From 29fd0f97b565ce5dbfd366aba90a49edeaacb579 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: el00ruobuob Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 13:25:05 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] Community Workgroup Meeting logs from 2018-09-15 --- | 401 ++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 401 insertions(+) create mode 100644 _posts/ diff --git a/_posts/ b/_posts/ new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7f455277 --- /dev/null +++ b/_posts/ @@ -0,0 +1,401 @@ +--- +layout: post +title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2018-09-15 +summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System updates, Workgroup report, Changelly r/Monero discussion, and miscellaneous +tags: [community, crypto] +author: el00ruobuob / SamsungGalaxyPlayer +--- + +# Logs + +**\** Welcome to the Monero Community workgroup meeting! +**\** +**\** Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support. Stay up to date with the latest events by subscribing to this calendar: +**\** 1. Greetings +**\** hello +**\** Hi :- ) +**\** hi +**\** Hola +**\** allo! +**\ \** hi +**\** welcome all, and thanks for your patience +**\** 2. Community highlights +**\** The Monero community led the way in reporting a MEGA chrome extension, which had been compromised: +**\** [REDDIT] Don't use MEGA Chrome Extension version 3.39.4 (self.Monero) | 263 points (99.0%) | 98 comments | Posted by gattacus | Created at 2018-09-04 - 16:26:06 +**\** Monero has seen recent increased adoption on Bisq, a decentralized exchange: +**\** [REDDIT] 98% of transactions on Bisq are XMRBTC ( to r/Monero | 218 points (94.0%) | 82 comments | Posted by geozdr | Created at 2018-09-11 - 07:29:42 +**\** A Monero community member made another WooCommerce plugin: +**\** [REDDIT] I made an open source plugin for accepting Monero XMR on WooCommerce sites (self.Monero) | 173 points (98.0%) | 28 comments | Posted by anticassette | Created at 2018-09-06 - 17:29:44 +**\** Monero was recently mentioned in a Bitcoin Magazine article: +**\** Does anyone else have community updates to share? +**\** The Monero community is dead :/ +**\** lol jk +**\** the 35c3 call is out and we want to get a lot of monero related talks in the main programme, see +**\** ^ I knew someone would have something :) +**\** .ded +**\** +**\ \** +**\** we finally managed to organize ho to embed the GUI guide in the binaries, from version 0.13.0, it will be included with the wallet files +**\** ty parasew txmr, I'll be sure to review these +**\** the guide is here: +**\** ErCiccione, do we have new files to translate? +**\** Oh, and I just finished my Monero Talk conversation: Along with other talks with Felix Honigwachs and Sarang Noether this past week +**\** [ Ring Signatures and more with Justin Ehrenhofer - YouTube ] - +**\** vp11: better talk about that later in the "workgroup report" point, but yes :) +**\** yup +**\** We can move on then to 3. FFS Updates. Lots to discuss +**\** Make sure to raise your hand if you have something you want to talk about for one of these +**\** lots to get through +**\** a. ErCiccione: +**\** Does anyone have concerns/questions about this proposal? +**\** fund him! +**\** look at that, unanimous approval :p +**\** thanks to all who support(ed) it :) +**\** o/ yes i have a question +**\** if somebody have questions, concern. Happy to answer +**\** why it's not approved yet? :P +**\** go ahead vp11 +**\** :P +**\** ikr +**\** hopefully we can get luigi1111 to move most/all of these after today's discussion +**\** b. Sarang: +**\** I'll take silence as a good thing +**\** down to funding please, we need a strong MRL +**\** this Sarang proposal is already in funding required with 10 contributions +**\** not much to discuss about sarang i guess, that's a fundamental FFS proposal +**\** just saw that Sarang got approved for funding, opening the wallet... +**\** oh, i have to give then +**\** \*intermission while we all donate, brb\* +**\** jk, but only about the intermission part, since we have more to cover! +**\** c. Justin/sgp: +**\** this is mine, happy to answer any questions +**\** I made sure to make good use of funds by staying in a 5 star hotel and renting a lambo. gotta make Monero look good /s +**\** lol +**\** there were some comments about adding print matierals. still working with the conference on that +**\** you got decent approval on the reddit thread and 3 comments on the forum, which is a lot :P so I feel like it should be moved to funding +**\** and you're asking a very reasonable amount +**\** and we all knoe 3 people is basically the entire Monero community +**\** +1 +**\** it's not