Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic



The paper, "Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability," by J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario and Arthur R. Jensen of the University of California at Berkeley, appeared with a positive commentary by Linda Gottfredson of the University of Delaware, three critical ones (by Robert Sternberg of Yale University, Richard Nisbett of the University of Michigan, and Lisa Suzuki & Joshua Aronson of New York University), and the authors' reply.

"Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause," write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001.

"Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even after matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they cannot be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect. That's why Jensen and I looked at the genetic hypothesis in detail. We examined 10 categories of evidence."


  2. Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.

  3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

  4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

  5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

  6. Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.

  7. IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.

  8. Race Differences in Other "Life-History" Traits. East Asians and Blacks consistently fall at two ends of a continuum with Whites intermediate on 60 measures of maturation, personality, reproduction, and social organization. For example, Black children sit, crawl, walk, and put on their clothes earlier than Whites or East Asians.

  9. Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes.

  10. Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict.

In their article, Rushton and Jensen also address some of the policy issues that stem from their conclusions. Their main recommendation is that people be treated as individuals, not as members of groups. They emphasized that their paper pertains only to average differences. They also called for the need to accurately inform the public about the true nature of individual and group differences, genetics and evolutionary biology.

Rushton and Jensen are well-known for research on racial differences in intelligence. Jensen hypothesized a genetic basis for Black-White IQ differences in his 1969 Harvard Educational Review article. His later books Bias in Mental Tests (1980) and The g Factor (1998), as well as Rushton's (1995) Race, Evolution, and Behavior, show that tests are not biased against English speaking minorities and that Black-White-East Asian differences in brain size and IQ belong in an evolutionary framework.

Please note: This press release is from 2005 and the calculations that were carried out have since been corrected. This news story does not represent the views of AZoNetwork Ltd. or the News-Medical editorial team.

Journal reference:

Rushton, J P & Jensen, A R. (2005) Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability. A PDF can be downloaded here: https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf


  1. Black Supremacist Black Supremacist United States says:




    • looncraz looncraz United States says:

      Chimpanzees have considerably better working memory than humans.  But we out-compete them hands-down because we are more fluid in our reasoning and logic.

      As whites are to blacks, and Asians to whites.

      The loss of working memory requires more reasoning skills, which increases intelligence.

      I watched a documentary a few years ago about an ape that demonstrated extraordinary memory abilities and could remember patterns thirty or forty times better and faster than humans... the documentary studied the behavior of young apes vs children and found that children would explore the possible solutions and apes would simply - and exclusively - go for the most obvious one.  Apes would get frustrated that their one solution didn't work and try the same one over and over.  Human children immediately reasoned that they needed to find another way in - hence a survival advantage.

      • Elise Harris Elise Harris United States says:

        Guess who out-performs EVERYONE on measures of fluid intelligence? People on the autistic spectrum. Wanna guess what the trade-off is?

        Point is, IQ and fluid intelligence isn't everything.

      • Hamsa Rosenberg Hamsa Rosenberg United States says:

        I was an anthropology major for awhile, and studied primates in depth.  One thing I remember is when they tested chimps against human children, the chimps developed much faster.  Much of the testing was shapes/holes/problem solving with objects...  The chimps out performed the humans...up until about age 6 - when the human children caught up, and continued to develop, while the chimps had reached their max.  Then I just read the same in this article.  Blacks developed faster than asians/whites (sit, crawl,putting on clothes).  Because of this it is not obvious in the beginning that they have a deficiency.  And by 6 they know enough,are in a coddling affirmative action school, and move right through the system (working memory). Second point, you are right that a lack of working memory skills does lead to innovation...like language and math.  When you don't remember stuff as well, you have to write it down, which leads to a whole slew of innovations. Also, on anderson Cooper he visited a gorilla fora segment, and the gorilla was symbolically/mathematically more advanced than any human.  Besides the basic sign language, the gorilla tried to communicate with flash card symbols, but none of the humans knew what they meant.  Just interesting.

      • Curtis Lamont Curtis Lamont United States says:

        White people are a CURSE from God.  When Gahazi lies to the prophet Elisha, Gahazi was cursed with the desease Naaman had.  Gahazi was cursed with leprocy and his skin turned white as snow.  His descndance were cursed for ever.  To educate yourself just google the name “Gahazi”.  This is no secrete.  Because of this curse, Gahazi blamed Naaman.  This is why white people has a discourse with people of color.  Because of Gahazi curse, he moved to a cooler climate where the sun was not as hot.  This is where Europeans came from.  This hatred of “people of color” will be with white skin people forever.

    • Bob Murdoch Bob Murdoch Canada says:

      I am a white guy born with an IQ in the upper 5 percentiles meaning that my mind works quicker and more organized than 97% of the people I meet.
      One of the few people I have met that impressed me mentally was Malcolm X. Some of the ones that impressed me the least were CEO's of major companies and politicians who control our daily lives. The latter two all white by the way.
      Another person who impressed me greatly was someone who was counted out as mentally deficient but through hard work and determination became a very good lawyer. He may not be the fastest thinker but he is very thorough, makes no mistakes and catches things I have missed.
      From what I have read on this subject I can not conclude from my own reasoning that IQ is stratified so clearly across ethnic lines as to make a significant difference. I will say this how ever that success in life has more to do with attitude, perspiration and persistence than skin colour

      • Joseph Stern Joseph Stern United States says:

        A person in the upper 5th percentile by definition scores at least as high as (100 - 5)% = 95% of the sampled population; not 97%. This is more typically referred to as the "95th percentile", rather than the "upper 5th percentile". Also: should someone in the 95th IQ percentile not understand the difference between one data point (Malcolm X) and a data set of statistically significant size? Just a thought. Cheers.

        • Stefan van Westing Stefan van Westing Netherlands says:






          • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

            He says in -


      • Elise Harris Elise Harris United States says:

        How's that high IQ working for you in life?

      • Stephen Pollington Stephen Pollington United States says:

        Anecdotal, ideologically possessed, far-leftist (postmodernist), equal outcome, utopian garbage...

      • Frank from Iowa Frank from Iowa United States says:

        For such a brilliant guy you seem to have no understanding of statistics. Your very few personal observations have no statistical significance at all.

    • Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:

      Your entire spiel is irrelevant. The Intelligence quotient is not a measure of education it is a measure of intelligence.

      People from poor uneducated backgrounds can and do still achieve exceptionally high scores. As long as they can read above a fourth grade level then they can do the IQ test.

      The information you have presented here is completely redundant to the issue at hand.

      • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

        You clearly have never taken a IQ test If you had you would know that No if you don't have a certain level of education the IQ test would say your very dumb. You actually require a broad range of mental gifts and education. This is why autistic children do very very very freakishly well on certain parts of IQ tests but fail poorly on others They simple cannot process the information properly.
        If may humble you to note that Einstein was not particularly bright he actually failed Geometry.
        The list of black inventions is also puzzling as this also has no merit. stupid people invent great things. Like the excuses for white superiority in intellectual thinking for instance.

    • Kaitlyn Downing Kaitlyn Downing United States says:

      Black Supremacist makes some very valid points, and should definitely be considered regarding American IQ test scores broken down by race. However, what fascinates me is the IQ difference at the international level, which removes the issues (I assume) he discusses.  None of those issues are applicable, and while one can make a case for colonization keeping African IQs lower, it doesn't explain Asian IQs superiority.  In other words, since most of the world was colonized by whites, one would assume the results would favor them. However, this is not the case. So, other factors than environment must be considered.

      On another note: evolution is a fact. The method of evolution (how we evolved) is what is being debated as a theory.  Darwin proposed Natural Selection, while the newer theories look at short bursts of evolutionary change, sometimes over shorter periods of time, IN ADDITION TO Natural Selection.  The fact that humans (and all species) evolved from less complex species is not up for debate. It's not only been observed in the natural world, but recreated in a lab, and if that isn't enough, the extensive fossil record of human skeletons showing each step of our evolution from primates.  Stephen Jay Gould (the Stephen Hawking of evolutionary biology) wrote an excellent, clear, easy to understand article explaining the concept called, "Evolution as Fact and Theory". In this article, he clearly explains the difference and where the confusion lies for some people.  Frankly, ninth grade biology should cover this, but...

    • Terri Skidmore Terri Skidmore United States says:

      What a bunch of PC BS.  You just keep trying to find junk to convince yourself but the real world knows better.  Just like we know that young black males (approx. 3% of our population) commit well over 1/2 of all violent crime in this country.  That makes them our number one terrorist threat and who should be avoided at all costs.

    • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

      1.) Brain size does not correlate to intelligence the number of neurons or fold in the brain matter does though.
      2.) Horses have larger brains than humans as do Whales dolphins and several other animals.
      3.) Neanderthals actually had larger brains than modern humans.
      4.) Black people actually tend to have larger brains as brains and head size are generally correlated to body size and on average black are bigger than whites.
      5.) discussions of race are moot because of the complex and intricate level of multi racial blending that has gone on for over 7 thousand years.
      6.) Need more lets look at milk yes milk white people and black people Europe and Africa can drink milk. It's coming I know your looking for the point. The point is genetics the trait to be able to digest milk is only about a few hundred years old in humans. That means we have been so inbred that we have shared this milk digesting gene thought more than half the worlds population. However there are still a lot of Asian people who cannot digest milk as all In China Singapore Thailand etc.
      7.) There actually more genetic difference between boy and girl than between a black and white person the difference is about 2% of DNA. That is a Max not a minimum which means that all the variations of persons occur within that 2% margin.
      8.) The population of America has blacks at about 12% They might be as high as 20% however thanks to planned parent hood there is a lot of dead black babies.
      9.)There actually not enough data yet on brains and sizes. This is largely because it is expensive to do this. The large selection of data on brain sizes is actually skull sizes and has nothing to do with weight or size both of which are actually more important again based on folds in the brain and number of active neurons.

      • Michael Stewart Michael Stewart United States says:

        Almost everything in this post is either incorrect or irrelevant. Ancestral groups are easily identified genetically, for example. Asian, European, and African brains can be reliably differentiated by examining the surface configuration. My genome is more like Mozart's or Newton's than it is like an East Asian's or African's according to any reasonable measure, but I am not a Mozart or a Newton. Consider the magnitude of the genetic differences between a human and a chimpanzee.

      • Stephen Pollington Stephen Pollington United States says:

        5.) discussions of race are moot because of the complex and intricate level of multi-racial blending that has gone on for over 7 thousand years.
        If we look at many Muslim countries we see that average IQs are lower than European and Asian countries because of their culturally accepted practice in-breeding. So as it pertains to the race-IQ relationship, discussion of race is mandatory because there has been far more isolation between the races than interbreeding. Why would even you suggest that most of the world has interbred during the last 7 thousand years anyway? Thats ludicrous.

    • johnny caldwell johnny caldwell United States says:

      They did a similar test in Chimps who also were shown to have the same working memory superiority. Please don't confuse this as a way for blacks to be more functionally intelligent. It amazes me that the more neanderthal dna a race has, the more intelligent they become. Asians and white are close with Asians coming in several points higher. Asians are shown to have had 2 large interbreeding with neanderthals where whites have only had 1. Africans have 0% neanderthal DNA and are quite a bit less intelligent than any other race. If you're theories of Africans low scoring to just be a problem with a test were true, you wouldn't see the poor performance of blacks in most academic areas like you see now.

    • BS!
      Henry Stoneking Henry Stoneking United States says:

      To state that money (ed spending)will increase brain size will eliminate any possibility of your other arguments making any sense.  I think I can move on...Larger brains have more neurons by the way.  There is no way that Asians have anywhere near the brain size as whites, just look at their heads for crying out loud.

    • David Miller David Miller United States says:

      IQ is part Genetic and part random. The genetic part is 45 % hereditary and 55%  toward the mean. Of your race

    • Amante Forenza Amante Forenza United States says:

      You are only addressing cultural and social issues. These studies are not just based on the United States. You’re reasoning is a idiotic as a Christian Fundamentlist staring that the earth is flat because the Bible says so. It does nobody any good to deny science and facts. There are clear talents for all races. Stating that they are all the same in whatever capacity, is false and ignorant.

  2. Black Supremacist Black Supremacist   says:





    • jon jon United States says:

      I'm just going to try and make this as simple as possible. Why is it that all over the world blacks live a poor quality of life. Whenever I see feed the children commercials I don't see white people. If you want to blame white people for slaving black people I have this to say, maybe if you weren't so stupid we wouldn't have been able to slave you in the first place. It's always the white man holding you back. How about you stop acting like children and take responsibility for your stupidity.

      • Adrian Stewart Adrian Stewart United States says:

        Please take responsibility for your own ignorance.

        • Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:


        • Babak Navabi Babak Navabi Saudi Arabia says:


          • Michael Stewart Michael Stewart United States says:


            • jhon jacson jhon jacson Canada says:


          • Henry Stoneking Henry Stoneking United States says:


        • Steve Konrad Steve Konrad United States says:


      • Xzanaith B Xzanaith B United States says:

        If they hadn't sold their unwanted members of the tribe and those they kidnaped to us they wouldn't have anyone to blame now would they? I guess they would have to make up some more anti White propaganda.

    • Stefan van Westing Stefan van Westing Netherlands says:


      I would like to know what those specific questions were, since black students always get simplified tests in school and whites are simply measured with a higher standard.

      The "black" questions

      1 is the earth a sphere ... or a cube shape ?

      2 If john has 8 skittles, and gives 4 skittles to a friend, how many skittles does john still have left ?

      3 what animal has a green color, a Frog, or a Shark ?

      etc. etc. etc.

      the "white" questions were probably more to the grade of rocket science and advanced physics.

      Those "white" questions were probably to the likes of nuclear fusion/fission, complex mathematics, chemical components etc.

      just like school tests are simplified to make blacks pass the test ... this does not mean blacks are as competent as ... or more competent than whites since their study material tends to be several grades below the "white" study material.

      • Kissy Nonya Kissy Nonya United States says:

        John still has 8 skittles. He stole them back from the friend!!

        But seriously I have to wonder as others have before me, why black countries have always been so bad off and starving regardless of the fact they have abundant natural resources. I mean, if you watch a National Geographic segment you can see dinner run right by them...pathetic, actually,

        Anyone else notice also that blacks generally are very quick to anger, are obnoxious, etc? Even black adopted children seem different and extra loud. Also, is it possible that the claim black serial killers are not abundant because the "white man" is the crazy one actually wrong and the truth is blacks just have no concept of the patience and premeditation it takes to carry out those heinous acts?

    • Babak Navabi Babak Navabi Saudi Arabia says:

      Yes, there may be certain built in bias in some tests, but what the article in question is essentially stating is that even if corrected for such biases Afro-Americans, and especially Sub-Sahara blacks scored on average lower than whites and East Asians and that this lower score directly correlates to their lower brain mass compared with Whites, in the same manner as the intelligence of whites and their brain mass compares with those of East Asians.

    • Stephen Pollington Stephen Pollington United States says:

      Utter RUBBISH!
      If your theory held true that blacks underperform on IQ tests due to cultural-specific test questions then why are American Asians and foreign Asian exchange students outperforming both whites and blacks on the so-called "Cultural specific tests"
      Your theory is far-leftist, equal outcome, utopian garbage, and propaganda...

  3. John John United States says:

    Black Supremacist, please stop spamming your copied and pasted drivel.

  4. Steve Steve United States says:

    Dear BS- It's interesting that you had to go back over 40 years to find studies to support your beliefs.... must have taken a lot of time.

  5. opex9718 opex9718 United States says:

    its so funny that everyone just loved to here that whites are so much smarter than blacks then when someone post facts from source after source saying sorry yall its just not true,now the white folks have a problem and want to get mad becouse there superior bubble is burst!I should ask my little sister who graduated from yale and is currently a doctor what she thinks.She may have a better opinion than i do seeing that she graduated from UCLA before going off to Yale,but then again she is just another stupid black women!

    • John John United States says:

      First of all, please learn the difference between "here" and "hear."

      I highly doubt that your sister graduated from Yale since intelligence is highly heritable, and you seem to be rather mentally deficient. (Of course, blacks aren't known to respect monogamy -- perhaps she's your half-sister.) And even if she did get into Yale, she almost certainly benefited substantially from affirmative action -- don't think her potential employers won't know this.

      Anyway, yes, black supremacist did post a lot of "evidence," but he failed to cite it with accessible sources! How are we supposed to verify if his evidence is true? There is simply no reason to believe that anything he said is true.

    • Nick Nick United States says:

      Actually, these "racist" tests show that East Asians have the highest IQ. So these racist whiteys made up racist IQ tests to make East Asians look smarter than the rest of the people? Why is it that Chinese and Indian immigrants can come to the US and take college entrance exams and not complain, while blacks who were born here keep complaining that the tests are culturally or racially biased?

    • Stefan van Westing Stefan van Westing Netherlands says:

      All of these sources date back to the 60's and 70's when you had hippies forging study's to raise the belief that blacks were competent in order to push through the "multiculturalist" agenda.

      Many of those were frauds ... are there any new and reliable sources ?

  6. MAC MAC United States says:

    Hi Opex, Your email didn't do anything to support your case. Next time, I suggest that you use spell check before you post.

  7. J A J A United States says:

    I think it's true as with other genetic/race traits.  It doesn't mean someone of a certain race that has tendency's to score lower on IQ tests means that the race as a whole is "dumber" than another.  It means that there are talents that they have in other areas that another race might lack in slightly from another.  One may have better communication abilities, while another may have better problem solving abilities, and another have a better memory. I'm just saying that this test does not go in depth enough and needs further research..  I'd say average out everyone of different races abilities and it would all average out to equal.

    -A German/Lithuanian/Cherokee

    • Edward Wolf Edward Wolf Australia says:

      Thank God I see at least one sensible and unbiased person here

    • Stefan van Westing Stefan van Westing Netherlands says:

      Oh ....factual things like averages don't get in the way do they ?

