generating force

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cloudz, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah yeah. I'm with you.

    Rotation on different planes.

    Hula Hoop is rotation on the x and z axes, turning (the kind of rotation we've been yammering on about) is rotation on the y axis.

    So... what's this movement of the waist you're talking about?

    Just stick blades on it, he'll be fine ;)

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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Actually hip rotation and rotation of the upper body is not the primary power component in most techniques. There are a few techniques techniques that take advantage of this as one of the primary power components such as the boxing hook punch, shovel hook/underhook, and power slaps. Swings (e.g. haymakers) also, but they tend to be telegraphed.

    Hip rotation and upper body rotation can add about 20% of the power to boxing crosses and uppercuts, IMHO.

    There are plenty of techniques that don't use the rotation for much power. In these cases, the rotation, if any, is primarily to align the body for attack.

    I got a surprise personally about this because one of the grandmasters (in Tum Pai) who taught me most about power generation methods corrected me last year. I was sure he was generating power on an elbow strike using double-hip and remembering him teaching me about pivot point years ago. However, last year, for the elbow strike, he told me he would rotate to align the body and then strike straight through the target. In other words, no power generation in the technique from the initial rotation, but instead all from alignment and counter rotation (going the other way around). Almost exactly like the elbow strike in this previously referenced video:

    [ame=""]Master Chen Yu - Tui Shou Applications / ÐœÐ°ÑÑ‚ÐµÑ€ Ð§ÑÐ½ÑŒ Ð®Ð¹ - Ð¢ÑƒÐ¹ÑˆÐ¾Ñƒ - YouTube[/ame]

    What I'm saying is the same mechanics used from the reverse side so as not to make them as visible or obvious. This allows the alignment to be stronger from the start of the strike rather than having to move into alignment during the strike.

    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'd say it helped, especially on the 6" punch. It allowed him to make it look more as if he was starting in a neutral stance, because his big wind-up was far less obvious than if his feet had been square-on to the guy being punched. It also allowed him to fully engage the rear leg to drive the fist forward.
  5. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Yup. And as you correctly surmised this is not taught as basic power generation for wing chun.

    With the gwan though it's up to about 12 feet long and you use it from a completely oblique stance. When you do the biu gwan (thrusting pole) which is kind of like sliding a pool cue, you have to rotate the hip. When you add that on the existing power generation already present and you've been training with the gwan it can add quite a whallop with very little withdrawal of the hand when done correctly.

    You can do that from tsui ma too though. In fact it's where you're taught to drive from the back leg, not from the jin choi. What it really did was allow him to get lazy (compared to tsui ma) and tip his weight forward on to the front leg.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Is there a back leg in that stance?

    I was also talking about appearance - if you stand with your feet square and your body at an oblique angle, it looks like you're winding-up to do something. If you stand in the exact same position, but with your body square and your feet oblique, it doesn't half as much.
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    It's the one all of your weight is on.
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    When I googled it, I just got pictures of the rickets-knock-knee stance (the one at the beginning of the form everyone knows), which is square-on.

    Is that not it? Or was your answer kind of a "well, there isn't, but effectively the one with the weight on it is acting like a rear leg"?
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    It's like fighting of the back leg in Muay Thai, as shown by Shogun below, but a bit lower down and with the front toes turned in to be at least parallel with the back foot. And as with everything, except the ma bu in the luk dim boon gwan, it's a variant of Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You mean this one?

    Sorry man, Chinese means nothing to me.

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  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Yes, except Sijo is sitting higher up due to muscle weakness.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Cool, gotcha.

    I posted that one because none of the other images showed people with their feet parallel, even though they had more of a bend in the rear leg. I do recognise that from the 'chunners I've known.
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What I mean is primarily the hip motion on the z axes (forward and back), but in most cases there are components of hip motion on the x axis that contributes because the feet are not squared to the target.

    So if I were to describe leading with the waist with a boxing cross punch, it would be similar to this:

    1) Open the hip (this is like the first part of the double hip, or kind of a wind up).
    2) Take your punching step (could be small, even just inches)
    3) Lead with the waist (seen as hips moving forward)
    4) Start the rotation of the hips and shoulders together (but the hips rotate faster and over a smaller distance), keep the elbow on front of the hip.

    3-4+) 3 and 4 happen very quickly that they are almost together. At the point there is a connection with the elbow then the punch is started.

    5) As the cross reaches the target, again lead with the waist by moving the hips back. This is the final "sinking" that completes the weight shift towards the target. It also takes advantage of leaning power.

    If you look at the two places you lead with the waist. The first is hips forward to create torque that helps activate the rotational power that follows from rotation of the hips. The second is at the end of the punch, to bring the hips away, creating torque in the opposite direction to activate the sinking power (a.k.a. leaning power or downward power).

    This is all in my opinion. The thing is that all this is done with small spirals and not linear directions. Also I left out other components of the power generation for simplicity.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Any way you move your pelvis will be rotating around the sacrum, in its role as a fulcrum. That hula-hoop action is good for power generation in some throws. There is no linear motion in joints - to move part of your body in a linear fashion requires several arcs moving in concert. Rotation is all we've got.

