The euro crisis

The Greek run


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I think this is good idee. Many peopel coming to Germany and Nederlands from PIIGS for washing dishes and cleaning floor and emty trash can. They have good salary and they save money for children and future.

Better than stay in house all day saying this German's fault and why Merkel is not wanting give us more money. They are making me very angry. Always fault of German's.

emmafinney in reply to Unterhosen

Are you actually going to pay them?

Well some American POW's who were used as slave labor in Germany are still waiting for their pay.






mr_Arcadian in reply to Unterhosen

@ unterhosen
I am glad to see that your level of english is equal to your understanding of economics.
We have in Greece nearly 70000 immigrants, many of them stuck here thanks to the lisbon treaty, perhaps we should issue them with travelling papers for your country, they would be glad to clean,cook and take the trash out for you, would you accept them?.

Sycorax in reply to emmafinney

Oh please, don't give us that usual "heroism and sacrifice" crap.
Of course every American soldier was a hero. Even those that pissed their pants at Monte Cassino.
And if you haven't noticed, the topic is Greece and the Eurozone.
As far as I am aware, the US (well claim to be American) is not part
of the Eurozone. So why do you not just get lost and let us Europeans
deal with it ? Oh, no job, no hobby ? Sorry, not our problem.

Marie.Claude in reply to mr_Arcadian

mind you, the Germanz would deliver them across our border, like they used to do with the Turks when they didn't have work to give them anymore, it's how we got a Turkish community, whereas our was rather Maghrebin

emmafinney in reply to Sycorax

Your ignorance is astounding.

Germany by involving the IMF in eurozone bailouts seems determined that Americans, Canadians, Australians, Brazillians & Indians who had nothing to do with the creation of the euro should pay for Germany & EU's stupidity and blunder in allowing Greece into the eurozone.

You don't want Americans to comment on the euro crisis but you want their money through IMF contributions to pay for Germany and EU's blunders?

Projecting German behavior onto the Italians?

Birtnick in reply to Sycorax

"So why do you not just get lost and let us Europeans deal with it ?"

Well this here European knows a thing or two about what happens when "Europeans deal with it" as you -so politely- point out.

"Oh, no job, no hobby ?"
Oh dear. Standard tactic of abuse from an eurofantic.
(She probably works online like millions of others worldwide. Or does this not entitle her to an opinion, despite Theodor von Guttenberg's best efforts in Brussels on internet censorship in Europe?)

Besides, the Canadian poster to whom you refer is ancestrally European as are most North Americans, so don't you think that after all the blood they also shed in Europe, that they are entitled to be concerned about tendences in our continent?

Unterhosen in reply to emmafinney

'Are you actually going to pay them?'

Yes, of course we pay them about 7€ for one hour. This more than in Greece where they look in trash cans. In germany they have chance for future and the children.

I never hear American slaves in Germany. This GWB propaganda because germany was not wanting Irak war!

against protectionism

I hate listening about suffering of southern europeans with staggering unemployment rates. But the truth is that EU is a one big labour market - if you cannot find a job in your country, go to another one!!! Look at unemployment rate charts and why not to go to Austria, Denmark or even Germany. Ok, language can be a barrier, but clearly there are jobs like dishwasher, cleaner etc. that don't require linguistic fluency. Work there one two three years and when the employment situation gets better in your country simply go back...Foreign employment is the eastiest for young people but actually in Greece and Spain the youngsters don't have the job...)So problem solved (the solution is called FLEXIBILITY!!!)

against protectionism

I've been thinking recently that when companies go bust then their assets are sold to pay off the debt, so if it look like Greece is a busted country why then interested companies and countries cannot buy Greek public companies (energy, telecomunication and so on). It would reduced both debt and deficit and everyone would be happy - greeks because of lower burdens and the rest would have at least something instead of the constant flow of donating!!!

against protectionism

If you need a charity go to the red cross, but if you made a big mess you MUST pay the price!!! Exit from euro zone would make Greece much more competitive (and over the top greek wages, pensions and so on would go down to a normal level). Of course Greeks won't be very happy about that but they have been living on credit for so long (with cheap credit available as a euro zone country) but now it's time to have bread and water instead of lavish siestas (at least for some time). And then the rewards will come ie. higher employment and so on!!!

Multi-Moniker Psycho Mod


1. Euro Bonds: No

2. Investment and Growth for Europe's Periphery Nations: No

3. Austerity: Yes

4. Adequate Economic Restructuring: No

5. Results of June Greek Elections: Pro austerity parties Pasok and Nea Democratia garner a large enough majority to form a working coalition, and accept the terms of austerity to receive further bailouts, claiming a victory for the Greek people, because Europe has conceded to at least "look" at growth.

Conclusion: Nothing changes, but nothing meaningful gets done either. In the end, all of this will fail of course, but we have not reached the end of this ill advised common currency journey, YET.

Marie.Claude in reply to Birtnick

American impression, suite:

" they weren’t “estimations” as much as worst-case scenarios; but in glossing over the risk, I think you’ve made some poor assumptions. For example, when you wrote: “What ALWAYS happens is that the counter-parties to the embezzlist nation cut up the credit card.”

That only works when the lenders are strong and the embezzlers are weak. (Argentina, for example) But what happens when EVERY nation is an “embezzlist nation”, and they know that they have to keep the game going just to keep themselves alive? Most of the storyline of survivability comes down to blind faith in the financial strength of the Germans; but look closely and you will see that the *Entire* German economy is dependent on exports to the poorer countries of the EU. THAT’S why they have to keep financing Greece, and Spain, and Italy, and Portugal; not only has the Bundesbank loaded up on their debt in order to support them, they know that when those economies go into steep decline all of Germany’s economic strength goes with them.

Germany has an export driven economy; what will happen when their export markets collapse? Especially when the only hope for financial salvation is leveraged on the strength of that one export driven economy?

One of the primary reasons I find the current situation so worrisome is that if you take the optimistic scenario and track down the supposed strengths to their core, you instead find some glaring weakness that everyone is scared to acknowledge.

For example, more and more people are saying that Greece should simply default on its obligations and be done with it. (and I think that is about to happen)
But they have not considered some of the ramifications, for Greeks, of such a default. Something around 89% of all the assets of *all* Greek pension systems and the Greek social security system are invested in Greek government debt; the day they default, every pension fund in Greece and the Greek social security system all go *poof*. (Why did they do this? high interest rates, plus it was mandated by the government because they needed the money to prop up their debt markets. We’re doing the same thing)

There are only 2 ways out of the mess, and we will see it play out in Greece before we get to see it play out here (but the timeline isn’t that long for us either)

Scenario 1) a coherent government holds together and nationalizes all financial institutions, along with most means of production, as the only way of holding things together. Massive inflation is induced as a way to keep things going, and the standard of living drops dramatically, but society survives.

this is the *best* case scenario.