like we need to make the whole community donate +**\** oh, and I have another conference next month in North Dakota, but the university is covering those costs +**\** yes down to donate, it's unfairly cheap! +**\** d. vp11: +**\** this one is mine, if you have any questions feel free to ask away +**\** vp11: did you talk with endogenic about MyMonero translations? +**\** I have to say, though, even if it doesn't get funded I will work on these translations, but in a different pace +**\** yeah selsta, he will make the files available soon(tm) +**\** selsta: i still have to talk with endogenic about mymonero translations, we spoke about it month ago, but never resolved +**\** oh okay, haven’t seen MyMonero translations yet, that’s why I asked +**\** I have to update the FFS to add the outreach material +**\** oh i didnt realize it was in my court +**\** let's sync up soon +**\** about vp11's proposal: i already explained the reason many times in past, but i don't endorse any FFS about translations, but vp11 is a very valuable member of the localization workgroup and did a great work in past +**\** anyway, I feel like the FFS didn't get a lot of support, I have no problem in trying to post it again on reddit in a few months when the market is hotter. maybe it will attract more interested parties. +**\** endogenic: yep, we need to talk about that when you have a sec +**\** FFS feel more tough in a bear market :/ +**\** e. zeagu: +**\** vp11: don't take it personal, in my experience, the community really understimate the value and importance of translations +**\** if we found a way to make it easy to purchase or exchange into monero just for the proposal it could increase our reach considerably +**\** ErCiccione, I never take anything personal :D +**\** it's all good +**\** i reached out to some of my tech networks about the noethers' proposal recently but these people probably dont have xmr laying around +**\** vp11: i meant the fact that feels like not many people supported your proposal +**\** endogenic, that's something we could ask binaryFate. some kind of integration with +**\** look at endogenic shilling for GloBee to be added to the forum :p +**\** would be actually a good feature imo +**\** ErCiccione, oh yeah, no worries though. I just thought it could be a good moment since danish and arabic translations went to funding required and were funded +**\** agreed vp11 +**\** anything on xeagu's request? +**\** anyone in favor of it? +**\** i don't see why it should not go to funding required +**\ \** me neither +**\** +1 +**\** if he's a valuable speaker +**\** it's kind of funny to put the noethers' struggling proposals next to the church of monero's proposal +**\** just my 2 millinero +**\** none have been heavily advertised yet +**\** f. moneromooo: +**\** is there any debate about moneromooo? +**\** who the hell is moneromooo, no way, delete it! /s +**\** recently reduced to 234 Monero +**\** I assume there is no debate here, but by all means, speak up so we can fight you +**\** don't really think there is much to discuss about mooo's proposal :P +**\** (mostly kidding about fighting, but of course we want to know if you have any major concerns) +**\** g. rehrar: +**\** rehrar is a top speaker +**\** I vote to move to funding required asap +**\** yeah his recent interview was on fire +**\** +1 +**\** he has been speaking in some interviews lately, the more he did the best it is +**\** yep, +1 +**\** +1 for rehrar, master improviser +**\** all right, so all proposals generally get favorable comments here. luigi1111, move them all please! :D +**\** any other FFS proposals I did not mention? +**\** or any last-minute comments about any of these proposals? +**\ \** we are thinking to do an FFS for CCC presence +**\ \** for transportation costs +**\ \** but this is just in ideation phase +**\ \** and should be discussed in another meeting +**\** is most of this documented in the Taiga link you shared earlier? +**\ \** not at all +**\** Sorry i just got disconnected after my previous message +**\ \** yet +**\ \** soon tm +**\** all right, let me know when you're ready so we can reserve some meeting time here +**\** 4. Workgroup report +**\** sgp_ ? +**\** ErCiccione, take it away +**\** +**\** damn, hold up for this one +**\** thanks sgp_ +**\** my bad el00ruobuob +**\** seriously sorry +**\** whoops, will wait +**\** no worry +**\** i got disconnected just as i o/ +**\** lots of support on the forum +**\** any comments here? +**\** if you have any idea to add to my todo list, feels free... +**\** +1 from me, always top quality work +**\** great, consider this unanimous support then :) +**\** All right ErCiccione, go