Chat log from the meeting on 2012-08-21

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[11:01] Second Life: Region found!
[11:01] Second Life: Region found!
[11:02] Second Life: Teleport completed from Lbsa Plaza (128,130,38)
[11:02] Marcus LlewellynMarcus LlewellynI had a friend on OSgrid complain to me about his inventory not working. I asked his sim version... 0.7.3. "Well, that's your problem."
[11:02] Sarah Kline: Hi Taarna
[11:02] Taarna Welles: Howdy Richard
[11:02] Taarna Welles: Heya Sarah
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:02] Marcus Llewellyn: heya, Justin. :)
[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: hello justin, sarah
[11:02] Sarah Kline: HI Justin
[11:02] BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[11:02] Taarna Welles: Hi Justin
[11:04] dan banner: hey everyone
[11:04] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dan
[11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: heya Dan
[11:04] Taarna Welles: @Justin, quick question before the meeting starts.... did you fix the NPC/sound issue?
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: taarna: yes
[11:04] Taarna Welles: mmm ok
[11:04] Taarna Welles: Do I have to change settings?
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: You're using the latest osgrid release?
[11:05] Taarna Welles: yes I do and I tested it today and still got the same issue
[11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Hiya Hiro
[11:05] Sarah Kline: Hi Hiro
[11:06] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Marcus, Sarah, everyone :)
[11:06] Taarna Welles: I shall talk about it with Frank... maybe there is something wrong with the NPC scripts I use
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Justin remember we changed ThreadStackSize = 562144
[11:06] BlueWall Slade: Hi Hiro
[11:06] Hiro Protagonist: Blue :)
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ever since we did that, memory useage has gone down considerably here
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know npc scripts cant change sounds
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza was running for 5 days right now, and just prior to the meeting starting, show stats showed 545mb in use
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: cant say, upgraded last night so only 1 day up
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: using mono-sgen?
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I have never seen Wright Plaza using so little memory, and I am quite positive it started when we changed the threadstacksize
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i hav emore empty (windows) sims that use more
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: taarna: urgh, it's possible I fixed a bug but a different one - I just stpooed another issues in sound module
[11:08] dan banner: i dont think its been up 5 days
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's counter-intuitive
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: good test would be to change back
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: giving threads more memory shouldnt' decrease total memory usage
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya I thought the same thing Justin I will try that for sure
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: well previously it seemed like it was leaking or something
[11:09] Taarna Welles: @Justin, please have a look at it again... it isn't a big issue for now :)
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: it didnt really seem justified the memory increases
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: If it wopuld do you need to get patant :)
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: patent
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: taarna: could you open a mantis to keep track of this issue?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: brb afk a few
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: unless there already is one
[11:10] Taarna Welles: @Justin, I shall write a mantis
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: thankyou
[11:11] Taarna Welles: Is there any news about a default viewer for OSG?
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: any other topics for today?
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: only told nebadon that undo still can bite in linbksets
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: back sorry about that
[11:12] dan banner: justin: the --force switch works well
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: ?? hi dan. whats that doing ?
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ok good
[11:13] dan banner: to remove ghosts rich
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: aha. long time i have seen them
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wait lol. wich gosts. gost avatars, ghost prims ?
[11:14] dan banner: avatars
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: need to fix the underlying issue as to why they appear in the first place, but I don't think that will be soon
[11:14] Hiro Protagonist: why are they suddenly so prevalent?
[11:14] dan banner: i found they are easy to make
[11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: There's been a plague of them at LBSA lately.
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: taarna: you mean apart from those on ?
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: yes on lbsa i see many to. always good to ask what viewer the use.
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: I have no idea
[11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: This is prolly a very silly suggestion, but could it be related to the new more aggressive sening of avatar appearance?
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly the extra checks to prevent race conditions have increase them
[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: Justin that's a great answer ;)
[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: nods
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: aggressive?
