If CICO doesn‘t work (as per Fung) why does IF work?

(Doug) #102

CICO or not has got to be best long-term argument going here. :smile:

I’d say that obviously, it works - it has to work, it’s just physical reality. We’re not talking about ‘magic’ - boil it down enough and to a vast extent our weight is dependent on atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen coming and going.

This is not to say that “CICO” alone and in it’s most primitive/misunderstood form will necessarily be a good way for a given person to lose weight. It’s certainly not for me, nor for hundreds of millions or even billions of people, worldwide. This is because of the hormonal effects - well addressed by several people, above - that can alter the equation.

CICO is just the messenger - saying what’s happening. If we change the equation by having such hormonal effects - a slowing metabolism, being in ‘fat-storage’ mode rather than in ‘fat-burning’ mode due to high insulin, etc., then we’re not disproving CICO, we’re just denying the very premise of it.

The odds are extremely high, indeed. Jenny Craig’s own figures showed only a 0.5% success rate for their customers losing weight and keeping it off for two years afterwards.

Yeah, the individual has to be open to it, or at least open to something other than the poorly-working dietary advice that is ingrained in them. People do “get religion” about diets, and sometimes at the best it’s like pushing on a string, trying to convert them (even though keto may be the best avenue for them).

There are many individuals and corporations with a monetary interest in keeping people away from ketogenic diets - there’s a constant barrage of silly, untruthful, half-truthful, deliberately misleading articles, blog posts, even studies, etc. - sometimes it’s hard not to rant and rave and be zealous…


Since being on keto I notice all the many many advertisements everywhere ( TV Internet magazines) that claim weight loss and all the rest - working HARD to get there with sports and less calories. Drinking cans of some protein mush which is supposed to taste like strawberries or ready made meagre meal plans. I have tried every diet under the sun and always lost weight, only to regain it. It makes me sad- and angry too. The worst thing of all is making people who suffer from obesity into some kind of culprit who is a “glutton” and can’t control himself. isn’t gluttony one of the 7 sins? So we are SINNERS? Thats enough of a negative stigma isnt it? Add this to the fact that many cannot stand it if a person is not attractive to them. They need us to be sexy for their own benefit, and they oftentimes seem somehow immune to a kind nature, nice personality, intelligence, or anything else of value underneath the surface. Shame on THEM. Bottom line: Nobody should be shamed for insulin resistance.


As long as the mainstream thinks that calories in and calories out is all that matters, the mainstream will continue to believe the cure is eat less and move more. Thus, the overweight will continue to be stigmatized as gluttonous and lazy.

Not to put too much on the general level of human intelligence, but if Jenny Craig’s success rate long term is 0.5% one could reasonably conclude that it isn’t as simple as they think and doesn’t work like they think it must. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #105

Aint it ironic that Jenny Craig’s success rate is why they rake in the $M’s…

If it was much better, they might go out of business, because people would figure out they don’t need Jenny to fix their meals for them.

(Doug) #106

Well, Chantarella, I probably should be, because I pushed it/abused myself for years and decades after I knew I wasn’t really serving myself well with the gratuitous excess. :wink: I admit it - I was an idiot and still am, once in a while. In the end, though, it was up to me, and I did change substantially. And it’s really that way for us all, as individuals, almost always - granted that there are some really tough situations and a great range of difficulty depending on our personal existences.

For all the competing weight loss methods and strategies, when I finally did see that I really had to make a change (thanks to finally getting to full-fledged Type 2 diabetic status) it only took an hour or so before I was reading Dr. Fung’s blog - a resource of vast value - and commentors there led me to the Two Keto Dudes. This was all the same afternoon, and I started fasting that day; went for 4.5 days and chickened out on a Sunday night - not because I was hungry but because I worried about being low-energy for work the next day. Also did a lot of strict keto days, and it paid off fast - weight loss and much better blood sugar and A1C readings.

Quite a few people asked me about my weight loss, and some of them were instantly turned off by the extreme restriction of carbohydrates; they just cannot face it. Yet I think for all of them, the carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis is at work just as it is for me, and for a huge mass of humanity - CDC says 1/3 of Americans will be fully diabetic in 30 years, and 1/3 of the entire world a couple decades later.

(Bunny) #107

I personally think that what’s not being accounted for is the calories already on-board; are not being configured into the equation, then you know more specific numbers your dealing with?

If you have an X amount calories on-board what difference does the calories you are adding to it or subtracting from eating them going to make if you don’t know what you already have?