ahead with your workgroup report +**\** :) +**\** ok +**\** so, first of all, so sorry i lost the last two meetings. i have a couple of big updates: +**\** 1. we finally got pootle (the translation platform) uploaded on getmonero, you can find it on , but please, do not subscribe, i'm still waiting to get shell access from pigeons, so that i can start the proper configuration +**\** but at least it's up, thanks to pigeons for that +**\** hell yeah :D +**\** that's the platform we will be using to manage most of the monero translations in future, it will make everything much consistent and easier. It will totally bypass GitHub (the platform will commit on the repo) +**\** 2. next release of the GUI (0.13) is near, as soon as the code is frozen i will make the "call for translators" as for 0.12. This to make sure all languages of the wallet will be properly updated. I got a great response last time, i hope this time will be the same +**\** count me in +\* shillo est maintenant connu sous le nom de shilloded +**\** also, i started to coordinate with lh1008 and the outreach workgroup. Soon i will update taiga so that the localization workgroup can officially take care of that +**\** thanks el00ruobuob, will ping you on the issue as soon as i open it +**\** for 0.13 we're going to be using pootle? +**\** vp11: nope, it's not ready yet and 0.13 will happen in a month. I want to be sure everything works properly first. Pootle will need some tweaking to work with some projects, like monerujo +**\** :'( ok +**\** that's why it's not gonna happen soon, we need to twak it to work with markdown, javascript etc +**\** s/twak/tweak +**\** ErCiccione meant to say: that's why it's not gonna happen soon, we need to tweak it to work with markdown, javascript etc +**\** Any other comments? Any other workgroups with updates? +**\** There will be a meeting for the CCC(C3) participation group, meeting next week Sept 22, 17:00 UTC on #monero-community. for in-between discussions we are using #monero-ccc +**\** Outreach Workgroup has released their PSA: +**\** [REDDIT] Monero Best Practices PSA [1 of 7]: A Secure Wallet is a Happy Wallet (Details in the comments) ( to r/Monero | 99 points (98.0%) | 15 comments | Posted by xmrhaelan | Created at 2018-09-10 - 20:19:13 +**\** that's awesome work ErCiccione, good luck on the pootle tweaks +**\** el00ruobuob, link with all of them compiled: +**\** thanks oneiric_ :) +**\** tomorrow it's gonna be the last one +**\** great initiative +**\** vp11, where are the translations on the site? +**\** oh got it +**\** 5. Changelly r/Monero discussion +**\** +**\** [REDDIT] Changelly has been removed from the list of services to avoid (self.Monero) | 22 points (66.0%) | 46 comments | Posted by needmoney90 | Created at 2018-09-11 - 19:48:13 +**\** There will be a followup post +**\** If you have comments, feel free to mention them now +**\** The Changelly proxy could be mentioned +**\** (if we discourage Changelly) +**\** iirc, Changelly was added to the list for its connections to MinerGate/Bytecoin/HitBTC, not for the KYC component +**\** I agree we should not tell people to \*avoid\* something for following local laws +**\** but the initial annoyance was for another reason +**\** i thin the point here is that the community don't trust them, and i understand that +**\** but for stealing people's money under the guise of local laws? +**\** hmm +**\** oneiric_ it's hard to prove unfortunately. I don't want to get too wrapped up in unaccounted scenarios +**\** i think best option here is to remove the "scam" label, but warn that the community don't trust them +**\** can we look at this issue from a different perspective? let's say... instead of saying what people should 'avoid' we can simply 'recommend' good alternatives and state that anything that is not listed isn't considered safe by the community. +**\** right, don't have personal experience with them either +**\** the problem is on the bold statements: "it's a scam" or "you should avoid it". +**\** +1 wp11 +**\** vp11\* +**\** yeah +**\** i do agree with vp11 +**\** maybe we can just recommend the services that we know are decent, and then state that everything else might pose a risk and that's it. +**\** you could argue that if everyone is getting scammed at, let's say, minergate, then it's our obligation to inform our new users +**\** and it's a very valid argument +**\** also agree with vp11, as it is a "recommendation" and not a listing of all services out there +**\** but now you have to keep updated on pretty much ALL services out there +**\** Does anyone else have any comments? Do you have any questions for us needmoney90? +**\** constantly checking