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Amanda Knox and Family Arrive in Seattle; Did Murray`s Love Life Cost MJ His Life?

Aired October 4, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, we are coming to you from New York City. And there`s breaking news. Amanda Knox has just arrived back in Seattle after spending more than four years behind bars in an Italian prison.

Amanda and her family touched down just moments ago. Amanda spoke out for the first time since being released. Now, there`s a press conference that we`re going to show you in just a moment, as soon as we can prepare the tape frankly. This is the vague res of live television.

But joining me in the studio too, you can tape that out, is Doctor Gail Saltz. Gail Saltz is a Psychiatrist and she specializes in human sexuality and relationships. Gail and I know each other for a long, long time. Thank you for joining me Gail.

You know before we go to the tape where Amanda talks for the first time on American soil, have you had any thoughts about this case? I looked at it and am sort of outraged by it. I don`t know of any young girl that is engage with the boyfriend who suddenly becomes violence you know a violent murderous because somebody doesn`t participate in some weird sexual act. I never heard of such a thing. Have you?

DOCTOR GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: You know I haven`t. But given what I do, I`m a big believer and you can`t judge a book by its cover. So, I think you can`t look at someone and saying having a history that doesn`t include violence, certainly you would say this is the first act that would be bizarre.

PINSKY: Somebody that includes cutting in their sexual acting out or includes violence in sexual behaviour, RIGHT?

SALTZ: That is true. But when you start mixing potential alcohol and drugs, as you know Drew, you never know.

PINSKY: Well, I am going to right now play the tape of Amanda Knox here on Seattle on American soil. We can talk how she looks after this. Watch the tape. Here she is in America moments ago.


AMANDA KNOX, RELEASED FROM ITALIAN PRISON: They`re reminding me to speak in English because I`m having problems with that. I`m really overwhelmed right now. I was looking down from the airplane, and it seemed like everything wasn`t real. What`s important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who`s believed in me, who`s defended me, who`s supported my family. I just want my family is the most important thing to me now. I just want to go and be with them. So thank you for being there for me.


PINSKY: So pretty moving, Gail. Any different thought now that you have seen from the young lady? I have seen lots of stories about who she is and how her life was conducted.

SALTZ: I am struck by in her statements now was her comment, this doesn`t feel real.

PINSKY: Disassociated.

SALTZ: And you know that`s not surprising for someone that`s been through so much trauma. And I think that`s really what we`re all wondering about is what`s going to go on from here. How will she manage the trauma, and hopefully you know be able to repair herself.

PINSKY: Let`s define this for people at home. What you and I find matter of fact the average viewer may not understand. If somebody feels like they`re in dream state or they watching from a tunnel or hovering above, that`s called disassociation. That`s a sign they`re barely handling what`s going on emotionally.

SALTZ: It can be a coping mechanism. You see it with children that were abused. Rather than be present in the moment, they dissociate so they feel they`re not there. The problem becomes that they go on to potential be people who do that repeatedly, dissociate. And it`s a terrible feeling and -

PINSKY: It is not a way of dealing with emotions.

SALTZ: It is damaging and they can`t turn it off when they want to. So, the fact she did it in the moment doesn`t mean anything.

PINSKY: OK. Now I`m going to show you the parents, Gail. Get a sense of who raised this young lady. Here are the parents, I believe at the same press conference.


CURT KNOX, AMANDA KNOX`S FATHER: This has been a very long four years, but we couldn`t have made it through it without all you people here that have supported us, and especially Amanda.

EDDA MELLAS, AMANDA KNOX`S MOTHER: Yes. All I can say again is thank you. It is because of the letters and the calls and the amazing support that we`ve received from people all over the world.


PINSKY: Anne Bremner, you are with us, you`re the attorney for friends of Amanda. Now, this is your first reaction to this footage. Tell us how you feel? Tell us what you think is going on with Amanda and her parents.

ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY, FRIENDS OF AMANDA KNOX: Well, I just think it is so emotional for them. You know it has been such a horrible ordeal, and I think that there`s so much they want to say, that they said the same things, which is thank you everybody, thank you all you know and there`s tears and everything else. And this is just the media out there clapping for them I mean which is amazing to have all of these cheers.

All people wanted to hear from really was Amanda and her parents, and it was - to watch her and to see that, just the tears and being so overwrought, and being hugged by her sisters and her mom, you just have to think give her some privacy. She just needs to kind of be with her family and have some privacy. And my heart just went out to her. I`m so glad she`s home and so glad she`s safe. Everyone in Seattle is embracing her, but really touching. I think she nailed it in terms of what we wanted to hear from her, and that`s just gratitude and blessings that she`s here on soil, touching down in Seattle.