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: Ikd viewers and bad networks are for me the biggest problems for ghost i think
[11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: I thoguht I read that baked appearances were being resent every so often for viewer that may have misses it
[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: hmmm
[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: interesting Marcus
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: not by default, and if the switched is flipped it's just the uuids that get sent ever 60 seconds
[11:16] Marcus Llewellyn: It was just the only recent change I could think of that coincided with the ghosts.
[11:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Like I said, prolly silly. heh
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: well you know, it seems rumours get star6ted very easily
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: who's ghosting right from taarna ?
[11:17] Taarna Welles: ??
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah, think you need rebake
[11:18] Sarah Kline: glad someone told me
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: well, did we not get every summer vacation more clouds ?
[11:20] dan banner: rich im referring to disconnected avatars that stay in the sim not cloudy appearance
[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: ok. the look both clouds
[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Is this likely a sim issue or a ROBUST one??
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: sim
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: appears to occur if someone logs out whilst logging in
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: but maybe it also occurs on things like failed teleprots
[11:21] Hiro Protagonist: JustinCC: It's at least remotely possible that in adding a non-default update feature to the code they also added some logic that fails in applying it
[11:21] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: Heya Dahlia. :)
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: very uinlikely. And even if it did, that would have no impact on this issue
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:21] Richardus Raymaker: i get the last time more the presence not inworld.. in singularity. only relog brings things back to life
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: ]hi dahlia
[11:22] Hiro Protagonist: I mean, it's fairly unlikely, but shouldn't be ruled out, well, until its actually ruled out lol
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: forgot the preciese error
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm ruling it out right now
[11:22] Hiro Protagonist: with testing?
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: The aborted logins... does this seem to cause ghosts with every viewer?
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: because I wrote all that code. If you disagree Hiro, feel free to find the bug in the code
[11:23] Hiro Protagonist: well I dont so much assert that it's one way or another, so much as suggest that the facts would seem to indicate such a possibility
[11:23] Hiro Protagonist: that said, if you would direct me to the code in question I'd have a peek at it
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: hi tiffany
[11:24] Tiffany Magic: Hello Richardus... hello all
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Tiffany
[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:25] Sarah Kline: HI Tiff
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: any other toipcs today?
[11:26] Tiffany Magic: I have a question
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I have C# questions but I'll ask them somewhere else. :-)
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: oh.. you made me curious. now you talk about C#
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: what is it Tiffany?
[11:27] Tiffany Magic: Is anyone else having trouble passing items to an avatar on a different region? If we try to through IM or profile, it won't go through.
[11:27] Frank Northmead: Tiffany, I have been successfully sending out items in folder between regions.
[11:27] Sarah Kline: I get it to go through profile
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: the last time i wanted to compile opensim, the xmlrpc.dll where not added to the opensim project. to lazy at that time to do so i use for now the prebuild one. is that a mistake for that version ?
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: I have seen such a thing, but haven't made any attempt to repro it in a meaningful way.
[11:28] Tiffany Magic: Ok, thank you Frank. We haven't been able to since we upgraded.
[11:28] dan banner: its random
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: i been seeing intermittent problems passing innventory
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: Hi Rira
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there any particular config settings to check re: passing items between avatars in different regions?
[11:28] BlueWall Slade: what viewers?
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: not afaik
[11:29] Tiffany Magic: All of them
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: phoenix mainly
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: for me
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: you mean the "no inventory given" or "cant give inventory" ? it happens random but still regulair
[11:29] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn always uses V3 these days, primarily Teapot and Firestorm.
[11:29] Frank Northmead: BlueWall, I normally am using either Zen or Firestorm
[11:29] BlueWall Slade: so V3 based?
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: No
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. That would have been one possible problem.
[11:29] Frank Northmead: for me yes
[11:29] dan banner: it happens in v1
[11:29] dan banner: sometimes
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: i find too much texture coloring problems with v3 viewers
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: i see it soemtimes in singularity. last time a bit more
[11:30] Hiro Protagonist: are the parties on both sending and recieving ends both using http inventory?
[11:30] Hiro Protagonist: or the same inventory type?