      If persons of a certain group in 95% of all cases score significantly lower than the 95 % of another specific group this DOES IN FACT indicate a "tendency" to be dumber if you're from the first group.

      There are always exceptions to the case that go against the common example.

      What people like you do is take one smart black man, and then try to extrapolate that to the entire black race, saying race has no significant influence.

      Even though 95% of the white race, scores higher than 95 % of the black race.

      Averages exist, stop trying to deny that.

      • tmarko yea tmarko yea United States says:

        Hey buddy, you missed the point.

        Whites and asians score significantly higher on IQ tests.

        Blacks dominant sports and athletics.

        If you'd ever studied psychological theories, you'd know that there are different "types" of intelligence. Do you think that coordinating your body movements is easy? It takes tremendous brain power to move fluidly while maintaining an kinesthetic awareness of your surroundings. Blacks tend to have more of their brain-power devoted to that.

        It also reads in the study that blacks have a better "working memory than whites.

        As well, blacks tend to be more masculine than whites or Asians.

        None of these factor mean that one race is "superior" to the other. The current socio-political situation on earth is no testament to the superiority of the white race. There was once a time when power and intellectualism were Afrocentric, and people travelled across continents to attend African universities in great African empires; but, of course, you won't learn about that in white-centric schools.

        As well, East Asian countries are surpassing white countries economically and politically. We may well witness the balance of power shift in their favor soon.

        In closing, you should consider the different races of man have different talents and abilities. Instead of being fearful, intimidated, and reactionary to that fact, accept it and apply the knowledge to your own life.

        • RYU BK RYU BK United States says:

          "Blacks tend to be more masculine than whites or asians"
          Only African-Americans are. Body structure of pure Africans aren't as tall or big as the African-Americans. Ever considered the diet? Out of all the meat products available, chickens are grown the fastest through the method of steroid. Chickens are fully grown in 2 weeks time. Their bodies grow, but their head remains small and are sold as headless chickens over at the supermarket. The very same chickens sold in popeyes and KFC. Now imagine feeding that to people, it's indirect steroids. Why do you think kids get periods or grow pubic hair faster than the 60s or 70s? In Asia, average height of South Koreans tower over at 3"+ compared to the Japanese or Chinese. South Korea is the #1 importer of American meat. While vegetable and rice is the main diet in all three countries, meat tends to be on the Korean(Galbi & SamGyupSal) table a lot more than the Chinese or Japanese(mainly fish-Sushi/Sashimi).

          "Blacks dominate sports and athletics"
          You're strictly refering to Basketball and Football. Please do not count Tigers Woods in golf. He's the only African-American and he doesn't count, because he's actually half Asian. Even if we're talking about football and bastketball, please consider the diet. You might squeeze in one or two pure Africans to play basketball(Mutumbo, Olajuwon), but those heights aren't natural in Africa and are seldomly rare, as Yao Ming in China, while it's common here in America. You certainly do not see as many pure African players in football as their built aren't made the same as African-Americans. You might also want to check the build on American-Whites compared to European White or American-Asians(pure American born) compared to Asians. With that said... Soccer, Swimming, Hockey, Ice Skating(Figure), Golf, Tennis, Ping Pong, Archery, etc. are dominated by Whites and Asians.

        • Lucius Lucius Lucius Lucius United States says:

          You stated that the world used to be Afrocentric and that is true. However, Africa as a continent has not been historically black.

          The Egyptian Empire for example was not composed of black Africans, although they are clearly depicted in some Egyptian paintings as slaves to the Egyptians, who would have looked more like what we would consider Arabs than black people.

          The only really notable African culture that comes to my mind was Ancient Ethiopia, which wasn't so much known for its cultural sophistication as for its massive wealth as a result of sitting on major natural resources.

          People too often get confused into thinking that Africa is the land of black people, when only the southern half was typically black.

        • Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:

          What is it with 'Blacks' making outrageous Afrocentric claims yet not providing any supportive evidence whatsoever. You say "There was once a time when power and intellectualism were Afrocentric, and people travelled across continents to attend African universities in great African empires; but, of course, you won't learn about that in white-centric schools. " When exactly was this time? If this is indeed true then I for one would find it very interesting. But I doubt it is true and furthermore I'm assuming that the places you are referring to are 'North African' (Carthaginians, Phoenicians etc.) where the people are far from black.

        • Xzanaith B Xzanaith B United States says:

          They were NOT black African Empires.

        • Grand Cl_eagle Grand Cl_eagle United States says:

          Tmarko - that sounds reasonable.  I mean different subspecies of other mammals have different qualities.  I agree that blacks dominate the sports world due to their superior physical traits.  I think the main strength of the white sub species (but don't think it's true for all white tribes) is the ability to work cooperatively better than others - to include the Asian and Jewish sub sets that have superior intelligence quotients.  I think this stems from our development in Northern, colder climates where shared work was required for survival.  I thought of this while considering the different basketball styles of Notre Dame and Michigan as told in the book "Stuff black people don't like" by Paul Kersey.  It's an interesting read.

        • William Griffin William Griffin United States says:

          "People travelled across continents to attend African universities in great African empires"

          The first known university was indeed in Africa, but it was Muslim, not sub-Saharan African. It also was not built until around the 12th century AD.

        • Michael Stewart Michael Stewart United States says:


          You won't learn about it because it's a fantasy. Black Americans should strive to get their average IQ up and fix the destructive culture in the inner cities, regardless of who is responsible for the current situation. Trading phony arguments and fantasies  back and forth is not a positive activity.

    • Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:

      Actually IQ tests cater to all the areas of intelligence you just mentioned. They are designed to be fully comprehensive and were originally created by 'whites', yet East Asians outperformed the 'whites', but the 'blacks' performed abysmally.  IQ tests don't cater to white people, they cater to intelligent people.

      • Michael Stewart Michael Stewart United States says:

        Don't know how you would design an IQ test to be "fully comprehensive." Test scores probably correlate with creativity, for example, but there is no attempt to measure creativity as such. Specific talents are probably correlated with test scores to some extent, but tests are not designed to measure them. There is also the question of proper weighting  of subtest scores. IQ tests do in fact correlate with measures of performance in school and work, especially in conjunction with a measure of conscientiousness, but I doubt if any designer would claim that his test is "fully comprehensive."

  8. The Monk The Monk United States says:

    Interesting to read as well:


    stating such facts as:

    The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
    -- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
    -- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)


    Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for


  9. A. Shevis A. Shevis United States says:

    What's crazy is that, if you look at reproduction rates, there is a correlation between IQ and reproduction - but on its face seems to indicate almost an anti-evolutionary track.  On balance, low I.Q. people have far more children per/capita than do high I.Q. people...People with high I.Q.'s have the least children per/capita.  That's just crazy.

  10. A. Shevis A. Shevis United States says:

    Just look at the average IQ by country - it's overwhelming evidence of the wide difference in iq's.  But IQ doesn't address all life situations, do they?  I don't think Einstein would do well lined up at wide receiver for the Washington Redskins.  

    The important thing is what does society reward?  Generally, it rewards high iq.


  11. John John United States says:

    Maybe we should ship them back to Africa?

    • Gavin Foster Gavin Foster United States says:


    • Yes
      Estelle de Coultre Estelle de Coultre United States says:

      Now that would be an interesting experiment. The negros in Africa will treat their "brothers'' like shit. I lived in Kenya for a while and have seen the "racism" between tribes to be more violent than ANYTHING whitey has ever done to them...and that is hard to beat. No pun intended, lol

  12. Barry Richter Barry Richter   says:

    John, you are racist trailer trash. America would not be the country it is today if not for the free labor (slavery) and contributions made to this country by African-Americans. People like you are the cause of most of the problems and shortcomings (no pun intended) of this country today!

  13. Harding Harding United States says:

    Your reasoning is fallacious because it assumes that the way America prospered (slavery) is the only way it could have prospered.

    A similar argument is that we wouldn't know about relativity -- and would never know about it -- if Einstein hadn't been born. This argument leaves out the possibility that someone other than Einstein could have discover relativity, just as your argument ignores the possibility that America could have prospered by a means other than slavery.

  14. Dagny Taggart Dagny Taggart United States says:

    The actual issue that everyone sidesteps is not with the "race" but the leadership. The reason that African Americans consistently do poorly on any measure of outcomes is that the leadership of the black community owes it's very existence on there being an "oppressed" underclass.

    If black leaders, or white leaders that pander to the same underclass, actually had their constituent's betterment as their focus, they would lose their following. Fair housing, class mobility, economic opportunity and access to the trappings of the middle class are not segregated only to whites. As all of these things are gathered wholesale by eastern and western Asians. Indians come from a culture that is currently(today) stratified by caste. A deep and unyielding segregation bordering on slavery for some. Yet even the lower castes come here and prosper. How many Indians do you see in public housing?  The differences are in entitlement, self-sustainability and accountability.

    Political correctness has become the constitution. Even if studies that focus on genetic differences could be used to help the plight of minorities, they are buried, dismissed or ignored. Did anyone see this on any national broadcast news? The so-called leadership of an entire minority is incentivized on keeping them just where they are and convincing them that the only solution to their situation is allegiance to the leaders.

    Blame the political class, not the manipulated masses. No test can determine accountability and self-sufficiency. Oh, sorry--except one. Life.

    • WTF
      Flabbergasted Flabbergasted United States says:

      Since every-one seems to be airing their wacky ideas, here is mine.

      Why do Asians seem to do better than blacks in the US?

      For me the answer is simple, and runs thus:

      Most white men have a strong fear of black men. There is nothing scarier to an average white man than a black man unshackled - in a position to freely compete and challenge.Many white men fear this because they have a deeply repressed dread that they would come the worse off in such a situation. Irrational, if you ask me, but oh so true.They may feel the same with regards to Asian men but not with the same intensity. So these Asian men have more chances of doing better as they do not face as many hurdles from the MAN.

      Out of this widely held insecurity complex has sprung the myth of the inferiority of the black man to the white man - the greatest fraud in human history.

      Why is it a fraud? Simply because those who have propounded and propagated it have shown by their actions that they do not believe in it.

      Simply because if black men were really inferior to white men, then the attitudes of "race conscious" white men towards blacks should have been characterized by paternalistic benevolence. Instead much of modern history has been characterized by the unscrupulous but futile attempts of the white man to repress and shackle the black man.

      If black men were really dumber than white men - then why the repressive legislation and practices in matters of professions. Why the death penalty for any-one found teaching slaves to read and write? Surely with their lower cranial volume blacks would naturally not pose any threat. There would therefore be no need for the unpleasantness that has characterized much of Black-White interactions in history.

  15. j-boy j-boy United States says:

    High IQs correlate to high scores on standardized tests: Asians/Whites at the one extreme end and the blacks on the other. also, Jews as a group are the most successful ethnicity in terms of achievements...is it any surprise to anybody?

    Why can't we just accept the truth and move on...

    Oh yeah, blacks on average are the best athletes in the world than any other racial/ethnic groups...I guess God is fair!

  16. Alan Alan Ireland says:

    Ok. Im just randomly passing by this webpage so have no interest or obsession with the subject.

    Quickly, some of my observations would be:

    1). It seems to me that brain size isn't indicative of intelligence. There was a news report some time ago about a man with a degree in mathematics who went for an X-Ray and amazed and startled himself and doctors with the discovery that he had almost no brain and a hollow skull.  If intelligence was related to brain size then  how come Einstein was'nt a freak with a brain the size of a house. Einstein was'nt 6 foot 10 with a 250 pound brain. Nobody would point and laugh at his huge head. However his brain did work efficiently.
    Then of course we have gifted children whos brains are smaller than those of fully grown adults yet who can find the prime number solutions of really difficult problems.

    2.) People should'nt be using the question of racial intelligence to engage in triumphalism whatever the result. Triumphalism is childish and not intelligent.

    3.) I would not be of the opinion that intelligence or superior athleticism happens accidentally. What is random is whether or not it is exploited to the advantage of humanity but theres no way if I had better parents  or a wealthier upbringing that I would be able to find out whether 998989322344 is a prime number without a pencil and  a piece of paper. Middle class families often have a kid who does well in school plus a kid who does poorly so whats thew difference if its not something innante ? You can give a pencil to a 5 year old. One will draw a masterpiece and the other like myself will draw a stickman. We cant all be Einsteins of Van Goghs however apart from those who are innately psychpoathic, we can be educated with the ethic to respect and care for each other.'

    • Lizzie Lizzie United States says:

      I would hope you wouldn't need a piece of paper to know that 998989322344 is not a prime number, because even numbers other than 2 can not be prime.

    • persephone persephone United States says:

      Going back to the article/general discussion of race and IQ, I wanted to bring up another point and ask if you guys realized that there are inherently MAJOR problems with sample size and standard deviation considering there are billions of any given race. You are not polling a country but an entire race.... Sample size is a well-known MAJOR starting-point issue with any study - ask any statician or researcher or look it up.

      Further, if there is some truth to this as a general rule I'd look to environmental factors and diet. Third world societies can NOT be judged in the same light and given the same IQ tests.

    • Xzanaith B Xzanaith B United States says:

      I.Q. has to do with how the brain is configured as well as size.

  17. HHH HHH People's Republic of China says:

    I am a Chinese and grew up in a large city.

    My IQ score is 137. But I don't think I am clever around my Chinese friends. Normally a high school student in China would have >110 although I didn't do the statistics.

    • Skeptic Skeptic United States says:

      HHH: I once saw statistics on the Chinese education system. I recall that only a tiny percentage of the Chinese population makes it into the university system. (I believe it was around 2%. But you probably have a better idea than I.) So, university students are the cream of the crop. If your friends are university students, then they are undoubtedly highly intelligent. Even with an IQ of 137, you would not necessarily stand out.

      IQ is usually defined such that the average is 100. One standard deviation is 15 points. So, someone with an IQ of 130 is two standard deviations above the mean. This is only the ninety-fifth percentile on a Gaussian distribution. (5% of the population has an IQ above 130.) You are about halfway between two and three standard deviations. That puts you at roughly the ninety-ninth percentile of intelligence: about average in a pool of the smartest two percent of the population.

      Even if you think that the average high school student has an IQ above 110, that is still less than one standard deviation from the mean. An IQ test ideally is supposed to measure innate intelligence, regardless of education and background. However in practice, it is not clear that one can completely separate pure cognitive ability from skills developed in the classroom and elsewhere. All IQ differences between different races are one standard deviation or less from the mean. This can easily be explained by variations in education and privelege, as well as cultural differences.

    • Henry Stoneking Henry Stoneking United States says:

      Measure your cranium circumference right now and tell me if you are anywhere near 24 inches.

  18. HHH HHH People's Republic of China says:

    Of course I am well educated. For my university classmates, I think they should all get around 130. It's just too normal to have around an IQ of 120 in China. The problem is that these smart guys only earn 200 euros every month.

    • Henry Stoneking Henry Stoneking United States says:

      Are boring the hell out of the professors here.  They are unable to learn because they are probably from the communist party, and given fake test scores to justify their admittance.  This article is about brain size, and Asians have tiny heads.

  19. ORIT ORIT United Kingdom says:

    I love it how so many people on these boards proclaim their own high IQ - nobody of course is anything other than gifted...

    You do all know that 90% of all these poxy IQ Tests you have taken aren't worth Jack S***

    The truth about IQ is that when measured properly it has repeatedly been found to be the best predictor of success in an industrialised society and the differences between groups (with a massive overlap of course) has been well known for decades.

    The only thing in dispute is what percentage of those differences is genetic - clearly it is far from 100% and people can better themselves - but the idea that the differences are 100% environmental doesn't stand up to realistic scrutiny. There are obviously people on these boards that don't want to look at the overwhelming evidence in an objective way.

    The world would be an easier place to live if it wasn't so, but we can all see with our own eyes that the differences exist.

  20. John Smith John Smith United States says:

    Just like some families are more intelligent than other families (ie: families where everyone is either a lawyer, a doctor, a businessman or a politician vs. families where maybe only 1 person went to college), it is conceivable that some "races" are ON AVERAGE more intelligent than other "races".

    • Alan Alan United States says:

      Facts are facts.  Asians have the highest IQ's, then Caucasions, Latino's, and then blacks.  This is average by group.  There are of course many blacks with higher IQ's than Asians and Whites.  As an employer, I higher the best person for the job.  In all cases, I higher the person with the best work ethic combined with a high intelligence.  Nothing worse than a very smart person who is lazy.  Depending on the job, an eager less intelligent person is just not going to cut the mustard.  Intelligence is important, you just need a good balance.  Most black children have parents who do not care about education.  Education starts and ends in the home.  My neighbor has 2 children, one has a high IQ and the other has an IQ which is below average.  The parents spend a lot of extra time with their less intelligent child.  Because of this, the child is successful in school, without all the extra effort, she would fail out of school.  The difference between her and the average black child is the parents involvement.  Blacks have a high drop out rate because the parents, or should I say parent is very lazy and takes no active role in the childs educational development.  People, black or white with lower intelligence need all the extra help they can get.  I would love to see Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson take out all their hatred on the black parents and stop blaming whitey.

  21. S. E. Joseph S. E. Joseph United States says:

    Gee, all this time I thought that it was talent and hard work contributed to obtaining two master's degrees and my upcoming doctorate. Now I know that it was the generations of white men who sexually exploited my foremothers that have given me my big brain! White narcissism and arrogance knows no bounds.

    • Sam Sam United States says:

      No one is saying that a black person CANT have a high IQ or be intelligent or succeed.

      However, many studies by many different groups, controlling for all other variables but race have shown the same things over and over again:
      East Asians have slightly higher IQs than Whites, Whites have significantly higher IQs than blacks.