PINSKY: Thanks, Anne. Gail, so we are looking at her as someone traumatized by the experience, whether you know her best friend was murdered or good friend is murdered, I mean she ends up in prison, it is just traumatic. How do you think she will deal with that?

My suspicion, before I let you answer, is that we may hear a lot of that. She may need to go out and tell her story. Wouldn`t that be one way to do it?

SALTZ: Well, that certainly can be a positive way of dealing with it actually. I mean obviously there`s financial gain potentially, and the family is broke essentially from having to mount a defense. But you know, telling your story or writing your story is really cathartic and therapeutic for some people, but not for everyone.

So, the question is will it be for her? She might need to retreat and have privacy and do that with a therapist or frankly not do it at all, so she doesn`t get pigeon holed into her identity and have that be her identity. I am struck by the parents who are divorced and have come together for her in a really fantastic way. As you know, trauma is minimized in terms of on-going effect, like PTSD if you have a support system, a really wonderful support system.

PINSKY: So let`s hear from Amanda in her own words, talking about the support system and how important that is to her.


AMANDA KNOX: They are reminding me to speak in English, because I`m having problems with that. I`m really overwhelmed right now. I was looking down from the airplane, and it seemed like everything wasn`t real. What`s important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who`s believed in me, who`s defended me, who`s supported my family. I just want my family is the most important thing to me now. And I just want to go and be with them. So thank you for being there for me.


PINSKY: It is such a happy moment, but there are some clouds over the horizon. Will there be another appeal? The prosecutor, I`m not sure I can pronounce his name, Giuliani Mignini expressed disbelief with the verdict and said he will appeal to Italy`s highest criminal court and really, are we going to have to go through this again?

BREMNER: Really.

PINSKY: Is that likely?

BREMNER: Yes, Mignini. We always say everyday is Halloween with Mignini with his tentacles and all these you know witches and she devils he can con jury up. Yes, he can appeal. There`s no double jeopardy there. But Doctor Drew, it basically means there has to be extradition from the U.S. and there has to be some evidence to base extradition on, and that`s not going to happen. He can appeal, but she is not coming back. That`s my prediction.

PINSKY: Interesting. Up next, you will hear from, you will hear more from Amanda at the joyful homecoming and analysis from Gail, myself and my guest of her epic ordeal.


PINSKY: We are back again. It is live and of course breaking news of Amanda Knox arriving in Seattle. We`re going to once again play you some comments from her father and then follow that with again Amanda Knox`s own words. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amanda`s parents, Curt Knox and Edda Mellas.

CURT KNOX: OK, first of all, we`d like thank you everybody. As Ted said, this has been a very long four years. But we couldn`t have made it through it without all you people that have supported us, and especially Amanda.

EDDA MELLAS: All I can say is again thank you. It is because of the letters and the calls and just amazing support that we received from people all over the world, especially here in Seattle that we have been able to endure and make sure Amanda had the support she need. There`s no way we could thank everybody individually, so here is our way to just say thank you.

CURT KNOX: I`d like to add in, one more thing. We`d also like to send our appreciation to our Italian lawyers, Carlo Della Vedova, Rocco Girlanda. They did a fantastic job on that side of the pond. And Ted was phenomenal on this side of the pond. And obviously, we couldn`t have done it without you. So, appreciate that. Ed and I will take any questions if anybody has any. There`s a couple of hands over there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome home, Amanda! Woo!

AMANDA KNOX: They`re reminding me to speak English because I`m having problems with that. I`m really overwhelmed right now. I was looking down from the airplane, and it seemed like everything wasn`t real. What`s important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who`s believed in me, who`s defended me, who`s supported my family I just want -- my family is the most important thing to me now, and I just want to go be with them. So thank you.


PINSKY: Anne Bremner with friends of Amanda Knox. Where does she go, next? What`s up next for her?

BREMNER: I do think she`s just going to want to spend time with her family. I hope that press doesn`t end up at her house from the press conference. I mean there`s so much press, I know everyone is supportive of Amanda Knox, but she does wants her privacy, her family wants private time, and it is a time to transition you know from this horrific ordeal that she has been through under international scrutiny of the press.

