Thursday, December 22, 2011

In the news: Syria, Iran and the U.S.

The news regarding Syria and "outside intervention" is heating up and possibly reaching a tipping point sooner rather than later:

Western Elite Waging Info-War To Justify Syria Invasion?




U.S. Warns Of New International Action Against Syria After Two-Day "Massacre" Leaves 250 dead

Syria’s main opposition group on Wednesday urged the UN Security Council and Arab League to hold emergency meetings into “the bloody massacres” as it reported 250 people killed in the past 48 hours.

Washington warned of new international measures against Syria, and said if Damascus did not fully implement an Arab League plan to contain the violence, “the international community will take additional steps to pressure the Assad regime to stop its crackdown.”

It also appealed for an “emergency meeting for the Arab League to condemn the bloody massacres… and cooperate with the United Nations in taking the necessary measures to protect Syrian civilians.”

Take a look at this telling statement from the White House:



French foreign ministry spokesman Bernard Valero said: “Everything must be put in motion to end this murderous spiral into which Bashar al-Assad is dragging his people, deeper each day.”

Syrian opposition figures have accused Tehran of aiding Assad’s regime in its deadly crackdown.

Iran Starts Building A Nuclear Weapon: U.S. and Israel Tighten Cooperation

Iran has embarked on "activities related to possible weaponization," said American sources Wednesday, Dec. 22, thereby accounting for the dramatic reversal of the Obama administration's wait-and-see attitude on attacking Iran.

Washington sources report that the Islamic Republic crossed the red line President Barack Obama had set for the United States, i.e., when Tehran begins using the technologies and fissile materials (enriched uranium) it has amassed for assembling a bomb or missile warheads. This marks the moment that Iran goes nuclear and only a short time remains before it has an operational nuclear weapon.

Washington has always claimed that when the order to build a weapon was given in Tehran, the United States would know about it within a short time.

This discovery prompted the latest statements by Mr. Panetta and Gen. Dempsey.
The defense secretary put it into words when he said Tuesday, Dec.: “Despite the efforts to disrupt the Iranian nuclear program, the Iranians have reached a point where they can assemble a bomb in a year or potentially less.”

The White House has since accepted the Israeli assessment of Iran's nuclear bomb time table and endorses the conviction that unless Iran retreats from its decision to build a nuclear bomb and steps back from the process it set in train this month, the only option remaining will be a military strike to disable its nuclear program.

And a few more pertinent articles below:

It's Too Late To Keep Details Of Deadly Flu A Secret - U.S. Scientists Say Details Of Virus Created In Laboratory "Are Already Out There", Sparking Renewed Terror Alert

A super-strain of bird flu that could infect and wipe out millions will not be published by the virologist developers.

Dutch scientists who created ‘probably one of the most dangerous viruses you can make' have agreed to leave out details on how to construct the virus from published reports. But the scientists warned that the data had already been shared with hundreds of researchers.

The decision was made after the US government warned releasing the details could be kill millions of people if it was used as a weapon of biological warfare.

National Science Advisory Board for Biosecurity chairman Paul Kiem, an anthrax expert, said: ‘I can’t think of another pathogenic organism that is as scary as this one. I don’t think anthrax is scary at all compared to this.’


Exclusive: Military To designate U.S. Citizens As Enemy During Collapse



Americans Will Be Transferred To Foreign Prisons Under Indefinite Detention Act


The US could send you somewhere else.





Americans Are Scared To Fly Thanks To TSA

At TSA security checkpoints in airports across America, ‘tis the season for government gropers and festive full body scan. Those increasing anti-air travel sentiments worsened by ongoing intrusions at the hands of the Transportation Security Administration are causing more and more Americans to forego flights as travelers this season are saying they’d rather ride busses and cars then deal with airplanes this year.

According to the results of a survey just released by the US Travel Association, two-out-of-five travelers this season are saying they’re trying to skip the plane and those pesky lines and checkpoints in lieu of other methods of transportation. It might not seem like a substantial number, but the association’s CEO, Roger Dow, tells US News & World Report, "Our research shows that reducing hassle without compromising security will encourage more Americans to fly — as many as two to three additional trips a year — leading to an additional $85 billion in spending that would support 900,000 American jobs.”

Geologists Wonder If The Northwest Is Up Next For A Giant Earthquake

Since the magnitude 9.1 earthquake in Sumatra in 2004, five more giant earthquakes have struck the continents ringing the Pacific Ocean. And some experts speculate that the planet has entered a period of increased seismic activity that could trigger giant earthquakes in vulnerable regions including the Pacific Northwest.

Turin Shourd Made By "Flash Of Light"







ally said...

Im thrilled about the shroud! Ive always hoped it was real! Just like the relics from noahs ark they found back n the 60s or 70s. Amazing stuff! I also find it interesting God never lets scientist truly prove or disprove any of it. Faith, right? I certainly see prophecy getting ready to be fullfilled pretty darn soon here with Damascus! That a no brainer. Pretty bummed about the media here though. People would be ruckusing if they knew what was going on. Even the occupy people are blissfully unaware that we have been stripped of all of our rights. When people wake up, and they will when things are truly implemented, whee doggie as the Cavers say! The flu will probably get released around then. I was never in the military, but as a child was quite fascinated with some brilliant generals like Stonewall Jackson and the swamp Fox. So I accidentally learned a thing or two about the art of war. This would be a good time for Dr Who and Doc No Fog to chime in! Ive always believed in our nation and what it stands for still! But Im to fight the good fight for Jesus, not to be idolatrous with our country. This is hard for me, and Im not trying to be political at all here, but how as Christians are we supposed to reconcile all this? Ideas anyone? Jesus, help us! You have experience with manuvering through a land you love, with people you love, all while being governed by an occupying force! cont...

ally said...