      We have been searching for a reason for the relative failure of black people throughout the world. Why do all black countries fail? Why do blacks perform poorly, on average, in academia? Well, think about it: Doesn't it make sense that countries whose average intelligence is 15-30 IQ points lower than other countries would not have enough individuals to become first world?

      If you are black and as intelligent as you say you are, you should be working towards maximizing your fellow blacks potential. I can give you some advice: Blaming whites for all black problems will not do this.

  22. ORIT ORIT United Kingdom says:

    As caucasians are not claimed to be the brightest on average I do not understand why you would want to turn this into a specific Black-White issue.

    Instead of discussing the issue rationally you start boasting about yourself and attacking others - it makes you look like a bit of a tool.

  23. Cairin Cairin United States says:

    This is simply racist! I cannot belive someone from Berkeley was involved in this clap trap. I am white and I don't give a flit what my IQ is because I am secure in my own abilities but apparently these idiots need IQ test and studies to stroke their flailing egos and deep rooted insecurities. They should all burn their cards in Mensa and join SAIA. (Stupid Ass----s in America). WE HAVE SO MANY!

  24. Mushroom Mushroom Sweden says:

    I just wish that racists stop exploiting studies like these. This doesn't need to be a taboo subject. The fact is that black people are underperforming in academic endeavours (as a group, not necessarily individually).

    We should try to understand how much of it is genetic and how much is dependent on environment. This could lead to a better understanding of where the differences lie and what could be done to close the gap.

    And yes, whites can learn a thing or two from other cultures. Because a race that is highly materialistic and linear in thinking isn't exactly an advantage in all situations. Again, what is genetic and what is environmental in creating such a left hemisphere bias is up for discussion. Just saying that you aren't some kind of triumph of human evolution.

    I'm not anti anyone.

  25. ORIT ORIT United Kingdom says:

    Not sure why you are talking about 'whites' again, these studies do not show 'whites' as having the highest average IQ.

  26. goodtallviking goodtallviking United States says:

    Here's the question to which  I think we should: Given that 1/2 of our population has "below average IQ" (by definition), and given that this difference cannot ever be removed, or even reduced, what should we do to achieve the best society ? If by "best society " we can all agree that we bean the one that will maximize every one's opportunity to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," then let's roll up our sleves and figure that out.

    We have learned that trying to make every one equal in IQ is a complete failure. The Great Society and Head Start and all proved that !Cuba, China, and the USSR taught us that simply giving everyone equal income regardless of ability also fails.

    So what is left ? I do not have that answer, but I think we should all work on finding an answer. Let America once again be the "city on the hill," that leads the world to a better place.

    Let us strive for a world that nurtures independence, self reliance, hard work, faith in God, autonomy, personal freedom, and all of the important, classical virtues. But let us strive for one that also keeps the "floor" of personal failure high enough that the least among us are not in abject misery.

    Time to create the next and best social system for our glorious republic !

  27. Mushroom Mushroom Sweden says:


    Because that is where the historical tension lies. Because it was whites that have upheld racial theories and implemented it in social institutions in europe and the US.

    It doesn't matter in this discussion that east asians average 5 points ahead of whites, because if you read between the lines, what white supremacists are saying is that 5 points doesn't matter much. Do you get it now?

  28. ORIT ORIT United Kingdom says:

    Mushroom, no I don't get it, you cannot make a supremacist argument on being five points BEHIND. I think YOU are looking for a problem.

    Every institution I have had experience with in my country only discriminates in so far as checking there are ENOUGH minorities in that institution to fulfil a minimum set quota - regardless of ability. In my country it is now legal to deliberately discriminate specifically against white males - that's the law.

  29. Krishna Krishna India says:

    To All the folks ( black, white and all else ) who posted here,
    I am a  Indian, born and educated in India. I have a graduate degree from very good Indian colleges,worked ( software engineering manager)  in the USA for a few years as well and know a thing or two about US society. My IQ is definitely on the higher side, but i would not post it here.

    First a few opinions from me:
    - There is incontrovertible proof that IQ is inheritable , atleast upwards of 50%.
    - But it is also true that there are huge differences within a race. There are i am sure there are 140+ IQ blacks as there are sub 70 IQ whites.
    - It is also true that IQ is very complex. It depends on
         --- nutrition
         --- brain size
         --- cultural nuetrality of tests and language
         --- Education level of parents and the general sorroundings.
         --- even order of birth
         --- Many other factors.

    - I am also not sure, if comparing Black American IQ with other races is fair. US blacks were those selected for physical labor, not for their brains, when they were shipped to US. So there was likely to be some selective  pressure that played a role in their IQ. Same for Indian US ( and chinese as well ) immigrants, on the opposite direction, many studies show average IQ above of 115  or near this figure. This again is due to selective pressure.
    Also, as someone pointed out i am not sure, the average black parent ( single or double ) cares about the education of his/her kids. Chinese, Indian and Korean parents spend all their energy on their kids education.

    - That is why the best IQ tests are those that are culture neutral and can measure general intelligence without being too hard or easy to any one race or cultural group. I am not sure, that somehow the US blacks are at a disadvantage due to difference in black culture and white cultures. If true, even East Asians, Indians in India and US are at a bigger disadvantage many of who speak a non English language at home, are not christians .

    - Generally white nations seem to be properous, and now many east asian nations also seem to be joining them.

    - I see many black nations, in Africa ( and Haiti ) impoverished, and crime ridden. I dont buy that colonial rule did this to them. Many are free countries now. Even countries like Korea, China ( partially ) and India were either ruled over or very poor in the 1950s. But they seem to be prospering of late. If Africans still dont beleive, this, then may be there is  some international white conspiracy ( that i cannot apparently fathom ), that is somehow keeping these couries poor.

    - Though I have no problem admitting that East Asians ( koreans, chinese, Japanese ) have a high average IQ, i must also admit that, these societies have not been the torch bearers of creativity or originators of technical inventions in the last few centuries. It is the predominantly West and central europeans that were responsible for the modern society and all the technology. So there you go, having highest IQ has not exactly given rise to geniuses ( chinese, korean and Japanese ).Something that blacks should take note of.

    - At the end of the day, average IQ of a race means nothing to me. I see a black individual with 140+ IQ and a white individual with 90 IQ, i am going to select the black guy for any congitively demanding job.  At the end of the day, it is important to be objective about IQ, race and cause and effect, so that, any new knowledge gained could be put to good use in improving everyones lot.

    - Well one ray of hope about this IQ. We are probably on the verge of figuring out the genes for IQ and intelligence. I am wondering, ( setting aside all the social and political minefields, doing this might generate ) one day it may become routine to selectively have kids with these genes ( or have these genes inserted from outside )  and ensure all kids have high IQ. Then perhaps , this IQ 'thing' will become a non issue.

  30. Krishna Krishna India says:

    Quote from one of the persons who posted:


    Assuming this research is very true, why cannot anyone ( black educationists or other researchers ) come up with IQ tests that do assess skills that are considered important to blacks?. Is it too hard to do that?

    From a purely curiosity point of view, I wonder what criteria or items are salient or 'valued' within African-American culture. Anyone can enlighten me or offer guesses!.

  31. Skeptic Skeptic United States says:






  32. Irungu Kangata Irungu Kangata Kenya says:

    I am a Kenyan, Black African lawyer. I am a black nationalist, in fact, a Rastafarian - a religion drawing inspiration from ultra-black nationalists like Garvey.

    Does Culture play any part in IQ assessment? This study is not very clear on that. I think it does. Probably Blacks IQ is low because there does not exists a universal Black culture (e.g a black religion or political thought system which has existed over many years and probably imposed to other societies) as opposed to the other races. Take religion. Christianity, though not originally from Europe is basically a white religion;Islam is  Arab;Hindu is Asian etc.

    Personally, I tend to agree that the black race has a problem though I am not sure whether it is genetic. This is because in all societies in the world, blacks are committing vices at a higher rate compared to other races(even to their very own). Secondly, We do not have a single black nation which is showing any potentiality of prospering in the near future.But most pathetic, blacks' level of assimilation by the cultures of other people is pathetic. Blacks have  adopted  the negative aspects of the other people's culture to their own detriment. Blacks tend to blame whites for their underdevelopment,but they are not offering any resistance to that perceived domination (intellectual or  even physical like what Alqueda are doing presently). I was astonished to find that the rates of black-to-black crime, divorces,abortion and extra-marital fertility  are highest amongst all other American ethnic groups.In Africa,our governments have aligned themselves with the west in all international issues;every domestic discourse   is justified by a quotation of the West. The Black youth are not interested in serious issues of politics or economics but watching European soccer. In fact, I suspect that probably,at this rate, black race with its multitude of problems will be wiped out. I understand in the US, Latinos have now overtaken Blacks in terms of population.

    The East Asians, Indians and some modern Arabic counties like UAE and Kuwait  have maintained their unique cultures and this probably explains their present economic ascent.Well,we do not have a cross-cutting authentic African culture to fall back to but I am convinced that Blacks should endeavor to mould a unique,progressive culture (that is scientific) which is disengaged or independent from the West to stimulate an economic and social take-off.

    Irungu, Kenya.

    • Patrick Patrick Australia says:

      They are some very thought provoking ideas that you wrote Irungu. The entire discussion is very interesting, although I think some of the posters are a little shrill in their opinions.

      I also would agree that there must be some genetic basis for intelligence and that it would probably vary depending on race. I think that it is a difficult thing for many people to accept calmly though, as it has many implications.

    • Watanabe Watanabe Japan says:

      I agree. Maybe the solution is to stop adopting other thought systems and make your own. Like East Asians have a culture of only the highest achievement. I'm sure if we see a powerful culture like that develop in Africa we might see drastic changes. All I see in Africa right now is a poor culture of corruption and violence.

    • trevor kidd trevor kidd Canada says:

      I would add that the problem of IQ gaps is largely genetic due to environmental and evolutionary factors over the last 60,000 years. It is well established that modern humans evolved  in Africa around 200k years ago. Those proto-moderns that left the more stable and warm climate of Africa and slugged it out in Ice-age Europe have these extreme environments to thank for their propensity for higher AVERAGE intelligence. Pressure to survive exceedingly long Ice-age winters selected for the truly hardy and bright among the limited survivors. It was natural selection that helped "over-represent" the survivors with sharp minds, the dull never had a chance(they would have not been able to cope with -40 winters and little food). Of note,  4% of non-African DNA is neanderthal. I think the mutations and selective forces allowed more of the ancient homo-sapiens in Ice-age Europe and Asia to unconsciously select for intelligence, instead of their ability to dance or for bravery. To assume the Human brain stopped evolving 50-100k years ago, makes absolutely no sense, especially since mankind was extremely isolated and small in number in the relevant time period.  One must remember our own emergence from the jungles to the more challenging African Savannah allowed us to evolve at a rapid rate, while our closest relatives, chimpanzees,  remained MUCH CLOSER to our common ancestor. The same evolutionary pressures that  allowed our brains to quintuple in size over chimps in Africa are the same conditions that caused a minor, but significant split in humanity from those who remained in less-challenging environments, to those who survived and prospered in difficult ones  

      I realize this isn't exactly politically correct, but it does seem to make sense. Had the climates of Europe and Asia been similar to Africa 100k years ago to the present time, there would likely be far less difference between races as we see now (perhaps none) To bury ones head in the sand and stifle the debate not to offend anyone, actually is offensive to those who seek the truth. Maybe then we can help African countries more effectively if we know WHY they are the way they are instead of ignoring the actual problems

  33. RightofRush RightofRush United States says:

    Mr. Katanga, I'm sure that you are aware of the infrastructure and civil service legacy of the White colonial powers as well as the value of European technology.  It would have been nice for you to have acknowledged so.

    • Quotexon Quotexon United States says:

      RightofRush, you must be kidding if you are suggesting that Africans harbor a sentiment of gratitude toward colonial whites for their "contributions". First off, any infrastructure that was developed, was done so for the increased dominance and comfort of the white colonials. Why do you think that it is impossible to find white South Africans citizens living in the dilapidated slums that native Africans were displaced to. This is analogous to how European colonists arrived in America and displaced Native Americans. Given that prior to European invasion, Native Americans were plentiful in numbers, I'd say that your "infrastructure and civil service", has all but crippled the native populace. But hey, whites never intended to develop the land for anyone other than their own greedy selves.

  34. Tshim Tshim United States says:

    If you have any knowledge about studies, you will know this study is very flawed. It does not take into account many factors. Such as cultural and environmental issues. This study and many of you arguing I believe do not realize the difference between genetic IQ and actual IQ. Genetic IQ is the range of IQ you are able to achieve, which is dependant on your genetics. Actual IQ is the IQ you currently have due to the education, environmental, and cultural factors of your life. So to summarize that for you, because I think many of you are too dumb to understand. That we all have a range of Iq we can achieve for example 110-130, now if you live in well developed environment with great education its very possible you can achieve a 130 IQ. On the other hand if you life in a culture that is not nurturing to Intelligence you will almost certainly be at the bottom of that scale at 110. This is what im trying to point out. That this study did not take this proven factor in to account. If you do not take factors like this into account, you can not make conclusions like this study did.

    • burford burford United States says:

      This fellow "thinks" that "...."many of you are too dumb to understand."

      How smart does one have to be to say such a magnificently ignorant thing?

    • Valris Valris United States says:

      IMHO culture and environment shouldn't be too much of an issue. Why? Simply because if you look at it from another perspective, culture and environment also involves intelligence. Culture (of all races) did not appear from nowhere. It was thought of by people (in the past) and in some cases, through trial and error that they found the ideal way of life they wanted and incorporated it into their lives. Their ways of life were then passed on generations after generations and eventually this became their culture. A culture is ever changing, even today. So, if you were to argue that certain people have higher iq because of their culture, then my question is, why didn't another group of people (who have lower iq supposedly due to their culture) come up with a culture that would allow them to have higher iq/ to prosper? Why did they decide to stick on with their culture that you seem to be indirectly saying, is hindering them from attaining high iq? Is it because they/ their ancestors weren't intelligent enough to realise the flaws in their culture? It most likely seems so (I'm assuming that everyone acts in self interest and so you wouldn't find people contented with a flawed culture.) Hence if you were to blame it on culture, it just reinforces that certain groups of people are more intelligent to have come up with a better culture.

  35. whatever whatever Canada says:


    • Watanabe Watanabe Japan says:


  36. Chris Chris United States says:

    it is really interesting to see the contradictory arguments on here. Many of you are proving you'll say anything to degrade blacks which really ends up proving the argument of the "liberal media". There are people on here who have actually said that maybe if blacks weren't so dumb they wouldn't have been enslaved or colonised. Then you call blacks violent. Well, couldn't someone supposedly respond to that pathetic excuse for an argument that if whites weren't so violent, opportunistic, inconsiderate, and ruthless that there wouldn't have been enslavement, Jim Crow, the KKK, Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, the Holocaust, the Cold War, the Civil War, WWI & WWII, raping and beating slaves, etc. etc.?? All these violent and inexcusable acts throughout history, and yet to blacks you apply a different standard? Very interesting. I'll tell you what I don't believe in "race", and do see inequality around me all the time, but at least you can say that inner city or African issues remain in their respective areas for the moat part. You don't see blacks starting wars with random countries, attempting to colonise Europe, or trying to enslaving anyone in the last hundreds of years

    • TyroniusJamalJackson TyroniusJamalJackson United States says:

      Please refer to the statistics published by the U.S. Department of Justice on "Crime and Race".  Why do you suppose that Detroit, New Orleans, Washington D.C. and Cincinatti are the crime centers of our country?  
      Is it because I don't encourage them to move next door to my family?  Is it because their great-great grandfathers were slaves?  Is it because male blacks never assume the role of "father"?  Is it because Free Gov't Cheese contains carefully crafted doses of cocaine?  Or, maybe, is it because they are inherently inferior to any civilized culture.

      Stop blaming your own miserable condition on others and take care of your welfare queens.

  37. Richard Richard United Kingdom says:

    Chris, not quite accurate to say that blacks didn't invade or enslave. The Bushmen of Southern Africa were ethnically cleansed and their lands taken away (they left evidence of  their decimation by blacks on their caves, whom they depicted as black, as opposed to their being brown). Also, starting long before the Trans-Atlantic slave-trade, the barbary pirates (Corsairs) launched continual attacks against Europe to capture slaves. Estimates are that more than a million Europeans were captured by Africans in this way. That is why France colonised Algeria, to stop the practice. In fact, I see you are from the USA: as far as I know, the first war your country fought after independence was against the African barbary pirates. Within Africa, there is a continual history of warfare and destruction and eradication of various tribes by others. The only difference is that Europe was able to project its power because they had boats to get them across the waters, but I think you are likely to find that a comparative scale would put Africans right up there. However, we are still living the post-colonial narrative of good blacks, bad whites, so this sort of thing, although freely available to read, is simply not interesting to ideologues.

  38. Chris Chris United States says:

    Nice try, but the Corsairs weren't "black". Thry were humans though, just like blacks. And they were for the most part Arabic and/or Muslims. And there is no narrative of "good blacks", as blacks are still stereotyped by many before they can even show their character

    Slavery did take place in Africa. However as it relates to hurting others, considering the World Wars, the Slave Trade, atomic bombings and killing for oil and power...historically "whites" as we like to call them has more of that rap sheet

    Personally it matters not to me. I see history and I see human violence. But if we are to use the logic of many on here, the logic is really astounding. It's the equivalent of calling blacks barbaric when the KKK and Nazis still exist..not to mention the Italian Mafia once caused a lot of pain and violence.


