After the deluge

The waters are receding, but the damage done to Pakistan will take years—and better government—to undo

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Readers' comments



dark lord


The old testament specifically allows slavery and Christianity not being involved in slavery in the past is hogwash.



Pakistan is already a lost cause. It was torn apart by incompetent egoistic leaders. There have always been repeated calls, like the one you just made, from everywhere to clean up the mess those leaders have created.
Other than giving some of my hard earned money to charity, I would be at a loss to try to make any tangible difference there. The wounds will heal, even if a generation remains undernourished. They were always undernourished anyway. The people bound to make any significant changes in Pakistan will come through this unscathed. Food will grow again and cows will calve and give milk again. It is a tragedy for those poor, helpless souls, but they're not the players of tomorrow.

There is potential of recruitment by the Taliban. Young teenagers, hungry and disillusioned, can be easily turned into sharp fighters.

Maybe India should consider paying protection money to Pakistan!

Nobody cares if Pakistan disappears into private pockets. Pakistan failed to become an Islamic state. It has no warrant to exist.



Absolutely - A system has to evolve to make it better. Mistakes are criticized, analyzed, and procedures changed. new checks and balances are put into place, incompetent people are sacked, and new talent is put into place.
At the moment you have the worst President, and only by accident.he will not be there long.A new President wil come in - Or you could take a short cut, and have a coup.
For most of Pakistan's post-independence history you have been ruled over by the Military - so the course ofm Pakistan's history has mostly been set by them. When civilians have been elected, they have always looked sideways to the army for direction.
So most of your problems have been created by your military.Your Press have never really criticised the military. You have never really had a free press. This is always the linchpin of a progressive society.
Without a totally free press, you cannot weed out the incompetent. Without free and fair elections, you cannot respond to the population's needs - In fact Pakistan is one of the few countries where land reform has never happened. And it probably never will, unless you have a party that forces the issue.

@Dark lord

I understand, from all my christian, and from having conversed with Christian priests, that Christians, whilst not discarding the old testament,give priority to the new testament, which follows jesus's teaching.
Take an example - The old testament teaches ' an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth'
The new testament teaches ' turn the other cheek'
Rarely, when the new testament has omitted something, then the Christians will look to the old testament.

Incidentally - In present day - only the Muslims have slaves and trade in slaves ( mostly in Africa)

dark lord

district admin is all fine and dandy but what does it have to do with immigration.

>>Continuous migration from rural to urban centres, indirectly, impacts on the importance of Dt. Administration. Rural sectors begin to languish under serious neglect. None thinks about 'flood control' measures when the population is depleting any way!! You see those connections?

No, I dont see those links. Flood control, if linked with population only highlights the shortfalls, it is not how the system is supposed to be. By the way, given Mumbai is the most dense city in India, it should have the best flood control system (apparently it aint so). So A) flood control is not linked to population rather linked to how much it is relevant to people of the area and B) Frequency of floods, damage caused, quality of governance etc.

>>This is true even in developed countries. Rural areas in Australia, NZ and, perhaps, in USA, cannot get doctors and dentists to cater for them.
Bullshit. India had highly populated rural areas since independence but we never had doctors and dentists (forget it, we cannot even find enough primary health care workers) to take care of them anyways. Migration is linked to quality of health care in India. You definitely get better health care in Indian cities.

>>You may know that in many parts of India, there is scarcity of agricultural labour.
Consolidate, Mechanize and mass produce. You may also realize that in almost all parts of india there is hidden unemployment and overuse of physical labor.

>>"I can earn a Rs.60 per day, with lunch, as a field labourer, whereas I can earn twice or thrice that money as an industrial worker with excellent lunch for Rs.10/- at the subsidised staff canteen [ a great feature of India!!]

Or, even opening up a 'hole-in-the-wall' 'pan / parak/cigarette' shop, I can make Rs.500/- on a full days retail. Why would I stay stuck in my village??"
so, abbajaan, why the hell do you want to work in the village doing labor which is completely useless, does not provide sustenance or education to your kids (who then will join you as agri labor), makes Indian agriculture uncompetitive as compared to foreign countries and where you would not get any health care.