And I want to follow you instead of my pride! My heart is broken by all those who gave their lives for this nation. How disrespectful of us to allow this to happen..Despite everyone constantly saying how we will escape the wrath and the judgement etc ., we will escape the wrath but the judgement, I think we are getting that right now people! Its just starting to really become quite visable. I believe we have divine protection as his children but our nation has lost it. How much of this will we be here for I wonder. I think somebody said recently what could happen in 2012 to top this year? Supervolcano (probanly not, but I believe a few regular ones will go) aliens (most def they will be letting that cat out of the bag in 2012) I cant remember the other idea they put out but war will erupt before next Christmas.I wont be surprised if we get some kind of smakdown this year around Christmas, but I pray not! Just so you dont get bummed out with all this downer info and thoughts. Everything we see leading the world down the wicked path of destruction is leading us up to the sound of the shofar! It must be getting closer because satan is about to poop his pants trying to pull all his evil together to stop Jeshua. I cant wait to meet Jesus so I can ssk him why satan thinks there was any chance he could ever stop any of this from going down EXACTLY the way God said it would. I cant wait til we get, as Paul Harvey used to say, the rest of the story! Maranatha everybody!

Anonymous said...

When we speak to bless others in the name of our Lord Jesus, we inadvertently bless ourselves. This is the way God has set up His Kingdom. And if those whom we bless are utterly unworthy, we are further blessed because it returns back unto us: "And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house.' And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again." Luke 10:5-6 (KJB). Also note Matthew 10:13 -- "And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you." The Greek word for “peace” here does not just mean lack of conflict/war – but wholeness & prosperity. This is the same meaning of the Hebrew word “shalom” that’s used in the Numbers 6:22-27 blessing by Aaron. See also this video on the power of blessing those who are unworthy -- We now live in the End Times & wicked men & their evil increases exponentially (increasing “birth pains”?). Could our speaking blessing upon them (instead of bemoaning these people -- or worse) be what Jesus wants His Christians to do before we’re raptured? Proverbs 18:20-21; Romans 12:14. (Not that we should trust these evil people -- but can we forgive & bless them anyway?) The world & its earth dwellers are a very propitious environment for this supernatural work that only true Christians can do. And our blessing will most likely just return to us; what a great deal!

And thank God for all the great evidence He leaves us of His presence, power, and doings (including the shroud of Turin). Maranatha!


hartdawg said...

Earthquake likely in pacific northwest? that's where i live! Just how worried should i be? they been predicting it for years.

Dave DU said...

Alley look at King David. He was passionate about Jerusalem, but, he always kept his faith balanced between his love of Jerusalem and God.

IMO I believe God wants us to love our home countries but with a proper balance of love for the father as well.

Due to time I don't have any direct scripture references but I'm sure you'll find David's love for God and Jersusalem in the old testament passages of the Psalms, 1&2kings, 1&2Chronicals etc.


Helen said...

I was curious to know how these Scriptures fit into the "shroud" scenario.


Matthew 27:59: "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth."

Luke 23:53: "And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid."

Luke 24:12: "Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass." The New International Version (NIV) renders this passage: "Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves..."

John 19:39-40: "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

John 20:6-7: "Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." Again, the NIV refers to "strips of linen."

These are the same Scriptures amplified.

Mark 15:46 states that Jesus was wrapped in linen. "The Greek verb used means 'press in,' "pack,' 'force in.' Matthew and Luke obviously found the word somewhat unseemly and replaced it with one that means 'envelop.' But the clear implication of all three synoptics is that the material was bound tightly round the body." 1 The Shroud of Turin shows an image made by simply lying a linen shroud on top of the front of the body, over the head and down the back.

Matthew 27:59: is ambiguous. It describes Joseph wrapping the body "in a clean linen cloth." The "cloth" could have been broad linen fabric in the shape of the Shroud of Turin, or could have been in the form of narrow linen bandage(s).

Luke 24:12 says that Peter observed the "...linen clothes laid by themselves..." If Jesus had not been wrapped in linen strips, but had been enclosed by the Shroud of Turin, one would expect Luke to have written that Peter saw the "...linen cloth laid by itself..." And the NIV translation would not have mentioned "strips of linen."

John 19:40 indicates that Jesus burial was a normal one, following the Jewish traditions. Thus, Joseph of Arimethea would have washed the body. The body shown in the Shroud of Turin was not washed.

John 20:6 repeats the events recorded by Luke; he mentions that Peter saw "the linen clothes," not the linen cloth.

John 20:7 makes a point of mentioning that there was a head covering -- a napkin -- as well as the (plural) "linen clothes." This passage describes multiple clothes. It does not match the shroud of Turin which is a single panel of linen.

I saw this somewhere on another website and I thought it made some sense.

Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Thank you.....Helen

WVBORN56 said...

December 22...the first day of winter and it feels more like the first day of spring here in WV...if this is global warming I am all in favor! lol

Anonymous said...

New member here, so bear with me please. Ally,I also wonder where our country is in bible prophecy?? Why can we not help Israel in the last days? This country is only a little over 200 years old compared to the rest of the world. My question is why do we not help Israel in the end?

Alice said...

Welcome Anon!

I'm not Ally, but thought I'd take a stab at your question, if that's ok. Here's the explanation I've heard. It's not that many here won't want to help, but it's that for SOME reason which we don't yet fully know, ALL will turn against Israel in the end. Zechariah 12:3 tells us this. Israel will have no friends whatsoever.

Many prophecy experts have speculated on why the US is not in prophecy. I like to think that the Rapture of the Church will have happened, leaving our military very marginalized, at best. Or we could simply have an evil president and administration in charge who choose to support the other side... or turn a blind eye... hard to imagine... ;)

Of course there are plenty of far more dire scenarios that are possible (like a terrible attack on our homeland), but I like the Rapture one best!

I also like the thought (although this is PURELY speculation, too) that Revelation 12:14 is the US helping Israel during the Great Tribulation, because of the "great eagle" which helps the woman fly off to the wilderness. These would be newly saved Americans coming to Israel's aid, if this speculation is correct, due to the timing of this event (the Rapture has already occurred by Rev 12). We will be long gone by then.


P.S. Missing DrWho and DrNo

WVBORN56 said...

Here is my theory on the closeness of the rapture as it relates to this issue of why America turns on Israel as predicted in the passage shared by Alice.

No President has ever won a second term with unemployment at it's current level. Romney is most likely the republican nominee and is pro Israel. If things continue on the present course Romney most likely would defeat Obama. If however we are near the rapture based on the closeness of the tribulation as we suspect, Obama would have to remain President solely based on the two men's attitudes/positions on Israel.