Scenario 2) no one emerges to lead, and no coherent government holds together in the face of the crisis. In this scenario, large cities fall into Mogadishu type anarchy and chaos as financial systems revert to a hard cash only basis and food and energy supplies are cut off. A few months of this and provisional military governments can be expected to establish some form of control, with martial law declared.

that’s the end game Greece is looking at. Some combination of the two is headed for the US; for example, I can see Texas holding onto a democratic form of government while large parts of California fall into pure anarchy, for example. But the scenario where we just do some financial rejiggering and things go along like before? Ain’t gonna happen."

Marie.Claude in reply to Marie.Claude

part 2

"concerning the Red Pepper article, and Trichet’s quote about the attitude of the EU bureaucracy: ‘If parliaments do not give us what we want, we will annul them’

Of course it is an anti-democratic one but the ironic thing is that much of what he says is true. He just doesn’t realize the incredible weakness of his own position, and weakness that is glaringly obvious to any uninvolved 3rd party.


That’s actually a true statement, although he may not really understand why. When people vote for parties that simply want to pass out money and tear up all the books, that nation is headed for ruin and their democracy will collapse into dictatorship.

Trichet’s great flaw is thinking that he and his financial cohorts can exert any kind of control over that resulting dictatorship without any armies or any political will to support his dreams. All he has is money and the veneer of authority; and yet the man who in the end will control the armies in the streets will easily take his money away from him, and with it any authority he had. We’re almost back to mid 400′s Italy, where the last western Roman Emperors thought they could control the barbarians with the Glory and Majesty of their throne, even though the barbarians had all the armies and all Rome had left was a handful of self-seeking palace guards.

Trichet’s other truth and folly is that he’s right when he speculates that the EU cannot survive unless it moves into some much more direct political union under centralized control. That part is true – but again, because the EU has no armies or true grassroots supp,rt, it will always be unable to take this step. That which cannot survive will not survive, and thus Trichet’s own logic leads to the conclusion that the EU is about to collapse. They know what they need to do to survive, and yet they do not have the strength to do it. All they can do is print money to keep the problems papered over for a few more days at a time, but time is finally running out.

Does anyone really think that the US and Chinese financial systems will survive the death of Europe? Tell me how you think that will play out."

Marie.Claude in reply to Marie.Claude

Obama, in spite of his large smiles (and of his Nobel price for peace), is involving the army as part of streets guerillas anti-fightings, it seems that the elites are scared by the Lumpen Proletariat, Europe will take gloves for applying the same recepts, but it will be inevitable

see who is the Interior Minister in France, Manuel Vals, it doesn't look that the man will adopt a low profile if such a situation occur, where mobs would annoy. He was Mayor of one of the biggest southern Parisian subburban cities, Evry

Always good to hear from you Marie. Had a wonderful lunch today. Gigantes (Giant white beans) in red sauce. A Greek company makes them and sells them here to a German owned supermarket chain specializing in whole organic foods. Good stuff!

In comparison, we went to a Greek restaurant here on Long Island for Mother's Day, just the other day. The place garnered rave reviews in the NY Times, which means close to nothing of course. Sometimes I wonder if these food critics even know what good food should look and taste like.

I ordered a table full of appetizers, and we ate like the Greeks do. The boiled greens were like shoelaces, and their Gigantes weren't cooked enough either. The darn things finished boiling in my stomach, with the aid of several glasses of wine of course...laughs

Of course, friendship always comes first brother. Enjoying my time off. Take long walks in the park and laugh a the joggers. Nice to have some much needed time off in the city that never sleeps.

Last night I went to my son's Orchestra concert. He plays the Cello you know, and I couldn't help but notice that he was sitting next to a very lovely young lady, and I though to myself: My God! Where did the time go?

I find myself wanting to take him to Greece, before it's too late, and he either forgets, or has a family of his own, and is too busy to spend time with the "getting" old man...laughs

Kind regards,

Exactly Marie. When Greece leaves the Euro, and I hope it will be soon. We have to make it look like it's their idea, to get the best possible deal, and also, so the others don't get jealous and ask to follow.

When I left my last job assignment, I made it seem like it was such a terrible thing that my coworkers got to stay and work, and I had to leave, but of course the truth is, I'm really enjoying my time off. I've been working since I was 14 years old, and it's been great, but life is for the living!

If you follow the crowd and rely too heavily on the system here in America, the markets will steal your money, and you will never be able to retire. So, living and surviving in a predatory economic system is something that many Greeks have grown accustomed too.

After all, we've been around for 5,000 years. We must of learned something...laughs

Kind regards,

Sycorax in reply to Marie.Claude

"the Teutons were dressed as savages and danced around oaks believing it was their god"

Well, believing in Zeus etc. and dancing around marble statues was not much more advanced. And wearing Greek costumes in the cold North would not have been very healthy.

It seems you are running out of arguments ....

nikos hellas

it's time for us to end all these nonsense, we have bigger problems to deal with,than the new drachma,banksters ,EU,ECB,IMF.

first we want our independence.
send traitors to prison.
empty our country from immigrants.
deploy a new currency,and start re-builting our country,but in order to do that we must first have a country,no a siemens-corrupted by the vandals bankers protectorat!

happyfish18 in reply to nikos hellas

In fact, the investors are losing sight of the real Debt story. The Greek problem is but a small mole-hill of 160% GDP. The big debt mountain story will be the Japanese debt of 200% GDP which the government just announced that they cannot afford to repay ordinary investors back. Soon the financial Anglo vampires like Hedgefunds, Rating agencies, Banksters like JP Morgan Chase with free money to bet from the FED will soon get tired of toying around with the Greek mole and get ready for the real killing in the Yen.

nikos hellas in reply to sikko6

i'm talking about illegal immigrants who want to come in mainland Europe but they are stucked in Greece.(due to Lisbon II) ,imagine that soon millions of these pure people are coming near you,greece won't become the european dumpt-yard,of people and souls.

Pumpernickel_ in reply to nikos hellas

Nikos hellas

Who blew the whistle on bribes being given by Siemens to Greek politicians and elites?

That’s right, a German judge.

Where are the whistle blowing judges from France, UK, Switzerland, US, you name it? Because, make no mistake, in Greece there is no way you can do business without bribing somebody. The Greeks will block it until the dirty little envelope or suitcase more likely is delivered and counted. No other way to do business in Greece but ONLY THE GERMANS have been blowing the whistle on the practice involving one of their biggest companies no matter what harm that did to their own reputation. So that is the reason “Siemens” is being mentioned by all the Greeks who, of course, all know that other international companies are equally involved but not spilling the beans. Greeks should be full of admiration for German integrity.

crammerboy in reply to Pumpernickel_

"Greeks should be full of admiration for German integrity".

Are you sure "admiration" is the word you meant?

'Last week, a leading German daily discussed the issue of dispatching troops to Greece. Should the country go bankrupt, it would then, as a "'failing state,' (...) be less in a position" to shore up its borders against migrants, writes the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Just recently, the EU Commission announced that it finds itself forced to prolong the mission of its EU border troops at the Greek/Turkish borders. If Athens "should no longer be able to pay its officials, or can pay only in Drachmas," the situation risks "chaotic." The country could possibly "be rocked by rebellions." "Help for Greece would then no longer be on credit, but be transformed into a sort of humanitarian emergency aid," prophesied the journal in its front-page lead editorial. "Hopefully, an international protection force, such as is stationed in the teetering countries further to the north, will not become an option."

