from Doomer V Bloomer

In this episode we talk about (okay, mostly complain about) the anti-civilization and anti-utopian pamphlet: Desert by Anonymous. Is this a doomer text, or can both bloomer and doomer agree that it goes too far? We tried to be fair with our critiques but sectarianism got the better of us and we engage in some shit talking, please forgive us.



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OK: It's hard to know what to do with these two. They are probably the worst podcast since silly willy gilly did one a few years ago. I'm pretty sure one of the hosts talks about not even reading the book in this episode. They are bad faith in every critique. The entire podcast is built upon a false premise of what Desert is, which makes the entire podcast an attack of a straw man. These 2 fucking morons don't even realize that the post-left exists. They think every anarchist is a leftist...which fuck...how can you have an anarchist podcast without even being aware that other people are out there with different ideas. They are fucking jargon monsters and agree monsters. At one point one of them says the lame build the new world shell of the old cliche and the dude laughs at the jargon cliche and then realizes the other person was serious and he just agrees w her because he is a "good man." If these idiots had anyone they dislike on their podcast for even 20 minutes their lives would be ruined. Any nihilist, anti-civ, or post-left human who has engaged in critical thought over anarchy would smash them. I fucking hate this podcast, it's super annoying that they feel they should be putting this out there. Its complete trash and I say this as someone who doesn't even like Desert! I'm probably the only one of my friends who doesn't like it, but it's not for the same reasons as these two idiotic podcasters. If they wrote their critiques as a high school paper for an english or poli sci class they would fucking fail because they have zero reading comprehesion. These two religious zealots for revolution and being good and protest and mutual aid and solidarity and every other margarine word jargon bullshit that is so pervasive in "anarchy" somehow manage to say that Desert is religious. Fucking hold up a mirror for five seconds to yourselves, for fucks sake...The rage at this podcast is strong. Channel Zero is a worthless shit show of fucking trash. This podcast and the fucking moron who does the main podcast w Doug who is obsessed with CSpan combined with the Coffee for Comrades shit which is basically marxist good man dog shit...wtf. IGD is "anarchy" for people who don't want to be challenged on anything but their privilege. These morons are supposedly anarchists but can't stop GROUPTHINKING. It's a problem more pervasive than just the left tho, that shitty egoist podcast recently that talked about leftism was the same, they all fucking agree agree agree, they have no ability to have constructive disagreement and dialogue. Those idiots went to the study group in the bay too, you would think they would have learned! Fuck it all, anarchy is trash, 99.99999% of it is group think unoriginal and uninspired trash

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space to talk about the good and reasonable reasons why *you* don't like desert, right?

and agreed about these two podcasters. and agreed about conversations between people who just agree with each other.

btw though, anarchy is too broad to be contained within your "anarchy is trash" comment, and have you heard of sturgeon's law?

yeah! we respond to abusive rhetoric around here, now I wanna know why they don't like desert too!

mixed feelings about it myself, plus a lot of it almost seems like just stating the obvious as time goes on

Heard of sturgeons law which is funny because I’ve read a couple of his books and now I feel like I would like you a lot ha. I guess what I really meant was that anarchy land is trash and why I’m basically mostly outside of it. I have broader idea of anarchy and it involves probably a lot of similar people. I feel like you have a fondness for the golden age of piracy as well as a lot of the fiction writers I like too which is a more expansive fun anarchy than most of what exists in anarchy land. To your point: I feel like sturgeons law doesn’t take it far enough , 90 percent seems really low. To give a proper critique of desert I’d have to dig up my annotated copy and look it over again, it’s been years since I deep dove it

bro chill they both have valid excuses for not having read the book. bloomer needs to finish their psu homework and the doomer is dope sick at reed.

I didn't make it very far into this.

The idea that one pamphlet or one book is going to be everything and say everything is ludicrous, why do podcasters insist on this formulation? Of course Desert has weak points, of course Desert doesn't cover every contingency.

My main takeaway is Desert is best read after the reader turns 40. The youth still have too much belief in the goodness of others, too much hope in the possibility of change for the better and too much belief in their own capacity to make the ends they think they want.
There won't be global revolution inaugurating the Anarchist utopia because there is no global solution ,ie no one size fits all remedy for the shit we face.
(Not to mention, these podcasters don't see climate catastrophe as happening now because they are not looking much beyond their own noses. Look up children, look to island nations to see climate catastrophe has happened already.)

Listened to the whole thing. The podcasters claim that Desert is religious while reacting to it as though it attacked their religion (because it did). Also at some point (I think about 20 minutes in?) one of the hosts literally makes a "dangerous book" argument. They said they wanted to critique the book in good faith but almost everything they say about it comes across as being the opposite of that.

I really liked your podcast where you talk about the “joe rogan phenomenon” lol.

I’m completely surrounded by people who are deep into JR and it can be pretty annoying day to day. It was very satisfying to hear y’all tear that shit up. In particular that bit about joe phenomena being akin to the blind idiot god azathoth had me DEAD.