There are really only three plausible scenarios for that to occur IMHO.

#1 The rapture occurs prior to November 2012 taking a big part of the republican electorate.
#2 Romney is not the republican nominee giving Obama an easier re-election path? Even with that Obama has to overcome a terrible economy.
#3 Marshall law is enacted and elections are called off. This is just not very plausible prior to the tribulation and the ensuing chaos.

Of those three I would argue #1 is the most plausible.

I just don't see #1 or #2 happening. Anyone at this point but Romney is a very long shot. The fix is in. Bush senior today just endorsed Romney. Marshall law in America means the world is falling apart and that fits with the tribulation and the church will be long gone.

There could be lots of other senarios obviously but with the apparent closeness of the tribulation I'm picking option #1. I just can't see any republican short of Ron Paul going against Israel.


Dave DU said...

Can anyone have a good go at fitting the first 2or 3 verses of Daniel chp 12 in with the pre-trib theory. I'm surprised by the lack of interest in these two verses from the prophetic world; perhaps MRS C? Or someone?

Nathan said...

I've noticed a lot of anti-Obama sentiment on here (and i'm not condemning anyone because i'm probably one of THE most guilty of it) but sometimes i have to remind myself that the Lord said right in the Bible that he choses the people to be in power and that we should respect the authority he gives them and pray for them . Because in the end its already written in the book whats going to happen and all their decisions (like them or not are predetermined)So even though Obama is the first President to turn his back on Israel it has to happen to fulfill His promises . If you think about it if Hitler never came to power and did the terrible things he did to the Jewish people Israel would have never been re-born ? (THE SUPER SIGN) of all prophecy watchers would not have taken place ? ...God has a plan . I don't think Obama is an evil person i think he falls under "forgive him he knows not what he does" . We'll see ? God Bless all, thats my 2 cents .

Scott said...

Great comments all around, I wish I had time to respond to all of them.

Dave, Daniel 12, first verse gives us the context - which is the Tribulation. Michael typically protects Israel. (ref Jude 9)Michael was given special responsibility to protect the people of Israel.

The reference to the people being delivered is the people of Israel who, by miraculous divine protection has been preserved and will be delivered from their persecutors - the repeated reference to "thy people" twice in one verse seems to point to the people of Israel

According to Walvord, writing in his commentary on Daniel says this:

"The deliverance will not extend to all of Israel in that unbelieving or apostate Israel is excluded.; and even here, it refers to those actually living at the time of the return of Christ as many others may be martyred. The prophecy assures however, that in spite of satanic efforts to exterminate the people of Israel, a godly remnant will be ready to greet their Messiah when He returns.

The people of Israel who have endured the times of the Gentiles ever since the days of Nebuchadnezzar will be delivered "at that time"

More --->

Scott said...

Daniel 12:2

At the end of the Tribulation, the Old Test Saints will receive their resurrected bodies - as that marks the end of the 490 year period referenced from Daniel 9.

So the Church receives their glorified bodies at the end of the Church Age (at the time of the rapture...Keep in mind, the saints that died before the resurrection receive their glorified bodies FIRST (probably by a split second) but not until the Church Age has ended. ALL church saints receive their glorified bodies at the end of the Church Age

Similarly, ALL O.T. Saints receive their glorified bodies (and "everlasting life") at the same time, which is the end if the Tribulation and the end of "their" (Jewish" age.)

Th second part of verse two is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement which comes at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth. The fact that this verse separates two events over a 1000 year period is not atypical for OT prophecies.

Verse 3 is easy at this point, and I'll quote Walvoord again:

"Following the resurrection of the righteous their faithfulness in witness will be rewarded. It is significant that no mention is made of the punishment of the wicked. Their resurrection will not occur until a thousand years later according to Rev 20; and the final judgment of those who wickedly opposed Christ..."

Scott said...

Ally - For a variety of reasons I was obsessed with the shroud for many years (just from pure interest, especially in the science of the shroud)...I can tell you from everything I have studied - there is absolutely NO WAY this isn't the true shroud of Jesus. Its the ONLY explanation that makes any sense AND fits with all the data. There is SO MUCH information to support that POV, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Scott said...

I see your point and I tend to agree. God has a plan and the various leaders in the world today are all part of that plan. Obama included.

Katheen said...

Thanks for your comments regarding Daniel 12:1-2. As I read your last sentence about the wicked not being resurrected until after a thousand years later, something hit me.

I should know this, but...if being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, where are the wicked when they die, before their resurrection? Are they in Hades?


Scott said...

Kathleen - yes, there are still there, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. The reference towards 'being absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord" is a reference towards believers only, as you probably know (just making sure!)

Robin said...

I find it utterly fascinating that not only does science now agree the Shroud of Turin is real, but that it's now thought the site where Moses received the Law has been found . . .in Israel. So many things converging. It's as though God is saying, "Ok, it's your last chance to stand up and take notice".

Kathleen said...

Thanks Scott,
I did know being absent from the body and present with the Lord was for believers only but it made me wonder about the unbelievers and where they were while waiting for the Great White Throne Judgement.

Robin said...

Ally, I agree with you regarding our country. Even though we're likely witnessing the end of the last days before the Trib. begins, we can't throw up our hands in defeat, because frankly, we won't know for sure until the Rapture.

I think it's also likely, those human masterminds of this heinous plot, are every bit as familiar if not more so, with Bible prophecy as we are . . .and likely are using it to control or even smoke out, those they believe could stand in their way. So yes, we must remain vigilant and continue fighting for our nation until the end, otherwise, the hundreds of thousands who've died for our liberty, would have died in vain.

Kathleen said...

I have something I want to throw out for comments. Several years ago I had a very vivid dream. In my dream I was standing in my kitchen reading a book, when all of a sudden I *knew* that it was time. I put down the the book and ran out back and looked to the east and saw clouds forming, and churning, knowing this was Jesus coming back. I ran in the house, called my sister who lives in San Diego and said "do you see what is happening?" She said yes. We said our goodbyes and said we'll see each other in heaven. I went back outside and the clouds were rolling in even more quickly. The Word says Jesus is the light. In my dream, I interpreted Jesus as a airplane landing light (don't laugh, I *knew* it was Him). Then I saw a lot of shadowy forms (because the clouds were not real thick but you could see through, like fog) contd.