FAZ, 05/18/2012, 'Griechenlands Schicksalswahl'.

crammerboy in reply to mr_Arcadian

'Integrity?' Gimme a break.

'In a newspaper interview early this month, the director of the prominent Hamburg Institute of International Economics, Thomas Straubhaar, called for establishing a protectorate in Greece - "regardless of the outcome of the elections." The country is a "failed state," he says, which is unable to raise itself "to a new start" under "its own steam." Athens needs "help in establishing viable state structures." It therefore must be transformed into "a European protectorate." "The EU must do it," affirms Straubhaar. The EU "would have to help Greece modernize its institutions at every level, particularly with administrative staff, tax experts, and tax inspectors." However, refounding Greece would demand "intuition" to "overcome national pride, conceit, and the resistance of interest groups." This is referring to a sovereign democracy, a German ally in the EU and NATO'.

Thomas Straubhaar 'Wir brauchen ein Protektorat'.

It would need more than 'intuition' to do a job like this. It would call for a readiness to indulge in urban guerilla warfare with the Greeks. I'm not surprised that 'German thinkers', an oxymoron when talking of German political know-how, have not thought of this.

Marie.Claude in reply to Pumpernickel_

The Irish love Merkel, BTW, they find that the Greeks are hard-working people

"The EU leaders and bureaucrats spent most of the week dithering about Greece. They want to kick the Greeks out of the eurozone, but they're afraid that might cost several hundred billion euro -- provoking even worse nightmares in Spain, Portugal and Ireland. The hard-working Greeks have been so abused that no leader can convince them that obeying troika orders makes sense.

(Hard-working Greeks, as in 42.5 hours a week, on average, compared with 35.7 hours for the Germans, and we're somewhere in between -- these are OECD figures.)

Merkel has been trying to micro-manage the Greek electorate -- and she did it with all the competence she brought to dealing with the depression. Meanwhile, instead of tackling the banks, the source of the catastrophe, she decided the eurozone countries needed her pet ideas implanted in their laws. Now, even Germans are sceptical about her fiscal treaty."


Pumpernickel_ in reply to mr_Arcadian

Of course, the German side is guilty as well to offer the bribe in order to get the business, just like any other country doing business in Greece. I would be happy if Christoforakos was handed over to the Greeks. There must be a valid legal reason why Germany cannot do this, as the man is not a war criminal. There must be hundreds of Christoforakoses all over Greece not yet found out, as nobody is blowing the whistle on themselves. Besides, once in Greece he might be forced to name the names in high places, which, of course, would be good but it may be that those in high places are also putting pressure on Germany to NOT extradite him. Can of worms, if you ask me.

Sycorax in reply to Marie.Claude

"Hard-working Greeks, as in 42.5 hours a week..." A comparison between total working hours is pointless. Does not say anything about efficiency and what has been achieved during that time.

Just an example: My Spanish colleagues work from 09:00-18:00, with 1 hour lunch, at least 5 coffee breaks and x smoking breaks.

I work from 10:00-18:00, 30 min. lunch, no coffee/ smoking breaks.

Add to this a natural Spanish habit to complain about "extra" work.

Guess who is asked to take over additional work from Spain all the time???

Iyobosa Edokpolor

The euro crisis clearly shows that the EU leaders are bad teachers. If they couldn't make good of what unites them, how can they make good of what disunite the world.physician please heal thou self before it's too late.

Fat Usurer

What do you expect from the Germans? They never agree eurobonds, more payments and loosening austerity measures, unless Mr. Hollande throws one or several nukes on Berlin.

Mr. Hollande is miscalculating the Germans. He should wake up and find another way soon.


I see the German tourist-propagandist, who believes that those who want no part in the “EU” must be PAID to express their free opinion, is up early with nothing intelligent to say, unless a few obsequious remarks to a subsidised Portuguese made by a typical German tourist are considered germane to the topic of a dysfunctional currency and the disaster in has brought on Europe.
He seriously thinks that those who disagree with him are merely agents sent stifle “EU” attempts to become a “superpower”.

Is it too much for him to grasp the truth that people simply do not want to be in a union with a bloc that is run without democratic accountability and within which relations deteriorate by the day, in reality?
Is it too much for him to address this important concern in a civilised, polite manner?

happyfish18 in reply to Marie.Claude

The austerity revolt led by Hollande will cause global economic turmoils with no safe harbour in sight except possibly the US dollar safe haven. Now that most fat cats from the PIGS has fled to the safe haven, there is nobody left in the PIGS to collect tax payment for the enormous spending bill. The Rich Germans and other international rescuers are leery of having to foot more to the bottomless pit without attaching tougher conditions. Thus eventually, it must lead to a break-up of the EU.

Marie.Claude in reply to happyfish18

not what the Americans say:

"Why we are worried about Europe is that the dominoes are lined up right now in the same way they were lined up in 2008, except that today’s dominoes are 100 times bigger. Greece matters because when Greece defaults, Spain and Italy will then go next. Because of high rates of return, Spanish and Italian banks invested far more than they should have in Greek bonds. When Greece defaults, they will not be able to hide the fact that they are bankrupt. And I don’t mean one or two banks; I mean the entire Italian and Spanish banking systems.

They are broke. Electronic runs on the Spanish banking system have begun already. Interest rates are soaring on Spanish obligations, to the point that Spain cannot possibly borrow enough to even pay the interest on its outstanding debt. So Spain will have to default, and they will trigger defaults in Portugal and Italy.

So can it stop there? No, because guess who has about 150% of their capital tied up in Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese debt. The French. (yes, about 150%, I’ve even heard 180% for some) So if they go down, the French financial system goes down. They will no longer be able to pay what THEY owe.

Who backstops the French? The Germans, of course. Who backstops the Germans? The British.

Who backstops the British and the Germans? Why all of our New York banking houses, of course. And then all those CDS’s come due. As Michael Lewis said in “The Big Short”, it might look like a good idea to take out insurance on the Titanic – unless you expect to be paid off by someone who is ON the Titanic! And that’s the status of almost every CDS out there. If the system goes down, the ability to pay off *anything* goes down with it. In fact, that’s one reason they bet so much and took such a risk – the thinking is “hey, if the system goes down, we’re all sunk anyways, so who cares?”

Remember how it took $1 trillion in TARP money to keep things together in 2008? If this all blows apart, and it could do exactly that very quickly now, then we could be looking at a $100 Trillion dollar hole.

And nobody, not the Fed, not the EU, has any idea of how to deal with a problem that big. In all seriousness, we may be looking at the total collapse of the western financial model in the next few months, a collapse which would take down every last country in the world. The Great Depression of the 30′s will look like a kiddie picnic compared to what this one could turn out to be. And now you know what you should be scared of this year.

Pleasant dreams."

Birtnick in reply to Marie.Claude

That is a new site to me. I will ckeck it. "Ex-ECB chief: ‘If parliaments do not give us what we want, we will annul them’".

Thank you.