    • Richard Richard United Kingdom says:

      Your use of the word "try" (as in "nice try") is somewhat aggressive. Never mind, you no doubt have reasons for that behaviour. You are viewing the history of the world as a black person living within a white context. If you lived in a black context, you would see things rather differently. For example, if you visit Ulundi in South Africa, the residence of Shaka, king of the Zulus, you will find that he aggressively conquered and annihilated surrounding tribes, enslaving them, and totally assimilating them. Thousands of people fled this event (called the Mfecane in the Nguni language) and fled... to whites for protection. In fact, so many fled to the early white settlements that the Zulu kings became hostile to them. Before that, over the course of many thousands of years, negroid Africans overpopulated the Great Lakes region, and pushed southward, overwhelming all the indigenous peoples of the south, who were distinct ethnic groups. Blacks are no more indigenous to most of southern Africa than whites, they simply usurped the original inhabitants sooner, and more completely.

    • Gavin Foster Gavin Foster United States says:

      @ Chris
      So how did the whites (and the Muslims) get their slaves? they didn't "catch" them - they bought them from their brothers.

  39. Astrogirl Astrogirl Canada says:

    As a Black person, I don't think Blacks get it. They are always blaming Whites for their problem, yet the tend to strive in White environment more than their own.  They complain about the White school system (when it comes to math and science or language even), yet show up for gym class and dancing contest and other nonsense just fine.

    The issue with Blacks is serious, because it is a global one, so it can't be just racism. Go anywhere in the world where it's majority Black (nation, or neighbourhood) and it's the same scenario.

    Now they are obsessed with Ghetto garbage.

    • dawn dawn United States says:

      As a black person.... give me a break.  You're in Canada, so you don't get what goes on here in the US.  Now I don't know how Africans are in their own environment, but bring them to the US and they outshine any American.... white and or black when it come to US Academics.  That's with any foreigner...

      And yes, black people can't blame everything on whites when it comes to education.... but please, we have a long way to go.  I suggest you stay in Canada because you wouldn't make it here in the US... or you would be the black person standing around with a bunch of whites telling N'word jokes.    

      • William Griffin William Griffin United States says:


        Utter nonsense. The cream of the crop from other nations can come to the US and do quite well as any highly intelligent person is equal to other highly intelligent people of the same sort regardless of race, nationality, and so on. That does not mean that anyone from anywhere can come here and excel.

        An Indian person with a 150 IQ can obviously come to the US and do as well as an American with a 150 IQ, or a Chinese person with a 150 IQ, or a sub-Saharan African with a 150 IQ.

        That does not mean that "any foreigner" can come to the US and "outshine any American."

  40. dawn dawn United States says:

    I wonder how they came up with this study.  US, has the lowest IQ compared to other countries.  They lost me at the light skinned blacks had higher IQ than the average blacks... and brain size.... Give me a break.

    • steph steph United States says:

      To be realistic, Dawn, those crude categorizations are not the choice of the authors of the review.  That is derived from the decades of research that they are attempting to broadly summarize, not materials they wrote.

      I cant say I've read the criticisms of their work (although a number have been published and some are in my bookmarks), but I'd think they would be no longer tenured at universities such as UC Berkley if their review was at all unscientific.  

      Also, remember this are mean scores.  In theory, I would honestly think that any lower IQ race could breed up to higher standards in only a few centuries.  

      Evolution does not stop at the neck.  Similarly, an quantified evolutionary state is not a barrier, especially when it has been surpassed by the same species.

    • William Griffin William Griffin United States says:

      "US, has the lowest IQ compared to other countries"

      No, it does not. The US is in the Top 25 for average IQ (IQ and the Wealth of Nations).

  41. Al Al United States says:

    If you go to the Info Please web site, you will find pages that list all of the Nobel Prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine and economics and if you copy and paste that information into a Word document and us the "Replace All" function to count up the number of times that the name "Switzerland" occurs and then do the same for "Japan", "China", "India" and "Korea", you will see that the name, Switzerland, occurs more often than all those other names combined. Why would tiny Switzerland, with only 7.6 million people, produce more Nobel science winners than billions of Asians if the Asians are, on average, smarter than the Swiss?

  42. Ils Ils Switzerland says:

    I don't see why people are arguing the facts. This stuff is taught in my psych classes in uni. E. Asians DO have the highest iq and Africans DO have the lowest. It's established OK? The question is: is it purely genetic or are there cultural influences or is it a combination. We've known Asians had the highest for more than 50 years now and that Africans had lower iqs. Now we're just trying to find out WHY.

  43. M Khan M Khan United States says:

    Vitamin D deficiency is common among black skin even in tropics. It is worse in fully covered religious women. Brain development is abnormal and disorganized with Vitamin D deficiency. In black women in USA (northern latitudes) the amount of vitamin D reaching the developing fetal brain is close to Zero. Animal models (rats)show large brains large ventricles. Behavior in vitamin d deprived rats is abnormal showing erratic behavior suggestive of attention deficit.
    There are other factors as well and genetics may play a role. Fish oil( East Asians) and teaching of eastern languages in Chinese characters is also a factor according to research.

    So want to have intelligent children? (google it there are some good websites) Try the following. 4000 IU of vitamin D daily and make sure your vitamin D levels are normal before getting pregnant. Eat oily fish like salmon 2 to 3 times a week. Take omega 3 fish oil. Eat Almonds walnuts, ots of green vegetables and B vitamins.

    For rest of you please stop fighting do something constructive like informing colored people to load up on vitamin D.

  44. M hill M hill United States says:

    The entire study is based on statistical analysis of other studies they did not conduct their own research. You would think they would simply take the IQ of every person of their respective race, unfortunately that's not possible because not everyone takes the IQ test so whats the sample size?

    After reading the entire document, they never list the sample sizes.

    Secondly there are studies out there that show blacks do just as well as others when they are home schooled.

    Its interesting they only used a very selective sets of studies that supported their view points.

    We all know today sexuality orientation has nothing to do with aids but looking solely statistics it does.

  45. King King United Kingdom says:

    This is ridiculious..
    Native Born Africans are the most educated immigrants living in America currently according to the U.S Census and are actually more educated then current Americans also but im suppose to believe that Black People are genetically less smart? What lies, people are not considering culture and surroundings ..Also for the people who claim African countries are not growing, what are you talking about?

    Africa has some of the fastest growing economies in the world while eastern Europe has zero and western europe is cripped with debt, people need to research things before they type utter foolishness.

    • William Griffin William Griffin United States says:


      That is a meaningless statement. Even if that is true, legal immigrants in the US are not necessarily representative of their race, nationality, or whatnot. For example, let's stipulate a race of green people with an average IQ of 50, but three of them have an IQ of 180. If those three immigrated to the US, could you assume that the entire race of green people has an IQ of 180? Of course not, and you cannot use a small number of immigrants of any race to extrapolate anything about those back in their home countries.

      This does not mean that the article is correct in its entirety, or in part, but your anecdotal evidence about "Native Born Africans" being the "most educated immigrants living in America" as well as being "more educated [than] current Americans" does not negate this paper's findings.



  47. Contemplation Contemplation Canada says:


    • Tiff Tiff United States says:





  48. Lewis Loflin Lewis Loflin United States says:

    We can't broad brush Asians/whites, there are differences.

    Among whites, Jews, Unitarians, Quakers, and Anglicans outscore say much larger mostly working class whites groups such as Catholics and Baptists.

    Doesn't mean all Jews are super smart or Catholics are dumb. We need to see there's variations even within groups.

  49. IQ
    david david United States says:

    I think it all comes down to IQ

  50. Jimbo Jimbo United States says:

    One factor that we fail to mention is the role of geography in explaining average IQ differences between the so-called races. Scientist generally agree that modern day humans originate from Africa, and then later gradually migrated to other parts of the world. Geographically speaking, when humans arrived in parts of Europe and Asia, the environment provided them with clear advantages that might have led to these IQ discrepancies. Its not so much the environment, but its the culture cultivated from the environment.

  51. Jimbo, jimbo Jimbo, jimbo United States says:

    To further elaborate, Eurasia had the right set of  conditions that allowed for a higher IQ to come to fruition. Domestication of the native species of pigs, goats, cattle, barley, and wheat marked a transition from hunting and gathering to a more advanced form of agriculture than seen in other societies of the same era. This advanced agriculture was not only able to support denser populations, but also spurred about a divison of labor. Individuals began to have specific jobs and thus had time to master their craft and become innovators of new technologies and tools. Essentially, it could be the fact that they had to use their brains more, and this could have brought about the discrepancies in IQ levels that we see today.

    With this being said, intelligence is a mutable measure and is not something that is absolute. Based on the "Flynn Effect", average IQ scores have risen over time. While IQ test are standardized so that the average is around 100, the questions inherently become more difficult over time. For instance a person who has an IQ of 85 today (an average US black) , would have scored around a 100 if they took an IQ test from 1950. This simply says, that the human brain can adapt very rapidly and all human are getting smarter.

  52. Jimbo, jimbo Jimbo, jimbo United States says:

    Another point of contention is that IQ tests only measure a person's present reasoning abilities. Sure enough, if you take the time to teach people a few basic concepts then over a short amount of time, they would likely perform better on IQ tests. IQ tests say nothing about intellectual capacity, it only measures one's intelligence at its current state.

    And even if science one day does point to a gene that proves without a doubt that humans have different intellecutal capacities, should that give us reason to put races in a caste system? One can have a less than average intelligence level and still make significant contributions to a society.  Even if we prove that the black race is less intelligent, it does not mean they can't hold significant roles in a society. Even African Americans score lower than other groups, just look at what impact they have exerted on the world in terms music, entertainment, sports, and social movements. Bottom line, intelligence is not a good predictor of self worth.

  53. Premedman1992 Premedman1992 United States says:

    Well from what I have studied, I have concluded that yes everyone is of an African origin, in a sense, but after the migration of groups of people to the continents Europe, Africa, and Asia the various members of these groups'skin tones began to change based upon their need for vitamin D production. I am sure you all, being that this is a medical forum, know the rest of the story.

  54. Rocky Rocky United States says:

    The mentioned article cites studies from J. Phillippe Rushton, and Arthur Jensen. They are both known racists and their work has been discredited.  IQ tests are a FRAUD created by white men with an agenda.

  55. dave mcgee dave mcgee Canada says:

    Most of the research is valid The fact that over population and malnutrition has an effect on brain development for generations needs to be factorized for most of the black dominated country's  involved in any IQ comparisons

    • movegas1 movegas1 United States says:

      Most of African descent that I know are rediculously athletic and frankly superior in shear strength and physical fitness. I have no idea where your meeting your black friends......

  56. Pier Pier Australia says:

    This research doesn't appear to consider social or economical factors relating to racial differences in intelligence.
    Marginalised groups and those of a poor social economic background would be expexted to achieve to a lower IQ than a priveligded racial group in society.
    It should not be shocking to hear that blacks performed to a signicantly lower standard if they are tested in a continent ravaged by disease, malnutrition and civil war. Likewise in America a certain level of predudice still exists towards black americans that may effect level of education recieved.
    Because despite these test being 'equal footing' for all who take them the truth of the matter is one does require a certain level of education if they are to do well. For those with a limited education these questions and concepts may be very unfamiliar.
    Also if children tested aged 3 were supposed to be the control group i think their grades should be disregarded. It is not stated were these groups of children came from an the events surrounded them at the time they were tested. A number of environmental factors may have effected their level of developement.
    And finally i also do not believe brain size is of any significance. Their is huge variation between the sizes of men and womens brains yet any evidence stated men with the larger heavier brain are more intelligent then women has been disproved and tossed out of scientific debate. I beleive the same principle should be applied to variation of brain size between asians, whites and blacks.

  57. Nyder Nyder United States says:

    My thinking is that these results are related to testosterone levels primarily. Blacks have the highest average testosterone levels, whites in the middle, with east asians with the lowest.

    Lower testosterone levels will make one prone to abstract thinking while higher testosterone levels will make one prone to practical thinking. Think street smarts vs. book smarts. Whites and Asians will do better academically and thus score higher on an IQ test, but blacks will be better at dealing with the visceral world around them in a practical, common-sense manner.

    It's not that any race is more intelligent; it's that hormone levels will make one prone to different modes of thinking and understanding.

    In Africa natural selection will select those who are strong, masculine, and good at dealing with the warring nature of the tribal culture they're in. When people moved towards Europe, they had to think of creative ways to survive in the harsh environment and thus had to be more inventive.

    This is a matter of masculine vs. feminine intelligence, and masculine intelligence is not tested in IQ tests as effectively as feminine intelligence. In fact, masculine intelligence is much harder to design a test for in the first place.

  58. James James United States says:

    I'm white and have an IQ of 181. I don't believe race factors into IQ. It's true that blacks in the US may have an IQ lower than their white counterparts, but this test clearly didn't take into consideration the economic differences of the races. I guarantee that more people sampled in the inner city, where education quality is lower, were black and lower the average for their race.

  59. SteveW SteveW United States says:

    I have a female Springer Spaniel dog, who is AKC registered she has been with me since she was a puppy.

    I have often been amazed at how this dog, which is the third Springer Spaniel I've had in my lifetime - has the ability to 'associate' and 'memorize' certain words or actions that she sees me say or do.   Such as:  Whenever I intend to go somewhere in my vehicle, I have a habit of grabbing a stainless steel drink mug that I usually fill with ice cubes and blue Gatorade to take along with me on my trip, whether it be a short trip to the grocery store or anywhere else.  As soon as she sees me pick up that drink container and hears me dropping ice cubes into it, if she's in the house - she will immediately rush to the back door and wait, showing a clear anticipation of my impending departure.  If she's outside, her hearing is such that she can actually hear and recognize the sound of ice cubes dropping into that drink container and she will start whining and barking and raising a big ruckus, to let me know that she knows I am about to leave and that she hopes she can go with me.

    This is only one of the many other scenarios that this Spinger Spaniel seems to have stored away inside her head whereby she demonstrates the ability to form and remember 'associations' - that tell her, if he does this, then that means --- he is going to do this next.   This never ceases to amaze me and it is a clear indication that, simply by observing my behavior - she is able to almost read my mind and react accordingly.

    Blacks and many other non-whites who manage to live inside a historic White nation - alongside and able to observe the behavior of a race who is, on average, of higher intelligence than they might be - can, to some modest degree, be able to mimic some of those behaviors and benefit from being able to form associations in their less intelligent brains between mimicking the positive behaviors and the positive results that come their way as a result of their copying a certain behavior which leads to success or which yields positive results.

    The problem is - is that the vast majority of Blacks and other non-whites do not have this ability and are therefore not able to assimilate into White Western societies in such a manner as to not be a negative influence within it.    Instead, they follow their natural, genetically engrained instincts and behave as they would if they were in their natural habitat, i.e., if they were in Africa or whatever other third world, non-white nation where their race and people are dominant.   This creates an increasingly dangerous and potentially explosive degree of volatility within every historic White European nation which these nation destroying, clearly anti-white and intensely hostile, alien ruling elites have imposed - without the consent or approval of their  native White populations - the curse of multiculturalism and multi-racialism.    Never in world history has any multicultural, multi-racial civilization been successful over the long term - and they all have descended into horrible and extremely violent and bloody ethnic warfare between the various ethnic and racial groups as a result of the conflict and competition that arises between them.

    America will be no different - this is the future that our hostile and alien ruling elites are charting for White European people - in literally every historic White European nation.

    So, need I point out who should get top priority for 'counseling' once this ethnic conflict kicks off?

  60. Frank Bousek Frank Bousek Canada says:

    Very much true. It appears that they are for their past efforts in US today finally rewarded in Israel with black refugees complaining about discrimination, deportations and their black Jewish brothers Ethiopeans raising stink about their women being vaccinated with Depo-Provera as the means of birth rate control.

  61. Stephen White Stephen White United States says:

    I spent several hours reading the original article and all 192 posts here as I thought it was rather interesting. I almost made it to the end without encountering blatant anti-semitism but the last two posts sneaked in there. It's interesting, Ashkenazi Jews comprise about 1/5 of 1% of the world's population yet they get blamed by anti-semites for either controlling the world or causing all the ills of the world. Jews, again about 1/5 of 1% of the world's population, received almost a third of the Nobel prizes in recent times and are highly overrepresented for their numbers in fields of science, math, medicine, law, literature, and the arts. Interestingly, the higher average IQ score of Ashkenazi Jews is reflected mainly in the verbal/reasoning abilities; the visuospatial abilities are about average--that's where the East Asians excel. But to raise the average Jewish IQ about 13 points above average means that that portion of their abilities is probably close to double that above average, since the test combines both verbal/reasoning and visuospatial components. Visuospatial abilities are important in pursuits like engineering and architecture but for mathematics, except for certain fields like topology, it is the reasoning component that is the most important. Perhaps this is why Western countries have led the world in technological innovation and mathematics in recent times, even dating back to the Greeks and Romans--this slight edge that whites have over Asians in verbal/reasoning ability, especially since the last couple hundred years of Jewish emergence, may be what drives the innovation process. Of course when it comes to manufacturing the visuospatial ability of Asians would come into play. It takes only a fraction of one percent of the population with the highest ability to create the design innovation for the rest of the world, and the higher the average IQ of a population, the higher, exponentially, is the number of geniuses in that population. On another note, I don't know where the information for lower testosterone increasing academic ability comes from but my understanding is that just the opposite is true; higher testosterone levels increases visuospatial ability, and men on average have greater visuospatial ability than women.

  62. Lee Trotsky Lee Trotsky Australia says:

    This is a non-issue , genetic engineering will enhance human intelligence in the future, no need to stress.

  63. Stefan van Westing Stefan van Westing Netherlands says:

    That's so untrue ... the first computer was developed by the british in the 2nd world war to crack the Nazi secret communications code.

    I never understand why blacks continue to lie about having made inventions or pioneering stuff ... let me guess ... you're gonna claim the Wright brothers were black too don't you ?

    I don't fully understand why .. but i suppose they try to lie, imagine and 'engineer' a history of their own together to fill the utter void of blacks and any black contributor's in world history.