First it was very negative then of course has become very positive as we saw here, what a homecoming to Seattle with worldwide press applauding her. But I think she`s very balanced. She`s very grounded. And she`s very mature as you could see there. And I think she is going to be very, measured about what she does, if she does a book or something like that, I think it will be meaningful to her, it will be something that`s very thoughtful about justice, about perseverance and things like that.

She`s actually a person of faith, and somebody that I think will think this through very carefully, and I`m looking forward to her future. I don`t know what`s going to be next, will she go back to school, I mean does she travel awhile? She is not going back to Italy I hope. That`s one advice I give her, I don`t think it is a safe place for her, but I do think she`s going to do the right thing. She is not going to be like other cases where people are self aggrandizing and star struck and have movie and book deals and become kind of these you know celebrities out of something that`s been very unfortunate like this.

PINSKY: Drew Griffin, you`re on the ground there in Seattle. Can you tell us what the pulse is locally and by the way, Anne brings up the issue of the press hounding her. Are they trailing behind her, camped at her house?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATION UNIT: You know, unfortunately, Doctor Drew, I can tell you just from being in the huge gaggle of press that was surrounded by me, the still photographers were trading various addresses of homes she could be living in, staying in tonight. Everybody from either Curt or Edda`s various houses, or a grandparent, or uncle, aunt, trying to locate her. So, I think she there will be some hounding by the media here that they`re going to have to deal with. The family knows that`s going to happen. It will be interesting to see how they handle that, and particularly how Amanda will handle that aspect of her now new normal life.

PINSKY: Amanda wrote a letter released hours before she left Italy. It says, quote, "those who wrote, those who defended me, those who were close, those who prayed for me, I love you."

CNN investigative reporter and correspondent, Drew, you`re still there with us. What is the pulse in Seattle generally? Are they appreciative, is it really a large scale turnout for her, or is this a relatively isolated narrow focus of the press?

GRIFFIN: You know it`s been hard for me to gauge. Certainly she has had huge support here in Seattle. She had various fund-raisers and groups like Anne`s that have been behind her, but really the core of her support is this incredible family that had a somewhat dysfunctional tone to it when the whole ordeal began. Her parents are divorced from a long time ago. They all con geed to get through this.

You know her stepfather-in-law, excuse me, stepfather, literally moved to Italy and were there for her and lived there, trying to be there for her. So I think she`s going to have to draw incredibly upon that support of her family to get through this, and it looks like they are true and sticking by her and will help her get through this.

PINSKY: Thank you, Drew. Gail, I got less than one minute with you here. You heard that story about the family. Of course, you don`t know them personally. From prognostic standpoint, speaks well for Amanda. Does it add?

SALTZ: It definitely does. I mean you know we think of divorces being damaging long term for children. But it is the parents that you know they`re divorced stay together for the betterment of the child and show that kind of love and consistency that definitely that bodes very, very well.

PINSKY: People I don`t think this country think about of the fact that those primary relationships are how people avoid psychopathology after traumatic events like this.

SALTZ: Absolutely. And it is a model going forward which does, when you look at that model make you less inclined to believe that she could have done such a thing.

PINSKY: The fact she comes from such a stable family system.

SALTZ: A stable family.

PINSKY: Let`s talk by then again I think you have one more minute, as a live television, with this breaking news, I`m reminding people, but that how naive she must have been going out there. She may have been running away from rupture in the family, and looking for -

SALTZ: You know what, we don`t talk enough about the fact to some degree all young adults are naive when they go to other countries and don`t really understand the laws, the rules, the way they can get in trouble and that they`re going to be governed by those rules when there.

PINSKY: Not protected by the American system. They sort of don`t appreciate this protection.

SALTZ: And as we know, the frontal lobe is not fully developed until mid-20s.

PINSKY: Let`s reframe that for people because it is important. This part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex and is something that is closed for remodeling during much of adolescents. That`s why adolescents are prone to going after arousing kinds of experiences and if overseas seeking that of stuff.

SALTZ: Judgment and their idea of consequences, ability to see what will happen is not so great. So they get into situations. So even though she may never have done anything like this, the ability to put yourself in a situation around these kinds of things, and not know how to get out at the right time can be something about being alarming adolescent.

PINSKY: Good point. Gail, you`re staying with me, Drew, thank you for joining us. And of course, Anne, appreciate what you have to say as well.

Up next, a cry of freedom, more of Amanda`s homecoming words. And later, Michael Jackson death trial prosecutors line up a parade of Doctor Murray`s ex-girlfriends. We`re going to get into that. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Tonight, triumphant and tearful homecoming captivates the nation. Amanda Knox is home in Seattle who spoke just a moment ago. Here she is again.