"On the Relevance of Democracy" addresses events in Greece:
I do not understand why the News items posted on the French pages of that site do not correspond to the English pages.

sikko6 in reply to Marie.Claude

"When Greece defaults, they will not be able to hide the fact that they are bankrupt."

They are all bankrupt long before. I said this many times already. They are just showing brave faces! Don't be fooled by smiles of finance ministers and banksters. Their balance sheets are all fakes.

I told you that for the same token, Germany is bankrupt already. Don't ask handouts to Germany! She's not capabale of doing although she may want to save the sinking euro titanic!

sikko6 in reply to Marie.Claude

"yes, it's the beginning of the sovietisation"


Who's going to be the Gorbachev? Hollande?
Greece will be the Afghanistan for Germany.
Germany will emerge leaner but healthier, a la Russia!

happyfish18 in reply to Marie.Claude

If you can trace all EU debt problem back to the source, it all begins with Greenspan's loose monetary cum regulatory system and subsequent Bernarke's quantative easing machinations at the FED to save his own skin. The economists call it the Greater Fool theory.

rgs3pYQkBd in reply to Birtnick

you arent realy think german foreign policy com is a serious Source of Information ?

The Editors of this Website are mostly from the far Leftwing Mileu such es dieLinke, and other former DDR Politicians.

Sycorax in reply to Birtnick

Citing references from every sh... corner of the internet does not improve your comments.
" " Please, what a leftist sh.. hole of a website. Full of self-loathing left propaganda.

dimit71 in reply to sikko6

Germany is a solid rich economy (and rightly so. They deserve the success) and Greece is a bankrupt economy that is sustained by the Union as are other Southern countries (and rightly so. They deserve the failure). Greece Portugal ans Ireland have bankrupt balance sheets available to all. Spain and Italy the same although it has not been officially accepted by their politicians. The markets know though and it is all over the press.

The Union is acting together and not deserving the countries in trouble. Until now they have no succeeded but they have not failed yet.
That is killing you? Nations trying together..
Well what can I say?? It is your right..
But take the nationalistic crap that you produce elsewhere.. because it is truly and utterly crap..


you are a poet :-) Why not write a satirical pamphlet on “the Europeans” as seen through your eyes in English? Would sell like hot cakes. Henry James’ attempt in this direction is now a bit old in the tooth.

tell us more about Greece and the Greeks, please. You seem to have a good inside grasp on the situation. I was especially intrigued by your recent comment:

“Most of Greek press is rotten and it does not represent the real stance of the people . There is a silent majority of Greeks who are pro-euro, pro-europe , pro-austerity,pro-growth via hard work, anti-corruption, anti-cronyism, anti-public sector excesses etc. The problem is that the good people are swamped and stampeded by the yelling vandalising hallucinating yobs and the demagogues who drive them.”

I am very happy to read this. Could you enlarge on this, please. Could zorbas also add his take on what you say, please. If this was the Greek reality then there would indeed be hope but HOW to bring about the wish of the majority under today’s circumstances, when the radicals seem to have the running.

I can well understand that the “silent majority”, as you describe them, then has nobody to vote for. Time to take to the streets then and voice their opinion, not blame Brussels and the Germans for everything but shout “We are the people” and find ways to represent themselves, if this truly is the case. To be honest: I have my doubts. It would be too good to be true and hope you or zorbas or somebody Greek could provide irrefutable evidence of this being the Greek majority's position.

Pumpernickel_ in reply to Pumpernickel_


What about the "closed shops" like train drivers, taxi drivers, lorry drivers and many others with their protected bloated wages and willingness to defend them through crippling strikes at the drop of a hat, in addition to the public "servants"? Would all of them together not constitute a bigger vociferous majority than the "silent majority" of Greeks you are describing? Please expand on this. Who exactly are those decent Greeks with their realist view of the situation?

Pumpernickel_ in reply to Pumpernickel_

Mutti Merkel is to the Greek closed shops what Margaret Thatcher was to the British Unions in the 70s. Both countries were/are on their knees and only very determined brutal action brought the UK back from the brink. It is probably too late already for Greece. Besides, Merkel has no means to intervene directly and any intervention from outside is considered meddling and puts her on the front page of Greek publications in Nazi uniform. So there is no hope for Greece, unless coming from within and no Margaret Thatcher around as far as I can see.

Marie.Claude in reply to Pumpernickel_

"n sum Germany is deriving all of the benefits it can from being in the EU. It gets to practice mercantilism completely within the EU and even to other countries such as the US. It gets cheap credit. This last is partially the result of Germany unfairly practicing mercantilism within the EU and elsewhere. The cheaper credit gives Germany's businesses a huge margin advantage from their cheaper financing. The distorted value of Germany's currency gives Germany an unfair export advantage. Germany pays little or no taxes to its federal organization, the EU. The PIIGS can't possibly catch up. There is no equalizing Federal government to oversee the EU as the US government does for the states. Germany benefits. The weaker EU countries continually get shafted."

Marie.Claude in reply to Pumpernickel_

"There is no need to ask Germany for another nickel, and no need to impoverish the periphery so the Germans can have a discount exchange rate. No need to listen to any more Calvinist, Hayekian moralizing from Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and his acolytes. The rest of Europe gets on with it, and for those who feel bereft, podcasts on the virtue of thrift and zero inflation will be available for download from the Bundesbank website."


Yes we can !

mvr36 in reply to Pumpernickel_

What a sick joke. The majority (60%) of Greeks voted for anti-austerity parties, and only because ND and PASOK rigged the system with the '50 seat bonus' did they squeak out a 150-150 parliament.
Lets ask the Greeks what they want, austerity or a return to the good old days of 2002-2008. Because that is what the irresponsible goons at ND and PASOK are saying, just bite the bullet on a year or two of austerity and things will go back to the way they were. But of course ND and PASOK are lying because things will never go back to the way it was 2002-2008. Yet believing exactly that it will made a significant minority vote ND/PASOK.
Of course its also true that a proportion of the 60% who voted against austerity also think that it will go back to the way it was if only others are willing to pay for it. I wonder how people will vote if they find out there aren't any others to pay for anything.
And all the while in this argument ignoring that the whole financial system of the western world and our excessive resource-use is totally unsustainable.
""The problem is that the good people are swamped and stampeded by the yelling vandalising hallucinating yobs and the demagogues who drive them.”""
The real problem is that good people are fooled into thinking the Euro benefits them (it doesn't) and will quietly accept the bankster criminals being enriched because supposedly doing so 'helps the economy'. Demagogues? Look no further than Brussels and the anti-democratic pro-E(urosoviet)U(nion) types who say 'all power to the Politburo aka commission'.
The EU and the Euro are our misfortune.

mariathena in reply to Pumpernickel_

A lot of the closed shop professions are under reform,their privileges were abolished , the strikes have already happened and they were violent , a lot has been done and changed but there is still much to do. Train drivers are public servants , lorry drivers are not. The strikes by the PPC and its sub companies are still a threat but it has been rebffed thanks to public outrage against the strikers , they have been milking the system for decades, and they were named and shamed .