their ToS and if they are currently scamming or not +**\** vp11: that could be a problem, how do you choose which services to suggest. What if there is a conflict of interest with some members of the community? don't know, playing devil's advocate here +**\** ErCiccione, that's fair. We choose the services that we have good community feedback that they work as intended. +**\** finally the community has the power to decide what is a good recommendation or not. if an ancient member of the community suggests a service and people have a bad experience, it's gonna get scrutinized. +**\** as it should +**\** the ultimate solution: not recommending anything. but then it's a disservice to the community because everyone has to look to solutions for themselves +**\** yep, that sounds good. I think it's fundamental to give the community proofs of why that service and not that one +**\** ErCiccione you mean no recommended services and just a list? or nothing linked at all? +**\** e.g. on the daily thread on r/monero and r/monerosupport I wrote Kraken as a recommendation to a fiat gateway to monero +**\** you could go and say that I'm somehow affiliated to Kraken +**\** but the fact is that they're one of the only old school exchanges that didn't get hacked and has monero fiat pairs +**\** and they have some decent community feedback +**\** which is enough to get a recommendation +**\** if they somehow start becoming a bad service, the community will speak up and it will get removed +**\** not because it became scammy, but because it's isn't reliable enough to become a recommendation +**\** parasew: no, i mean, i agree we should make a list, but with very good explanations of why we recommend that service and not another one. +**\ \** "these services are not scams, but you still need to do your own due dilly." +**\** the only problem i see is that if one of the services we recommend goes rogue, who get scammed can say "the monero community suggested me to use thatr" +**\** Sorry hey +**\** something like that. "these services received generally good community feedback, but you should always do your own due diligence and read their terms of service" +**\** OK so +**\** Here's the issue +**\** ErCiccione, yeah but you can't really avoid that. even MyMonero can go rogue if we just assume that. +**\** What do they do that others don't that is a scam +**\** And are we subject to libel laws if we say it baselessly +**\** vp11: IIRC mymonero don't hold private keys, even if they go rogue, the problem would be relative. endogenic correct me if i'm wrong +**\** They can do exactly what changelly can +**\** Anyone using the site at a given moment can get their funds snatched +**\** yep, true that +**\** There's even risk for selective scamming I believe, where they can send specific people a modded version of the source +**\** yeah, they can send the private key to their servers instead of processing locally in the browser +**\** Doesn't even need to be a blanket thing +**\** I think it's reasonable to change the perspective. Instead of listing services to avoid or labelling them as scams, we could simply make a 'recommended' list based on community feedback. +**\** Recommended and recommended avoid +**\** By community +**\** yes, i think that's the best solution +**\** Calling something a scam is gray +**\** I would prefer not to have that +**\** Unless like +**\** It is +**\** And "recommended avoid" can be for reasons as simple as "it's a centralized exchange, and our community prioritizes decentralization" +**\** In this case it's not clear imo +**\** Ehhh, then we need to also implicate +**\** yeah, I think we would need to give solid reasons for both cases of positive and negative recommendations. +**\** wut? +**\** Hm. Doesn't carry the same risks as changelly? +**\** In theory +**\** I know in practice not +**\** let's say it does, but then in the equation you have a variable called "community feedback" +**\** Changelly has accounts, but it's not verified, no emails are sent etc +**\** which is absolutely amazing for and horrible for changelly +**\** Yeah +**\** I think leaning on community consensus is fuzzy enough to work hete +**\** Here +**\** explain like I didn't follow the conversation? +**\** I imagine binaryfate can just as easily freeze a transfer if he wanted, there's no mechanical difference in control between changelly and +**\** if a recommended service starts to deteriorate, people will speak up on r/monero. then we can have a discussion in a community meeting to see if we should remove it from the recommendations. +**\ \** the line is pretty clear at 'they will not directly steal from you', right? centralized or