Kathleen said...

These forms were floating alongside Jesus, accompanying Him. It was pretty cool, actually.
I was worried about my oldest daughter (but not my youngest) and she (my oldest) then drove around the corner in a van with her head out the window, smiling. Then I *knew* that she was saved.

Ok, so my concern with this dream describes the Glorious Appearing, since the saints were with Him. Then why was I, along with other believers, still here? This has been bothering me a bit since I had the dream.

Any comments?

Scott said...

I'm not very good at dream interpretation, so not much help here. But how do you know that those figures weren't angels?

Secondly, I'm not sure that every single detail of a dream should be the focus, but rather the "big picture" anyway. But again, dreams aren't my area of expertise by any means!

Dave DU said...

Hi Kathleen, I would take it at face value and believe that Jesus is simply showing you the salvation of your family. Your not to worry, that everything will be ok by the time He comes back to collect us.

The shadowy figures are probably grayed out because you are to keep your focus on Jesus only and what he is telling you, which is the salvation of your family.

I have a feeling the clouds "might" also mean that Jesus is breaking through the shroud of your consciousness to deliver that very important message. Like all of us our minds are so cluttered and clouded over with doubt, fears and the cares of life. But you did say that you knew it was the second coming.

Is anything bothering you to an exceptional degree?

You must be up in arms Kathleen about you still being here. Please dont be bothered you will go up to meet the Lord in the air.

Just my thoughts Kathleen.


Kathleen said...

Hi Dave DU,
Nice to see you back.

I didn't know that it was the second coming, I just thought about it later. The rapture happens in an instant, and with the 2nd coming, people can see Him coming, and in the dream I saw Him coming in the clouds with what I thought to be the saints alongside Him. So it puzzled me. But the Lord just now showed me a few things from my dream which clears it up:

1) At the time He was coming, everything was normal, ie. no oppression, no obvious tribulation times.

2)The Lord reminded me that in my dream, when I saw that He was coming, I scrambled to put quite a few books on the picnic table on the back porch for those who would be left behind. So...obviously the rapture hadn't happened yet.

So what I'm taking away from this dream is that He is coming soon (and this was a few years ago) and that my daughter is safe. He was coming soon a few years ago, and as we know that time is even closer now.

Thanks for your input,

Helen said...

I see that you believe that the shroud is real.

Would you mind addressing the Scriptures that I have posted above?

I don't see how it can be when we read from God's Word the conditions of the burial and resurrection of Jesus.
Please, help me with this.

We all love 'signs and wonders', but, in light of Scripture how do we explain this one?

Thank you, Helen

Dave DU said...

Wow that's amazing Kathleen and thank you for your kind words.

Dave DU

Scott said...

Could you be more specific? I didn't see anything in those scriptures that stood out as a conflict (?)

Alice said...

Hi Helen...I'm just going to say with regard to those scriptures, that unless we go directly to the Greek, it's hard for me to get too concerned about nuances like "linen clothes" or "strips of linen" vs "linen cloth"... Many of our translations have issues with nuances...

I also believe there could have been "strips of linen" used in conjunction with the large, single shroud. The strips would have been easier to lose over time, while this larger piece was easier to keep track of.

As for the body being washed, we know from our own forensic science today that blood evidence is VERY difficult to eradicate. So I believe the body could have been "washed" to the best of their ability (which I don't believe would have been very good) and still left behind major evidence.

Just my thoughts...

I would be interested in hearing Scott's thoughts on this, as well!

Ooops...just saw Scott's post. Hopefully these were the issues that you saw as conflicting...

Helen said...

Hi Alice and Scott,

Since I posted this yesterday, I have done quite a bit of searching on the web, and I have found so many cases, both pro and con for the shroud being authentic.

I personally do not believe it is. I just have a hard time with ANYTHING that is called "proof" (in man's terms) of Jesus being who He said He was. (We believe by Faith.)

I also am a firm believer that in the "last days" we will have "lying signs and wonders".

Now, some will say why would Satan want to counterfeit something that would prove Jesus?

I can say that he would want to get people to believe in signs, and then it is one step more to believe in the signs performed by the ac.

I am not good at explaining things, and I never want to cause controversy.

This is certainly not a matter of salvation, so I will say, "We can agree, to disagree".

Blessings, Helen

Cynical me! said...

The image is of a real man tortured to give a semblance of Christ’s crucifixion so it isn’t a ‘fake’; it is real, but contrived and not of Jesus imho.

Experiments have re-enacted the making of the image by fixing it onto the linen by projecting strong sunlight onto the linen. It was laid out on a board in a dark room with a slit arranged in e.g. a window, its possible a prism of glass was used to intensify the suns rays to mimic the ‘resurrection light’.

The ‘spear’ wound made by the soldier was to ensure death by piercing the heart. The wound is on the right-hand side of the chest, instead of the middle-left, just like all RC pictures wrongly portray. The wound would have been on the middle-left underneath the heart. To the viewers right, not left.

The figure on the ‘shroud’ had long hair. Jesus was a Nazarene not a Nazarite who had to leave their hair long for their vow. Otherwise Jesus is portrayed in catacomb graffiti as having short hair like a ‘crew cut’, as did the disciples. Paul said it is unseemly for men to have long hair. Short hair is in keeping with Jewish tradition.

The real ‘shroud’ was strips of linen cloths the same as swaddling bands for a baby. Not one piece. The face cloth was separated and laid to one side and indicates how Jesus ‘The Head’ is presently separated from His Body, the Church. Although the body of Jesus was taken down quickly because of the Sabbath and not washed. That is why Mary was retuning after the 2nd Sabbath was over to prepare Jesus body properly.

The figures nose had been broken and not one bone of Jesus body was broken to fulfil Scripture.

The feet were nailed through the ankle bone on either side of the beam not crossed over and pierced at the front. Again a fault of RC depictions.

Also the figure had the sides of his beard cut and that is forbidden for a faithful Jew.

We are ‘engraved’ onto the palms of God’s hands, Although the nails were usually put through the wrists, they could still use the actual hands because the arms were bound to the cross to support the weight.

