10 – 35

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“Who’s Kuriwa?” Ingvar asked, frowning.


Adimel sighed.




In short, it was an elven grove.








Adimel chuckled, shaking his head.



































“You need to leave.”






“Bet you don’t,” Flora muttered.

















“They won’t,” Fauna said simply.










“Ain’t that the truth,” Joe agreed.









“Huh,” said Joe.

“Yup,” Darling agreed.
















The thing that emerged was wholly bizarre and oddly…cute.




“Uh,” said Ingvar.







It was, at least, a smiling face.



“I think it’s trying to communicate,” Darling observed.

























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60 thoughts on “10 – 35

  1. Unless we break 150 votes on TWF the next chapter will be five thousand words of Ravana teaching Scorn table manners.

    Relax, I’m kidding.

    Or am I? (I am.)

    See you Wednesday, true believers!


    1. But I *want* five thousand words of Ravana teaching Scorn table manners!

      I will grant it’s maybe not the best time to do it, but… I’d be way less put out than you seem to expect!

      Liked by 3 people

    2. Very much not expected.

      Can’t say I like science fantasy predecessors/explanations in general.

      Lets see where this.goes.exactly, but I think I won’t particularly care.for.it, sadly.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. I have to say it: you Webb are one of the few authors that costantly surprise me….Thank you! Now I am really looking foward to see what Darling will do with the new knowledge…

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Oh wow. So Arachne comes from Araneid…

    Webb, have you ever read Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny?

    This explains Eserion and Vesk talking physics during the game, too.

    I wish I could have access to that database myself… I’m bursting with questions!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Arachne and Araneid being one and the same was the conclusion I jumped to as well.

      Not necessarily accurately though.


  4. So…it was a project…that probably explains, why the Elder gods treated all beings as breeding stock.

    From the music of songbirds of the Elven Grove into the Vault, I feel like the temperature in my room dropped while reading.
    But what would a shaman need there?

    I am concerned about the ‘unknown’ Order members and I have a guess about the uncertain one.

    As a not-native-english speaker I don’t always get the fine nuances of some phrases, and I’m starting to wonder about “holding his peace” and why it is attached to Ingvar?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I, as non-native english speaker myself, understand “holding his peace” as him staying quiet, with the implication that he does have something to say but refrains from it.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. You’re not wrong, but you’re missing a subtlety of meaning, implication, and association. If you don’t know what I’m talking about and care, I suggest you ask a native speaker of English.


  5. This gives me so many thoughts… I need to share. I’m assuming a similiar situation here like in Lord of Light, which would explain why the gods are bastards.

    The Infinite Order/Elder Gods were humans who used the planet for experiments. They are responsible for pretty much every living being in the world now, having created all of them. Each of them was/is the source for one kind of magic, which now seems to be a certain brand of hyper-advanced technology. The ascension seems to have certain drawbacks, which might include loss of humanity and dependence on aspects. This could be explained if there’s a computer in the background taking care of all the details, since a normal human mind could never deal with all the data the gods handle. For example, when Vidius restored the campus instantly he probably just willed it to happen and something else did all the work. The downside is that if an aspect is invoked (like Avei’s judgement), then the god will have to go along with it.

    The current pantheon of gods seems to have learned from the mistakes of their predecessors. They seem to retain more of their humanity in exchange of wielding less power. Now that I think about it, didn’t they imply last chapter that the remaining elder gods were weakened by their ascension? Naiya is still the single most powerful goddess on the planet, imagine how scary strong she had to be before the war.

    The Avatar said the status of Araneid is uncertain, which is frustratingly vague. Assuming that Arachne is somehow connected to Araneid… I wonder, who created the caretaker golems? 8 arms… was it Araneid? Was Arachne subconciously accessing her lost memory when she created her own golem? Is that the reason it’s so advanced? (Yeah, flimsy evidence)

    The gods have to be aware of all that. They said they need to protect her… why? If she -is- Araneid, then she’s the only member of the Infinite Order they can use easily. Does Arachne retain admin access to the system and they keep her around as a contingency? Probably easier to get Arachne to do them a favour instead of asking Naiya or Scyllith. But it also seems they don’t believe she is a former elder god. If that’s Arachne’s story to begin with.

    Does Arachne know any of this? I’m still missing some rather big pieces here.

    Is this knowledge connected to the secret of Elilial’s betrayal?