not? +**\** I wish it was that simple +**\** There's a few facets +**\ \** obviously we can have our opinions about bisq being the best exchange, but on this kind of all encompassing yes/no list. there has to be a clear determinant +**\** I mean, let's see freewallet for a moment. I actually think a custodial wallet is the right choice for some people, but we label them as scam because they have some affiliation with the bytecoin team and they're shady as fuck. +**\** AND the community posted so many times bad things about them that I can't even count +**\** the "community feedback" is the key thing. if we have good feedback and people talking good things about a service, we as a community could (should?) recommend it to the new users looking for similar services. +**\ \** yep +**\** changelly has also a weak reputation on "web of trust", see +**\** creating a list of positive and negative recommendations is not necessarily easy, but we will come up with the good formula after some trial & error. +**\** probably to get a service listed it should be on the market for a X amount of time, maybe the developer should come up in a meeting and talk about the service to create an open channel for communication (which increases trust), et al +**\** vp11 so there should be guidelines written for the process? +**\** maybe, probably. at least some kind of discussion before adding services randomly. even if we come up with guidelines we will come up with them later +\* ChanServ a donné l'état d'opérateur de canal à rehrar +**\** sorry I missed the meeting. With sarang right now. +**\** It's ongoing +**\** Giving our presentations at Discover Blockchains tomorrow +**\** oh sorry sorry sorry +**\ \** what about "recommended" "neutral" "scamy" something like that? +**\** longer than meeting than normal and was delayed +**\** you also don't want a truckload of work in keeping the list updated with ALL the services out there. +**\** txmr: "scammy" might be a problem, as @needmoney90 pointed out +**\** you need a small, concise list of proven services that the community uses for a long time and that we have some kind of communication with the owners/developers/something (preferably) +**\** agree with vp11, let's not overcomplicate it +**\** and another concise list with the services that the community said are trash over and over +**\** something like "there have been a number of reports of various undesired behavior. Be careful when using these services" +**\** nm is that in the legal clear? +**\** Even undesired behavior is a bit weird for changelly +**\** When you hit the $25k limit they require KYC +**\** Otherwise the checkbox doesn't even appear +**\** I think its 25k, 1btc doesn't trip it and 5 does +**\** "there are a high number of threads of people complaining about these services" +**\** were all the reports transacting over $25k? +**\** They don't say so, but I highly suspect so +**\** Or whatever the AML limit is in Europe +**\** They didn't inform users beforehand of that, leading to accusations +**\** Theyve added a checkbox when your tx exceeds AML directive limits +**\** I'm really not sure what else they \*can\* do at this point +**\** And please, if there's something I'm unaware of I can point to, please inform me +**\** bad rep from the users? goes into the 'not recommended' list. now, how they can get removed? maybe by asking the mods? maybe they can only ask for a removal after 6 months without any thread talking bad about them? +**\** What if the grievance is cleared up? +**\** then people will complain +**\** as with the current situation +**\** hold on let me makes some more reddit accounts +**\** rehrar, that's only because there's no process established on how to deal with it. +**\** that's why I talked about trial & error, I have no idea of what would be good enough +**\** let's say 6 months later, no one complained and they message needmoney90 saying that they fixed their problems, etc. +**\** they get removed from 'not recommended' but they don't go to 'recommended', they go nowhere. +**\** The mods\* +**\** I was just a mouthpiece for that thread +**\** vp11: you underestimate the people that will complain regardless +**\** Got crucified by the community anyways +**\** then community comes up and say "wtf THEY ARE SCAM PLS" +**\** I still love you nm +**\** but then we have some kind of process in place that the community should be aware, eg every 6 months without a complain about the service, if requested, they're removed from the list. +**\** and this is only because we thing that it's worthwhile to inform our users of bad services +**\** because the obvious solution is to created a "recommended" list and