Above all we are to walk by faith, not by sight. I don’t accept that this command would have been allowed to be countermanded by preserving the ‘shroud’.

Helen said...

You have voiced some of the reality of Scripture and I do appreciate it.

I will continue my search for the truth.

Thank you, and thanks to everyone here for the ability to 'voice' these things without animosity.

Blessings to all,:)

Mrs.C said...

His Sister Helem,:)
Ill come back and help with your questions, ok?
God Bless You Sis!

Hi Cynical, :)
Whew...I have to respectfully disagree. Lots to discuss here for sure. Forgive me, I say this in His Love, but you did happen to gather your statements from a program that attempted to debunk the Shroud, so as to speak?
These "experiments" did not fully reproduce the Shroud image. Hair-is the correct length, broken bones-His legs were not broken as the thieves were, wrists with nail marks - primary point of hanging on the Cross-nail through the radial nerve I believe-leaving the hand unable to function-, "cut beard"- nope it was pulled out not cut...ancient Jewish burials- single cloth- wrapped and sewed together(without knots) as I recall...
The Shroud obviously is of a man that was not "washed" before burial. This is exactly what would have happened to our Lord Jesus. If a Jewish person dies a violent death, it is an exception to the "wash" rule. When there is blood on the body that flowed when the person was alive "life blood" it is not to be washed away. If there are clothes that contain the persons blood, blood that ran before they died, the cloths are to be placed at the feet of the person when buried. And any cloths with blood on them, cannot be removed from the person. Jesus we know, had no clothes on Him when the last of His Blood was shed.
Jewish tradition to save the blood. Life is in the blood. Blood had to be collected.
Have to go right now, but Ill be back :) BTW, did you know that there is a "face cloth" that is tucked away in a vault in Spain? The Sudarium of Oviedo - the Face Cloth of Christ. Fascinating, and it has the same blood type that is on the Shroud – AB. Heres the link…really have to go for now :)
God Bless!

Scott said...

Thanks Mrs C for saving me the time and effort :)

There is much much more and I may muster up the energy to go into detail, but there are a lot of good, scientific books which detail all of this.

As far as the "proof" vs "evidence" issue, I don't think I see it the same way.

As we now know, there will never be 100% definitive evidence of the Shroud - IOW there will always be doubt - and the dlubters can cling to that - therefore, IMO, faith is still required. ...So the shroud will never replace the need for faith under any scenario.

Especially as emphasized by Strobels's books, there is abundant evidence, in many ways (historical, evidence etc) - that Jesus was who the Bible says He was and there are far more potent bits of "evidence" than the shroud.

I believe there are "nuggets" of information that God so mercifully gave people - and it is there if someone is genuinely "seeking".....Details about the universe, the creation story, biblical stories, etc...Are often readily available and serve as strong and potent indicators that God is who He says He is. Jesus the same.

Scott said...

The shroud is like biblical prophecy. Read all you can - read both sides of the story - but do your homework and don't form immediate conclusions. Read at least 6-8 books - detailed books by the scientists who went to the shroud (and their conclusions) and other scientific books. There are DVDs available as well -look at these and determine where the preponderance of evidence lies.

After doing the above, I am left with the idea that no other reasonable or plausible explanation exists, other than the 'fact' that this is indeed the shroud of Jesus.

Should it be a matter of faith or worship? Absolutely not. BUT. Should the scientific evidence and the possibility that God gives (information) to those who are seeking (as with the abundance of other examples that already exist - prophecy being one of them) be ignored?

Do you realize that the shroud is actually an x-ray, where you can see the bones? Do you realize that the image is "3-dimensional" which would be impossible to recreate? (the fake image by using sunlight (referenced in a comment avove) has so many dissimilarities to the actual shroud, its not really worth discussing seriously).

Do you realize that the image only affected the very outermost microscopic "fibrils" and these affected fibrils were done so in a 'random pattern' microscopically? (ruling out any attempt at faking this with conventional means).

There is so so much more. Give it a good hearty study - its extremely fascinating

Cynical me! said...

I have meant no offence Mrs C. If you have made up your mind the shroud is genuine, that’s your choice. But I agree with Helen that the Biblical facts, as well as Bible history, do not match what I see as a ruse to make more money for Rome.

The fact that the image can be reproduced by simple science speaks reams; it is simply a reality check that it was easy to fake by a religion making money out of religious artefacts. Killing a man to emulate the torture wasn’t difficult and it is still a valid criticism. This is no different than using other ‘evidence’ that is trying to prove the shroud is genuine.
Everything else I have based on Biblically based Jewish practice with Scripture.

Yes, they did pull Jesus' beard out. Surprisingly little facial blood or swelling for a face that was marred more than any other man. And the shroud image clearly has the sides of the beard cut on an even angle on both sides of the head. Orthodox Jews don’t do that even today. (Hair is something I always pay attention to)

Isaiah 15:42 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

The shroud image was not particularly ‘marred’; no worse than doing several rounds with good boxer. His face shows ‘some’ swelling, but nowhere near enough to fit Isaiah’s description imo.

Not ‘A’ bone of his body was broken in fulfilment of Scripture
Interpretation of Greek uses indefinite article and it shows no definite article specifying which bone.

This prophecy fulfils the Passover Lamb. Just one broken bone and the lamb is not kosher.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, ‘A’ bone of him shall not be broken.

Same in the Hebrew about the perfect Passover Lamb. Interpretation again uses indefinite article.
Exodus 12:36 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break ‘A’ bone thereof.

(not break a bone) indefinite article again. It doesn’t specify a leg bone, but ‘A’ bone, that is, any bone.

The hair was shoulder length which is far too long for a devout Jew. Unless he was under the Nazarite vow, and Jesus wasn’t as he drank wine and touched dead bodies, forbidden to the Nazarite. Jesus was from Nazareth and that is just a district, not a vow.

Leviticus 19:20 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Cynical me! said...

The Romans and the Greeks wore their hair cropped short.