    In Lord of Light the gods were bastards because they possessed advanced technology, could essentially make everyone immortal… but instead opted to suppress technology and installed themselves as rulers of the world based on Hindu religion, with a caste system and everything.
    If this pantheon does the same, then it would explain why we haven’t seen steam engines, gunpowder etc yet… but on the other hand, people have easy access to magic, which seems to be a safer, cleaner alternative. And some inventors have started to build a steam engine without being smitten. In some ways magic is superior to technology, just compare wands with guns. Or the Rail, which is impossibly fast compared to our highspeed trains.

    … ugh, this is way too big to think about. I guess I’ll wait and see where it goes. ^^

    Ok, what are Flora and Fauna doing here, too? Are they secretly following Darling? Does he know? Did Mary put them up to this? Was it their own idea? It would fit into Darling’s modus operandi to bring some backup as he steps into unknown areas.

    I remember that Mary told Ingvar that he needed to experience and discover things for himself, he couldn’t be told directly because he would reject that new knowledge. And now that the history of the Infinite Order is revealed, I fully agree with Mary: There is no way anyone would believe this just by being told.
    Even more, this spirit quest wasn’t just for Ingvar, it was for us, the readers, too.

    I don’t know yet how I feel about all of this. Until now this was a fantasy story, although a rather new blend with steampunk and western elements. Now there’s sci-fi… or is there? Does it matter that the Infinite Order came from space when there’s only magic powering everything now?

    Food for thought.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. So having had a little while to think about it, I’m not sure this actually changes very much.

      Okay, so the Elder Gods were originally scientists, and they created the planet as a research station. This is new and revelatory, but we always knew the Elder Gods were originally mortals and really, why would it matter to anyone why they created the world? In particular, I’m not sure why the Pantheon would suppress this information (I’m assuming they know it; last chapter tells us that they know the name “Infinite Order”). Everyone already knows that the Elders created the modern sapient races, and if they eventually became tyrants, who cares that they were originally researchers?

      It does imply the possibility (as Daemion suggests) that Bastardverse physics are fundamentally the same as real-world physics, and all the magic in the story is the result of some hypertech running in the background and making it work. I’d tentatively disagree with that hypothesis; the way Avatar 03 talks about the ascension, I’d say it sounds more like it was already a known natural phenomenon in that universe that the Infinite Order came here to study, rather than something that was made possible by their technology.

      I do like the Avatar’s implication that the Elders coming to think of themselves as actual gods is what led to their downfall. Then again, the term “ascended” isn’t exactly neutral either. 😛

      Incidentally, this is starting to feel a bit like Brandon Sanderson’s cosmere. I am 100% in favour of this.

      I am now hoping that ten years from now, when Webb is an internationally famous fantasy author, he will write some book that ends with a group of scientists travelling to a different solar system to found a new planet, and those of us who’ve been with him from the beginning will feel immensely smug.

      Liked by 4 people

      1. Actually the way the Avatar spoke Ascension is not naturally ocuring since they traveled to that solar system to fulfill the Ascension Project. Notice that in the story that is capitalized just the way I wrote, which signifies that is a name just like the WWII Manhattan Project. The way it reads is that you had a group of scientists and engineers that were in the minority in the society they belonged to that did not agree with the goals of the Ascension Project and. The reason I say that is that the name Infinite Order sounds like the name a fanatic gives to a cult not the name of an aboveboard R&D outfit studying a natural phenomenon because if it was natural they didn’t need to slink of into a place where they are essentially cut off with the rest of humanity. If you haven’t read David Weber’s Honorverse books look up the entity known as The Mesan Alignment because that is what the Infinite Order reminds me of crossed with the Jenoine from the Vlad Taltos books, especially since we have specified objects of Chaos in the TGaBverse.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Definitely a lot of similarities with Lord of Light, at least in terms of the Elder Gods. This just makes the current Pantheon’s motives all the more confusing, though: Why haven’t they told anyone this? Why not make everyone immortal (assuming it’s possible), after going through all that trouble to overthrow the Infinite Order? Are we just looking at a situation like so many real-world revolutions, where the victors are quickly corrupted by their new power and wind up just as bad as the people they overthrew?

      If we assume the new gods are in fact bastards, then they’re being much cleverer about it than the ones in Lord of Light: Rather than suppressing technology, they’re giving their people a cheaper, safer, more convenient alternative that is entirely fake. If arcane magic doesn’t work anywhere outside of this planet then it can never be used to get to space, and if it’s artificial then studying it won’t teach anyone more general insights that can be used to defy the gods.

      Of course, the problem with that hypothesis is that the source of arcane magic is still a giant mystery, so who the hell knows how it works. Also, I’m not sure yet that Bastardverse magic is just Sufficiently Advanced Technology – I think “ascension” might be a natural thing in that universe.