If you have a lot of fat on-board, that is a lot of cargo?

You have adipose fat, then liver glycogen and skeltal muscle glycogen to account for in calories; then your throwing food on top of that thinking your going to count or burn something other than burn up your muscle tissue in the process which in turn is going to make you gain more fat mass?


Are you saying that you began fasting without being fat adapted? Without eating keto first?

(Doug) #109

Somewhat - I was only eating one meal per day, fairly often (just black coffee in the morning and nothing for lunch). So I’m guessing there was some fat-adaptation there - once in a while would even miss an entire day of eating. But never any carb-restriction (and the evenings often had a LOT of carbs), nor was I aware of what “keto” was. Way back when, I’d read at least part of Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution - probably in the 1980s - but had never done anything like that.

Hey - the Type 2 diabetes diagnosis scared me - I was very motivated. In the second day of fasting I got that really nice “lightness of being” feeling, the body not being burdened with digestion. Dr. Fung’s writing on fasting seemed to be proving out for me, and I was totally convinced I was doing something really good and necessary for myself. This overwhelmed any transient hunger, mental urges to eat, etc.


Just seems really tough to me - out of SAD into a fast. But there are a lot of people who do it, I guess. I am still in awe of EF. It simply happened to me “by chance” the other day because I was SO not hungry- but it somehow scares me. But I hope it happens again! That sense of not needing any food is so freeing. I am just not hungry and simply skip a few meals- great! I dont really have ambitions for many days. Once for 24 hours every now and then would be nice. Otherwise I am going for IF.


@Chantarella I did a 14 day fast many years ago, essentially just on a whim to see if I could. I started keto the first week of Jan 2017 with a 4-day water fast. I was not in ketosis at the start of either. In both cases, my hunger peaked on day 2 and by day 3 hunger was gone (because I was in ketosis). At the end of the 14 day fast I didn’t want to start eating again because I felt so ‘clean and clear’ inside that I didn’t want to mess it up! I currently do 10-12 hour IF, which includes my overnight sleep time, several days each week. Since I’m in ketosis all the time, this is easy peasy.

(Doug) #112

:+1: I think this is a fairly common thing. On the other hand, many people really do take a while to get fat-adapted or at least really feeling that way - it seems that six weeks is a good average.


@OldDoug I was not fat adapted at any time during those two fasts. I’m of the school of thought that fat adaptation is a gradual process. Most folks seem to reach a point at several weeks to a couple months or so when they begin ‘to feel different’ and interpret that to mean they’re fat adapted. I think they are, at least good enough, and will continue to get better adapted over the next many months and/or years if they stay in ketosis consistently.

(Doug) #114

Michael - agreed, most people keep going with improvements in fat-burning for months if not years. I think it varies a huge amount, person-to-person, how they will feel when they start fasting. I was still gaining weight and usually eating a lot of carbs when I started my fasting program, so I doubt I had much of true ‘fat-adaptation,’ either, unless very sporadic one-day fasts and one meal per day, usually, had given me some.


I am definately looking for easy peasy. I am no masochist. I also do not think that I am 100% fat adapted ( if 100% even exists). I think some days I am, and others I am not, even though I am in ketosis the whole time. I too believe that for some people like me (older and sedentary with a history of more than 200g carbs per day) it might just take longer. But it is kind of magical when it happens and the hunger just disappears and the last thing I am interested in is food. AMAZING.


Once I fasted for 5 days out of curiosity, I ate HCHF back then. It was very easy, I am really a not controlled hedonist, I don’t resist temptation and eat when get hungry (on any diet, I typically eat way before I get hungry but nice satiation isn’t a problem either. but when I get hungry, I surely eat, it’s basic) - but if I get determined, that’s powerful. Too bad it’s so rare!
I had several fasting days in my past, I simply had a negative appetite and I can’t eat in that situation at all. So I had some 40 or something hour fasts without wanting to while eating HCHF. Sometimes I wonder if fat as my possibly/probably primary fuel made a difference or it’s just some personal thing, fasting suits me more than the average person. At least if it’s a short fast.
I did IF way before keto and way before I heard about it. It’s nothing unusual, many people do IF, even OMAD or EF without ever wanting to do low-carb. Keto makes it easier for many of us, it’s true, my eating window diminished due to fat adaptation but many high-carbers do fasts, shorter and longer ones alike. And I guess many long term ketoers have a big eating window because they prefer that for some reason. Not everyone can eat enough in a small eating window especially on keto. So they need a bigger one.