AMANDA KNOX: They`re reminding me to speak in English, because I`m having problems with that. I`m really overwhelmed right now. I was looking down from the airplane, and it seemed like everything wasn`t real. What`s important for me to say is thank you to everyone who`s believed in me, who`s defended me, who`s supported my family. I just want my family is the most important thing to me now, and I just want to go be with them. So thank you for being there for me.


PINSKY: Four years in an Italian prison facing potentially a quarter century more. Now free. Back with me is Gail Saltz and Anne Bremner.

Gail, just a quick questioner that I may lose you in just a minute here, the boyfriend thing. They painted her as some sort of sex crazed. Why? Because she was having a physical relationship with her boyfriend and that she was fighting with her roommate and that was motivation for murder, don`t you know. Because if that were motivation for murder, seems to me a bunch of colleges would be in serious trouble. There would be murders all over the country.

SALTZ: Oh, my. That is growing up, if you`re healthy actually to some degree, working out differences, having boyfriends is practice for later on.

PINSKY: Let me get this right. So you mean when somebody has a little tension about how they conduct themselves in relationships or otherwise, someone doesn`t pick up a knife and murder that person? As the Italian prosecutor alleges.

SALTZ: I was going to say it. It sounds like a soap opera. Non- reality but it made a good story and that`s what people bought it. Because people want a good story, they don`t like raid and want black and white, evil, and good.

PINSKY: Well, the evil and god sold in Italy, that`s for sure. Now Anne, real quick, Amanda said none of this feels real, but she was still able to make a joke about speaking in English. Do you think she`s in good spirits now?

BREMNER: That she what?

PINSKY: Does she seem to be in good spirits now?

BREMNER: Yes, I`m sorry, she does. I thought that was great. In this whole, it has been an Italian opera really. I mean she has come through it in great spirits. She looks great, I mean she sounds great. It was one big thank you to the world and everyone that defended her and supported her, and she`s just the happiest I have seen her in any of this. And it is just great to see. What a wonderful day.

PINSKY: And Gail, give your final thought here. It sort of a cautionary tale for parents letting kids travel overseas and what not. Is there some new conversation we need to have with our kids now?

SALTZ: Well, I think there are inherent risks in anything worth doing. So, I wouldn`t want to tell people not to do those things, but I would tell people is, have many conversations about the realities because there are dangerous realities.

PINSKY: And I would add in the use of substances, particularly overseas, people whenever you have an unwanted outcome, you find substances are involved in this country, the consequence can be more worse as this. Thank you, Gail. Thank you, Anne.

Coming up, week two. It`s week two, and it is under way in the Michael Jackson death trial. Is Doctor Murray`s past beginning to catch up with him?

When we come back, we`re going to take a look at the women in Doctor Murray`s life. Was he talking to one of these ladies while the king of pop was fighting for his life? This is quite a story. You`ll want to hear it. Please stay with us.



DOCTOR CONRAD MURRAY, SUSPECT IN MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: Please, don`t worry. As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth and I have faith the truth will prevail. God bless you and thank you.



PINSKY: When it came to Michael Jackson`s medical care, Dr. Conrad Murray was hired to be his constant companion, his right-hand man, but prosecutors portrayed Murray as a lady`s man, whose focus on his love life may have cost the King of Pop his life. Watch this and we`ll talk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fascinating testimony in the Michael Jackson manslaughter trial. We see the parade of Conrad Murray`s girlfriends on the witness stand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A portrait is emerging of a man who has a type, cocktail waitress. There is one who`s a stripper. There`s one who`s an exotic dancer, and of course, the actress.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he give you his telephone number?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Conrad Murray told you that he was Michael Jackson`s physician, were you interested in that information?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray`s personal life which apparently on the day that Michael Jackson died intersected with his professional life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He, apparently, was in that bedroom, using his two cell phones and sending messages, e-mails, and on the telephone, and not paying attention to his patient.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) was after she was on the phone with Dr. Conrad Murray minutes before Michael Jackson died. She heard coughing. She heard some mumbling.


PINSKY: Joining me with insight in today`s testimony is Lauren Lake. She is a criminal defense attorney. Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on truTV. Ryan, seemed like a pretty big day in the courtroom. Can you tell us the latest?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION" TRUTV: Oh! What a day. This was one of the most provocative days of testimony that we`ve seen, so far, because it was these three witnesses, women that have, at one time or another, dated Conrad Murray that took center stage. And the prosecution brought them on to talk about the time line, each of them in one way or another, had had some sort of phone contact or text contact with Dr. Murray on the day Michael Jackson died.