      On a more concrete note, I think F&F just followed Darling because they’re protective of him and wanted to be able to help him out if he got into trouble. Also because they were bored and adventures are exciting.

      Also note the difference between Araneid’s “uncertain” status and Druroth and Vrel Heyd’s “unknown”. I think that means that the computer has some data on Arachne (let’s not be coy; it’s definitely Arachne) but not enough for a definitive status report, whereas it has totally lost track of the other two.

      Hmmm… could one of them be the source of arcane magic? That seems a bit too neat.

      Wait! If Arachne is the source of arcane magic, that explains why the Pantheon don’t want to kill her! Except the Pantheon didn’t believe her story and therefore don’t necessarily believe she’s an Elder God at all – but we don’t know exactly what that story was, so they might believe she’s an Elder but not believe her about some other part related to Scyllith, and ow my head hurts. 😦


      1. Yes, I ran into the exact same thing. If they know what we know, then they should believe Arachne… it all comes down to us not knowing what Arachne’s lifelong quest was all about.


    3. If you google Araneid you find that it is a family of spider:

      The family is cosmopolitan, including many well-known large or brightly colored garden spiders. With around 3,100 species in 169 genera worldwide, Araneidae is the third-largest family of spiders (behind Salticidae and Linyphiidae).[1] Araneid webs are constructed in a stereotyped fashion. A framework of nonsticky silk is built up before the spider adds a final spiral of silk covered in sticky droplets.


      So whatever was done to Arachne messed with her head and when she popped up in front of Shiraki some 3000 years ago and was asked what her name was and she had trouble answering, she probably knew it had something to do with spiders and latched onto Arachne instead of her original name.


      1. Before she ran into Shiraki, she spent some time with Elilial and together they kicked Scyllith’s butt. That means Elilial knows who she is and her original name.

        She didn’t say her name was Arachne, she said, “…you can call me Arachne.” Slight difference but probably significant.


  6. I think the Elder Elf is out of luck in keeping that technology out of the wrong hands for some simple reasons:

    1) I highly doubt that there was only one research station on the planet, especially when you factor in how they didn’t all see eye to eye on the whole god “thing” when they ascended, so they probably would have more than one facility.

    2) We know the present Pantheon ascended somewhere around 8000 years ago which means they had to use the Elders equipment. After doing so and setting themselves up as gods does anyone really believe they would leave the equipment they used sitting under an Elf Grove where some Elf that found out about it and got a bug up his/her ass wouldn’t use it instead of going to the place of the spirits and becoming a Headhunter.

    3) The AI, for lack of a better term at this point, stated to Ingvar that there was ways to mess with the ascended:


    The odds that it takes the equipment of the Infinite Order (Nice Star Wars the Old Republic reference) is almost 100%. We also know the the current crop of Ascended have been interfered with by how they react to Justinian’s name.

    Add it all together and I say it is highly likely that Justinian has access to something like Data Vault 03


    1. Agreed.

      I’ve got to wonder though… Arachne told her students she doesn’t know how ascension works, she even stated only the gods do.

      That would mean that either the data vaults don’t contain that information (although the avatar sounded like it does), Arachne is unaware of their existence (highly unlikely since hundreds of shamans and adventurers visited it) or she’s lying to her students, which seems a bit out of character.


      1. Arachne’s practical, though. She doesn’t like lying, but something like this would probably just get her students killed.

        Speaking of knowledge that gets people killed, is this (part of) what Ellial refused to tell Darling?


      2. Arachne not lying is a myth, likely created so she has credibility when she lies. Proof: She lied to the man who was one of the members of the Wreath responsible for killing the eight girls possessed with demons at the beginning of the series.

        I think that’s ultimately unrelated. I think she knows about the Data Vaults, but they don’t contain the information of how to ascend, just the related information.


    2. Goods are ruled by their aspects, and if I’m reading Ingvar’s quests correctly, by the ideas of their followers. So, what if this is a biological computer running in brains and multi-dimensional physics?


    1. That said, Joe was a good straight man to use to keep the exposition moving, and it has a number of implications for the world. Including that a fair number of elvish shamans and gnomish adventurers over the centuries apparently know about this, which means it can’t be that secret – it sounds like too many for a successful conspiracy to suppress.


    2. I’ve seen it done once before, but that was in a book where that twist was basically the whole point. I think it’s made stronger by coming after ten whole books’ worth of epic fantasy played totally straight. Revelations as to the nature of the universe hit much harder when the universe in question is one we already care about.