    You've still lost me with this waist business though. I don't know of any way you can produce torque with the waist without involving shoulders or hips. The muscles of the waist provide stability and structure, but if the pelvis and shoulders remain stationary, so does the waist.

    Except for this:

    [ame=""]How to do a belly roll / belly wave - YouTube[/ame]
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That is pretty much what I'm talking about except with the timing/connection with lower and upper body movement.

    Well now, if I wasn't already, I'm going to get laughed out of the Internal Martial Arts forum. Thanks a lot :mad: :cry:

    By the way, a "secret" is to look at what is happening at the spine. You might see something familiar along the line of compression and expansion... just saying.


    Just to recap where I'm coming from.

    1) For rotational power generation (using proper pivot points of course), the opening and closing of the hips (e.g. double-hip movement) adds significant power. You need opposing forces to create torque (twisting power) and the double-hip does this. In addition, there must be a connection so that the elbows do not go behind the hips.

    2) You can add more power by leading with the waist, which is more often visibly seen by rocking the hips forward and back. Forward for upward power, back for downward power. Although, someone said this has nothing to do with breathing in this thread I think, I learned this type of movement as part of breathing exercises (e.g. leading with the breath). But I can see how they can be unrelated.

    I believe that leading with the waist is basically the major component for Dantien driven movement.

    I also believe in hard style training, this is generally referred to as "hips forward" but the "hips back" part I think is often neglected in discussions.

    3) You can lead with the waist without hip rotation (turning) and it still adds power. Such as when you do a double palm strike.

    4) Yes, I believe the leading with the waist can be developed with belly rolls, as long as you engage the spine (e.g. muscles on the back and anterior of the shoulder) with the belly rolls.

    Besides belly rolls, a more traditional Japanese training for this is found in Aikido as shown by the rowing and related exercises:

    [ame=""]Torifune Furitama Morihei Ueshiba - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Are you just talking about tightening the core muscles around the waist? That feels as if the spine is bulging, but it is just the muscles contracting. The thoracic vertebrae can expand with breathing techniques, but not the lumbar vertebrae. Changing the relative angle of the pelvis and rib cage is the only thing that can do that.

    Also, a lot of the IMA guys I've seen have had pretty big guts. Even if they were in arctic expedition wear, you could still see if they were doing belly rolls.

    I still have no idea what you mean by "leading with the waist", and I have to admit it is a little frustrating for the conversation for you to persist with your erroneous definition of "torque"...

    EDIT: Wait, when you say "leading with the waist", you're just talking about the angle of the pelvis? What's that got to do with the waist?

    Rather than secrets, it sounds like you're talking about stuff any aerobics instructor who took a Pilates seminar knows :confused:

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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think you are confusing application with the way to develop the structure. Belly roll is a way to develop the structure. The actual mechanics used in application is a much smaller, more relaxed, and faster circle.

    I don't see how my definition of torque is erroneous. All the movements are around pivot points. When leading with the waist, I use mainly a pivot point that goes horizontally across the front of the chest.

    Leading with the waist means that the waist is the first thing that moves towards the target and the hips follow. It also means the waist is the first thing to move away from the target and the hips follow.

    Going back to this video. At 57 seconds when he does the double palm strikes, look at the shoulders, the waist, and the hips... what do you see move first towards the target between these three? And when direction is changed at the end, what moves away from the target first?


    Hint: The shoulder rising up is key to "seeing" the mechanics.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I got the impression you were referring to torque as elastic potential energy created by counter-rotation. Which is caused by torque, but as I said before, any rotation is a product of torque.

    He is changing the angle of his pelvis, that is what makes his stomach move forward and back.

    As I've come to understand throughout the course of this thread, that is the opening and closing of the qua/kua - using pelvic rotation to stretch the groin and recruit more elastic potential energy.
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You are so close to what I'm saying. Just add in the pivot point across the front of the chest. The waist and hips are below this pivot point and the shoulders are above the pivot point. The body rotates around this pivot point.

    Try to bring the groin forward and you should find that the pivot point is at the waist. This is basically pelvic rotation, correct?

    Instead, move the groin forward and at the same time roll the shoulders back and up. You should feel a slight stretch across the chest. Now you should also naturally be compelled to breath with these movements in a trained manner. And lastly, you should see that the waist moved forward slightly before the hips/pelvis moved because the pivot point is not at the waist, but higher up across the chest.

    The hips/pelvis follows the waist, hence... lead with the waist.

    I hope this works for you.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Nope, sorry.

    The lower thoracic/upper lumbar vertebrae (depending on spinal flexibility) act together as a series of pivots to allow the pelvis to tilt forward. I see what you mean about the bottom of the sternum being where the movement stops, but I'm not sure why you would call it a pivot. It's just the rib cage preventing that kind of soft folding.

    I get that the core muscles are very much involved, but I don't know why you would call that "leading with the waist", and that term is still pretty much meaningless to me I'm afraid.

    Are you talking about the core muscles moving the spine?

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