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Arielle: You have an ATI GPU?
[11:30] Tiffany Magic: All I know is, we didn't ever have the problem when we were using 7.1... so was curious.
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, how would one even know that or change it?
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: the machine i usual;ly use is nvidia
[11:30] Frank Northmead: Hiro, no way for me to know, just sending out updates to my products to various people.
[11:30] Frank Northmead: all seem to get them.
[11:30] Hiro Protagonist: it's in the viewer config
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: nvm then. :)
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: have seen once in sl3 beta the purple bug. but that where fixt with update.
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: my firestorm has it on by default
[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: i mean sl3 on beta grid. oops
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, which viewers?
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: well I know I had experimented with it in the last imp
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it's part of the regular settings in firestorm
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: i also see inventory loading problems on regions other then the plaza
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: the weird colored prims, is most times a dirty cache and need a clear to fix
[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Is there any sign that these inventory offers have been sent silenty, winding up in Lost and Found? I see that happen with "Take Copy" in world.
[11:32] BlueWall Slade: can't rez inventory in SL unless you wear it first
[11:32] Hiro Protagonist: what LOL
[11:32] Hiro Protagonist: since when?
[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I have inventory problems with either UDP or HTTP
[11:32] BlueWall Slade: that is, if it's pretty far down in your folder
[11:32] BlueWall Slade: a month or two
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: Oh thats a new on eBlue..
[11:32] Hiro Protagonist: thats about broken
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: me too Dahlia
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: tried both ways
[11:33] BlueWall Slade: it takes a long time for it to pull your inventory, and if you try to rez something before it has the info, you can't
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: I had some regions ther were running older code and they didnt have the problem, unfortunately the server they were running on crashed
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: though better with http off
[11:33] BlueWall Slade: wearing it will force it to pull the asset ids, etc. so it can rez it
[11:34] Frank Northmead: I have problems with task inventory not loading in forestorm but loading okay in Zen.
[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: so wearing it's a work around, ok
[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: that makes moar sense :)
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: Frank, you have the caps set ?
[11:34] Frank Northmead: Richardus, where?
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: task inventory loading is not done through caps
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: I havent seen a problem with task inventory
[11:35] Frank Northmead: I assume it is a viewer issue.
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: opensim.ini -> [ClientStack.LindenCaps]
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: ok justin.
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: it's always udp
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: i assume opensim as it doesnt seem a prob at s/l
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: tbh it does work better on standalone
[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: I think my inventory problems showed up when I use using zen viewer
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: curious why the did that as udp from the begin. its so important for speed that you cant do it with tcp ?
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: task inventroies are not as big
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: and the mechanism is different from user inventroy
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: (whats task inventory/?)
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: prim inventory
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: attachments?
[11:38] Frank Northmead: Things in prims Airielle
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: I see people complain about inventory issues every so often. I tell them to make sure they're running a very recent version of OpenSim (we still have people running as old as 0.7.2 on OSGrid!) and a newer viewer. II never see significant inventory issues myself.
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, even hd broken http inventory
[11:38] Frank Northmead: I am always within 24 hours of head.
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: and with a grid running all kinds of opensim versions its very easy to get false positives
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: i have with singularity and the short time i tried sl3 not seen probl;ems to'
[11:39] dan banner: that expalins why boxing something up that wont xfer helps
[11:39] Marcus Llewellyn: Imprudence had HTTP Inventory support, but it was always considered to be an expirimental feature.
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: i suspect it might be more noticeable for us that run older hardware and have slower networks
[11:39] Tiffany Magic: Well... we are running the latest version now.. and the latest versons of viewers... and we have a definate problem with passing inventory across simlines.
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: A5t some point a required update would not be bad idea :)
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: from my experience, http inventory does not work well in imprudence
[11:39] Tiffany Magic: No problem at all if we are on the same sim.
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: has bugs
[11:39] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn agrees with Justin's experience.
[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: it seems to work very well in firestorm
[11:40] Frank Northmead: Tiffany, is it both ways or just from your sim to some other?