I have already agreed on the ‘wash’ not being done. For that reason alone, there isn’t enough ‘gore’ to warrant this image being marred more than any other man imo
The burial was hasty due to coming two Sabbaths, and the women were returning to finish the burial before dawn on the morning of the resurrection. As soldiers were appointed to guard the tomb; no doubt they assumed they would roll back the stone to access the tomb, but when they arrived…

As for the face cloth, all I can say is more money for the coffers. They made full use of the man they maimed and murdered. They have the tomb of the three wise men in Cologne Cathedral in Germany and people go there in droves to pray. All they have is the tip of a finger bone, but it rakes in the money for the Vatican. As does the shroud.

2Cor.5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
We are also to walk in The Truth of God’s written commands in the Bible. 2John I:4. If it isn’t revealed in Scripture, I give it a very wide berth. So I don’t believe the shroud is even remotely, anything like, Bible prophecy. But I do think it is part and parcel of the end time Ecumenical deception of the Harlot church.

Just to says Scott and Mrs C; that this is E.I.(Sue)I couldn’t resist this comment, but it is an exception. I go now. :)


Helen said...

Mrs. C....Dear sis, :)
Thank you so much for answering this question.

I was truly seeking answers, and I appreciate all that everyone has offered.

I guess I should not have broached this question.
I just want everyone to know that I have done this in good faith, and I am sorry if it has stirred some controversy. Please forgive me.

Blessings, Helen

Scott said...

I'm in a hurry now, but have to comment on the "lack of gore" etc that is mentioned above.

In the post mortem state, with the heart no longer beating, there is only the residual blood that is left on the body and the shroud appropriately reflects what one (medicaly) would expect to see.

Let me also add - I discuss this only in an academic manner and I have no emotion whatsoever tied up in this. And I don't have any attachment to having someone believe this is the shroud of Jesus, because ultimately, it doesn't matter that much.

Having said that - can I ask what reference material has been read - (?) by those folks who do not believe it is the shroud of Jesus (here, I am interested in facts regarding the shroud itself, not interpretation of scriptures that would argue one way or the other)....I'm just interested to see what people are 'bringing to the table' in terms of scientific data that has been studied/reviewed and where it is coming from.

Thanks :)

Scott said...

In the (dead) bodies I have seen covered, coming from a car accident or other forms of extreme trauma, there simply isn't that much blood on the sheets or whatever is used. Now in an injured (alive) person who has experienced a lot of trauma, there is copious amounts of blood/fluid. But not in a post mortem state.

Helen said...

Scott, I am afraid that I don't read many books that are extra biblical, so I can't speak of 'medical knowledge'.

Thank you,and I do wish I had not brought it up. :)


mary said...

Awwww,Helen, big hug...and know that you are loved .

Caver said...

Helen, not to fret. Probably after din-din we are going to revisit it. Its a fascinating subject and the facts very much support this being THE shroud, IMHO.

After dinner one of us is going to look up a recent either Yale or Harvard pathology report based on what they could gather from the shroud.

Its fascinating.

Mrs.C said...

Dearest Helen, :)
Please Sis, you have done NOTHING WRONG! ok? Big Hug, it is a fascinating subject, and you have every right to ask questions that you earnestly would like answers to.This is not about the RCC, this is about a ancient artifact, that is genuine, and unreplicated.
God Bless You Sis! 

Mrs.C said...

Hi Brother Scott, :)
Yes indeed, the facts are what is fascinating. The scientific study of the Shroud is amazing!
God Bless!

Mrs.C said...

"The following is from Report on the Shroud of Turin pp 2-4.Dr. Joseph Heller, the author, a former Harvard professor of Internal Medicine and Pathology, simplified some of the medical terminology in this forensic report written by Dr. Robert Bucklin, the deputy coroner and forensic pathologist of Los Angeles County, a report concurred in by Dr. Joseph Gambescia, a pathologist in Pennsylvania:

Irrespective of how the images were made, there is adequate information here to state that they are anatomically correct. There is no problem in diagnosing what happened to this individual. The pathology and physiology are unquestionable and represent medical knowledge unknown 150 years ago.

This is a 5-foot, 11-inch male Caucasian weighing about 178 pounds. The lesions are as follows: beginning at the head, there are blood flows from numerous puncture wounds on the top and back of the scalp and forehead. The man has been beaten about the face, there is swelling over one cheek, and he undoubtedly has a black eye. His nose tip is abraded, as would occur from a fall, and it appears that the nasal cartilage may have separated from the bone. There is a wound in the left wrist, the right one being covered by the left hand. This is the typical lesion of crucifixion. The classical artistic and legendary portrayal of a crucifixion with nails through the palms of the hands is spurious [i.e., wrong]: the structures in the hand are too fragile to hold the live weight of a man, particularly of this size. Had a man been crucified with nails in the palms, they would have torn through the bones, muscles, and ligaments, and the victim would have fallen off the cross.

There is a stream of blood down both arms. Here and there, there are blood drips at an angle from the main blood flow in response to gravity. These angles represent the only ones that can occur from the only two positions which can be taken by a body during crucifixion. [A momentary 'T' position to breathe, until the pain on the feet becomes too great, and a "Y" position with bent knees, which quickly paralyzes the chest muscles from strain and pain.]

Mrs.C said...

On the back and on the front there are lesions which appear to be scourge marks. Historians have indicated that Romans used a whip called a flagrum. This whip had two or three thongs, and at their ends there were pieces of metal or bone which look like small dumbbells. These were designed to gouge out flesh. The thongs and metal end-pieces from a Roman flagrum fit precisely into the anterior and posterior scourge lesions on the body. The victim was whipped from both sides by two men, one of whom was taller than the other, as demonstrated by the angle of the thongs.

There is a swelling of both shoulders, with abrasions indicating something heavy and rough had been carried across the man's shoulders within hours of death. On the right flank, a long, narrow blade of some type entered in an upward direction, pierced the diaphragm, penetrated into the thoracic cavity through the lung into the heart. This was a post-mortem event, because separate components of blood cells and clear serum drained from the lesion. Later, after the corpse was laid out horizontally and face up on the cloth, blood dribbled out of the side wound and puddled along the small of the back. There is no evidence of either leg being fractured. There is an abrasion of one knee, commensurate with a fall (as is the abraded nose tip); and, finally, a spike had been drive through both feet, and blood had leaked from both wounds onto the cloth. The evidence of a scourged man who was crucified and died from the cardiopulmonary failure typical of crucifixion is clear-cut. [Italics added] [end of quote]

Mrs.C said...