But the subtext of all of this was the character of Dr. Murray coming into issue, because you saw Dr. Murray living with one woman, having a conversation with her, also talking to two other women at the same time, all the while, Drew, while he was supposed to be, according to the prosecution, watching Michael Jackson as he was giving him this drug, propofol.

Tim Murray (ph), the pharmaco -- the pharmacist also testified about shipping large quantities of propofol to Nicole Alvarez, the woman you see on the right of your screen there, when Dr. Murray told him it was supposed to go to a clinic that he was building. So, a lot of difficult testimony for the defense on this day. Powerful day for the prosecution.

PINSKY: So, Ryan, this is, again, an attempt to tear down his character. It seems like the focus, thus far, has been a lot of smoke and mirrors but has been directed at consciousness of guilt and tearing down his character. Is that correct? Is that what they`re going for?

SMITH: That is part of it. I mean, what they`re really trying to do is outline the timeline. Say for example, Sade Anding took the stand, and she talked about having a phone conversation with Conrad Murray, then hearing coughing, hearing mumbling of voices. He dropped off the phone.

Presumably, that was when Michael Jackson passed away. So, they`re trying to get the jury to see that timeline of what happened on the day that Michael Jackson died, but as a result of that, they`re able to bring in all of this other character stuff, and it does have the effect of making Dr. Murray look very, very bad.

PINSKY: OK. So, the primary intent is to show that he wasn`t attending to his patient when he should have been there. Today, we heard from one of Conrad Murray`s former girlfriends. She was on the phone, as Ryan was telling us, when he reportedly discovered Jackson wasn`t breathing. Watch this.


SADE ANDING, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER GIRLFRIEND: I was just talking, and the next thing you know, it was like I said hello? Hello? And I didn`t hear anything. And that`s when I pressed the phone against my ear, and I heard mumbling of voices. It sounded like the phone was maybe in his pocket or something, and I heard coughing. And nobody answered.

VOICE OF DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: So, if I`m understanding you correctly, about five or six minutes into the telephone call, you realize that he had not been saying anything back to you. Do I have that right?



PINSKY: So, Lauren, the doctor is on a personal phone call with a woman, I guess, a second woman he`s dating. He`s living with one, and this is one of his people.


PINSKY: Whatever. And, he`s not attending to his patient. Does this just nail negligence?

LAKE: You know what, I don`t believe so. As a criminal defense attorney, I see it a different way. People keep saying he`s not paying attention, he`s on the phone with women. What I believe the defense will try to establish is that he gave Michael Jackson the 25 milligrams of the propofol. He waited the seven to ten minutes.

He thought the patient was resting peacefully. He stepped away, but he was still in an area, a closet adjacent to the area where Michael Jackson was when he noticed something was wrong. He didn`t say to the girl hold on, let me talk to you in a second. He jumped to it.

PINSKY: So, you raise an interesting point, because the 25 milligrams of propofol, if that`s really the amount he received --

LAKE: Yes.

PINSKY: Should actually last about four minutes.


PINSKY: And from your standpoint, you could show that he was there in attendance for those four minutes that the propofol will be active.

LAKE: What I believe is that`s going to be the defense`s position, that he waited and thought his patient was resting. And since he`s resting and was dying to get sleep, I`m going to step in the other room and talk quietly, return a couple of calls and watch him from there. That`s what the defense will probably try to establish. But everyone thinks this is some huge smoking gun. I just don`t think it`s the case.

PINSKY: Good point. Interesting. Today, we also heard from another one of Murray`s girlfriends who said she spoke to Conrad Murray while he was en route to the hospital with Michael Jackson. Watch.


BRAZIL: Did you speak with him, Conrad Murray, on June 25th of 2009?


BRAZIL: Do you recall the conversation?


BRAZIL: Was it a brief conversation?


BRAZIL: What did he tell you?

ALVAREZ: I remember him telling me that he was on the way to the hospital in the ambulance with Mr. Jackson and for me not to be alarmed because he didn`t want me to be worried because he knew that I would learn this through the news.

BRAZIL: And you would be upset?



PINSKY: Now, Ryan, Dr. Murray would not allow the paramedics to pronounce Michael Jackson dead, but don`t worry, he`s on the phone. How do you make sense of all of that?