Greeks are conservative people by tradition, home owners , home makers , family and heritage oriented, and there are many private business owners , small but sound, who have built their livelihood and future with many sacrifices and they dont want to see it going down the drain overnight. It is a collective fault that this same silent majority condoned the corrupt politicians for so long, but the reasons are a long story , not one we can expand on here. Mistakes are made but long term complacency can be dangerous and damning

mariathena in reply to Pumpernickel_

I personally like a new party called Re-Create Greece, check it out,

Will expand on the above when i have a moment. I am not painting a hopeful picture just for the sake of it, this is what I witness by talking and interacting with many people from different socio-economic and political backgrounds in Greece.

Sycorax in reply to Marie.Claude

Funny, the most important question raised on this article was never answered by the author:
".... And while its a straightforward idea many details would need to be addressed including balances owed Germany by the ECB and the Target 2 system of current account balances cleared through the ECB.
I think Germany has euro 600 billion outstanding in Target 2 balances, has contributed capital to the ECB and has guaranteed euro 60 billion of EFSF funding. And I'm sure there is more.
How would this be addressed and in what currency? "
So, who is going to backback the money to Germany?
Tells you everything. Potentially you should be mor selective on what "experts" you cite.....

Tony C

Currencies, like languages, evolve for social reasons. It is like saying 'we only trade with our people, not outsiders'. The euro, however, was an experiment in a single currency across different cultures. So long as those different countries/cultures see themselves as different and not united in the face of crisis, then it is only a matter of time before those differences pull apart the single currency. So long as those in the north of the eurozone remain unmoved by the plight of those in the south then the euro must fail. Yet the solution to the crisis is easy to see: creditors must forgive some debts and allow much more time for others to be paid. Negotiating such a deal across many stakeholders in different countries, however, takes too long - meanwhile a run on Greek banks will happen all too quickly.
Democracy is Greece's gift to Europe. But democracy is dead in the eurozone. Ordinary folk in Greece, Spain and even in Germany have voted against austerity but eurocrats and creditors are not listening. The euro will blow apart before europeans pull together.

emmafinney in reply to Tony C

In an interesting twist of events, the German delegation was seated next to the Greek delegation at the recent Nato summit in Chicago.

Whether the American hosts did this intentional or not is not known, however if looks could kill - Merkel had a grumpy look on her face was trying hard not to look at the Greeks, however turning the other side and looking away would have meant looking at Hollande, which apparently was too much for her as well, so she stared down at the table with a long face.

Sycorax in reply to Tony C

"even in Germany have voted against austerity ..."
What election was that? Surely not the NRW election.
"Democracy is Greece's gift to Europe."
Ever read a history book on the original concept of democracy?
But who cares for historical facts anyway???
Only a select group was allowed to vote. So no big difference
to the situation you are complaining about.

happyfish18 in reply to Sycorax

like other small members, the Greeks have virtually surrendered their sovereign economic rights to EU commissions led by the Duopoly. The EU commissioners do not care about democracy and their roles are to implement rules and regulation akin to coming from the Anti-Christ instructions.

mvr36 in reply to Tony C

Club Med democracy involves voting that we have to give them more money. Sorry but real democracy doesn't work that way. Screw Club Med and screw the EuroSoviet.

Alvaro Morales

Having a large debt burden while in the middle of a recession, means only two things: either close the loop and fall every year shorter of tax collections due to economic shrinkage, thus relying more and more on debt narkets to refinance, or a complete reassessment of the economy as a whole. Perhaps the terminology Austerity, should be replace by the term Economic Streamlining, thus justifying the cuts in goverment sponsored benefits or subsidies within the economy. The main issue remains the lack of liquidity and private sector investment, but it seems that this sort of market oriented policies are always unwelcome within the political arena in socialist countries. Like it or not, public sector investments will always suffer from a lack of transparency and efficiency oriented focus, which coupled with factional political interest result in underperforming assets and overly grown burocracies. I believe that monetary easing is not always an easy way to large debts. If done properly, accompanied by Economic Streamlining policies, could pave the way to economic growth and less dependance on public debt. In my opinion, Europe as a whole is in dire need of such actions, with some euro-economies more than others, of course. Perhaps a re-focusing in growth led by the private sector instead of Austerity will be most welcome in Europe and worldwide.


"The financial re-engineering of Europe is a prerequisite for the euro to survive."
Yep. And that is why, much as TE tries to blame Germany for reluctance to change the EU's financial system, the root of the problem is elsewhere. It lies in Britain's unwillingness to participate in said financial system, or in much of the EU for that matter. Why would Germany propose changes that Britain will torpedo in favor of the City anyway?

happyfish18 in reply to ToC-ToC

Frankly the Germans have borne more than their fair share to rescue their PIGS neighbours. Until Hollande's austerity revolt, everything seems to be under control with the IMF amassing one trillion war chest from international contributors to douse any small fire like Greek debt. The financial world is now on fire with no fireman in sight.


If governments and central bankers choose austerity, then default and deflation will be the rule. Otherwise, expect policymakers create large budget deficits financed by money printing. The event is binary.
The Greece (pick your Mediterranean country) investment thesis is simple: These problems are going to get papered over. Think precious metals.

sikko6 in reply to JJButler

"Otherwise, expect policymakers create large budget deficits financed by money printing."

This is not possible in Eurozone. Greeks cannot print money. ECB can. But printing will ruin the life of Northern Eurozone citizens. How can you do that under single currency union?


The lies of the socialist politicians of the Euro have come home to roost. And their stupid voters will suffer the Great De-Leveraging for many years. The solution is and always was simple. have politicians and bureaucrats subject to full true and plain disclosure laws similar to those they impose on officers of publicly listed corporations, with similar penalties (huge fines. long jail times and prohibition from ever holding an office which is publicly funded in any way). Then socialist politicians will have NOTHING to say or write.


When it comes to economics this guy rules, Richard wolff is a professor in the university of massachusetts, he was also professor of the former pm of Greece, George Papandreou, too bad he was a bad student.
When he came to greece for a lecture i was enchanted.
This is what he has to say about what happened and how to solve the crisis in greece
Look another interview, this guy is spot on!


...mutualization of EZ debt....eurobonds....

How do you, or France, or UK, or US.... even *dear* to suggest such a thing?

I'v been pro-Euro for long time, but following this crisis unfolding, I'm getting fed up. It's hopeless, with "proud nations" outright denial of their problems, and steadily accusing countries that pay their bills. I suggested here that countries with real negative interest rates of their bonds, not only EZ members like Germany, Finland and the Netherlands, but why not also Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland and Norway, could rise the capital needed, and invest in troubled EZ countries, provided they cut their all costs say 20% (internal devaluation), replacing Chinese imports to europe, and the answer is....."we will never become colonies of Germany and others...." . So, here you are.

Finland should be first one to pull out of euro (the least connected to other EZ countries, no bank exposure, etc.), our part is reduced to pay the bills of others. You talk million times how Germany pays, Germany this and Germany that... a Finnish tax payer is paying more than a German (the same for a Dutch).

Finland should leave EZ, but our young political leaders, in addition of lacking brains (media trained monkeys), lack balls, totally.

Let Greece and others free. Let them go.

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to MarkHutt

Good bye Finland. It was nice to meet you.