>>So, Mahat. Gandhi was not 'pontificating', nor am I, when he spoke about 'industrialisation with caution'. He was not against industrialisation in total.
Sirji, I dont know about Gandhi. But it is high time people in India stopped using Gandhi as a weapon against Industrialization. India is not changing into an industrialized country without so called "caution". We have followed this Gandhi 'principle' (I am pretty sure Gandhi would have dumped it when he saw that 'caution' was not working. Cannot say the same about his 'followers') for 40 odd years without really helping our citizens. Time to shed it off.

>>With Indian cities averaging at 12 to 19 million population, with growth of slums recorded at between 15 to 20% in each of these cities, are you aware of the full price of the neglect of rural areas?

You think America, UK, France never saw slums while industrialization.

Please think about the following questions and to get to where I am coming from:
1) Do people in slums want to go back to their villages?
2) Do people get better opportunities (Health and education) in slums as compared to villages?
3) If you think slums are squalor, do think of their living conditions in the villages. Were they better?
4) Do amenities in urban areas better than rural areas (water, electricity etc)
5) Have they been forced to come to the cities?

People who advice about the great district administrations in rural areas have never lived in one and more often than not, are urban folks romanticizing the great indian village (where food is plentiful, water is sweet, people care about each other, villagers are sweet, innocent folk unlike corrupted city folk, etc). This image needs a reality check.

>>"By tradition and male unwillingness, local women are not 'allowed' any serious involvement in the Dt. Administration...I used the term with that in mind. I am as clear in my mind, as you are, on the role women need scope to play."
convoluted explanation accepted. :)

dark lord

"The muslims always have the best ideas!!!"

Hmm, I think u forgot a few of those muslim ideas like
- no political freedom
- no freedom for women
- no human rights
- no education - quran is the be all and end all
- those 19 who flew the plans on 911
- OBL and taliban

the list of the best ideas of muslims is endless :P


old fruit 2

Dorks rule the world apparently, don't they?
The western European countries wre suffering from falling birthrates, so they thought it would be a good idea to import young labour craft from dorkistan. Well I suppose now the sails have to be trimmed and a new course has to be set. How to make retirement payments to people who refuse to die before they're 100 years old when there aren't any working dorks left.
Maybe they ought to rotate the dorks in shifts. When one shift gets tired after a few decades, send them back and recruit fresh ones.

The europeans could learn a lot from the Saudis, Kuwaitis and Dubaians. The muslims always have the best ideas!!!

dark lord


"Christianity was never invoked in slavery, but it was when abolishing slavery in both the USA and the UK."

I agree that slavery is allowed in Islam/Koran. But the church (rather than christians) did play a role in slavery. During the centuries of slavery in US, the church never took a stand. The church allowed the bible to be used as a justification for slavery. In the american civil war, both north and south (both christian) proclaimed god to be on their side. If it makes you feel better, the church (institution) deserves contempt whereas Christians (people currently alive and who have nothing to slavery) do not.

The church has a bloody history. Its just that Christians in the western europe (and to a large extent american) came out of its influence.

By the way, there is a guy called Joesph Kony who wanted to set up a theological state in Congo (based on 10 commandments) and recruited child soldiers for this 'holy' task.

dark lord


Agree with you. I though you were giving a free pass to the church.

@old fruit 2

"We non-islamic peo;ple need to make a distinction between Shia and Sunni Muslims , and pit one against the other, to keep them occupied."

WTF. on one hand, u praise the shias for getting educated (doubt it though, Iran is very regressive) and on the other hand condemn them to fight with the sunnis?



Perhaps Pak - you might find this relevant

IT is all about Denmark

'Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmarks' 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the countrys' convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslims. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.'


and this





Hate to be in your shoes - unwelcome everywhere, slowly withdrawing into an Islamic shell , and goading 14year olds into suicide bombing.

I might also bring to your notoice - the rate of usage of welfare, by Muslims in the UK and France and the Netherlands is just as high.

They have got much out of it - they tend to be the poorest,least educated, and knuckle headed, just as in Pakistan.

Now if you talk about the Shia Muslims - very different matter. Look at the higher rate of education in Iran, much higher standard , and a much better uptake.

The Iranian's overseas, tend to make a lot more money overseas, are alwauys much better educated, and rarely on welfare.