    Just accept black have historically been useless, they've only been useful idiots (in Lenin's words) by being slaves for a short while .... just like everyone else were enslaved at some point in time.

    Stop lying about blacks inventing shit they never invented in the first place ... you people are plainly forging a false history to give blacks the feeling that they belong ... and contribute to the modern world.

    They did not.

    • Brenda Savage Brenda Savage United States says:

      A black man invented the first personal computer like you are using to type your ignorance on. So thank that black man every you are able to show how stupid you are online... go look it up. You are proven to be an unintelligent fool.

    • Ali Denver Ali Denver United States says:

      Morocco held Spain for 700 years , so everything modern in Spain was from Africa  , while Europa had the dark ages Africa flourished , and as far as the I.Q. thing of course if they went and found any crack baby off of the street , or any bushman from Africa and tested them but test a black person not from that kind of back ground .

      • Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:

        You are using a white man's invention to speak a white man's language on a website created by a white man. You stupid Black man (see above).

        • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

          The language you are speaking is English well actually it's German Latin with dashes of Arabic actually the number system you are using and that was used to invent the computer was Arabic as well. They invented the very basis of the math you use today. Further more the technology of Black scholars was why every civilization sent their most learned to Africa to study from the great libraries and mountains of knowledge. This was of course burned by a group of white conquerers. We do know there are primitive batteries form people who were primarily black. There were also many black healers and medic throughout history.
          Lets be clear There are no black people I wonder how this study was conducted as all the people in most of the known world are mixed race. Trying to classify race and intelligence is always complicated because it depends on the very question of what is intelligence anyway. Further more If were doing race studies a Jewish Scientist made a similar discovery and not unlike this discovery She put Jews at the top of the IQ curve. It seems clear that while there is a correlation between genetics and intelligence. There is no reliable data that can show a causation.

          • Theresa Tenors Theresa Tenors United States says:



      • Xzanaith B Xzanaith B United States says:

        Why don't you volunteer?

      • Thomas Kable Thomas Kable United States says:

        North Africans, like the Moors from Morocco, are Berber, not Sub-Saharan black. This is a common misconception African Americans make all the time Ali Denver. Black people come from Sub-Saharan Africa, meaning below the Sahara Desert. North Africans are Berbers and Egyptians, people who look Middle Easter to us, they are not black. Various Islamic empires took holdings in Spain from the Germanic Visigoths and held them for close to 700 years before being driven out by Christians. No blacks ever ruled Spain or anywhere in Europe.

        • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

          Wrong Egyptians Moors etc. These lands have always maintained people who you would consider to be black. Go to INDIA the middle East even certain parts of Eastern Europe you will find people you would consider black have been there for a long long time.
          This does underscore a earlier point about the obvious mixing of races making any distinction just not credible at this point your basically going on skin color for a handful of generations.

      • Rog Dowsett Rog Dowsett United Kingdom says:

        You have just demonstrated one example of these findings. I.e.: an unfounded and destructive comment that only serves to bring racism into this subject, which has absolutely nothing to do with it. A low IQ I guess.

      • Mike Wood Mike Wood United States says:

        Before the Europeans visited sub-Sahara Africa, there wasn't one two story building or the wheel. The pyramids in Northern Africa and South America are still not understood regarding who built those. There is nothing in the hieroglyphics that even point to the architects or the builders. Also, look at every country in Africa that has their own ethnic rule and check their progress.  These statements are NOT racist, they are what they are, facts. This is not an indictment of a racial group. Think about the American Indians. When they are congregated on a reservation, poverty and alcoholism is rampant. What is anyones determination of progress? Most would agree that engineering prowess, mathematics, social cohesion and adaptation. Are these the mark of true intelligence? Some would argue a spiritual connection is the ultimate expression of true intelligence. Any thoughts?

    • Western O'Connor Western O'Connor United States says:

      you can interpret the bible in many ways.  some common interpretations are
      1. that adam was the first man. (another interpretation is there were men, and he was a sort of special man, (this fits with the bible as well, and it fits with historical humanlike bones of neanderthals and such.) his name Adam translates to face that blushes with blood. a description that fits most with whites)
      2.cain killed able, and was marked and made black.

      before the flood, god told noah to take "2 of every flesh" so this could translate to 2 of every race. there is no way to fairly even postulate that white man came after the flood. theres simply no evidence or reason to beleive that.

      the bible chapters you gave, really bear no relevancy... mabye you are talking about when god says he took the israelites out of egypt? and you assume because egypt is in africa, therefore the people coming from egypt where black? a far stretch.... but only thing atleast remotely reasonably.

      as far as inventions go.... before 2000 years ago, blacks had invented perhaps huts, chairs, tables and torches..... since learning from western society, they have made a few inventions.... anytime the poster invention for your race, is peanut butter xD haha .. well blacks did patent a refrigeration device, i do believe the device and technology was made before, but the black had just patented it for use to refrigerate. and they did a few things. nothing too noteworthy though.... nothing to brag about.

      • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

        Actually they state that only one of the daughter of Noah's sons would be what you considered white. All white people with blue eyes are genetically related to each other. The word Black is a misinterpretation btw think turned dark or evil. Cain was turned Bad by his deeds. This was a common mistranslation bandied about by racists in the 60s.

        I have digressed. Noah and his sons make the basic color pallet of non whites according to biblical texts which makes sense because the people telling the story wouldn't meet the white barbarians till some time after.

    • John Turner John Turner United States says:

      Here is some TRUTH for you Stefan van Westing:


















      Read more at www.snopes.com/.../blackinv.asp

      • Terri Skidmore Terri Skidmore United States says:

        MLK was a commie degenerate, nothing more.  


      • Dawn Ewers Dawn Ewers United States says:

        So many to go through.







      • Lady Wolf Lady Wolf United States says:








        • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

          1.) The glider
          2.) The battery (potentially)
          almanac                       Benjamin Banneker       Approx 1791
          auto fishing devise           G. Cook                 May 30, 1899
          automatic gear shift          Richard Spikes          February 28, 1932
          baby buggy                    W.H. Richardson         June 18, 1899
          bicycle frame                 L.R. Johnson            October 10, 1899
          biscuit cutter                A.P. Ashbourne          November 30, 1875
          blood plasma bag              Charles Drew            Approx. 1945
          cellular phone                Henry T. Sampson        July 6, 1971
          chamber commode               T. Elkins               January 3, 1897
          clothes dryer                 G. T. Sampson           June 6, 1862
          curtain rod                   S. R. Scratton          November 30, 1889
          curtain rod support           William S. Grant        August 4, 1896
          door knob                     O. Dorsey               December 10, 1878
          door stop                     O. Dorsey               December 10, 1878
          dust pan                      Lawrence P. Ray         August 3, 1897
          egg beater                    Willie Johnson          February 5, 1884
          electric lampbulb             Lewis Latimer           March 21, 1882
          elevator                      Alexander Miles         October 11, 1867
          eye protector                 P. Johnson              November 2, 1880
          fire escape ladder            J. W. Winters           May 7, 1878
          fire extinguisher             T. Marshall             October 26, 1872
          folding bed                   L. C. Bailey            July 18, 1899
          folding chair                 Brody & Surgwar         June 11, 1889
          fountain pen                  W. B. Purvis            January 7, 1890
          furniture caster              O. A. Fisher            1878
          gas mask                      Garrett Morgan          October 13, 1914
          golf tee                      T. Grant                December 12, 1899
          guitar                        Robert F. Flemming, Jr. March 3, 1886
          hair brush                    Lydia O. Newman         November 15, 18--
          hand stamp                    Walter B. Purvis        February 27 1883
          horse shoe                    J. Ricks                March 30, 1885
          ice cream scooper             A. L. Cralle            February 2, 1897
          improv. sugar making          Norbet Rillieux         December 10, 1846
          ironing board                 Sarah Boone             December 30, 1887
          key chain                     F. J. Loudin            January 9, 1894
          lantern                       Michael C. Harvey       August 19, 1884
          lawn mower                    L. A. Burr              May 19, 1889
          lawn sprinkler                J. W. Smith             May 4, 1897
          lemon squeezer                J. Thomas White         December 8, 1893
          lock                          W. A. Martin            July 23, 18--
          lubricating cup               Ellijah McCoy           November 15, 1895
          lunch pail                    James Robinson          1887
          mail box                      Paul L. Downing         October 27, 1891
          mop                           Thomas W. Stewart       June 11, 1893
          motor                         Frederick M. Jones      June 27, 1939
          peanut butter                 George Washington Carver    1896
          pencil sharpener              J. L. Love              November 23, 1897
          phone transmitter             Granville T. Woods      December 2, 1884
          record player arm             Joseph Hunger Dickenson January 8, 1819
          refrigerator                  J. Standard             June 14, 1891
          riding saddles                W. D. Davis             October 6, 1895
          rolling pin                   John W. Reed            1864
          shampoo headrest              C. O. Bailiff           October 11, 1898
          spark plug                    Edmond Berger           February 2, 1839
          stethoscope                   Imhotep                 Ancient Egypt
          stove                         T. A. Carrington        July 25, 1876
          straightening comb            Madam C. J. Walker      Approx 1905
          street sweeper                Charles B. Brooks       March 17, 1890
          thermostat control            Frederick M. Jones      February 23, 1960
          traffic light                 Garrett Morgan          November 20, 1923
          tricycle                      M. A. Cherry            May 6, 1886
          typewriter                    Burridge & Marshman     April 7, 1885

    • Michael Stewart Michael Stewart United States says:

      Don't forget Babbage's difference engine project. His design  was the first  stored program computer..

  64. informed citizen informed citizen United States says:

    It's scientific facts at work here. Kind of hard to argue with what's been proven to be true OVER AND OVER. The white and asian population needs to wake up and realize that they are throwing away hard earned tax dollars trying to make africans intellectually equal.

  65. So?
    Elise Harris Elise Harris United States says:

    So what? What difference does it really make? Seriously.

    Move on to something that really matters

  66. Elise Harris Elise Harris United States says:

    I feel so sorry for people who wear their presumed high IQ's like a badge to defend & protect. People like that just like to sit & talk about how superior they are, exaggerating the importance of it, while the rest of humanity just goes about living life to the fullest and having a good time.

    IQ is one very small factor in determining someone's success and contributions in life. You can have he highest IQ in the world and still be a socially inept loser going nowhere. Just look at Chris Langan.

    • 1
      Let Wawa Let Wawa Germany says:

      That's because success is a function of luck, not of intelligence. Like in poker, you can hold a pair of Aces, but still lose. So, there is only a correlation between intelligence and success.

      Business works on the Winner Takes All model and if you are not in the right place at the right time, no matter how smart you are you will have little chance of winning. There are more guys like Bill Gates in the world, but they are unknown. Look up "survivorship bias" if you are interested. It's an interesting topic.

      A good book would be Fooled by Randomness.

      In fact, you can go further and think about all the smart people who didn't make it because they died in a car accident or of cancer on their way of success.

      The genetically best must have a lot of luck to come out on top. His odds are still the greatest of all, but success is not guaranteed.

  67. Boby Brady Boby Brady United States says:

    I will make this very simple, you can not argue it. African Americans and Australians Aboriginal's  are the only two races that never developed a written language nor a numerical system.

    So what does that tell you.

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      The documentary "Before Babel" traces all of the worlds languages back to AFRICA. We can argue about Egyptians being Black if your one of the" i believe Egyptians were uber tan White peoples" but the Nubians created their own script called Meroetic. Ethiopians created several written scripts as well & both creatd their own numerical system. You forget  Europeans use Hindu/Arabic numbers & their alphabet can be traced back to Egypt.& north western Europe were in the dark ages until Moorish conquest

  68. Evan Pickell Evan Pickell United States says:

    Because I don't want to be given the injustice of being considered a racist, which is god forbid the worst thing since the holocaust; I would suggest Ethnicity has no role in who is superior. White men went to the moon, carried the industrial revolution on its back, dropped nuclear bombs, invented democracy, invented computers, air planes, skyscrapers. Names like aristotle, von brown, plato, albert einstein, sir isaac newton stick out but African Americans are just less socially evolved to the mental aspect of reasoning.

  69. Andrew N Andrew N South Africa says:

    I really don't see what all the fuss is about. The human brain comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes. It's a scientific fact that black people have brains that are on average 5 cubic inches smaller than that of white people. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    We here in South Africa have implemented affirmative action to help compensate for the average lower brain size and resulting lower IQ.
    Nobody needs to be proud that they have larger brains and nobody needs to feel inferior about having smaller brains. What we are doing, is placing a handicap on ourselves so that our black brothers can have a better chance at making a success of life.

    It's like a horse race where the better horses are made to carry more weight. This makes for a proper race. You can just imagine how boring it would be if the same horses always won the race.

  70. Andrew N Andrew N South Africa says:

    Anybody that feels the need to state the value of their IQ is most likely not telling the truth.

    If you have a high IQ then people will be able to see this from what you write.

  71. Shaoxiong Zhu Shaoxiong Zhu People's Republic of China says:

    As a Chinese citizen lived in States for a couple of years, I did see several interesting social and political phenomena there.

    If we check the racial components of electors voting for Republicans or the Democrats, we could possibly see a slightly (yet statistically significant) difference. A government focusing more on complementary social welfare might gain more supports from African Americans (who possess a higher tendency to live relying on social walfare), which, again, is not under fully studied.

    Just only thoughts: African Americans might need to think more on themselves just as John Kennedy said "what did they do for the Country."

    • Mengjiao Zhang Mengjiao Zhang United States says:

      Supporting social walfare does not necessarily mean hoping to live relying on social walfare!

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      Wow most of the responses on this thread amaze me. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with American history & even if you were its possible you still would not be aware of Afro American contributions. Sir we have literally built this country. The labor of Blacks in bondage poured 100's of trillions of dollars into the US economy over the 250 years of US slavery..  Today we a pour 1.5 trillion every year into the US economy. We are the only race besides Whites that have faught in every war this country has had & the 1st to die for the American  Revolution was a Black man named Crispus Attucks. My father was in the Navy & my Grand Father faught in WW2. Despite our efforts to amalgamate the very government has worked against us to qoute Nixon & his cabninet men

      "Haldeman, referring to the President as "P," said: "P emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to"
      this is right after the so called Civil Rights victories.  Victories that helped lift racist immigration policies that have helped Asians enter this country on visa or other wise. So when you quote Kennedy as if to question what Blacks have done for this country "you have insulted me & the shoalin temple"

  72. Jonathan Schell Jonathan Schell United States says:

    You believe that non-sense that modern comforts are owed to the expertise and ingenuity of blacks. You read a Facebook post that spewed some outrageous claims and you instantly associated them with fact. I, a person with some sense, did some further reading into the claims and easily dismissed ~75% of them as being inaccurately flat out lies to perpetuate ignorance.

  73. Ken Brown Ken Brown Australia says:

    Actually black people didn't invent ANY of those things that you have mentioned, some of them were refinements on earlier white inventions and the rest are just complete fabrications. I would very much like to see the source of this 'information'.

  74. Pixie Whistler Pixie Whistler United States says:

    Being black, I want to say this isn't true, but I think that it is. However, I don't feel that it is dependent on genetics as this study will have you think.

    Having been educated in American private schools (therefore associating mostly with whites, asians, and other black kids educated in the same system), I can say that I received a radically different education than black kids in American public schools. Our reading levels were higher, our math levels were higher, and typically SAT scores were higher. IQ tests look at critical thinking skills and I think white education may cater more to that.

  75. Sean Nelson Sean Nelson United States says:

    You're first sentence...
    "Whites hate blacks because the so-called bible says so"
    That is not true. Whites don't hate blacks. I was brought up to believe that we are all brothers and sisters in the eyes of the lord.
    Also, I don't see why the skin color of an inventor is relevant. Hell, all of the so called "data" in the above article is suspect to say the least.
    The paper that they site for the above article was written by J Phillipe Rushton. Rushton's research methods were ridiculed by the scientific community at large. He was considered a racist quack by most. The only people who endorsed his work were funded by the same people Rushton was. Many didn't even consider what he did to be science. Robert Sussman, an evolutionary anthropologist and the editor in-chief of American Anthropologist, explained why the journal did not accept ads for Rushton's 1998 book:
    "This is an insidious attempt to legitimize Rushton’s racist propaganda and is tantamount to publishing ads for white supremacy and the neo-Nazi party. If you have any question about the validity of the "science" of Rushton’s trash you should read any one of his articles and the many rebuttals by ashamed scientists"

  76. Cookie Monsta Cookie Monsta United States says:

    This entire chain is truly disheartening! The reason humanity will end up exhausting the worlds resources & killing ourselves off when the repercussions of doing so are obvious is because we simply haven't evolved enough emotionally to work together! To put aside our insecurities & fears & embrace the idea that happiness doesn't come from anything one can purchase or take from others but from within.

    I've known a few people who would never be accused of being a genius but still they accomplished great things & exceeded all expectations. I've watched one of the smartest & most talented people to ever cross my path kill herself slowly from drug addiction. It doesn't matter who is smarter or stronger or better...those are sad little warm & fuzzy's for us to cling to! The only things that matter are love, happiness & community & no matter what the IQ test results say...anyone disputing that  fact is missing the forest thru the trees!

    What horrible things people of all races, IQ's, educations & backgrounds have said to one another in this thread! I can't understand how anyone could say some of these things to another person! How anyone could truly believe there is anything uplifting to be found by putting down others? How can we claim to be the evolved or enlightened inhabitants of this planet when we are the only ones destroying it & fighting wars amongst ourselves? All around us animals with much lower IQ's live in harmony with one another & their surroundings! IQ's have steadily risen throughout our existence but humankind is reportedly more depressed than ever.

    Its a sad display of intelligence to use it in attacking others when only embracing, accepting & helping them will bring us joy! I'm more buddhist than christian but I do appreciate christ's message & I don't recall him judging anyone...let alone measuring their worth based on the speed their neurons fire or their score on some test!