SMITH: It just is shocking. And I think you got to look at this as what a juror might think, because a juror might think that Murray doesn`t want paramedics to stop. He jumps in that ambulance. And what`s he doing? He`s calling his girlfriend telling her not to worry. Isn`t there something maybe he could be doing for the patient?

And that`s what the prosecution is trying to point out. Also, Drew, I want to point out something else. The idea is that there are a number of things that happened here that were failures in providing that standard of care. I know Lauren just mentioned he might have stepped away for a second, but remember, these weren`t the only calls he made.

There were calls to patients, calls to his office, and all of this was going on, by the way, and the prosecution is going to say he abandoned Michael Jackson when he should have been looking and waiting with him every minute that propofol was being administered, and that`s where they`re trying to go with this.

PINSKY: Nicole Alvarez is Dr. Murray`s former live-in girlfriend. She`s also the mother of his seventh child, and according to the state, it was her apartment where Dr. Murray asked the pharmacist to ship propofol, a large amount. Watch.


BRAZIL: During this timeframe that I`m referring to April, May, and June of 2009, did you retrieve packages addressed to Conrad Murray that were left in the common area of your apartment complex?

ALVAREZ: I do recall once or twice.

BRAZIL: And you didn`t ask him what was in these packages, did you?



PINSKY: Lauren, I know you`re billing the defense for Dr. Murray, and it`s interesting. I appreciate you taking that aggressive position, but even with that and what you said thus far, four gallons of propofol to my girlfriend`s apartment. How do you defend that one?

LAKE: You know, we can concede that it sounds horrible. It sounds ugly. And we can also concede that he lied and said he had an office when he really didn`t. However, when we`re talking about the crux of this case --

PINSKY: The murder.

LAKE: Causation.

PINSKY: Murder.

LAKE: Causation. That is the crux, and that has nothing to do with it. Plus, they were going on the tour. Fifty shows. He may have been stocking up because, you know what, they weren`t paying him $150,000 a month to administer baby aspirin. He had to have the drug with him.

PINSKY: Do you have an opinion about -- I need to talk to you more.


LAKE: I have lots of opinions, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I can see that, and I`m fascinated by them all. Do you think it`s OK for a doctor to go, give a patient propofol outside a hospital --

LAKE: I do not feel that it`s OK, but what I do feel is that in this system of justice in our country, we have to deal with not just when someone is wrong and when someone`s negligent, here, he has to be criminally negligent and that negligence be the cause of the death. We have not established that yet.

PINSKY: Got you. Ryan, last word.

SMITH: Yes. The thing the prosecution is arguing here is that there was negligence, and it is criminally negligent, because what happened was he dipped below the standard of care, and in doing that, they`re trying to say he created a substantial risk of death for Michael Jackson. So, for example, by abandoning Michael Jackson, he created a substantial risk to him.

So, even if he took that propofol himself, because that`s what the prosecution wants to point out in this case, that abandonment is the criminal thing that led to the risk that caused his death. That`s the essence of involuntary manslaughter and what the state is trying to prove.

PINSKY: So, what I suggest is we give Ryan gloves and Lauren gloves and put you guys in the ring. We`ll see who wins.


LAKE: We`re back at it, Ryan.



PINSKY: Keep the sparring going. I`ll get you some head gear so nobody gets hurt.


PINSKY: Up next, -- thank you, guys -- medicine man or ladies man. Stunning revelations from the defendant`s girlfriends, all four of them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very good. Very well.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the charge defense of involuntary manslaughter felony, Dr. Murray, how do you plead?

MURRAY: Your honor, I`m an innocent man. I, therefore, plead not guilty.



PINSKY: Tonight, explosive testimony today in the Michael Jackson death trial. Dr. Conrad Murray faces up to four years for involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors today called Conrad Murray`s lovely girlfriends, past and present, to testify.

The ladies testified that they were on the phone with him the day the King of Pop, Michael Jackson, died while under Dr. Conrad Murray`s care. But, who are all these ladies in Dr. Conrad Murray`s life? Watch this.




ANDING: Sade, S-A-D-E, Anding, A-N-D-I-N-G.

ALVAREZ: My name is Nicole Alvarez.

BRAZIL: Did you meet him in a social setting?


BRAZIL: And the two of you formed a relationship?


BRAZIL: Did you meet him at a social-type club?


BRAZIL: Were you working in the club?


BRAZIL: Did he give you his telephone number?

BELLA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.