"The following is from Verdict on the Shroud, pp 182-185:

One of the most intriguing aspects of the Shroud image is the graphic evidence of the spear wound in Jesus' chest. The Gospel of John states that he was already dead when he was stabbed in the side in order to make sure that he was dead, and that blood and water proceeded from the wound. [Actually, according to an ancient source, stabbing was a Roman post-mortem desecration "per custom" if anyone requested the body for burial.] This mixture is visible on the Shroud. It proceeded from the chest wound, and is actually more visible on the dorsal [back] image, where the blood flowed horizontally across the waist. Physicians agree that the Shroud image of the wound is consistent with the gospel statement that a Roman lance penetrated Jesus' heart. However, the experts have similar but somewhat differing explanations for the presence of the water as well as blood in the flow from the wound.

One view concerns the pericardium, the sac which surrounds the heart, and which contains a small amount of watery fluid. When the body undergoes great stress, as crucifixion would certainly entail, the amount of fluid increases and the sac expands. The Roman lance would then have passed through Jesus' pericardium and into the right side of his heart, which is filled with blood even after death. As the lance was withdrawn, it would draw out the blood from the heart and the watery fluid from the expanded pericardium.

Anthony Sava, an American physician, has a different explanation for the water flow. He believes that the severe scourging caused internal hemorrhaging in Jesus' chest, and the pleural cavity filled with blood. The blood settled on the bottom of the chest cavity while a clear liquid was left on top. Sava says that the Roman lance entered the chest and, upon being withdrawn, released the blood and the water from the chest. "

Mrs.C said...

"Both of these views may be partially correct. The lance could have passed through the pleural cavity, through the pericardium and into the heart. The blood could have come both from the pleural cavity and from the right side of the heart, while the water could have come from both the upper chest cavity and from the pericardium. Indeed, this combination is the general view held by the German radiologist Moedder and by English physician David Willis.

The most probable thesis is that held by Bucklin, who agrees with Moedder and Willis that the lance pierced both the pleural cavity and the right side of the heart. He opposes Sava's theory that there was severe hemorrhaging in the chest, since the chest injuries were not severe enough. However, Bucklin agrees that most of the water proceeded from pleural effusion while most of the blood came from the right side of the heart.

The explanations for the blood and water flow are closely related at several points. All physicians who have examined the question agree that Jesus was already dead when the chest wound was inflicted. The blood and water most probably flowed from both the heart and the chest cavity. "

Mrs.C said...

The Physical Cause of Jesus' Death

Physicians who have examined the Shroud image are unanimous in their belief that the man was dead when he was placed in the Shroud, and that his death was caused by crucifixion and the tortures that preceded it. They also agree that he was dead when the spear pierced his side. They are not as sure about the exact [emphasis in original] cause of Jesus' death, but their opinions are quite similar.

Most experts hold that Jesus died primarily of asphyxiation, the usual cause of death in crucifixion. According to this view, Jesus died more quickly than most victims because scourging and beating had gravely weakened him. He was eventually unable to pull himself up on the cross in order to breathe [the "T" position described above], and he asphyxiated in the "down" position [the bent-knee "Y" position] on the cross. In this case, the muscles around his lungs kept him from exhaling and directly caused his death. Bucklin adds that complications due to congestive heart failure were likely as well.

Sava offers a related alternative. He holds that the internal hemorrhaging in the chest cavity caused by the fierce scourging was a cause of death. The liquids slowly compressed the lungs, causing asphyxiation by pleural effusion.

Davis presents another somewhat similar view. He holds that the pericardium, the sac surrounding the heart, filled with fluid under the stress of suffering. This liquid compressed the heart, eventually causing heart failure. After Jesus was dead, the Roman lance pierced both the pericardium and the heart, and released the blood and watery fluid.

A consensus is visible among these views. Most scholars hold that asphyxiation played an important part in Jesus' death. He struggled on the cross to keep breathing. Some scholars hold that he asphyxiated directly when the chest muscles fail to sustain breathing. Others suggest asphyxiation as the blood and fluid also compressed his lungs. But all these scholars agree that the Shroud contains conclusive evidence that Jesus indeed died and that it reveals the general features of his death.
Again, in the interest of intellectual honesty, I must point out that the last quote from Verdict on the Shroud states that "scholars hold ... in Jesus' death." It is more accurate to state that "scholars hold ... in the man in the Shroud's death." (And he died in exactly the same way as Jesus) As Heller points out in his book, when members of the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) were asked point-blank "Is the man in the Shroud Jesus?" their response was that science can never conclusively answer that question. At page 216 he quotes STURP member Ray Rogers:

"In science, you're entitled to any hypothesis you choose, .... But if you don't have a test to examine that hypothesis, it's not worth anything. [That doesn't mean the hypothesis is wrong, only that it cannot be validated scientifically.] We do not have a [scientific] test for Jesus Christ. So we can't hypothesize or test for that question."

Interestingly, it would turn out that three decades later the same Ray Rogers would settle the 1988 radiocarbon-dating controversy by proving that the sample was taken from a previously undetected repair that was not part of the original Shroud!"

Mrs.C said...


" The Shroud is a linen cloth woven in a 3-over-l herringbone pattern, and measures 14'3" x 3'7". These dimensions correlate with ancient measurements of 2 cubits x 8 cubits - consistent with loom technology of the period. The finer weave of 3-over-1 herringbone is consistent with the New Testament statement that the "sindon" (or shroud) was purchased by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a wealthy man. Also, Leviticus 19:19 speaks of the mixing of linen and cotton, but prohibits linen and wool or the mixing of vegetable and animal. In 1969, Dr. Gilbert Raes of the Ghent Institute of Textile Technology in Belgium noted that there are traces of cotton (identified as Gossipium herbaceum) in the linen of the Shroud.

In June 2002, the Shroud was sent to a team of experts for restoration. One of them was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment. The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada.
The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD
This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe."

there is more at this site

The Shroud of Turin - Evidence of authenticity











Mrs.C said...