[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I've actually had inventory problems that cleared up since I started using firestorm
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: for the last 2-3 months it seems it takes more to be in world then it used to
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: The sooner we can get Imprudence off OSgrid download page, the sooner we can see this sort of thing ebb away, I think.
[11:40] Tiffany Magic: We have tried Imp... Firestorm... Singularity... Zen... and Teacup.
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: it seems to work pretty good in singularity 1.7. with soemtimes a fail
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: i never use Imp
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: Imp is to old for me
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: and no mesh
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Imp's been my main viewer although I'm trying Singularity. It has issues with its grid management feature (doesn't save passwords separately for each grid), and doesn't import mesh objects.
[11:41] Tiffany Magic: All I know is, attachment points held (other than imported items) and we could pass items fine.... in 7.1
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: wich version andrew. 1.6 is not the best one for me
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, 1.7.0
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: under Linux
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: and yes, not seen any sl1 with mesh import
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: as we asll know, the world progressively gets worse
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: aah. linux. ok. different story
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: things start off perfect then always go downhill :)
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Cool VL has mesh upload.
[11:42] dan banner: phoenix has mesh upload i think
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: I beleive it is the only V! UI viewer that does.
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: yes phgoenix have mesh, and borken snapshot todisk :O
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: thought they all did but imp
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, I'm looking for a viewer that could support multiple grids
[11:43] dan banner: coolvl on has mesh upload for the linux/mac versions
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: well, a lot of those viewers may stop suppring opensim soon
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Dolphin already confirmed the stopped opensim
[11:43] BlueWall Slade: Teapot has good support, needs polish
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Dolphin and Exodus have so far. Firestorm will do a OpenSIm fork.
[11:44] BlueWall Slade: I think any development in it will make it back to Firestorm
[11:44] Frank Northmead: Firestorm is best for me at the moment and I expect it to get better aftger Jessica's visit here last week.
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: firestorm our best bet
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: yeah, marcus. but the waiting for it ... :O
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: frank: jessica's visit?
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: yes she came here
[11:44] Frank Northmead: Justin, she dropped in Lbsa for a chat, I can give you the log.
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: it's okay - just nice to hear
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I wish they had some kind of regular open dev meeting or similar but it seems not
[11:45] Frank Northmead: yeah, and their IRC is very low voumne.
[11:45] Frank Northmead: volumne
[11:46] Sarah Kline: they would get besieged with SL griefers probably
[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: well, for now i hope next zen is workable for me
[11:46] Sarah Kline: will we have normal maps and specularity?
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: zen going to have an opensim fork?
[11:46] Sarah Kline: smiles
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. looks to dan. :)
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect it's just too much work for the one person viewer teams
[11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Zen is windows only, which is a bit problematic. And both Zen and Teapot are single dev projects... that tends to make ame a lil nervous in some ways.
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: well, i want firestorm. but you know it can take a whilke before the have fixt my problem
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: teapot is armi's experimental viewer
[11:48] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn nods.
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: and kokua is still going, though I don't know when they will release a version
[11:48] BlueWall Slade: I will be working on Teapot some when I get some time
[11:48] Hiro Protagonist: and he's working fs now
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: nice
[11:48] BlueWall Slade: I think Armin wants to develop opensim features into it then port them to firestorm
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: Kokua's progress is glacial. :/ Nicky Perian releases a beta every so often, but it's not well publicisized.
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I think there would be quite some interesting in a dediated opensimulator poroject, particular if some of the educatio nprojects we hear about get funding
[11:48] BlueWall Slade: he can do that in Teapot
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: kokua has been "vaporware" for ages. Keep hearing its in progress but thats it.
[11:49] Sarah Kline: just one person on it at the moment?
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: couldnt even log i with that one
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Sarah: If anyone except Nicky Perian is active with Kokua, they're being very, very quiet.
[11:49] Sarah Kline: oh marcus covered that sorry
[11:50] Sarah Kline: k
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: An offocial or semi-official OpenSim Viewer team would be AWESOME.