It’s crazy, man...

Annoyed that I’ve had multiple people say oh so you’re one of those anarchist who read desert whenever I pose a critique. The level of memehood the left has fallen into is a joke. People don’t like desert because they think it challenges their identity as people who’re going to save the world. At this point I find 90% of anarchists boring and dumb. It’s easier to have conversations with people not inundated with leftist ideals. The struggalistas will be the end of me.

The thing I don't like with Desert is its adherence to Collapsism as well as somewhat endorsing the dominant Climate Change narrative.

Climate Change will be a factor for potential worsening conditions towards a new dark(or dim stagnation) age but it will not be the singular factor or even the proportional lead one. I see energy resource depletion as the bigger factor in collapsing conditions. This is a multi-factorial crisis to say the least.

Unless some type of scalable energy successor to fossil fuels comes along there will be some level of contraction. There has already been a primary stage collapse that began in 1973 with cheap oil going dodo. It really comes down to how successful substitutional('green') energy schemes will be in the greater 21st century combined with some of the more dire predictions of climate change being wrong due to non-linear counter hidden feedback loop dynamics.

It's the single factorization of climate change combined with the assuming the worse non accounting for non-linear dynamics that will prove a fair amount of their dire projections wrong.

Another major dynamic they have not factored into their politico-apocalyptic rhetoric is the resilience of ancient organic bio-mechanisms such as the exponential blooming of oxygen producing plankton and algae within stressed environments. The zealous corporatists have always treated nature as a paralyzed non-combatant and are always caught out by pandemics or catastrophies, and only now are they bending to a greener agenda. But yes brah, it continues in all its diverse and vain glory excess much to the amusement of the humble and eternal anarch awareness.

"non-linear counter hidden feedback loop dynamics"

care to explain that academic jargon for the less-educated among us?

Another educated poster here, it means conditions snowballing and thus feeding themselves and causing gigantic unpredictable results.

PS I was going to put " growing exponentially" but thought " snowballing" suited a limited vocabular. You sorta made it hard for me ;)

The spread of electric cars and crypto mining, combined with a lack of major increase in energy supply, could mean a potential cascading collapse, or at best an organically-forced rationalization. The case against these two trends (basically, that it's impossible to produce enough electric power to keep up with the current levels of car consumption, which is as supermassive as ever).

Crypto mining data centers are also very power-hungry, so especially in colder countries where power demands for heating are huge this means an economic stalemate, in combination with electric cars and the continuously increasing development of suburban sprawls. There's been a suggestion over the past decades of installing mini-nuke plants that are (supposedly) safer, yet as we all know, power is always more lucrative at large scales,and even nationalized power infrastructures are willing to adhere to this logic of mass control + mass profits. But anyways these "local nukes" are still liberal pipedreams.

There's a possibility that reckless, unchecked development will soon be its own enemy, causing a managerial and energetic clusterfuck that very few can really understand, and fewer can prevent against. This accelerationist view could be much agreeable if only this process wouldn't be making countless victims (mostly non-human lives) and destroying entire ecosystems, for ultimately doing itself a seppuku. As usual, the biggest concern I got with accelerationist is being the belief of that macho idiot riding his tuned car at twice the speed limit in a residential neighborhood at peak hour. He'll destroy many lives before smashing his machine on a wall. These lives are not at fault, but his life... likely.

Yup, the accelerationists with their bigger, faster etc mindset, and it falls into the fashion of culture, how the artiste as the crass aesthetic dictator enforcing a narcissistic dictatorship driven by a growth fanaticism in collective social values.
There seems to be somewhere in this race towards supremacy a machismo driven by an ancient instinctual urge, but may be wrong.

The male of the species strives to own faster and bigger possessions from the false belief that this pursuit has an analogous relationship and influence upon the performance of their penises, which are concealed beneath clothing and animal skins.

so I notice that in your story ... you don't like being interrupted while "critiquing" and you dislike people who are motivated to "save the world", you know, do stuff besides "critiquing"... that's boring and dumb.

THEN you imply that their annoying optimism is what will kill you, rather than ... you know, that whole end of the world thing.


What lol! People can interrupt away. The dominant strain of anarchism is full of this bullshit that can be found on IDG or the channel zero network. There’s very little critical thought happening. I’m not against doing things other than critique. In fact desert is all about doing things even if the world can’t be saved. I don’t actually know if the world is gonna end. It doesn’t really matter either way. I’m here to live anarchy and find others willing to do the same. I’m not here to Larp revolutionary and to create some prefigurative microstates based on Rojava or something.

yeah, sure. I guess.? people are full of shit everywhere I go and there's far worse than the handful of people who are even bothering to discuss what, if anything, they're trying to do about it but hey, it's your basketball to dunk on whoever or whatever strawman of a dumb leftist you like.


No u.