Then there is this, where did the images of Jesus through out the centuries come from? This is a very interesting site. Scroll down and read the history and many other fascinating facts. For example in 2004 computer enhancements showed a faint second face on the Shroud. Wow, fascinating!

It is amazing to me, that time is running out for the Shroud. It is fading, and they cant prevent it. When I heard that, it was quickened in me, that perhaps as the Shroud fades, it is drawing closer to our Lord coming to for us. :) Just a happy, joyful thought!
God Bless!

Caver said...

Just adding me $0.02 to the above..this from the link Mrs C posted above.

The Other Picture of Jesus on the Shroud: The Second Face

Barely visible second picture of Jesus on the Shroud Turin

The secular, peer-reviewed scientific Journal of Optics of the Institute of Physics reported that a faint picture of a second face was discovered on the back of the Shroud of Turin (April 14, 2004).

This picture of a second face was directly behind the face on the front of the cloth as though paint or stain had soaked through. But when we probe between the two facial pictures, when we look at the interior of the threads, when we examine individual fibers, we discover that nothing has soaked through. The pictures of the faces are thin and superficial to the extreme outer surfaces of the Shroud.

This is an extraordinary scientific mystery!

How thin are these pictures?

Picture this: Slice a human hair lengthwise, from end to end, into 100 long thin slices, each slice a tenth of the width of a single red blood cell. The pictures of Jesus on the Shroud, at their thickest, are this thin. In fact, these pictures of Jesus are thinner than most bacteria.

Jan said...

I would like to point out. Jesus chose the moment of His death. He said:"It is finished. Into Your hands I commend My Spirit."

Scott said...

No problem! When I am discussing something I just like to know where folks are coming from, thats all. It helps me form a frame of reference in a discussion, (plus its a carry over from the way we discuss things in research - knowing one's background and what information they are working with.

You have every right to your opinion and every right to base that opinion on what you choose!

There are some very fascinating reads and/or DVDs to read and view if you are interested.

Mrs.C said...

"New mysteries of the Shroud unveiled Body inside ancient linen 'levitated' while leaving image"

November 15, 2009


They show the image on the shroud is one produced not from a body lying on a stone slab, but rather an image of a weightless body, perhaps levitating above its resting place.

The documentary also calls into question earlier findings about carbon dating tests that claimed the shroud dated back only to the Middle Ages.


The history of the Sudarium dates back to the 7th century in Spain. The blood types on both cloths were found to be AB. The pollen grains found on the Sudarium also match those found on the shroud."

The Man in the Shroud
(What the face looks like)

Alice said...

Fascinating stuff here today! Helen, I'm thankful that you brought this up and I've enjoyed reading both pros and cons. I think I may read more on the shroud after Christmas!

Scott said...

Mrs C - that DVD "Fabric of Time" is really really interesting to say the least. I've seen it a couple of times and would need several more viewings just to take in all of the information presented.

Rosa said...

I think the shroud is one of the end days lying signs and wonders that is bringing all people together in fake unity and the shroud is genuine, a real body so that’s why it looks genuine, but the guy isn’t Yeshua because the picture on the cloth has been shown to defy several important Scriptures, and that’s the bottom line for me. It passes many science tests, but science doesn't get everything right. the shroud doesn't pass the most important test of all, and thats the Bible test.

Helen said...

Whew! A lot to read and digest. :)

Thank you SO MUCH Mrs. C…and you too Caver for taking the time to gather ALL of this information. I have read it once, but, I will have to read it again for sure. I do hope it is saved here so it can be referred to over and over again. By me, and others who want to read this. I will also look into some of the information on DVD’s etc that have been mentioned here.

Now that I am thinking, I will copy and paste it into a Word document. :)

I still don’t have a conclusion as to my thoughts in the matter. After Christmas, I will read everything and be in prayer for the Lord to show me what He has for me.

Many, many blessings to ALL of you and I pray for you to have a very wonderful and blessed Christmas in Him.

Love you all,

P.S. Scott, in the future, I will certainly be more careful about asking questions.:)

Caver said...

Hi Miss Helen,

If I may....I want to put an underline, bold, and quote marks around one thing that was brought out in the extensive scientific test and recreations by secular scientist during their evaluations.

That finding was....the body had to be levitating slightly above the surface for these things to be visible in the detail it is when the impressions were transferred to the fabric.

You need to satisfy yourself that this is, in fact, what the conclusion says. If it is...a body 2000 years ago levitating in the air when a sudden burst of energy transferred the image to both the inside layer and outside layer of fibers without being imprinted in the middle layers of image so think on each of the upper and lower surfaces of fabric that its about the thickness of 1/100 the width of a hair sliced lengthwise.

I will not argue one way or the other....but let your God given ability to reason and the facts make its own unique case for each on their own.

And the Caver household sends that love right back at ya, Sis!

Scott said...

To the contrary - this is an interesting topic and this has been a great discussion!

Rosa said...

Levitating is a common trick done by demons for humans. Witches have been put up in to trees so not to be seen and made invisible so others cant see them,anything to fool what God has said in the Bible.

Helen said...

I wrote a thank you note, and it just disappeared. Poof! :)

Well, anyway, I wanted to thank Mary for the hugs! They are always needed. :)

And Alice for the encouragement. It is always appreciated too.

Finally to Scott, Caver and anyone else I may have missed.
It is great to feel welcome!


Caver said...

Helen said...
"I wrote a thank you note, and it just disappeared. Poof! :)"

Shucks, sounds like it just got ruptured. Is it our turn yet??

Dave DU said...

Hi Rosa, I was thinking about the fact you brought up about the levitating. "Maybe" WRT to this body it was in enough rigor to be able to be supported at both ends somehow to allow the photgraphing on the shroud. I dont know and I'm just taking a stab in the dark, but it could be a valid reason ( sometimes it helps to think outside the box ).

For me though this is all about evidence bridging the gap between the old and new testaments, between belief and unbelief and scientific evidence supporting biblical fact.

At the end of the day it's a great evangelistic tool to show gentiles and jews what the Saviour went through to give us the free and undeserved gift of eternal life with yaweh in heaven.

Merry Christmas, Dave

Scott said...

Helen, Let me check the "spam jail" !

Scott said...

I didn't find it Helen (but I did find a comment from Ally that was stuck in Spam)