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: hmm about viewers. someone cant login in osgrid. he get dns errors etc. saw it once today myself. a ick on the modem fixt it. something i missed. we tried to use opendns and google dns. that failed to. told him to reset the router. maby that helps
[11:50] Sarah Kline: we could Elect Armin and Blue
[11:50] BlueWall Slade: I am in SL with Firestorm and it rezzes inventory right away
[11:50] Frank Northmead: ?
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: i saw the same on first attempted login today Rira
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: interestingly, sl are doing some work on router issues, etc.
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: Armin is still the one that know most about opensim viewers :)
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, some of this stuff might even stem from that kind of thing
[11:51] Frank Northmead: Well, I hope Firestorm becomes the official OS viewer
[11:51] BlueWall Slade: my time is pretty limited, but I want to get our logins, profiles, etc. support
[11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: I have one of the older routers LL says can have issues with SL. In my case, the issues are avoided by usuing a third party firmware. But that's not something your average user will be doing.
[11:51] BlueWall Slade: I don't expect to be a top notch viewer dev, lol
[11:51] dan banner: i bumped the number of available sockets in my router all the way up
[11:52] Sarah Kline: well Jesicca said armin would need help on opensim FS
[11:52] dan banner: seems to work fine
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: :DD <- hint
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: Thats problem, there never enough devs
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: dd-wrt has issues for me
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: there never are enough devs :)
[11:52] Tiffany Magic: Well, I know my issues are probably small and petty, compared to the big things you are working on. But, attachment points holding, passing inventory to others, and boats crossing simlines are the three things our grid users are asking about. So, I brought them here.
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: Third party firmware isn't something you should do lightly. They're awesome, but you really NEED to read ALL documentation you can get your hands on first. Be sure you can unbrick your router, etc.
[11:53] BlueWall Slade: we dont' ahve enough contribution back from the user-base
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: maybe we need a Viewer dev courses
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i hate simborders. i see it in sl again. i preffer better megaregion support
[11:53] Frank Northmead: Tiffany, I am betting on Bullet sim getting vehicles crossing sim lines. but not tomorrow.
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: crossing simlines is v complicated, though I know it's something somebody hit the other tday
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: about megaregins. does someone have more info/test regions about whats the possble max size ?
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: I don't know what's going on with inventory passing, I thought that was working
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: should go back and look in the old code to see what is different
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: attachment poitns holding - that refers to att poitns being retained for objects placed on the ground?
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: it does Justin but there are some issues sometimes
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: the thing is, the difference from the old code will prioabblyi be enormous
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: If many of us have seen the inventory passing issue, a mantis might be a good idea.
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think it's worth going back, but that's just my opinion
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: If I have time, I'll do some tests on passing inventory between regions.
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: it coul;d be a grid problem rather then a opensim one
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes, that's always a good poitn to gather information
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: probably right
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: It might be ok if regions in same instance.
[11:54] Tiffany Magic: Justin: Yes. Place them on the ground and the attachment points are lost.
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: I think we did remoting between the regins back then too
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: yes, aware of this issue. Unforutnately not straightforward to fix
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewalL: remoting?
[11:55] BlueWall Slade: maybe that is where it was broken, when we changed that
[11:55] BlueWall Slade: yes
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if ti works sometimes then I suspect it's not a code issue tbh
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: but I dont# really know
[11:55] Tiffany Magic: Avination has the solution.... for attachment points and for vehicles crossing simlines.
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't say it was impossible
[11:56] BlueWall Slade: they will probably contribute that back at some point
[11:56] dan banner: i find the problem passing inventory seems to happen more often sending to a regin in a simulator that usually isnt located on a very fast or low latency connection
[11:56] Sarah Kline: They have paid employees
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: ohh, sorry if i make a detour. just soem idea that came in mind. is the nntp protocol not usable for groups in some way ?