Here, have a can of sardines. Just for old times' sake.

Don't eat it all, you know, the way things are going your neck of the woods you may find yourselves surrounded by nationalistic supremacists. And we all know how that all ended back in the day... or perhaps we've forgotten all about it? hmmm...

Give it a thought or two. While you eat your sardine. It's quite good with bread. I've had that delicacy in Finland precisely, it is an excellent dessert the name of which I can't remember.

Bye, Finland, good bye
Bye-bye Finland....

Time to say good-byyyeeeeee
Savour a delicious sardine caaaan
And stare at the blue blue skyyyyy
thinking they could actually be in a paaaa-haaa-haaan

Finland the maaaaa-haaaaaan,
Said goodbye to their frie-he-heeeend
and no one cried, (oh no no no)
because deep down the eh-eend
we all knew the trend

Nations, Nordic is where The MAN
The uber-mensch that walk the Earth
An idea of which a lot seem to be fan
was so annoying thinking of this right of birth
to those awful AWFUL 'differents' from the South

Dirty, little creatures
Belong in a zoo.
Perhaps a camp, or two
Oh how they could be your teacher

While you eat your sardiiiineee iiiiiiin a caaaaAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!

(drums drums drums drums)

Thank you.

Unterhosen in reply to MarkHutt

Finland has no place in euro with countrys like Greece and Portugal paying all time for proud nations to be in same club as Finland. Why must good productiv manager Finland give money for this countrys? Better Finland be with Denmark, Sveden, Norway and Island in trade club. Same peopel, same attitude and mentality make good partners and no problems.

MarkHutt in reply to Unterhosen

Yes, my pro-euro head has turned.

Some 15 years ago, when common currency and the rules were established, Finland was naive (and I was naive) - you see, rules are respected in Finland. So, we made rules to EZ, and now looking back there's only one - let's repeat, only one country in EZ, that has never broken any rules, say Stability Pact. (I'm not counting new comers.)

This was not supposed to happen.

Finland is not alone an oddball in europe, though she is one in EZ. Sweden is fantastic, even better than Finland. Denmark and Norway are great, and Iceland is familiar.

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to MarkHutt

Thanks, I hope you understand it's directed at you and your 'pride'. and prejudice.

Wait, isn't that a book?

You have to calm down, open a can of sardines, sit by the moonlight, and think about the big picture. What they're selling you, and what you're buying. What is factual and what is not.

Perhaps then we could have a serious conversation, till then I'll stick to my mock musicals. :)

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to Super-pedrolx2

Funny how the Greek elections which were made into a drama only by the usual drama queens attracted the nationalistic bunch all over again.

You had disappeared for a while decided to come back with a vengeance?

It's like, no duuuh, nothing will happen as usual.

People just watch too much television and spend too much time online. I speak of myself as well,

But there's a brave new world out there, where none of this makes any sense. That's where we all should be.

Your pride 'Mark Hutt', is misdirected.

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to MarkHutt

Mark Hutt,

You should ask yourself two questions

a) why do you feel so offended that I made a joke about your totes dramatic scene you made on your first post. Does it hurt your pride so much? Are you not letting emotions get a hold of you

b) Why do you put Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy in a similar group? What makes you think any of these countries are 'similar' in culture? I wonder what is your degree of knowledge of these countries, and sometimes reading you or some others who apparently sound quite angry at some 'southerner archetype' what exactly do you know of these countries, and why on Earth is there an insistence to mix them in a single block?

c) what kind of news items do you read? There's been quite a lot of austerity in many countries thanks to this crisis, that I remind you, isn't circumscript to the south as many would want to make us believe, but it's just prejudice, why can't you see that. I remind you that the first nation to fall victim of the debt crisis was Iceland, which I presume falls into your category of uber-mensch-land. Others in your little brotherhood are also feeling the pain. it's systemic. and until people insist on focusing on this erroneous idea of a 'south of europe' (where did you get your education?) the circus will never leave town.

I am sorry for the Greeks but they have a chance to democratically choose what they want to do. That's what I've said in previous posts. It saddens me to see a young man like you so filled with anger towards a perceived 'group' of people.

I blame the media.

Pumpernickel_ in reply to MarkHutt


Have you ever been to Portugal? If not, please go not only to Lisbon but also Alentejo, ideally in spring and take a close look at the people.

Pedro is right when he tells us there is no such thing as Club Med. For a start Portugal is an Atlantic country but is more different from Greece or Italy than Denmark is from Norway or Sweden or Finland. The same can be said about other individual
GIPS members and Ireland, of course, is something else again.

So stereotyping is clearly inappropriate here. There was cheap money in societies which did not have cheap money before and were tempted and fell for the temptation is all there is to it.
With the exception of Greece they are all seriously trying to do something about it. Conditions will be stretched as needed and they will climb out of their hole, no matter what is written in the British Press. My guess is that the UK will be applying for Euro membership 5 - 10 years from now or become utterly irrelevant.

MarkHutt in reply to Pumpernickel_

Where have I put Portugal down? You're making up things. Pedro is babbling like a drunk: Trust me, there's no such a thing as Finnish delicacy with sardines. So, keep you sardines ;-) (Kalakukko is Savo -traditional local delicacy, not common food in Finland. No sardines, though.)

No stereotyping here: The countries that have acute debt and deficit crisis are Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy. That's not a prejudge either.

Enough with these babblings, let's talk about economy.

Forget about mutualization of debt. The whole idea is totally irresponsible. There's been enough of this "mutualization of debt" already, especially through ECB.

The focus should be now on how to create production, say to Spain with 25% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment. (Notice that I'm not talking about "growth", because bubbles - say housing- , financial- etc. make illusion of growth, which are constantly mixed up with real growth.) That's not only an economic problem, it's a huge human/social problem.

EU and EZ focus should shift from bail-out packages into investment packages. How to create industry, say to Spain or Portugal. But, of course, first there has to right conditions to establish business there, make the environment attractive. "Internal devaluation". Replace the Chinese production, transfer, say textile industry back to europe (where it used to be).

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to MarkHutt

Of course because southern Europeans can only be good át. Produced textiles.

Are you Disguise? (hmmm,m)

His idea for Portugal was to see everyone stitchng shoes for the rest of their lives.

I told him to go chew a shoe, and I say the same to you

What do you know of Portuguese exports? . I had to correct you once Because you were babbling on sense about it.

Several other countries have acute debt problems. It was even on free exchange or daily graph right here at the economist, in no specific order: the Netherlands, Iceland, Britain, the USA, Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, perhaps Denmark. Not even Germany the engine of the EU is looking oarticularly good at the moment.

They're just off the media and speculators radar (for now) because of the urban myth that they are über-mensch.

Perhaps as I said to you before, you should get better informed on things, your rant was a product of pride, not 'economics' or clear resonng.

I remember a cake that had sem sort of fish in it. My sister had a Finnish boyfriend for many many many many years. And yeah in the end it didn't work . Who cares wouldn't you say. Shy fella, never laughed much, nothing a few pats in the back and two or three ports from papa's collection wouldn't solve . He brought us many delicacies from finland oneif hem was this totes weird cake with fish inside, I ain't joking' doood

MarkHutt in reply to Super-pedrolx2

Oh yes, you're too proud to make shoes, rather get you money from countries that have really managed their economy well. Throw insults and mockery while at it. Proud people, indeed.