    May we all find peace & a place where these discussions no longer have legs. May the ideal that anyone is better than another be relegated to the history books & may it truly confuse our children's children how we could live so blindly for so long

  77. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    Again so called academics are taking numbers and reading what they wish into them. One can only assume gentics is the primary cause for low IQ. No one has found an IQ gene only Genes that seem to effect IQ and no one has found that these genes are lesser in number in Blacks or other sub tropical peoples.  European and Asians have bigger brains and have bigger eyeballs as well. In fact all people living in and or native to northern latitudes have bigger brains and eyeballs. You can see this dynamic with in the populations living at varying latitudes in Europe. As you travel north in latitude studies show Northern Europeans have bigger eyeballs and brains than Southern Europeans.

    This being the case the people with the biggest brains and eyeballs are Eskimos or the Inuit people who live near the North Pole. European and Asian brains are bigger in the areas dealing with sight. During the ice age it was dark and difficult to see. Also today due to sunlight refraction it is more difficult to see in Northern latitudes.

    Neanderthal man who was an early cousin to homo sapiens (us) evolved during the ice age and had a bigger brain than any human.
    We can tell from early Neanderthal artifacts they were less intelligent than homo sapiens archaic or homo sapiens sapiens (us/modern man) so their bigger brains did not equate to a higher intelligence. In fact it appears to have been substantially lower Europeans and Asians like Neanderthal developed in the northern hemisphere during ice age climatic changes. Both Asians and Europeans evolved bigger eyes and optic nerve areas to see better and developed bigger brains to deal with the extra sight sensory input
    So now we understand “why” Europeans and Asians have bigger brains. The next question is does this correlate with their inherently having a higher IQ than Africans?

    The two areas of the brain Asians and Europeans have increased size and have more grey matter dedicated to are the visual cortex  & lateral ventricles . Again note this extra brain matter is dedicated to analyzing increased visual input. The lateral ventricles  are filled with cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) which bathes and cushions the brain and spinal cord . The lateral ventricles do not consist of any grey or white matter.

    Cognitive functions such as -executive functions, planning, abstract reasoning, impulse control, sustained attention and insight are not carried out in these areas. These functions are carried out primarily in the frontal lobe were the Orbitofrontal Cortex is located.

    African Americans in fact have a larger orbito-frontal cortex  than Caucasians.

    So for those who feel they have this definitive proof of some type of inate gentic upper hand I say you must look into all of the possible stimuli that could effect IQ (such as economic status,health and the psycholigical effects of systemic racism) and look for the causation of the numerical data they tout so often

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      There have been scientific Nobel laureates from very poor backgrounds (Jewish, whites, Asians, even races plagued with poverty like hispanics), yet NOT A SINGLE BLACK MAN awarded with a scientific nobel prize.

      So, where the environment explanation stays after this verifiable fact?

      If there is a veru accepted fact that no matter how hard white men train, you wouldn't beat people like Usain Bolt or other black athletes.

      Training could make white atletes very good, beating most of black athletes that won't have equivalent training, but they have no chance agains similarly trained black men.

      Why this analogy is considered invalid regarding intellect? Isn't it obvious that facts shows up that with the best trainging possible, black scientists can become very good, but not being a match to Nobel-laureate level brains?

      Isn't the brain as biological as athlete muscles, why would it have to be an exception to the rules that shows that some races are better suited for some tasks?

      Could you answer these questions please?

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        Before you read my whole response to your question let me 1st ask you a question. I see you seem to be of Hispanic origins do you feel the Hispanics average IQ of 88 to be largely genetic in origin or a result of a people from a socially disadvantaged group not having the same access to education as Whites?

        Some say Hispanics may never reach equal IQ levels with Whites

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        Sorry for the 2 part response as I am typing from a tablet. Whites & other ethnic groups seem to easily minimize or dismiss the severity of the forms of racism suffered by Black Africans. One crucial factor is that the other groups you have mentioned all have intact cultures & none have survived 300 plus years of chattel slavery, American Apartheid ie: Jim Crow & systemic socially entrenched racism. Other groups may have risen from economic hardship but the discrimination they suffered has been fundamentally different thus the environment the rose from was different.  You cant compare an immigrant Jew who is raised in a tradition of reading the Torah in Hebrew & has a healthy culture to an African American who for one comes from a legacy were simply knowing how to read could cost you your life or loss of limb. African Americans live in a system where the very government has taken action to destroy them.
        To quote:


        This is the racist system Blacks live under today.
        As for your comparisons of Athletic muscles to the brain this is a common fallacy.  Yes environment plays a part in both but the brain contains human consciousness & is thee most complicated orginism in the known universe.

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Why would the athletic muscles be an unfair comparison? Arent such muscles BIOLOGICAL and influenced by GENETICS, the very same as the brain is? Of course environment help, but genetics will give you a LIMIT regarding potential. With great environment and effort, you can improve up to such potential limit, that's why no white athlete can compete with the best black athletes, a top-notch white 100 m runner, can beat 99% of black runners, but he won't have a chance against top black athletes in the league of Usain Bolt, no matter how hard the white guy trains from childhood. Tell me, is this false? If this happens with muscles, why do you think it's impossible to happen with brain? Isn't brain also biological? Why would nature would have to be 'fair'? could you explain?

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            Again IQ is an aspect of mental functioning.  You cannot arrive at an answer for IQ scores by studying biology alone. You must understand & take in the psychological effects of socio economic conditions.  Also your insistence that Hispanics suffer worse enviromental conditions is misguided.  All Hispanics are not illegals as if this alone would count for your low IQ scores. Better enviromental conditions (ie: less racism)correlate with higher IQ. As for athletic prowess being compared to intellect this would only make sence if we thought with our biceps

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              In EVERYTHING there is a part where GENETICS plain a great part, end environment the other. Why would here be different? you still don't answer.

              Why it is totally verified that no matter how great the environment is, no amount of training can make white, asians, hispanics or jews athletes compete with black athletes.

              And in nobel laureates and field medals WE ARE SEEING A VERY SIMILAR SCENARIO.

              No matter hwat environment is given to black students, they can't match the very top.

              Environment can be only part of the problem, but there is no explanation for ZERO scientific nobel laurreates, fields medal winners or 2600+ chess players.

  78. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    Unlike some assume THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL BLACK NOBEL LAUREATES not just peace prize winners (see link below) aslo I will again ask Javier Perez as it seems I have difficulty commenting & responding on this thread

    Some say Hispanics may never reach equal IQ levels with Whites

    Also comparing the genetic heratibility of athletic prowess to that of IQ is a fallacy in its self. The brain is the seat of consciousness & psycho social stimuli effect the mind far more so than mere muscle. Hopefully my previous response is allowed but if not ill give a synopsis.  No group has endured the 300 plus years of chattel slavery, American Apartheid ie Jim Crow & the systemic ingrained racism that is apart of American culture. Its like equating what the Americans did to the Japanese Americans In WW2 to what the Germans did to the Jews. Both are crimes but one pales in comparison to the other


    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      Do you realize that your link of "List_of_black_Nobel_Laureates" CONFIRMS MY POINT?

      Did you read what I wrote? specially when I say "awarded with a SCIENTIFIC nobel prize. "? Which of the prizes shown in the link are SCIENTIFIC?

      About hispanics in US, do you realize that they usually face a worse fate than blacks, because, for a start, most of them started as ILLEGAL citizens?

      Are you aware that there are statistically confirmed, more weathy blacks than hispanics weathy people? yet how come no black has nearby that level of success regarding science (being awarded a Nobel prize or a Fields medal)?

      Same in classical music (the most complex music by far), are you aware that  even indigenous people, living in the wild for ages,
      were capable of composing music like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sez0z4RTP1U (look for bolivian baroque in amazon, for more), take also Jaime Laredo also as another example unmatched by black people in classical music.

      With millions far more wealthy than the family of SCIENTIFIC nobel laureates like Alvarez, Molina, or maestro Laredo in classical music,
      or the indigenous people in south america during the jesuit missions. How come no black equivalents in such fields?

      Do you get my point now, with these examples and facts?

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        Jazz is far more complex than classical & it wasn't just mimicked like your Hispanic examples did with classical Blacks created this art form from scratch. As for Nobel prize winners we have 16 in 6 categories & we are working on that scientific one. As for why we don't have one yet I point to my previous comment alluding to the current & past several centuries of economic & educational discrimination.  Now how about you answer my question about the low average Hispanic iQ. Do you believe thats in your genes or is there someother dynamic?

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Jazz is "far more complex than classical"? You have to be very ignorant of music to make such claim.

          There are TONS of classically trained musicians who amuse jazz fans in concerts, despite they mainly play classical.

          Examples? you can check the german pianist Alexander schimpf as a small example, or violinists Joshua Bell, Roy Sonne.

          However, how often do you see jazz musicians being able to play top notch classical music with such level of proficiency?

          About hispanics low iq, as I told you, the low average (better than blacks, despite living in worse conditions than blacks, as they are illegals for a start) doesn't avoid hispanics winning  SCIENTIFIC nobel prizes, or being found within top notch mathematicians.

          For instance, the mayans had math and/or astronomy MORE ADVANCED THAN THE EUROPEANS OF THEIR TIME (same amazing stuff found with some amazonic tribes less known than mayans), while the black NEVER were able to show that level in math. Jaime Escalante showed the path to raise up for illegal latins, when trained, they beat up whites in national scores. Too bad he got expelled because he was a problem for unions.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            You offer up your opinion as if its fact. The fact is when ever the question is asked "what is the most complex form of music" Jazz is always mentioned as 1st or 2nd. The fact Jazx was created by African Americans points to our innate genius. What form of music has your people created from scratch.  All latin music has African roots. Also the struggles of being a foriegner pales to that of systemic racism.  Africans live in a world where even a person from a group with a mean IQ of 88 seeks to belittle our acomplishments. A system that teaches IQ is an inherent biological factor to explain away the results foul cards it has intentionally dealt to a people. A racist system that teaches this hierarchy is biological & has brain washed other victims of its inequality into agreeing they are inherently less intelligent than Whites by comforting them with the false hood they are inherently smarter than Blacks. This is foolishness.

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              Alexander Schimpf, Josh Bell or other classical musicians capable of play jazz at world-class level are not opinions, they are facts.

              You still fail to show me pure jazz musicians who can play world-class level of proficiency the most complex classical music, and play it in the cathedrals of classical music.

              I showed you examples, you fail to show me your example.

              The other part is a very long technical discussion, who could be far bigger than the article, here, and would demand you to be a conservatoire graduate to  understand it. But you can understand the players comparison in a more easy way.

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                Just for shits and giggles though
                Keith Jarrett, Benny Goodman, Dave Brubeck, Chick Corea, Joachim Kuhn, Ron Carter, Richie Beirach, Eddie Daniels, Bud Shank, Wynton Marsalis (who won Grammy's in classical and Jazz in the same year),Branford Marsalis -i'll stop hear but it clear you have avery limited knowledge of music history or you would not have made the rediculous assumption jazz artist have never played classical nor have played it well. Also the fcat is Jazz was an art form created by Afro- Americans. Hispanics have created no original form of music as Latin music has stromg African roots & even so only Jazz is compared to classical in its complexity. You are argueing Hispanics  can play a European form of music  better than  Africans can play a highly complex form of music they have created from scratch. This is false. The fact you were unaware of the myriad of Jazz musicians who have played classical well enough to sell millions of records and win Grammies for both in the same year leads me to assume the “very big long technical discussion” you allude to would be full of the same holes and lacking the same depth of knowledge you’ve just displayed –poorly played Javier…poorly played

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  Marsalis, Beirach or Kuhn and most of the ones who jazz players who can play classical  were CLASICALLY TRAINED, even since childhood.

                  If they are clasically trained musicians who switch to jazz, of course they will still be able to play classical, when it was their primary training, ins't it?

                  That's why I talked about PURE CLASSICAL MUSICIANS, ones with only jazz training, whithout being clasically trained, being able to play classical, like what you see when clasical musicians can grab jazz and play it beautifully.

                  BTW, the only case I remember of a musician with zero clasical training being able to play classical (and jazz also) was PACO DE LUCIA, and he was a flamenco guitarist and composer, not a jazz musician.

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Forgot another example CHESS.

          Brainy ethnic groups like whites or jews shine at Chess, yet hispanics had one world champion, Jose Raul Capablanca.

          Today, there are top notch (above 2600 elo) hispanic Chess players like Julio Granda, Lenier Dominguez, Lazaro Bruzon, Fernando Peralta, Rafael Leitao, etc. While on the black side, the black gold standard is Maurice Ashley, elo 2446 (a VERY long way from the 2600 elite).

          Isn't this another clear example of what I'm talking about?

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            All of the chess gm's youve quoted are from Europe or Latin American countries with very good chess programs. Maurice Ashley is from Jamaica one of the worlds poorest countries who never had a gm play there until Maurice Ashley did. You continually point to examples of people who come from superior enviroments.

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        en.m.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_composers_of_African_descent here is a list of Black classical music composers.
        again the 100 meter example is moot. We are talking about cognitive ability. This envolves consciousness. Its not just mere muscle. Once consciousness is entered into the equation you just cant measure it like a bicep.
        As far as illegal immigrants facing a worst fate im sorry this is a fallacy. Immigrants still have their lanquage & culture.  Both are powerful psychological support systems. The fallacy in this whole IQ argument is that no psychological data is taken in when IQ is clearly an aspect of mental function.  Numbers & data are easier to work with than psycho analytics but you simply cannot attribute numbers to an aspect of the mind. To do so will always be simply guess work

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        1st Id like to correct the categories 3 out of 6 were won by African Americans ir Black Africans & Sir William Arthur Lewis won the nobel prize for Economic Sciences ie: SCIENCE. We can talk physics & chemestry in the near future if you like but  I also dont see the point of admitting there are more Black Millionares than Hispanics millionares. I mean one need be intelligent to aquire a fortune. As for IQ & real intelligence Two of the highest IQ processors work in bars for a living [other peoples bars]

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          They also call psychology a science, but we are talking about REAL SCIENCE, the one who require EXTREMELY HIGH ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY that goes beyond the league of average humans.

          And again, I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            This part of the problem
            People are trying to quantify something that is an aspect of the mind ie: mental capabilities with out using the science that is a study of the mind ie: psychology

            People are trying to use so called hard sciences(this is what you probably were trying to say when you said “real” science) such as biology and statistics to quantify an aspect of mental function.
            This is idiotic.
            This is like trying to guess the speed of light by using the science of geology. Using the wrong discipline will never result in a right answer. All genetics and stats can do is tell you the results in this matter not the causation. We are looking for the causation. No scientific study has been able to point to any gene that correlates with lower IQ that also distributed amongst one racial groups as opposed to another For example: the gene that produces an enzyme called deiodonase-2 is not more prevalent in Blacks, Latinos or other low scoring groups.  
            Again this is NOT a matter of physical prowess. It’s a matter of MENTAL capability.  
            In my opinion in the matter of IQ scores If your not using any data from psycho-social studies your not looking for the real answer. By just using data from so called hard science the researchers are just looking for information that justifies the answer they want

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              What part of "I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL."  do you still fail to understand?

              What about Physics or Chemistry Nobel laureates? About Fields medal laufreates?

              How can 'environment' be the only excuse, when you can find laureates from very poor backgrounds and that suffered harsh conditions or even persecutions?

              Of the MILLIONS of middle-class or wealthy black kids in past decades, failed to produce ONE scientific Nobel laureate or Fields medalist, and you still say environment is the only possible cause?

              And you never answered, why would nature have to be 'fair'?

              If nature is unfair (predators kill other animals, naturally gifted athletes that can become superstars with proper training, people more handsome than others from birth), why would top-notch mental abstraction capability would be the exception? whern will you explain it?

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                I never said nature should be fair. In fact the fact Africa has two of the biggest deserts in the world, no domestic crops or animals native to its habitat & probably the harshest living conditions in the world & Eurasia & the Middle East are where domestic crops & animals are native to, fertile river areas along with the best climatic zones to live in is an unfair aspect of nature
                Again im stating your arguments using natural atheletic prowess to state mental prowess is inherited & displayed in the same manner is incorrect. No one is saying genes play no part in academic achievement or that environment is the sole factor
                What I am saying their is no genetic component that causes Blacks or minorities such as Hispanics to score lower on IQ test
                what I am saying is that the extreme racist oppressive environment is the primary reason for Black under achievement & this negative environment is far more extreme & damaging than you realize or admit. Blacks have been barred from participating in education from the lowest to the highest levels. Hispanics especially non Mexicans have been far more accepted by White society than Blacks ever have. When Sidney Potier played in a movie where he dated a White woman it was banned in the Southern US but Ricky Ricardo a Hispanic immigrants was & starred as the husband of Lucille Ball on nnational tv for years. Blacks would lie & say they were Latin to get jobs in the 1960's & prior. This is the depth of the discrimination Blacks have & still suffer. Below is a link describing some of the issues Black scientist & mathematicians have suffered.



                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  And I never denied environment play its part, but you can't deny the genetic role in EVERYTHING regarding human characteristics.

                  There have been millions and millions of kids from wealthy familes, yet such mass fail to produce ONE single scientific Nobel laureate or ONE field medalist or ONE chess prodigy in the 2600 area. How come you would still insist to blame only the enviroenment when you find cases like the ones I mentioned before, some of them coming from rural villages and living in extreme poverty in childhood?
                  Again, explain this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Cori

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      Why my latest comments were removed?
      FWIW, the list of Nobel laureates you present just confirm my point, check your own list, can you confirm the absence of SCIENTIFIC nobel laureates?

      Besides, is it false what I told of my 100 meter competition example?

      Please ANSWER DIRECTLY and don't remove my posts.