Only the foolish and half-wits would not notice the hugh swing to the right in Sweden's elections. This happens to be a reaction against the muslim's.
You may not, but most of us will notice the subtle discrimination against Muslims, in all those Scandinavian countries. Very few Muslims will be allowed into Scandinavia - already marriages below the age of 24 are banned.
There is talk of restricting welfare to Muslims.

But you would not have noticed - you need to be literate to read the news.


Old fruit 2


Wow! what does that tell you about the Danes? So finally you have proof that asian muslims are smarter than Scandanavians. The Danes seem to like the way things are going there, because aopparently they're too shy to politely tell the asian Muslims to go home and not to come back.

"A fool and his money are soon departed".... King Solomon


"I wasn't alive at the time of Pakistan's creation, but to my mind it was intended as a homeland for Indian people who subscribe to the religion of Islam."

Being alive at the time has nothing to do with the situation at hand, i feel that your leaders during the creation of pakistan did not take into account the logic of their arguments, they were gong ho on the creation at any cost. The fact that you feel this way that you have to bring to an argument the fact that you were not alive during such event tells me your dissatisfaction of such events. Your leaders at the time of the creation of pakistan should have thought about individuals like yourself as to how would you think 100 years from the day.

TO be frank with you, it was a cop out, and muslims with their economic problems chose to run away from their problems. Now i am sure you by now have realized that your problems do not run away, even if you physically choose to run away, you just have to deal with your problems where ever you are. I know talk is cheap, but working towards solving your problems is not easy, I hope you have stayed in pakistan and have faced all the problems in your stay in pakistan, and have not run away to some foreign country to escape your economical issues in the land of pure.

you have chosen to argue your point with falling behind the creation of Israel, this argument has more holes then swiss cheese. But that is for another time, lets put it this way i had a chance to visit a concentration camp in germany and i have been thankful to have been living in india, lets just put it this way to keep things in somber tone.



Hitler was an altar boy - But he never invoked the bible or jesus when he started his Holocaust.

Stalin was not a christian, once a he became a communist- But the Taliban all claim to be, and in fact they clearly tell us that Islam is the reason for their actions.
I will not dwell on Judaism and Palestine, because it is much more complex then just religion.
But I will tell you this - the people who bomb and terrorise , always Invoke Islam.
And You are the only one who suggests that these people are not Islamic. And again only because it seems to your arguments.

However, the hero of islam, Osama Bin laden, tell us that he did, and does it all for Islam.
And of course you are the only one who does seem to have heard that the bombing in pakistan are against the Impure of islam - the shia's and the Ahmedias.
And as hermasumal has said , all of pakistan is solely based on religion - Your President had to swear that he is a Muslim, as he was sworn into the Presidential office.
In fact even in Iraq - religion is the cause of many muslims killing other Muslims

You have not really reasoned with any of my points - they are all factual. Not a single point has been made for or against them.All you seem to repeat is that this is nothing to do with Islam, despite all the overwhelming evidence.
And as for 9/11 , I beleive that Osama promised the suicide Bombers 27 virgins in Heaven, as a promise from Islam.
You may be the only one in Islam denying that this is nothing to do with Islam.
Last, but not least, 9/11 was never mentioned in my last comment - But since you have, I might point out to you that there are a few million people in the USA who are, who continue to remember it with the CORDOBA project.AND they, plus the Imam proposing the project, overwhelmingly believe that Islam was the reason behind that incident.


Here we go again... the world was worried and discussing about their floods but they seem to be occupied with sectarian killings... damn

"Karachi, Sept 20 (PTI) Pakistan's biggest city Karachi was again hit by riots and violence, with at least 15 people killed so far since last night, following the killing of a young man in targeted shooting.Police and paramilitary rangers said 15 people had died in different parts of the city since last night in target killings or exchange of fire between groups or between miscreants and law enforcement agencies.Rescue officials, however, said the death toll was 16 and a number of wounded people had been shifted to hospitals from violence-hit areas, some of whom were in critical condition."The trouble started after a young man was killed in target shooting in Rizvi society Sunday night," a police official said.Violence flared up today when shots were fired at the funeral procession of the deceased who belonged to the Shia sect.Leaders of the Shia sect accused the paramilitary rangers of opening fire on the procession as it was returning after burying the dead.But a Rangers' spokesman said the para-military forces had only retaliated after straight shots were fired at them from the funeral procession.The violence soon spread to many parts of the city including Nazimabad, Gulshan-e-Iqbal and Rizvi Society where Rangers and police conducted a joint search operation to nab miscreants involved in setting vehicles, shops and petrol pumps on fire in the area.The city has been hit by a wave of violence and targeted killings since the beginning of this year.Government officials say more than 350 people have been killed in target killings and related violence in Karachi this year.Deputy Convener of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) Coordination Committee, Farooq Sattar today said a fresh wave of targeted killings has been started to undermine peaceful atmosphere in the city and held the "government, particularly, Provincial Home Ministry" responsible for it."Attempts are being made to disturb the peace of the city since last night and this has resulted in death of two MQM workers so far," he said."