Your denial of your problem is a problem.

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to MarkHutt

a) What problems did I deny?

b) what insults did I throw?

c) I was 'funny' (as in haha funny, not the funny-funny) so what? are you made of glass that we can't touch you you might break?

d) get my money from where? We're being lent money. And for so many reasons I won't start a debate here.

e) why would Portugal make shoes if it is a leading nation in things such as renewables, biotechnology, etc. etc. etc.? This only proves that you don't get it.

Anyway this conversation has lost its point.

I've proven mine --> you're the one with 'pride' and misinformed.

I've given you some hints on what you should do.

Start with the sardine can.

Then follow the hints in no specific order, if you will. If you won't - not my problem, it is a free world afterall. Until it's not.

It does usually start with a bunch of nationalists claiming they're superior to the rest of the world, and a couple of maffiosi manipulating things and laughing in the background.

If you can't see that. what can I do.

Enjoy your sardines.

Josh_US Lux in reply to MarkHutt

Yeah, that's our Pedro. Always at odds with the truth, especially when the truth is that Portugal < Netherlands (or Finland, apparently) in economic rankings. -

By the way (and this also @ Pumpernickle): of course Portugal is not a Mediterranean country stricto sensu as it doesn't border the Mediterranean sea. But the term "Club Med" is not a geographical expression, but a colloquial equivalent to "Southern EU member states", and these countries have a lot in common, not least in their economic set-up (Greece might be a category of its own, though, being more comparable to Bulgaria or even Lebanon LOL).

Also, some of the people who in this blog complain when (their) Portugal is included into the "Club Med" category, usually call Finland a "Scandinavian" country, although it doesn't touch the Scandinavian mountain range. Shocking!

mvr36 in reply to Super-pedrolx2

What nonsense is that? And why do you hate democracy and why do you love the EuroSoviet Union so much? Get to work lazy Portuguese bums, there's debts to be paid off to our banks. And we need cheap labor, do you have any pretty girls that can be maids?

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to mvr36

Rather be an honest, hardworking maid than a PIRATE, a THIEF, a LIAR, a HYPOCRITE, an ASSASSIN, a MURDERER any day


And everything else you took from us, including compensation for all the Portuguese, mixed Portuguese, and others faithful to the Portuguese crown that you tortured, slaughtered and murdered .

Have you no shame?

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to Super-pedrolx2

This plundering Dutchman joke isn't funny any more. I need to change my repertoire... But I've got more.. Lots more
Including adventures in weirdly flat beaches where you have to walk for miles towards the sea just to get the sea waterto get to our knee level (how are we supposed to swim I'm those conditions holland-people??) and where flying rats (ie pigeons) I believe mutant ones command steal your chips just like that. Oh sorry I said steal again.

Super-pedrolx2 in reply to Super-pedrolx2

It's totes like I told my friends 'doods, I'm going for a swim'.
It took me 15 mins just to walk at least 1 mile on a straight line towards the sea. I looked back and could see my tiny tiny friends from a distance waving. Not at me, they were under attack by sky rats who wanted to steal our chips also known as french fries in Holland, since they don't really have a language of their own (they do pretend to have a language of their own, but I think it's all just gibberish, I'm pretty sure they're making it all up and when no one's looking they switch back to English).
I thought of making the other mile to get the water at least to waist level - so I could swim but then I thought to myself - I mean that's the whole purpose of a BEACH for crying out loud, but then I thought, oh what they heck.
Then I got back, and got attacked by sky rats again. They're very aggressive, sky rats in Holland. I think they feed them mutant stuff.
I'm obviously talking about Scheveningen.
By the way how's the election thing going in Holland. I haven't really had any news of what's to come.


Greeks See Euro Zone Exit Risks as 'Empty Threats'

It amazes me that despite being told they are bankrupt, there is still a sense of denial, they continue to believe there is plenty of money and Germany will continue to give them money indefinately, and they can continue to spend lavishly because "without us there is no Euro".

Honestly, is there anyway you can deal with a country with this mentatlity?

Nikkmist in reply to HyunSmith

Regarding the sense of denial Hyunsmith
What i find sad is that everyone tries to blame the Greeks,the truth is that the economic policy the E.U wants them to follow simply doesnt work, what they try to do is reduce the salaries, so that the economy will become competitive, and at the same time they try to collect payments for the loans by increasing VAT, property and income taxes.
Middle and lower classes however because of the salary reduction simply consumes less, businesses close due to decreased demand and people sell property so that they dont have to pay taxes for it, the effect is less money for the state coffers which leads to bankruptcy.
Filthy ritch on the other hand dont pay a cent,most of their property belongs to off-shore companies, an area called kranidi alone has 120! off shore properties registered, and most of their money are in tax havens such as switcherland or singapore.
There are more than 200 billion euros belonging to greek bussinesmen and polititians that are hidden in swiss acounts.
If that policy doesnt change Greece will be pushed by the E.U to default and to return to the drahma,there will be some chaos in the beggining but things will be better in the long run, the new devalued currency will make the country competitive, tourism and bussinesses will bloom again, rich greek bussinesmen will use their accounts to buy back their bussineses dirt cheap in drahmas and unemployement will decrease.
So its not Greece's fault its E.U's

ben yitzchak

Why are most of the comments on the article about how Greece got into trouble. As the saying goes; the ox is in the ditch. We should spend our energy getting the critter out!"
I'm disappointed that The Economist article seems to be living in fantasyland. Recommending the ECB flood Greece with liquidity (after they cut off their lending) and recommending faster fiscal integration is fantasy.
Instead, why doesn't the newspaper do something productive. Instead of hand-wringing and offering the "company line" on the impending disaster (subtext: you Greeks better vote for the 2 "mainstream" parties), why not offer constructive ways the EU can make a smooth transition when Greece exits? Offering bridge financing, help the Greek mint print the necessary New Drachma as quickly as possible. It will be chaotic for a few months, but with tourism representing 20% of GDP, after devaluation, the economy will explode.
It won't be the end of the world, and as we learned in Argentina in 2001, after a few months, the situation stabilized.
Here's an idea; let's all meet on the Greek Islands in the summer of 2013 and help the Greeks grow their economy!!

mr_Arcadian in reply to ben yitzchak

"(subtext: you Greeks better vote for the 2 "mainstream" parties)"
Yes!, vote for the same parties that brought the greeks in this situation at the first place, vote for those who in exchange for votes gave jobs in the public sector, vote for those who in exchange for kickback's signed huge armament contracts, vote for those who bought billions of euros in computers that are now obsolete and still in their package rotting in a store house.
It doesnt make sence!,the only reason the E.U wants this people is because they are corrupted and will do or sign anything in order for them not to go to prison.