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        I can understand whites & Asians being cocky about the IQ numbers seemingly to point to some inherent superior intelligence but why is a Hispanic with a mean IQ of 88 trying to look down on Black IQ scores individually even if your an outlier im personaly more intelligent than you so why try to go there? Please dont ignore or dance around the question.  Also why would I erase your responses & how could I? I dont control this website.  Not to sharp are we Javier?

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          I gave you examples of Hispanics winning top notch scientific prizes (even in science olympiads), or the mayans or ancient tribes in south america showing advanced scientific understanding. Black have never shown such level in science, despite having a lot of rich black people worlwide.

          While at the same time, they are unbeatable in 100 meter running, showing the exact opposite scenario (other races, inclusing hispanics, being unable to compete at top level with blacks).

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Another thing I forgot, are you aware that, apart from being illegals, many of the kids taking IQ tests doesn't have english as their native language?

          Despite having high IQ in my childhood, I remember having wrong answers just because I didn't understand the questions. How impossible is that a similar thing happens to illegal citizens who are just having their first grasps at english language? Blacks doesn't have such 2 powerful barriers, yet they score lower in average.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            Until you can understand the
            Psychological advantages of having a fully functional culture and the disadvantages of institutional racism you will never arrive at a true answer in this matter. Also you still haven’t answered my question

            Is the low average IQ amongst Hispanics a result of genetics? Are your people doomed by the very laws of nature to have these low IQ’s.
            Why are you avoiding this question?
            Its simply do you believe this to be so or not?

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              The Exalante project at Garfield showed that with proper oportunities, hispanics could shine. And Scientific Nobel laureates also showed that.

              Blacks don't have the same example on their side. They don't have an Escalante making black students beat whites in advanced math, and they have ZERO scientific nobel laureates.

              They also don't have the mayans equivalent (mayans had more advanced math than the europeans of their time, same with some less known people in south america, the Moxos region).

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                I wrote this response before but it never appeared but I will write it again. Egypt, Nubia Axum & Kush in east Africa were some of the 1st & most complex civilizations on the planet. Egyptians built step pyramids like the Mayans then advanced to smooth sided pyramids which are far more difficult to build. Nubia excelled in Pyramid building as well all this long before the Mayans were thought of. In west Africa Timbuktu was a center for high learning & famous for this even in Europe. You have little to no knowledge of accurate Black or African history so you cant say what examples Blacks have of an "excelante" what I do no is African immigrants have the highest % of degress of any ethnic group. & this is a thread about innate IQ ability. You cant avoid my question by simply stating your only talking about Nobel Laureates. The very fact you allude to this indicates IQ is at the heart of your statement & you are indicating that Blacks inherently stupider than Hispanics & truthfully im mentally sparing with you with the proverbial hand tied behind my back. You are unable or unwilling to grip psycho social concepts & do not understand Black Africans are the original homo sapiens sapiens & humans haven't speciated to the point we would posses different mental potentials. All IQ scores fall along social enviromental lines. It just happens due to racism & other economic disparities IQ corresponds to race & economic status. Whites seeking to justify their position look to identify some natural genetic origin for this disparity that falls along racial lines. This type of gene distribution does not exist. Were there are genes that correlate with lower IQ these genes are not found in higher %'s amongst Blacks, Hispanics or other low IQ scoring groups. So in ending since you apparently believe Blacks are less intelligent than Hispanics due to genetics do you believe Hispanics are less intelligent than Whites due to genetics?  Simple question because the Nobel Laureates you harp on haven't effected your 88 mean IQ score & I have & can point to bbrilliant Black scientist who work for Nasa & other feilds of science who have done so inspite of the systemic racism that is far more extreme than youre European Spanish, South American nobel prize winners have ever suffered. Economic hardships do not equate to economic hardships plus systemic racism. Your very post is an example of the attitudes Blacks must face daily. Im argueing with I guy I know im obviously smarter than that thinks his people are inherently smarter than mine. This is ridiculous. People avoid studying data that didagrees with thier world view. If you truly seek answers to this IQ phenomenon I suggest you read "The new jim crow" & study about the psychological effects of racism on IQ just to try to get a more balanced view.....again simply answer my question & you need not hear from me again. I simply want to hear what you have to say on the matter

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:







          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            You realize Hispanics are given IQ test in "SPANISH" the 2nd language barrier does not exist here. It rarely exist in school scores (except English aptitude) because 2nd language Hispanic students are given test in their native tongue

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              I explained this before, but didn't get posted.

              In my case, my test was taken in english, and the same in friend's cases some decades ago.

              And some trasnlated test we took back then had several mistakes that made the questions harder to comprehend (in some case worse that a current google translation).

              Even people could declare themselves english speakers, and they'd even use it in daily life, but there are some important nuances regarding a non-native language that people are not aware off, until they take the test.

              It's not the same at all to take a real native language test, native from the start, not translated, and also, not the same if you take it in english when you use on daily basis, but it's not your native language.

  79. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    Ive been explaining this to you in hopes you gain a deeper understanding of the psyco social & social economic effects of racism on the Afro American population. Perhaps ive not been clear enough or have put this in terms you can understand.

    1st. The oppression most Hispanics suffer is not as acute as it is for Afro Americans despite your believing this.
    The psychological effects of systemic & culturally ingrained racism negate or negatively impact any of the economic prosperity Black millionaires have you have  alluded to. Ie: racism hinders academic achievement in spite of economic achievement
    It is known amongst sociologist and psychologist the effects of slavery and the varied levels of systemic culturally ingrained racism on Afro Americans is extremely acute and destructive




    2nd(for the umpteenth time) Intellect is an aspect of consciousness & cannot be quantified by biology alone.
    There are no genes that correlate with negative  iQ that are distributed amongst Blacks or any other low scoring groups such as Hispanics in a higher frequency than Whites or Asians. Ie: nature is not the cause in this issue. As for Black athletic prowess we can go into varied theories for this but to say this concisely:
    Africans are the archetypical humans. All other so called races spring from
    All humans are technically the same underneath the skin and humans have not been around long enough to speciate ie: become different species
    Other peoples viewed as un athletic if subjected to the same environmental stimuli Africans have been subjected to potentially can develop superior athletic ability.
    For example Jeremy Lin a 2nd or 3rd generation Chinese American raised on an "American diet" full of calories became one of the best NBA players in the league

    3rd It is well known racism exist & systems such as apartheid & jim crow still have long lasting effects on the economic & academic status of Blacks. This was an incredibly brutal system whos effects cannot go understated.
    It  is well known economic status effect health and nutrition which in turn effect brain function
    It is well known that White supremacy has systematically held minorities back
    We know with out a doubt economics and racism effect economic and academic achievement all though we may disagree on the extent but I pretty sure we can agree racism, classism and economic disparity exist.
    The Rusthon study and others are theories lacking the proper research methods

    These are your reasons you dont have a Black chess gm in the 2600 range or Blsck Nobel prize winners in science besides economics
    Now as to my question. When you allude to Nobel Prize winners & Chess ratings you by proxy are referring to IQ
    are Hispanics genetically inferior IQ wise to Whites? Your excellantě examples do not answer this question as your groups mean IQ is 88. I could point to outliers amongst Blacks such as youngest mensa member www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...bama-David-Cameron.html  
    It seems you seem to readily use an environmental excuse for yourself but deny it for Blacks. Everyone has set backs & obstacles but the truth is some people simply have more. Levels of oppression vary and they differ. I grew up around gangs & drugs but I wouldn't trade my life with a kid in Liberia. Today Blacks suffer primarily from a social-psychological oppression. Again this effects the mind and intellect or IQ is an aspect of the mind and one would need an un hindered intellect to develop 2600 chess ratings and win Nobel prizes for science.  I do hope this is clear to you Javier. I do not expect you to change your world view but I do expect someone of your seeming intelligence to look at and study the research ive laid before you.

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      Again and again, I'm talking about WORLD-CLASS  ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY, sometimes measured in IQ test, but more inportant, measured in verifiable ACHIEVEMENTS (like a scientific Nobel laureate, a Fields Medal winner, or a 2600+ chess GM).

      The black kid prodigy is not a serius thing, child  prodigies are dime a dozen in other races, but most of them dissapear (many of them are just trained monkeys doing tricks, without real superior intellect).

      What is more interesting to see is which of such prodigies develop into a BRILLIANT ADULTS (like former prodigies Julio Granda and Jorge Cori developed, form rural very poor and rural background, in a very racist society like the peruvian one).

      And again, environment can not be the only excuse, cause there are MILLIONS of black kids from wealthy families (in conditions far better than Granda or Cori) yet they fail to produce ONE scientific nobel laureate or Field Medalist or Chess elite player, I{m talking about JUST ONE.

      How come black are able to produce top notch athletes, even in expensive and elitist sports, yet fail to produce ONE top notch analytical mind in fields far less elitists? (or will you say science or chess are more elitist than tennis, who produced players like Arthur Ahse or Yannick Noah back then, when tennis was far more elitist than today)?

      Again, I don't say envirinment won't affect intellectual development, I just say you can't blame it only on environment. It is you who want to put 100% of the blame into environment.

      Apart from this article we discuss, you could start reading other peer-reviewed info like this: www.sciencedirect.com/.../S0160289606001395

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        You repeat questions ive answersed & answered quite consisely. You state a native Peruvian suffers racism in his or her native Peru? Seems your just being argumenitive. The youngest mensa member is no mere dime a dozen prodigy but again are Hispanics genetically inferior IQ wise to Europeans. You can simply say yes or no to make it easier on your self. I wouldn't provide peered reviewed information when it seems you have not read my peer reviewed information.  Quid pro quo Javier but 1st your answer would be appreciated. Ive answered your question albeit you may not like or agree with the answers but nevertheless ive answered them. My question requires but a two or three letter word. We can carry on if you like but a direct answer would be appreciated. So again are Hispanics genetically inferior in respects to IQ.

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Hugh Cipher,

          First, when you say "ou state a native Peruvian suffers racism in his or her native Peru? "

          OF COURSE THEY DO, and it isn't a rare thing. Indigenous people suffered racism.

          Do a very quick confirmation, most (above 80%) of peruvian population is indigenous, yet when you see peruvian TV, only white-like actors appear. OTOH, in the US TV, you see plenty of black actors, at least matching the % of black population in the US (if not more).

          And this happens in all latinamerica. So, being native doesn't grant you to get exempt from severe racism.

          About the mensa kid, please learn some facts. IQ test can not be taken seriously at very young age. AND scores tend to be higher when younger than in adulthood, cause you can get more Edge. For instance, Guiness record holder Von Savant had 228 in her teens, now in adulthood he has a little more of 180. So, a kid having 141 (even we'd accept it as a valid test) would not be something that impressive, case it only says that he is 41% better than the average of his age, 200+ and we'd be talking. And again, prodigies are dime a dozen. What is important is which of such prodigies develop into brilliant adults.

          And I wouldn't have any problem admitting we hispanics have some kind of genetic burden, cause my PERSONAL IQ and personal achievements are far ahead of whites or jews averages.

          My point was that, unlike blacks, what gives hispanics al least benefit of the doubt, is that, at least sometimes, hispanics showed capability to beat the top notch of whites jews and asians, in fields that demand extremely high abstraction capability (real science or chess in my examples), something not seen in black in recent history.

          Even the mayan example is not equivalent to the egypt example, cause there is not real certainity about the ethnicity of egyptians, and it was so long ago, so it's difficult to verify, AND blacks have not reproduced again such supposed level of achievement (being capable of getting to the top) in science, math or astronomy.

          While with mayans or Moxo inhabitants, there is no way of uncertainity, cause their civilization was isolated from Europe, when they developed their math and science, ahead of the europeans of their time. And such hispanics have repated achievements in the examples I showed you before.

          And again, it is you who fail to explain, given the fact that there are MILLIONS of black kids from wealthy families raised decades ago, ¿how come there are examples of blacks getting to the top even in very elitists sports, yet we have ZERO blacks getting to the elite in science or chess, when such intellectual  fields were and are far less elitists than sports like tennis?

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            It is very sad you actually feel your people have a genetic burden. Devote some study to the psychological and social effects of discrimination on your own peoples. The racism and color bias with in your own culture. Were you see a genetic burden I see a people discriminated against and whos countries are not as well economically developed as Europe’s or Asia's. A people oppressed but less oppressed than Black Africans so you see them with an over all  2 to 3 pt higher IQ average. A people who have achieved academic accolades but usually its their more European members who have achieved these accolades. I dont see this as genetic based but as culturally and society based. The more European one looks the better they are treated through out life. This affects ones life tremendously. Extrapolate this across a whole ethnic group and we will see the type of results we see in Hispanic populations.
            You are happy to admit genetic inferiority because a few of your group members have mere trophies (nobel prizes)?
            Do your own self a favor and eliminate all of the environmental factors that effect you people before you so readily drink the White supremacist kool-aide. Then you can return to a conversation with me with a clear and un colonized state of mind and view of this phenomenon  

            If i was ever angry at you I no longer am....I feel sadness for you hombre de Quechua pelu

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              When you say "It is very sad you actually feel your people have a genetic burden."

              I answer you THE TURTH DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A FAIRY TALE!

              Are you aware that DEATH is an horrible fact of reality? It is far more horrible than unfairness regarding intellect celing, isn't it?

              Why a lot of unfairness is accepted easily (death, hunger, native athletic potential that you can't teach, etc.) yet you feel so offended by something so trivial like difference in intelligence ceiling?

          • ?
            crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

            you need to learn some facts lol. mensa munda case can be taken seriously. GENE EXPRESSION doesn’t go through drastic changes when you get older lol. what happens is you go through puberty and your environment starts to change which can lead to a decrease in iq scores. plus he’s not the only outlier. anthony johnson, etc


            do you ever consider that blacks turn to sports because they see it as economic opportunities? you do know how stereotypes can affect certain people right? they might feel like they have to act a certain way or be a certain way to get approval.

            www.google.ca/.../31-highly-influential-african-american-scientists it’s funny  how you will go through leaps and bounds to try and discredit african achievements lol. you keep bringing up chess but how many blacks are even in the chess league in the first place? if anything it’s even more impressive because statistics show is that blacks come from LESS and are still able to achieve great feats

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Before you get angry in the Egytp's case, something to read voices.yahoo.com/...nes-confirm-that-12124134.html

          So, please, don't mix the ethnicity of the elite, with the ethnicity of the masses.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            Im not surprised you hold these beliefs about Kemet Nut ie: Egypt but this is a pdf of the latest dna testing done by  geneticist confirming Egypt had Black Africans through out its society and enlarge began as an African society
            dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01.pdf (pages 2 to 5 I recommend)
            This confirms what eye witness such as Herodotus have said about Egypt and which is that its people were Black Africans
            As for your Meso American ancestors the Olmecs, they more than likely were of mixed African decent the fact being Black Africans were in meso Ameica before Columbus
            and the Olmec artifacts speak for themselves and the fact that
            the 1st peoples in the Americas were Black Afro-Aboriginals
            lend weight to this theory on the Olmecs. As for Egypt again this debate is over. The DNA results are in and they agree with me and Herodotus

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              ALL HUMANS come from Africa, even Europeans. If you see that way, all of us will have Africans allell in a DNA test

              My point is that genetic traits  define a 'race': hair, eyes, skin, and in the issue discussed here, physical and intellectual average CEILING.

              Of course envirmonment plays, but also genes, like in EVERYTHING!!

              Why still fail to explain, why would inteliigence be an exception? if nature is by definition wild and unfaair, why would nature have to be 'fair' regarding intelligence?

              Forget everything else and ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, PLEASE.

              How come world class athletes have been produced in even very elitists sports (like tennis back then in my example), yet ZERO top-notch 'mental athletes' were produced in areas far less elitists as chess or hard science?

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                If “ALL HUMANS come from Africa, even Europeans. If you see that way, all of us will have Africans allell in a DNA test” is your response to scientist finding Egyptian royal mummy dna predominantly African then you for one have a poor understanding of genetics. If your understanding of genetics is this flawed then I surely would recommend you understand how gene traits are passed on better before I jump to blaming poor academic achievement genes distributed along racial lines

              • crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

                what lol? you just said there were no blacks in ancient egypt, he gives you proof that “everybody is african” lol if that’s the case then all these great feats can be attributed to black africans. do you know how genetics work? you and your great great great great great grandfather probably won’t share any genes lol

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            The iGENEA King Tut DNA results are a fraud. iGENEA never had actual dna samples of Tut but used information from a discovery channel documentary & filled in the blanks. They've made thousands by bilking Whites who are hopeful to be related to Tut. Theyve been cheated.  Unlike iGENEA the DNATribes results are academic peer reviewed & taken from actual royal mummies.

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              Cleopatra for insance, was macedonian.

              And the other point is that back then, science was almost unexistant. While in the mayans example is from far more recent times.

              And besides, how come such supposed achievement of blacks was not seen in more recent times?

              When will you answer this? how come you can find a¿black athletes getting to the top in very elitists sports, yet you find nothing in far less elitists fields like science and chess?

              And please don't missinterpret me, I'm not happy with unfairness at all, my point is trying to accept reality as accurate as possible, without the 'politically correct' bs.

              Accepting reality is a far better option for real help, IMO.