      But I will admit I am kind of a sucker for sudden twists that other people sometimes call gimmicky, so to each their own.


  7. So… just when did Justinian decide to hijack the project? And, is he only the latest in a subversive line of alternate researchers who probably don’t have full systems access? Yet. :/


  8. One more thought: All the members of the Infinite Order were human to begin with. That means Araneid was one, too. Arachne is a wood elf.

    If you look at her behaviour 3000 years ago, one could think that she was created artificially. Complete lack of knowledge about the world, language as if she learned it from a dictionary and prodigal talent for arcane magic. No known family anywhere. Possible lack of memory (going by Kaisa’s comment about Arachne not knowing her own age).

    On the other hand, some of the drow worship her. But that could be related to her adventure down there as Arachne. The Crawl recognized and likes her. It and Last Rock were created by an elder god.

    What if Araneid created Arachne? Maybe as an experiment to harness arcane magic? Or maybe Araneid’s mind was copied into Arachne, but not completely.

    Or maybe Arachne was an anti-god weapon prototype that got lost during the war and the current pantheon keeps her around just in case they need to get rid of Naiya or Scyllith? I mean, she killed one god, helped to kill another and it seems the pantheon takes her threats seriously despite the apparent power difference.

    So many possibilities… and that’s nothing compared to what today’s revelation could mean.


  9. Not the biggest revelation here today – but it’s intriguing that gnome adventurers are held in such high esteem and trust by the elves that they are granted access to this secret that otherwise only shamans of their own people are shown. Nod to the Hobbit, I think, but likely also a hint of some in-universe significance of gnomes that we don’t know about yet.


  10. About Flora and Fauna: Are elves capable of recognizing them as Headhunters or not? Because they were confused about how Kuriwa and Arachne found out, but everytime they come into contact with other elves the get recognized as Headhunters. So is it in their aura, but why wouldn’t they themselves not know it?


  11. About Flora and Fauna : Maybe not by all Elves, but the Guards send to them were certainly told by their Elder or Mary why those two have to go or at least be guarded.

    With their connection/possession by raging spirits there should be something that shamans and witches can detect/feel. And as it was revealed in the Spirit-Hunt Storyline sometimes practitioners get told things by the spirits. And I guess thats something a spirit of the land would tell a Elder of a Grove. Last Point : the two of them distributed the last of their tribe to other Groves after they freed them from Kadziroth, so they are known at least in Elf-Circles.

    To the Twist. Thats the one thing I would not have guessed, also I always thought Sci-Fi and Fantasy were no mutual exclusive genres. And it explains so much more about Kuriwas extensive knowledge of human anatomy and the use of modern medical terms.

    It reminds me a bit of John Ringos Nanowar Series where Humans fuckery with Nanotech and Genetics made it more or less a Fantasy Setting.

    And who else would be a better Space Faring Race than undying Elves.
    Who left the World at the end of the Third Age in their Ships and to the West .. 😉
    And they brought some Human Guinnea Pigs as breeding stock .. yup.
    And two Halflings, ( Hopefully 4 🙂

    Storywise there is so revealed.

    This is the big secret of the Black Wreath.
    It’s part of the Origin of Arachne and maybe answer to what the heck her quest was.
    And it gives us 3 new names of maybe very powerfull players who are yet to be revealed.
    And maybe Ingvars Quest is about Justitian. Shaath is a Member of the Pantheon, he is not the only one bound or webbed or trapped. Ingvar dreamt a lot of different pictures.


    1. I don’t think that’s the big secret of the Black Wreath, there are too many independent players aware of it. If Elilial is right, then everyone who talked to the avatar about it would be killed instantly by the gods.

      Agreed about Arachne, although now I have to wonder if she’s aware that these data vaults exists.

      Three more elder gods we never knew about before. I find it unlikely that they are merely in hiding, I think they are dead, imprisoned or similiarly unable to interact with the world anymore.

      Agreed about Ingvar’s quest being connected to Justinian. Although I thought that Mary was aware what it was about… so she knows the Archpope is manipulating the entire pantheon?


  12. Not that I don’t greatly appreciate all the votes on TWF, but I really was kidding about that! There will be no holding chapters hostage for votes.


  13. Adventuring gnomes seem to be allowed everywhere. Dragon infested mountain ranges, Athan-Khar, The Delve, ancient elven groves…

    I don’t like this twist. I don’t like reading fantasy for ten books only to have the rug pulled out from beneath me and it’s revealed to actually be sci-fi.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. hmmm. infris is scylitth, i think. arachne a chile of araneid, clone or some such.