Kurt Lessing in reply to ben yitzchak

You are perfectly right the ox is in the ditch. But the Greek ox is so deep in the ditch, it may be time to worry about the other oxens headed for the ditch: Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Italy.
Simply throwing money at Greece won't do, the Greek problems are not only about good governance but basic administration. The EU can't fight corruption, and it can't take over administration. There is currently an EU mission trying to help with administration,they haven't even started to gather the necessary information but the Greek press is crying bloody murder already and the German head of the mission had the car of his wife firebombed.
Greece does not have a land register and who knows, what else is missing and yet they complain about meddling foreigners, colonialism and whatnot. They seem to want to go it alone. So be it.

mr_Arcadian in reply to Kurt Lessing

However if the "greek ox" defaults and dies the contamination will kill the rest of the oxen, on the other hand if the drahma helps the ox out of the ditch the rest of the oxen will say "hey we dont need you" and they will leave the herd.
The greek press is controlled by media barons who serve local interests,E.U will do them a huge favour if they let Greece return to their currency.

emmafinney in reply to Sycorax

Pity the big boys in the eurozone didn't enforce the stability pact rules on deficits for 10 long years.

Oh wait a minute thats because Germany violated the stablity pact rules itself for most years and defanged it in order to avoid paying fines.

Looks like Germany's "do as I say, not as I do" policy is coming back to haunt it now.

Remember the stability pact? The mechanism for maintaining a stable currency with strict rules on deficits. Well if it had been enforced we wouldn't be having an euro crisis now.

Acknowledging this would mean Germans actually taking responsiblity for their actions - and we can't have that can we?

mariathena in reply to Kurt Lessing


MilovanDjilas in reply to emmafinney



Right on the nose, Emma.

That's because the Stability Pact was made to be applied to Italy, not to France and Germany. Of course, when Berlusconi was flouting this rules (3.2% deficits in 2003, 2004 and 2005) the German Christian Democrats were covering for him politically. Of course, the Vatican lobby which sponsored Silvio in Italy was also always powerful among the German Christian Democrats.
Did you know that Konrad Adenauer was a member of Opus Dei? He has been named "Servant of God" as is apparently up for beatification at the Vatican...

mariathena in reply to emmafinney

The only significant anti-austerity voice is Syriza , dont know where Golden Down stands on this, probably anti-austerity too . As for the people voting for the Communist party , I guess they are for austerity anyway..
Nobody in his/her right mind rejects the idea of structural reforms entailing belt tightening, what is needed is a better time framework to be able to adjust and deliver. It all people from the public sector who reject austerity as their jobs will be cut out and rightly so.It is also the young from 18-30 , many of which are jobless and reluctant to deign any "unworthy" jobs , they think rejecting the bailout will mean money growing on trees and plenty of good jobs with minimum work. The young who work or want to work dont bite the bait of false promises , but regrettably for Greece , these are the ones who emigrate for now.

Marie.Claude in reply to Kurt Lessing

it the euro the problem

you can't make the whole EZ German

from the day the euro was launched that ment that life price would become more expensive in countries that had a euro = 1,50 franc, 1,9 lira... I don't know how much drachmes for a euro !

the whole thing will crash, like the latin monetary and or the skandinavian monetary unions from the end of 19th century

crammerboy in reply to emmafinney


Looks as though my comment to you earlier was removed. Here it is again.

"Josh"? You mean Josh-1, Josh-2, Josh-3, Josh-US, Josh-Lux, projekt-parsifal or sherryblOck? And those are just the ones I remember.

BTW Did you know that 'Gazprom Gerhard' (I'm-laughing-all-the-way to-the-bank) Schröder called Putin a 'flawless, crystal clear democrat'? I'm not sure if he consulted the inhabitants of Grozny before giving his expert opinion. It must have been a German joke.
Never mind.

Sad for Europe, isn't it, that the Continent is now led by an ex-Stasi collaborator that they call 'Mutti'? It's easily forgotten that one third of German territory was the most recalcitrant and dictatorial of all the USSR satellites right till 1989. Judging by the unanimous, dog-like adulation of Merkel's policies and the utter inability of 'certain people' on this thread, and their adopted Rotweilers, to criticise their own country, Germany, it looks as though they are ready for the next dose.

Let them go east where they belong.

emmafinney in reply to crammerboy

Never fails - any remarks that expose Josh's b.s will be deleted in a nano second.

It appears Birtnick and my remarks as well have vanished.

You can bet busybody Josh will see to it that these remarks disappear too.

TomAlex in reply to emmafinney

What is 'austerity'? The reason anyone votes for a party is simply that they believe the alternatives are worse. And, on this everybody has a point. Let me illustrate with concrete examples:
1)The troika -imposed measures do not work as far as labor issues are concerned. First, because the competitiveness problem was never a wage issue. It was always an issue of red tape, incompetent management(also in the private sector-revenge of the D students or lions for lambs) and a constantly changing legal and tax environment, making it impossible to access the risks and benefits. Especially when it comes to the state intervening to lower wages in the private sector and void existing PRIVATE contracts, this means the state losing direct and indirect taxes, pension funds collapsing and anyone who can leaving the country. And, would you invest in a country where the government intervenes in PRIVATE contracts?(imagine an american hoops player with a 3 year contract for a greek club and the government passinga law that his contract is voided after 6 months and he needs to renegotiate and if he does not agree, he gets minimum wage. Get the picture?)
So continuing with this path means not defaulting now with a small primary deficit, but in a few months with a much larger one. If that's my choice, I'd rather default now.
2)A vote for 'pro-austerity' parties means you trust the people who got you here to get you out (and mind you who have made NO sacrifices). It follows the logic expressed by the vice-president of the previous government that 'because I did not do my job and voted for deficit upon deficit, appointed incompetent party members, did nothing on public administration and tax collection and threw and keep throwing money out the window', it's EVERYBODY's fault and YOU (the rest) must pay. An example of the idea of respect for taxpayer and lender's money by these people(as well as the left, who also voted this) was the previous government voting for donnating public property plus 15M euros to build a mosque and undertaking the obligation to pay for eternity a mufti(and of course the same for anyother religion or sect that will want the same).
3)The SYRIZA alternative is also bad. Instead of the normal road whereas one gets a small job to do and if one shows competence then one gets a bigger one, this is a party of crazy ideas that has shown no credentials of competence and even their sense of direction is chaotic. Yet, the need exists to cancell the disastrous measures taken by the last government at the troika demands, at the same time refraining from polemics and explaining why it must be done. But this is not enough. In chess for instance sacrificing the queen may be the best move if you have a forced mate, but if you do not have the right plan and sequence you lose, so it's best not to play the queen sacrifice. Same here. It is not enough to do a right move, one also needs to follow the right, consistent plan with competence. One must make the cuts(e.g. propose to merge foreign PIIGS embassies and stop wasting money).

ben yitzchak in reply to Kurt Lessing

my point exactly! Why does this highly respected newspaper insist on selling us fantasy to fix the problem. Flooding Greek banks with newly minted Euro won't help?...nor will a Euro-wide deposit insurance, putting German taxpayers on the hook for Greek bank's fantasy!
Why not recommend letting Greece and Portugal go, making sure there's no contageon in Spain or Italy? (for example, the ECB could guarantee those deposits)
I thought the article was weak in its recommendations.


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