that's all +**\** if people get scammed by minergate, freewallet and changelly -- too bad for them. +**\** That's not an option either yeah +**\** +1 for vp11, have two categories, and a clear process to get in or out of each of them +**\** so I think we should come up with some kind of process, just a rough draft, and implement it ASAP so we can test and see what works and what doesn't, and then we can change as needed. +**\** couldn't there be this "recommended services list" which would be in a textfile on meta for example? would make the process of maintainence easier (pull requests) +**\** this is one of the possible ways to handle the process. once we agree there should be one, it's a question to come up with something that would work for the mods and implement it. +**\** Does anyone else have any other statements to add to this discussion? +**\** All right then. Let's do a quick "5. Open ideas time" in case someone has any closing thoughts +**\** I have some Wikipedia updates. +**\** go ahead +**\** After Fireices litte “Ties to white supremacy movements” attack, Jytdog seems to have noticed it and mostly reverted it. +**\** whoa, I missed this +**\** Jytdog :D +**\** There is still a mention in the history section, but it is way better now. +**\** selsta, I was under the impression that it wasn't fireice who added that? +**\** vp11: it was fireice 2 weeks ago +**\** "After many online payment platforms shut down access to white nationalists following the Unite the Right rally in 2017, some of them, including Christopher Cantwell and Andrew Auernheimer ("weev"), starting using and promoting Monero.[13][14]" +**\** I am convinced he is just trying to make the article as small as possible. Bad info? good info? Nah, none of it. +**\** rehrar: Jytdog helped us this time +**\** yeah +**\** I have something for community discussion (really fast, I promise) after this is done +**\** o/ +**\** that’s it from my side :) +**\** i have something too +**\** yay +**\** ok me first +**\** selsta, oh i found it +**\** Whonix wants to collaborate with us on some level. +**\** go ahead +**\** +**\** Whonix is one of the big guns of privacy. +**\** i PMd firece on reddit, his answer made me realized he is really out of his mind. totally no point to argue with him +**\** rehrar: exciting! +**\** I will be following up with TNT. I'll let you guys know how it goes +**\** rehrar, that's cool, whonix is a very good project +**\** Sorry for going back to wikipedia, but it was obviously fireice: +**\** yes it was him +**\** rehrar yes I saw that, glad to see it's still going somewhere +**\** sgp_: he also claimed on Telegram that he is working on getting the article locked, so we should keep eyes on the article. +**\** actually, i used monro with whonix in past and worked smoothly, i should let them know +**\** selsta ugh, I may have to put other things on hold this weekend and make some necessary emergency quality edits +**\** el00ruobuob go ahead +**\** i have some concerns about the move to for monero-site. It seems the word has not been spread. +**\** Shouldn't we rewrite the Readme to point to point to the new repo? +**\** it's been quite since the move +**\** there should be at least some reference, yes +**\** I think the intent is to make this the main source +**\** probably better to see what the devs want to do, then we can help them out +**\** el00ruobuob: mooo himself continues working on the Github repo at the moment, as far as I can see. +**\** the move only concerns monero-site +**\** as a test +**\** oh, you are right +**\** el00ruobuob: that's more a dev related question, and yes, the migration was planned long ago, but it happened very suddenly +**\** i don't think any other repo will be moved before next hard fork +**\** Kovri is on gitlab too, not sure if there are plans to mirror to +**\** yes, it was quite a surprise when i read it live from fluffy on #monero-dev +**\** hahahaha!!! That wikipedia article says Monero is headed by luigi +**\** pff everyone knows it's headed by Lord Diego. +**\** All right, unless someone has anything pressing, we can finally wrap this meeting up +**\** i was sure it was headed by sgp_ +**\** 7. Confirm next meeting date/time +**\** The next community meeting will be two weeks from today on 29 September at 17:00 UTC. When in doubt, use the calendar: +**\** 7. ConclusionThat’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU. +**\** Thanks everyone for making it through a 2 hour meeting +**\** thank you guys! +**\** thank you for the moderation sgp_ +**\ \** thanks! have a good one. great show today sgp :-) excited to see rehar tomorrow +**\** thanks all +**\** much love -- 2.26.2