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: no
[11:56] BlueWall Slade: and, even faster if we start implementing it
[11:56] BlueWall Slade: :)
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yes indeed
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: i thiink so too Dan
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: question is why it has to fail
[11:56] BlueWall Slade: ohh
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: why all the console slow request messages
[11:57] dan banner: communication arielles
[11:57] BlueWall Slade: there was a bug in the dialog box chat found thisd weekend
[11:57] dan banner: -s
[11:57] Frank Northmead: yes, i am seeing LOTS of slow handings
[11:57] BlueWall Slade: and, we found a fix for it
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: i see them sometimes
[11:57] Frank Northmead: yes, dialog box works correctly now.
[11:57] BlueWall Slade: then Melanie asked to check on Avn to see if it was fixed there
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: but when i see them it seems to faail a lot
[11:57] BlueWall Slade: and it was the same fix
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: s there a timeout?
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: those slow requests messages are for ... slow requests. Which may or may not indicate a problem
[11:58] BlueWall Slade: so, it might be a good practice to send people to Avn to check if the fix is there and just ask Melanie to port it back
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: there are various timeouts in different bits of the code
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: ok Justin
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: what causes fails?
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: tack them togheter and you get a slow request :O
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I don't know.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: i have seen sometimes slow request when you start a new fresh opensim install. with warp3d map
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: what about bringing in some of Ubits physics fixes to opensim core?
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: if ubit creates patches containing single easily understood fixes then we are happy to look at them
[12:00] BlueWall Slade: I think he is under NDA to Avn now
[12:00] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn doesn't use Warp3D for the map. It eats a stupid amount of memory.
[12:00] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          1507483: 2012-08-20 15:57:28 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: Justin, its been 8 months since he put out patches that make the physics much better here
[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: in what way, not see much problem with windows :O you use loinux marcus ?
[12:01] BlueWall Slade: what we should have done at that point is make a branch with all his patches for testing
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm running on Linux, yes, so Warp3D may simply not play well with Mono.
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: He is Blue but those patches he did before that time
[12:01] VivK Lowlag: why patch ode whenbullet is coming?
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: they are publically available
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: Good question, Viv. :)
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: who knows how long before bullet even to the level ode is now?
[12:02] BlueWall Slade: He said that most of the patches were required at once because of interdependant issues
[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: Having two working options would be a good thing in my estimation
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: i think bullet takes some months more maby next year before it works good ... ? at least with nebs car oits going terrible wrong
[12:02] VivK Lowlag: where's the documentation for the fixes then
[12:02] Frank Northmead: bullet is a little ways off, but it is being actrively worked on.
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: i run nebs car with a passenger and no rubberbanding or region crashing
[12:03] dan banner: arielle: i think the key here is "single easily understood fixes"
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: If you want an simulator that makes massive untested changes, use Aurora. ;)
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: a key to getting patches in is a willingness to co-operate with core devs
[12:03] Hiro Protagonist: lol
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: auroora is not compatible
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: what i have seen from bullet, looks very good
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: if someone doesn't response to requests to do things in a certain way then there are a million other things to spend scarce time on
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: nods
[12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: My point is that there is good reason OpenSim core insists in things being done a certain way. Contributors have to be willing to follow the rules.
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: just a shame to let that code slip by
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: it fixes opensim for vehicle to a great degree
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, yeah. I'd still like to be able to build one of the test programs for Warp3D as I'd like to fix that apparent "off by one" issue in maptil generation.
[12:06] Dahlia Trimble: shame to let ubit pass by too
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: yes it was
[12:06] VivK Lowlag: come up with the documentation of the single fixes then it might could get implememnted
[12:06] Hiro Protagonist: well what's done is done now
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: does mel put out documentation for her fixes?
[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: lamenting the loss of an opportunity shouldnt get in the way of pursuing others
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not documentation, it's having single fixes that can be understood in order to bulid onfideence
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, yeah. Aurora looked interesting but has its own set of issues
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: if various single fixes prove good then you can stgart to trust someone more
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: But you can't just accept it a huge wodge of code with comments like (this breaks, oh well - I paraphrase) from someone with no previous contirbuteion trakc record
[12:08] Hiro Protagonist: I dont really get why there was a 'trust' issue there in the first place, but as I said
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: :)
[12:08] Hiro Protagonist: shooting it out now isnt especially productive
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: heh yes i read through some of it this oning
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: morning
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: Aurora is a little too willing to add functionality without taking the time to test it well or consider it's design. There's bugs from 0.6.9 in it that have never been fixed. Things like our NPC functionality is much better designed and feature complete.
