely by stepping in the door. That was regarded as content for 60's or close to it back in classic.

But at the same time now, their is growing elitism. Lf1m tank for SM, must be prot. /sigh.

BOA tome of Dual spec? Bring it on, my ancient abandoned Shaman main got a care package through the mail a couple of weeks ago. 2 specs of shoulders, 2 specs of chest, 2 specs of weapons, spell power and haste trinkets. But I cant even send him one gold.:(

Daergel said...

I don't see the point of dual spec at 40 - as has already been mentioned, you don't fill your primary tree until much later, and a lot of veteran players still don't grasp the idea (DKs with 71 points in one tree, anyone?)

1,000 is reasonable, but I think that Blizz should increase the level requirement

Klepsacovic said...

@Hana: Druids will be addressed in an upcoming post.

@SlikRX: Maybe it's not that offspec healing is hard, but that the offspec tanks make it hard.

@Ngita: Groups did tend to stick together through more back then. I miss that. It's even infected me.

@Daergel: Why is filling the primary tree so important?

Rowan Fairgrove said...

You said to Tiv "they are often not thinking as tanks, just DPS who are allowed to pull aggro."

That is an hilarious concept and so very true.

I play prot (pally & warrior) and DK tank with only my bear is dual specced (bear/tree). I wonder what the healer equivalent is. I'm not a very good tree, I'd rather whack things.

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