These two outlets are nowhere representative of the entirety of anarchists, you bitch-ass moralist. It's funny that you're taking a bunch of typical anarcho-leftists are use them as the common denominator for "anarchists" in general. Nice straw men! But also boring and pointless.

"dominant strain" doesn't equal "entirety of anarchists."

are you disagreeing that most anarchists are leftist and activist? if so then tell me where you live because i would like to visit.

perhaps the source of your confusion is that "leftist activists" (reminder that I think this is a lazy strawman, not a serious category) actually do things that other people tend to discuss, they end up in the media more and seem over represented because of that?

not even saying this is a good thing, just a possible reason for a confirmation bias.

imo, the reality is that "activists" are already a tiny minority, of which, "leftist anarchist activists" would be a tiny minority within a tiny minority. then I add in all the people who self identify as anarchists and it's STILL a piddly margin, even including every jackass ancap or egoist who has no idea what words even mean.

This podcast is straight up garbage. I disavow. -10 points for gryffindor.

subscribe to our patreon! we need loads of money to press record and talk to each other on zoom!

member when free radical radio put out a podcast and an actual radio broadcast without e-begging even once? i member!

I miss FRR :’(

Fuck these guys.

what’s wrong with crowdsourcing, you butthurt boomer? i bet you’re ok with anarchists busking with their banjos and half starved dogs in city street corners though aren’t you?

Because “crowdsourcing” is for fucking grifters who don’t have the heart and the belief in what they do to do it for free.

Sounds like you’re moralizing, bro. Who cares if it’s grifting or robbing or working 40 hours a week? Ice your butt.

The difference is that in one instance you’re coming up with the money yourself, which is fine, and on the other, you’re profiting off of your fellow anarchists and turning anarchy into a commodity and a grift.

You really need me to send you cash just so you can afford to press record and waffle on for two hours?

Fuck you.

Btw are we still up on this “anti-moralizing” trip? That’s soooo 2017.

Everybody moralizes, especially leftists. Stop the cap.

I like how people who are almost always pieces of shit, readily identify themselves by constantly using that phrase.
saves me a ton of time!

What phrase?

examples include "that's moralizing", "sounds like you're moralizing" and "because i lack self awareness and/or pretend my value system is above criticism, you must be moralizing BRO"

noooo you can’t crowdsource you must collect unemployment dole or work a real job to be a good anarchist!

noooo you must rob banks and crypto mine to be good anarchists!

noooo you must be born into wealth and renounce it except for a small monthly allowNce to be a good anarchist!!

you’re all fucking ridiculous.
who cares?

patreon isn't crowdsourcing. crowdsourcing is when you want to make something but can't afford to make it, so you ask people to pay for it first, then when it's made you send them whatever it is you wanted to make.

your podcast cost nothing to make. you're literally just trying to cash in at the expense of other anarchists.

oh look an expert!

what is time anyway? labor is only labor if you pick stuff up and set it down!

anyone can string words together!

it's impossible to ignore what other people are doing when it has no bearing on my life i must rage!

people are not allowed to create things and be supported by others who enjoy the thing because that is not bootstraps!!!

*flails wildly*


no one said anything about bootstraps. more strawmanning, as seems to be your default whenever you hear something you don't like.

anyway, glad the book got you so flustered. that was the point. maybe you'll think about what you've been doing all these years? or maybe you'll just carry on pretending you and your buddies are going to save the world like the avengers, making a wind-powered 'new world in the shell of the old' and realising heaven on earth for all god's children.

i wrote the book, idiot. you realise there are multiple people posting comments and none of them are likely these podcasters?

Why would someone pretend to be an author on an anonymous comments section?

You posted mid-afternoon on the first day of lockdown restrictions being lifted in the UK, which co-incided with the hottest day on record here. Obviously the author of Desert wasn't sat at their computer writing low effort posts on anews.

What would the author of Desert be doing on the hottest day on record that co-incided [sic] with the first day of lockdown restrictions being lifted if not writing comments on anews?

anarchybang also did a podcast and radio broadcast with live call-ins for fifty plus episodes without asking for money once

Idk if it made them objectively “good” but at least it didn’t make them objectively grifter leeches on the suffering of struggling anarchists.

Go busk with your doogle.

probably just made it a show put on by folks who could already make rent next month regardless of the show

as an old fart who doesn't have to hustle quite so hard anymore, it's only because of my previous schemes!

abang was good, yes. if they discussed a book then they'd at least all read it. not much to ask, is it?

lol something i do when i'm being asked for money and i don't have money is say no. people are allowed to ask, i'm allowed to say no.

this is what happens when two people who are addicted to smoking hopium through bookchin bongs see a desert meme, skim the first chapter on theanarchistlibrary.org then get together to talk about it

Why do the doomer and the bloomer keep saying Desert argues for doing nothing? The text clearly argues for protecting wilderness and wildness from the outset. Could it be, perhaps, that neither of them read it? Or are they just really bad at comprehension?

This reminds me of that time IGD got kicked off patreon and made a poast on @news to complain about it lmao good times...


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