[12:09] Hiro Protagonist: yeah, I for one have about zsero interest in aurora
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I asked Ubit to do single fixes but he would not
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, that is a big problem. No point adding lots of "cool new stuff" if its all sitting on top of a shaky foundation
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: Amen.
[12:09] Sarah Kline: agree
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: Ya I do not think Ubit had any interest in being part of core opensimulator
[12:10] Hiro Protagonist: Justin, I know that you know that sometimes things require fixes that are not simple, staged applications of minor changes
[12:10] Hiro Protagonist: any systemic problem, for instance
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, not long ago, they had problems with unsanitized SQL queries. I don't like how they fixed that issue.
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: oh he did from what he told me
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit is working on patches at Avination now though
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: no, there are always single things you can do
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: it's about building confidence
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: so eventually some of his work will probably trickly back into core anyway
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I already fix 1000s of shitty bugs, I'm not willing to bring in more willy-nilly
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: They do things like detach all attachments before a TP. It does speed up TPs... but most of the time many of your attachments never arrive.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, :-)
[12:11] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :) *waves*
[12:11] Sarah Kline: after they have been tested on avination )
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: well the fact that his patches are being used in avination and to be hoped they trickle here should be the confidence you need
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Take care, Dahlia. :)
[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: its already hard to epxlain a bug right. so i dont say anything about makeing patches. write clear code not easy.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I still have to file a mantis
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: OS generates red text on shutdown.
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I hav eto go and do some work
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks later
[12:12] dan banner: bye justin
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, the problem is Ubit really wants nothing to do with core and how we work
[12:12] Sarah Kline: Bye Justin
[12:12] Frank Northmead: bye Juston, thank you for coming.
[12:12] Marcus Llewellyn: Later, Justin :)
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: ok tc Justin
[12:12] Hiro Protagonist: tc Justin, didnt mean to get you all riled up man
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: cya, justin
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: he is unwilling to make patches, and no one else really has time to dig through Aurora to pull out what may or may not be his work
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: meh, I think I get riled too easily nowadays
[12:12] Taarna Welles: Bye Justing
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I need to practice some zen :)
[12:13] Richardus Raymaker: Sometimes it would be nicer if the mantis did have a bit more supsections. like NPC, Megaregion, etc. if people dont use rigth words in the header i think its hard to find soemthing back
[12:13] Tiffany Magic: Bye Justin
[12:13] Hiro Protagonist: :)
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: not aurora patches Neb
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: opensim ones
[12:13] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: he has not made any patches
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno what you mean
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: and thats the whole point
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: he refuses to make patches
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: ubit did make some large patches and we had some back and forth but it fizzled out
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: on the things I've already discussed
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:13] Sarah Kline: Ubit was forking opensim after that animation thing last Nov
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: ok i will drop it :)
[12:13] Blue Guy Left Foot: Script running
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not going to take in huge patches unless I trust the person or I can understand what the changes area
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: are
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: from the testing I did with his stuff
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it broke as much as it fixed
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: every patch does that i thought :)
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Head of Particle Lab here in osgrid? Cool.
[12:14] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves hello
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I hope it's more twk steps back and three forward but anyway
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: back
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: er two
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: :)
[12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: see you later folks
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: waves
[12:15] Sarah Kline: byes
[12:15] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 JCC... that sort of caution is why OpenSim earns trust. When you don't vet patches you wind up with things like the Emerald Viewer... a textbook example of how NOT to to an open source project.
[12:15] Wordfromthe Wise: lol
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: 2 back, 3 forward is still better
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: need to get you clothes Justinm'
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