PINSKY: Nicole Alvarez who shares a son with Dr. Murray appeared unfazed by taking the same stand. She had jurors smirking with her bubbly recollections of meeting Jackson and showing him her baby bump. Then tonight, we`re going to try to make sense of all of these women in Dr. Murray`s life.

Straight to my panel, I`m back with Lauren Lake, attorney and life coach, Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney, and also, I`ve got the spiritual advisor to Dr. Conrad Murray, Rev. Lewis Logan. Rev. Lewis Logan, let me start with you. How long have you been with Dr. Murray, and can you help us understand what sort of man he is?

REV. LEWIS LOGAN, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR TO CONRAD MURRAY: Dr. Murray and I met, perhaps, I would say late August, late July, early August. He was stationed here, and some of his friends and family members sought out a way to, at his request, find some spiritual support for him. And I found him to be, especially in this particular context, deeply pensive and introspective person.

PINSKY: And you speak with him now everyday. How is he holding up during all this? I mean, I, at times, you know, people -- Michael Jackson`s fans are brutal, and they get very upset if I say something like this, but I have actually felt very sad for Dr. Conrad Murray. I think he got in way over his head. How is he dealing with things?

LOGAN: Well, I feel sad for the entire situation.

PINSKY: Right.

LOGAN: I`m a Michael Jackson fan.

PINSKY: Right. That`s right.

LOGAN: Like everybody else, and felt very torn when requested to provide some spiritual encouragement for Dr. Murray, because you don`t want to be vilified as the person who`s trying to substantiate the man`s innocence or corroborate his culpability, but I just simply felt compelled as a pastor to recognize that anybody who requests a pastor should be availed to some spiritual support and encouragement.


LOGAN: So, that`s what I tried to do for him.

PINSKY: And he is a human being, even though, people like to, you know, make him out to be a villain, and maybe you could help us with this. You know, what -- how -- what is there something you know about him that the public doesn`t know that we can help us get our heads around who he is.

LOGAN: Well, that`s a good question. In contrast to what, you know, the prosecution seems to be attempting to paint him as a ladies man, I found him to be a father, doting and caring father on many occasions. He`s talked of making sure that his daughter was situated in school and that his children were, you know, taken care of.

And he`s extremely committed to his children, and I found that to be something I resonate with because I`m a father, as well.

PINSKY: I don`t mean to be disparaging of Dr. Murray, but with all the different moms, I don`t know. To me, I`m glad to hear (INAUDIBLE) proper care, but you know what I`m saying?

LOGAN: Hey, well, you know, I can`t account for, you know, the number of mothers. That`s not what`s on trial here. It`s what happened with respect to Michael Jackson and his care for Michael Jackson.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

LOGAN: His life is his personal life. He asked me to be help and encouragement to him. But, when he talks about his children, he talks about them in a glowing sense. He talks about his own childhood and his relationship with his parents, and he values relationships.

PINSKY: Interesting. I`m glad for the kids for that effect. And now, here are some of the most crucial witnesses in the whole trial. Conrad`s girlfriends. Here are four of them. Nicole Alvarez, she`s the mother of Conrad`s youngest child and he`s accused -- that`s who he is accused of shipping the propofol to her apartment.

Bridgette Morgan, she met Conrad Murray in a club back in 2003. Sade Anding, she`s a cocktail waitress who also met Dr. Murray in a club, some say, a strip club. Some say she was on the phone with Conrad Murray when he dropped the phone that night Michael Jackson died. Michelle Bella who recalled meeting Murray at a Las Vegas -- in Las Vegas in 2008, the year before, obviously, Michael Jackson did die.

Now, Mark, what will the testimony of these women achieve? Are we, again, just blowing smoke or we`re just trying to, you know, tear his character down, or as we talked about earlier with Ryan, is it just all about getting a timeline straight?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there are a number of things that were achieved today. First, the prosecutors got in evidence that they normally would never would have gotten in. Essentially, bad character evidence that here`s a guy with strong emotions with lots of baby mamas running around. That would never come into a trial, but for, they`re part of the timeline.

So, prosecutors got that in. But secondly, if he actually was on the phone with one of his girlfriends when Michael Jackson went into cardiac arrest, then the timeline that he gave to paramedics was completely bogus. And that I think would really be damaging to him.

PINSKY: Now, Lauren, you`ve been the strongest defense advocate for Dr. Murray. Do you have any response to that?

LAKE: I do. I think we`ve already heard testimony that suggests that he wasn`t wearing a watch. So, the initial timeline he may have given to paramedics may have nothing to do with reality. When you`re panicking, when you`re trying to deal with a patient that you feel responsible for and you`re not wearing a watch, you can call out numbers to the best of your ability, but they may not be correct until you observe later.