    Its not neccesarily sci fi. Yes, they came on a ship from another world, but its still likely magic, just higher tech magic than they currently have on this planet.


    1. In my mind, planet travelling counts as sci-fi. I don’t particularly care for there to be interplanetary travel in this series. It’s possible I’m being overly pessimistic, but my initial reaction is that this was a bad turn.


  15. Magic built on tech is a plot twist that can kill a story in inexpert hands. With DD, I remain cautiously optimistic.

    Darling probably needs clean pants – the Thieves’ Guild doesn’t exist to find out secrets but secrets are insanely useful to people like that. He must be ecstatic.

    Hopefully we will find out why some of these facts aren’t common knowledge. This is the sort of thing that multiple cults and individuals would literally kill for, so the barriers against the release of such knowledge must be insanely strong.


  16. Long time reader, first time commenter. First just want to say, love the story.

    Secondly, cautiously optimistic about the twist. I don’t usually like science fiction and fantasy mixing but if anyone can pull it off it’s Webb.

    Now on to baseless speculation!
    Justinian is Scyllith or is her agent. I have nothing backing this opinion up, but after the last two chapters that what I think.

    That or he’s looking to ascend and become ALL POWERFUL.

    They aren’t mutually exclusive.


    1. Plot twist: Justinian wants to do to the Pantheon what Scyllith did to Araneid, and the Pantheon is clueless because they won’t believe Arachne’s story (and thus the warning).


  17. So, just found and binge-read this serial last week. This is the first update since I finished my read-through. Just off the top, gotta say I love the story, the setting and the characters so far.

    Based on this chapter and what we already know, here’s my hypothesis about Arachne:

    She’s what’s left of Araneid. Most of her being was dispersed across the world to create the arcane magic field, but her core consciousness or whatever became Arachne. She lost some, if not most, of her memory and knowledge of her previous life.

    I figure there are two possible culprits here: either the Pantheon, or Scyllith.

    If it was the Pantheon (possibly some or all of them), then it’s also why Elilial “betrayed” them; she objected to it, or helped preserve what’s left of Araneid. The Elder Goddess may have helped them like Naiya did during the war, or was a neutral third party or something, and after they ascended they decided to rip her apart so mortals could use her power. This may also be the big secret they kill people over.

    If it was Scyllith, on the other hand, then Araneid was possibly originally another Goddess of the Drow, like Themynra. It’d explain why Arachne was down there kicking her ass alongside Elilial.

    Either way, Scyllith had another trick: she wiped the knowledge of who and what Arachne is/was from everyone and everything, up to an including the Gods. Either they did this to Arachne and don’t remember it, or they don’t remember her ever being an Elder God before and didn’t believe her when she said it.

    Justinian may have figured out some or all of this, and is planning to do something similar to the Pantheon. If he doesn’t actually want to uplift all of humanity like he told the four Bishops, he may try to bring all the other Gods down to Arachne’s state and claim their power for himself.


  18. Stopping again (2 chapters in a row?) on my re-read to note… I was surprised, but didn’t feel blindsided, much less betrayed, by this twist on first reading. On second, I feel like the subtle hints were there from pretty early on. I mean, multiple times, we see the ancient and powerful characters throwing out comments or having conversations about advanced, contemporary knowledge of physics, medicine, etc., which seemed completely anachronistic in the context. This, combined with the fact established fairly early that the gods were all once humans, well. It doesn’t exactly scream “science fiction!” or anything, but it certainly laid the foundation in such a way that revealing that the first gods, at least, were scientists, doesn’t come across as an ass-pull for me.

    I also don’t see that this actually changes the story that much – and bear in mind, I’m avoiding spoilers but speaking from foreknowledge through the latest chapter as of feb. 2017. Some comments, people are talking about it like they expect the custodian ‘bot to become a main character and the next class trip for the sophomore class to be hopping a space ship to go play Star Trek.

    Is it a big revelation that will be important to the story? Absolutely. Does it necessarily fundamentally change the story? Not so much.


  19. Finally, was waiting for that since the comment about the stars being wrong like a million chapters back.


  20. Alright, how come NO ONE else has bothered to mention that Web just inserted one of the most famous sci-fi characters in history into his story? Ladies and Gentlemen, R2-D2 has entered the building; hold on to your butts.


  21. And most importantly…

    This explains how Arachne knows Yiddish!

    (Okay, not most importantly. But the “kvetch” joke was indeed a gun on the mantlepiece; Arachne had to have knowledge of our world, though I was expecting it to be an alternate plane.)


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