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                Cleopatra was a Ptolemy Greek Egyptian. She was undoubtedly of Greek/Macedonian heritage but her sister Arsinoe was recently found and scientist identified she was of African decent so Cleopatra may have been of mixed African blood also www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

                I applaud the Mayans past achievements. The fact they live on a tribal level (some call primitive) is proof civilizations rise and fall as the people who built them do.
                There are scores of brilliant Black scientist. Most definitely enough to prove their ancestors could  have built civilizations in the past . We need not point to Egypt alone but Nubia,Axum,Benin and Timbuktu are all examples of advanced Black African civilizations. The north western European who dominates the world today did not do so in ancient times. There are no pyramids in Berlin. No grand ancient BC period temples in Paris.
                The reasons why peoples build grand civilizations have more to do with environment than genes. This is why the meso American Indians built grand civilizations but their north American cousins did not-environment. I would watch guns germs and steel http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/ to get a better idea of this dynamic.
                As to your repeated question I will try to make it uber clear

                The racism Blacks suffer is far more acute and damaging than that of Hispanics
                Afro Americans culture was destroyed in slavery and have they have created a dysfunctional culture do to the oppressive dysfunctional conditions they suffer through
                Hispanics have a very intact and well grounded culture. This gives Hispanics a tool to fight psychological oppressions/racism that Blacks do not have
                Blacks have scores of highly intelligent scientist and mathematicians and  the fact Blacks only have one Nobel prize in hard science (economics) does not negate this
                The reality is that I know my self and have known many brilliant Blacks and this alone proves to me there is not gene or genes that are distributed amongst Blacks or Hispanics more so than others that cause low IQ
                Yes genes play a role in IQ but these genes are not distributed amongst one race more so than another
                There are far to many environmental factors that must be ruled out before one can jump to such conclusions as certain races are genetically inferior in terms of IQ

                As for athletic achievement again Blacks are not oppressed physically
                When laws forbade Blacks to play in sports you did not see these achievements
                Today the oppression is psychological, economic and environmental thus you see a lack of achievement in these areas-IQ falls under the realm of psychology
                I believe this is a clear answer to your query
                Now if you do not accept these reasons this is another thing and I can do nothing to sway you that the research and insights I have previously given can

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  Lot of flaws in your statements.

                  First, Economy is NOT  a hard science, it's far closer to pshychology than to physics or math.

                  Next, it's still missing how come in very elitists sports like tennis, black players appeared in the top level, yet it doesn't happen in science or chess.

                  My tennis example was clear, grand slams or Davis Cup in one side ZERO in the other side.

                  If very clear attributes are more present in some races, that end up in clear differences in hair, eyes or skin color, WHY WOULD  ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY BE THE EXCEPTION?

                  That's something no denialist can explain at all.

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                I'll leave you with this question & why I use this as an anology of how culture can defend against racism.
                Have you heard of the Latino paradox?
                As you know ive stated that Hispanics have stronger cultural bonds that deflect racism.
                The Latino paradox is a term that comes from a study that showed Latino/Hispanic immigrants have lower rates of mental illness than even rich Whites. Latino immigrants also are physically healthier than any race or class of Americans
                One factor many researchers attribute this to is that Hispanics have tight nit strong family groups (culture) that insulate them from the stress & racism of American society.

                It is well known physical & mental illness is tied into peoples social economic status. The richer you are the longer you live. This has more to do with the stress of being poor than medical attention although this is a factor also.  Social economic status & racism effect mental health & IQ being a mental or cognitive function is naturally effected as well.
                So in ending this is explains the reason why Hispanics have achieved certain academic accolades that Blacks have not. As ive stated Hispanic have a strong intact culture that lessens the effects of discrimination
                Again Afro American culture does not have this protection mechanism

                This is an interesting article I reccomend

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  Blacks have PLENTY of wealthy families in the USa, from decades ago, THEY EVEN HAVE A PRESIDENT for gods sake! (perhaps they have better genes than hispanics regarding the abilities needed to have political and monetary success, BUT NOT better hardware for extremely high ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY the one needed for being a super-elite Chess GM, or a Nobel laureate in real science or a Fields medalist.

                  • crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

                    black middle class families tend to do worse than white middle class families.
                    rich black people live in neighbouring similar to poor white people. poor whites live in more affluent neighborhoods than rich blacks. so even with income, opportunities aren’t equal so your point is moot

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  Whe you say "Again Afro American culture does not have this protection mechanism"

                  I put the question in this other way.

                  How come such supposed black 'lack of protection' , didn't stop blacks to produce several of the greatest athletes in human history, to produce an USA PRESIDENT and a lot of wealthy families, yet they fail to produce ONE Nobel laureate in real science, ONE Fields medalist, or ONE chess super-elite GM?

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:


              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                This is the correct link about recent the recent discovery that Cleopatra was of mixed Black African decent

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                Eye & skin color are traits that
                Can be attributed to single or a few genetic mutations.  Cognitive ability is a product of a myriad of genes & enviromental effects. One would think if since the races vary in skin, hair & eye color so why not mental ability but its not that simple for one fact intellectual capability, mental cognition & the organ it springs from(the brain) is far more complex than mere eye color.
                its like comparing a cars engine & transmission  to the cars paint job

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  And athletic potential is product of a few genes?

                  How come in speed sprint, blacks are unbeatable, no matter how hard white athletes train?

                  Are white atletes segregated in such competitions?

                  What other explanation would you give to blacks being capable of produce world class, unbeatable athletes, even in some very elitist sports, yet they fail to produce ONE, OOOOONNNNEEEEE  Nobel laureate in a hard science, one winner of the Fields medal, or ONE chess elite player?

                  You can{t blame envirnoment 100% on this, it is ABSURD DENIAL.

  80. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    This is not absurd denial rather your accepting the fallacy that Hispanics have a genetic burden is an absurd & sad inferiority complex. Your lack of genetic & psychological understanding has you arriving at a simplified answer to a complex issue. I suggest you study Epigenetics to give yourself a clearer understanding of  how much enviroment can affect genes &the dynamics surrounding this.

    Epigenetics: http://youtu.be/kp1bZEUgqVI

    Youve also fallen into the psychological tendency or need for one class or group to look down on another. Your comfortable saying you inherently lack the biology for European IQ levels as long as you feel you can look down on Blacks. In simpler terms your ok accepting the fallacy that Hispanics have some inherent barrier to high IQ as long as you feel you can point to Africans & say "hey at least im smarter than them"
    Everything ive presented to you is scientifically valid. Just because you cant comprehend it & or refuse to accept this deeper core explination & data doesn't make it absurd. Now if you displayed you had an understanding of the data & information I presented we'd be at a different level of argument but your insistence on comparing athletic ability to cognitive function shows at the very least you willfully chosen not to grasped my argument & at worst your incapable of grasping the complicated nature of genetic In heratibility, the psycho social economic environmental effects on genes & the new  data of genetics & Epigenetics

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      The times I have to explain it over and over again, makes me think that the point expressed in the article we discuss, is reinforced.

      It's not about WHAT IT'S FAIR, it's about REALITY.

      And in the case of hispanics, what I expressed is that they, despite facing worse conditions than blacks (a big part of them being illegals and not having english as their native language), they have a higher IQ average than blacks.

      And more important than IQ, they produced several SCIENTIFIC laureates,several Chess super-elite grandmasters or have precedents like the mayans having a better math than the europeans of their time, or cases like Jaime Escalante, taking latino barrio kids to excell in math, beating their whites or asians counterparts.

      You fail to see that in the black side. You still have no black reaching the top in Math, in Physics or Chemistry, REAL science. Or in a sport like Chess, where extremely high abstraction capability is needed to become super-elite.

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        By the way what are you even talking about?
        Who said anything about fairness?

        I called my self giving you a handicap because I assumed English was your 2nd language & you simply have trouble expressing your self accurately but obviously you really cant recognize where your argument is weak & or unable to over come the severe confirmation bias you suffer from...more than likely both.

        Have you even looked at the epigenetics link?

        From previous comments its clear your understanding of how genetics & genetic testing works is lacking
        Your comments on the African dna found in Egyptian mummies was hysterical
        You actually think professional geneticist cant tell an allelle thats 2000 yrs old from one thats 70 k years old?

        Your constant comparing simple traits like hair color & skin color to the highly complicated genetic & enviromental dynamics that give rise to cognitive ability shows you have an extreme layman's knowledge of genetics and a very simple understanding of it

        Im a little flustered at the fact you seem unwilling to educate your self. Even if its just watching a 15min video

        Im amused you'd even intertain the thought you were conveying something I couldn't understand
        Your argument is utterly simple minded.

        You are a bit comical

        I truly must bid you a final adieu

        I do thank you for discussing this topic inspite our inability to reach a common understanding

        Enjoy attempting to extrapolate those chess scores onto your own intellect

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Blah blah blah, and you refuse to comment, ¿how come there are black athletes getting to the top notch in sports far more elitist than Science or Chess, yet in the less elitist fields they have ZERO people at the very top- level?

          How come a race can be unbeatable in some athletics competitions that would also involve complex differences, and, what a coincidence, it shows the exact oppose scenario in exact sciences or Chess?

          Are you aware that the 'politically correct' BS is more likely to block research showing the race-intelligence difference (like the one of this article you comment or the twin cases researched) than to promote it?

          • Mike Jones Mike Jones United States says:

            Three time Nobel nominated anthropologist Philip Tobias (1970) compared 7 racial and national groups in a study on brain size/weight in which it was reported that the brain size of American blacks was larger than any white group (including American, English and French whites) except those from the Swedish sub sample who had the largest brains of any sample in the study. It was also estimated that American blacks had some 200 million more neurons than American whites, and brains that were reported to be 54g heavier (See Tobias 1970; Weizmann et al. 1990). While Harvard archeologist Gould (1981, 1996) discovered upon recalculating Morton’s highly suspicious brain size data that the blacks in his sample were on average slightly larger in brain volume than whites. Morton included in his sample of blacks more females than he included in the white sample. For example, in his analysis of Hottentotts (black tribe from South Africa) all measured crania were of females; the Englishmen were all mature men. Morton had also eliminated especially large brains from the African group and especially small brains from the European group (Gould, 1981, 1996). After correcting these biases and errors, it was shown that the black sample actually had larger brains than did the white sample (ibid).

  81. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    Youve also repeated Economics is not a science several times which is absurd. Do you know the math envolved with economics rivals that of engineering & physics? Saying economics is not a science is just makes you sound sillier.

    These are an example of the course work required for a doctorate in economics


    MATH 2304 Calculus III (*)MATH 3100 Linear Algebra (*)MATH 3320 Calculus and Vector Functions (*)MATH 3331 Differential EquationsMATH 3361 Ordinary Differential EquationsMATH/STAT 3401 Introduction to Probability Theory IMATH/STAT 3402 Introduction to Probability Theory IIMATH/STAT 3865 Mathematical ModelingMATH 4350 Theory of Functions of a Real Variable (*)MATH 4360 Introduction to TopologyMATH/STAT 4401 Introduction to Stochastic ProcessesMATH 4841 Topics in Optimization


    MATH 6100 Applied AlgebraMATH 6201 TopologyMATH 6331 Topics in Differential EquationsMATH/STAT 6401 Advanced Probability IMATH/STAT 6402 Advanced Probability IIMATH 6750 Topics in Advanced Numerical AnalysisMATH 6841 Nonlinear OptimizationMATH 6842 Advanced Topics in OptimizationMATH/STAT 6865 Mathematical Modeling

    Sir William Arthur Lewis undoubtedlyover had mathematics skills beyond the average professor in economics
    In fact the category is called "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences"
    Stop hatin Javier

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      I don't know why my first reply didn't appear, despite my other message, so I'l try again.

      First, Economy having math in the coursework, doesn't mean that is as exact science as pure Math, Physics or Chemistry.

      And Economy itself, is as exact science as Psychology, for instance. Psychology relying heavily on stats won't turn them into an exact science, cause it also depends on subjective speculation, same as Economy.

      Second, the Economy prize IS NOT AN OFFICIAL NOBEL PRIZE. The real name of the prize is Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.

      Third, it's only ONE prize, in a field that doesn't require the out-of-this-world abstraction capability.

      Call me when a black scientist wins a Nobel prize in physics or chemistry, or a Fields Medal, then, and only then, we'd start thinking about blacks having the benefit of the doubt the hispanics have, with their laureates, the mayas precedent, the Escalante precedent or the superelite chess GMs precedents.

    • crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

      brain size doesn’t always equal higher intelligence though, one study compared the brain sizes of people with different iqs and educational achievement, and the person with the highest iq and educational achievements had the lowest brain volume out of everyone. also the average black brain is actually larger than albert einstein’s brain. if the gap was caused by brain size it wouldn’t account for more than up to 0.9 standard deviations

  82. Ryan Franks Ryan Franks United States says:

    The amount of confirmation bias here coming from patently racist people is beyond amusing.

    • Tina K Tina K United States says:

      I absolutely agree. This is why objective research in controversial topics always gets politicized and weaponized. This is a sad fact because development and advancement will be stymied as researchers do not want to delve in to "taboo" subjects. I find both the black and white supremacist are really lacking in the intelligences required to have a an objective debate about the topic. Simply put facts are facts however all this speculation as to the causations, is simply that speculations.

  83. Rob Parker Rob Parker Japan says:

    show mentalities devoid of reasoning ability. There are those who immediately used chimpanzee analogies when a black person posted, others fell back on badly expressed opinions of alleged white and asian superiority. I am white by the way.

    Yes, there is a reluctance to admit some facts owing to stifling political correctness in contemporary western society - one of them I can think of is that indigenous hunter-gatherer communities did not select for lateral thinking/ability to think outside the box that has produced innovation and technology in other human societies. The reason being that those who think creatively or challenge the status quo were swiftly dealt with by removal - cast out or often killed by other tribe members.

    It is understandable that such societies require submissiveness to the elders and established leadership but they have not produced thinkers or inventiveness. It is a norm in Australia, for example, to elevate traditional Aboriginal society as somehow superior to the white colonizers who brought ships, tools, architecture and later the telegraph, new farming methods, advancements in medicine, science and aviation. The difference is glaring and the attempts to diminish white society's superior technology and social organisations in favour of a mythical peaceful time of noble hunter gatherers is intellectually dishonest and irrational to say the least.

    However, the question of intelligence of different kinds and IQ differences between whites, blacks and asians is a complex one. One fact some of you conveniently forget is assumed knowledge. Give an IQ test for example to an Aboriginal Australian who lives in a remote community and not necessarily a traditional style one, and they will be completely unfamiliar with the formula. Why on earth should they be compared to East Asians who grow up with such tests at school and in fact spend more hours at school learning such things?

    African Americans in disadvantaged areas tend to grow up in households where a private study place is unknown. Just like white children of the same background or even white working class children - not necessarily factory workers' or manual labourers' children but working class in terms of backgrounds with no higher education of parents and grandparents etc, with homes that have little to no privacy and often include shared bedrooms with siblings. The realities also include no extra classes to learn skills such as playing the piano or tutoring in school subjects.

    If there are books at home and the parent or parents enjoy reading and learning, that will benefit their academic performance but the old fashioned financially modest/working class that was literate from self-knowledge and book reading from libraries if not buying to keep at home, is not usual these days.

    Financially and socially disadvantaged children, especially poorer African Americans in under-privileged areas, often come from backgrounds of parental alcohol and drug abuse. There is considerable research material that attests to the effects these realities have on brain development. Context is everything. Stating these kinds of children perform poorly in IQ tests and academic pursuits without referring to context is simply unhelpful and intellectually dishonest.

    As for the 'superior' East Asians, I have lived in both South Korea and Japan and I can say unequivocally that many school students, especially in Sth Korea, spend between 20 to 30 hours more per week studying including in cram schools after usual school has finished. In China the extra study hours are greater. That study includes - surprise, surprise - IQ tests.

    But, but that proves asians, in this case East Asians including Chinese who often study more, are more intelligent because they are more inclined to value and engage in education. Not necessarily - context applies here as well. Traditionally most Koreans, Japanese and Chinese people were the antithesis of the image of well-disciplined, highly educated, ambitious people that is common and reasonably factual now.

    In 19th century Japan, common folk were similar to what are identified as 'tropical' peoples - known for easygoing attitudes to time, work, etc. In 19th century Korea common folk were so ignorant of modern developments that attacks against the first bicycle riders to use the machines in Korea were seen as normal. Technological advances were suspicious aparently. China's common folk were rural in mindset when not in location, village ways persisted and in fact still do in the PRC.

    Japan's modernisation came about exclusively through adopting western technology. Japan invented nothing apart from nice swords, philosophies and ceremonial practices such as the tea ceremony which involved excessive focus on micro details and symbolism. Everything else was originally derived from the ruling class in old China and the west.

    The modernisation that came in the Meiji Period in 19th century Japan brought a militaristic influence into all sectors of society which became fascism. Education of the masses followed, but creativity and lateral thinking was denied in favour of group-think and blind obediance to the Emperor and ruling classes. Any democracy including the parliamentary system again came from the west.

    Korea was late to develop modernity, clinging to Manchu China as its protector and reluctantly accepting technology such as bicyles and modernisation such as postmen - who were initially regarded with yes, hostility. Korea did invent moveable type centuries before and claimed to have invented undergound heating called 'ondol' but in fact the Pompeians did it earlier. And we all know that China still today has some conditions namely those concering its masses, that haven't changed for centuries.

    It is no surprise that East Asian cultures prioritise fitting in, the hive mind, and accepting received wisdom from socio-economic status quos instead of lateral thinking, debate, logic and creativity. Every modern invention the world takes from granted was created by western countries.

    East Asian countries are copyists - they must have a model to use, they do not create the model. Japan received American technology post WW2 gratis in order to bolster the anti Communist bloc. Korea likewise through American occupation and proxy governments later. China is notorious for stealing technology without acknowledging copyright. One of the significant creative countries with inventors was Scotland with a very small population, proving that cultures prioritising new knowledge and individual freedom win out over cultures such as those in East Asia.

    Finally, I could write for hours on the impracticality, irrationality and yes, even sheer stupidity I have seen in both Sth Korea and Japan - and not all of it by uneducated people. Many of them - certainly not all of them - can score high on IQ tests but the unwillingness to think critically and logically creates a distinct lack of practical intelligence in daily life. Are they the most intelligent people I have met? Certainly not. However, East Asians are good mimics.

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