PINSKY: Mark, how do you respond to that? You`re usually the one - - go ahead.

EIGLARSH: I`ve got to ask Lauren this question.

LAKE: Yes.

EIGLARSH: How do you get past giving propofol in the home? How does that not lead to a situation that ultimately led to his demise? My five-year-old thought that was inappropriate. He knows better.

LAKE: And you know what, we have to concede to that. There`s no way you can say that giving propofol in a home is going to be correct, but what you can say is you`re dealing with a superstar that travels with police escorts, that probably can close down a restaurant and eat.

Those are the type of people that are going to have drugs that they shouldn`t have in their home, and you better believe that Michael Jackson knew it was there.

PINSKY: But I agree with you, but that`s where my profession failed him right there, because --


PINSKY: Guys, I have to go to break. Go ahead, Mark, last comment, real quick. Ten seconds.

EIGLARSH: Breaking news, his fingerprints were not found on any bottles of propofol. How is the defense going to get around that?

PINSKY: All right. We got to take a break. We have my jury when we come back. Stay here with us.


PINSKY: Our friend, Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, has unique in site into the Murray trial. He was the doctor for another famous tragic figure, Anna Nicole Smith, and he joins Joy Behar at the top of the hour, so please stay tuned for that.

Now, there you see a shot of the courthouse where the Murray trial will resume tomorrow in downtown Los Angeles. Tonight, I want you to meet one of my jurors. She spends her days at the courthouse and has even gotten one of the coveted seats inside the courtroom. We like to get people that are in that courtroom.

We call them our jurors, and she even met a few of the Jacksons today. This was her third day in the courtroom. To say that she is a huge fan is to underestimate this young lady. Please welcome, Karlene Taylor, who visits Michael Jackson`s house, loves his music, and has already convicted Dr. Conrad Murray.

Karlene, don`t you think that someone who goes to the court almost every day as someone who does that that there may be two sides of the story, perhaps, Dr. Murray`s case may surprise you at some point?


PINSKY: He`s guilty?

TAYLOR: He is guilty.

PINSKY: He killed the man you love?

TAYLOR: Yes, he did. He sure did.

PINSKY: Is there --


PINSKY: And I don`t mean to giggle at this, but -- because it`s such a serious thing, and I know for Michael Jackson fans, there are a lot of people who feel just like you do, but at least don`t we have to give him his day in court and hear what the defense has to say.

I mean, you heard Lauren here today who had a very vigorous defense for Dr. Murray. Is that OK in your mind that the system kind of move forward and function?

TAYLOR: Everyone should have their day in court, definitely, but we see already from all of the evidence that`s been presented, so far, we only just got to day six, and he looks very guilty. I don`t think he can be redeemed.

PINSKY: How do you think the prosecution is doing? Give them a grade for me.

TAYLOR: I think they have an A- right now.

PINSKY: A-. What do they need to do to get an A+ from you?

TAYLOR: Stop Chernoff from talking.


PINSKY: Completely. He makes you angry.


PINSKY: What did you think of all the ladies up on the stand today. That was kind -- it`s hard for me to swallow that he had all of his girlfriends come and all the baby mamas, that was tough.

TAYLOR: That was the reason why he was in Michael Jackson`s house, it was greed. He had to support all of these women. I loved to hear the girlfriend testimony, though, but he had to have money to support all these women. They don`t come free.

PINSKY: Not just the women, but also all the kids, too. And we -- some speculate that he was using Michael Jackson, actually, to pick up women. But that`s for a later day. Thank you, Karlene. I appreciate you joining us. Hopefully, we`ll check in with you again soon.

Of course, I think you`re all aware we had breaking news this hour. Amanda Knox landed in Seattle after being acquitted in murder in Italy and spoke out for the first time since her release. Listen to this.


AMANDA KNOX, ACQUITTED OF MURDER IN ITALY: What`s important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who`s believed in me, who`s defended me, who`s supported my family. Ahm -- I just want -- my family is the most important thing to me right now, and I just want to go be with them. So, thank you for being there for me.



PINSKY: Amanda, it is our pleasure.

Quick final thought. This girl needs time to heal and be with her family. That`s very smart for her to do that. It`s natural for us all to want to know what she has been through, but we have to let her have her space, begin to heal. Hopefully, she will share this experience and let us know how she got through this.

Be here next time. We`ll see you then.