You ned to worry about the future of Pakistan. It is quagmire that it has got into.
For example, the 20 million people who are homeless, will be homeless for a very long time. They will have babies, who will be badly malnourished, leaving you with an eventual large population of low IQ people.
The famine that you are going to have, now is unimaginable, because of the amount of crop lost.
If you look at the world price of Grain, it is rising steeply, mainly because of the drought in Russia, and the floods in China and Pakistan.
This is going to lead to other parts of the population being malnouriished - another large drop in IQ.
And of course , despite commitments to the contrary, a lot of the aid given to Pakistan will disappear into private pockts and army budgets.
The process of this whole problem was germinated more then 50 years with ago, with Yahya Khan.

And you need someone with a very strong character and willpower, plus Longevity to get you out of this.

By the way you guys keep on harping away about about how wonderful Jinha was.
Look what you and your intolerance did to his wife.


@dark lord.

I could not agrre more - In fact, a more recent form of slavery, called apartheid, was totally justified by the Dutch reformed church.
So, yes it is true, that some of the Christians use the bible too their own ends, and the church usually looks the other way.
In fact, one can only condemn the Catholic pope being silent in Hitler's time.

But you miss the whole point - November does the same - he justifies his arguments by using religion. But he denies that religion has been the cause of Pakistan's troubles. And yet the overwhelming truth is that wherever there is trouble in Pakistan, or where Pakistani's cause trouble elsewhere, Islam is invoked as the reason for the violence.
That is the culture of Islam , and it overwhelms any other culture inherited by Muslims.
That is the very basis of our argument, here.
Look around you - In the Phillipines and Thailand , In xin Jiang, In Chechnya, In Sudan, and Somalia, In lebanon and Iraq.
It is so overwhelming that even moderate Muslims will not rally against it.

this culture has led to a very low standard of education, which keeps the Mullahs happy, since no-one is going to challenge their superstition, and bad Governance in every islamic majority country.
The exceptions are Malaysia, Indonesia, and Turkey.
In fact the poorest of them all (forgetting bangladesh0 , Pakistan, has the worst governance of all.
In every list of failed states, Most Islamic countries figure prominently. And Pakistan is usually at the top - and nowadays most Pakistani's overseas are too ashamed to admit that they are from Pakistan. too often i find that they like to call themselves Indian muslims.
That, unfortunately, is the state of Pakistan, and the Pakistani diaspora.



Tolerance, man, tolerance

The crisis in Pakistan has everything to do with the nature of nit's government, the culture of it's people etc etc

All the comments are relevant. In fact the UN has asked Pakistan to sign a covenant that they will not misuse the money given to them , for the very same reasons.

You need to have some indepth un derstanding of the relevance of all the comments and an understanding of why you have a crisis.


Absolutely agree the conclusio,i.e., "..though the country’s politicians may be a sorry lot, their correction is better left to the voters."
The greatest malady we have here in Pakistan is over-politicization of every segment of society and institutions. Instead of joining the regular political system, preparing/ organizing themselves to provide better alternative and waiting for their turn, our men of high talent, civil/ military beauraucrat, member of judiaciary or media take upon themselve the "Electrorate's" role are not as much talented and resourceful. This is what happens everywhere in the beginning years of democracy. The country has to pass through this muddle; unfortunately, there is no sustainable shortcut to that. Let's never look for the short cuts; let's be patient and toil through. We should have learnt our lesson from the Four military dictatorship shortcuts that we took in the past. Let's keep ourselves depoliticised until election time. By that time let the alternative leaderships prepared themselves to provide better governance in future.



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