2009.09.10 - Workshop 27

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    The following is a transcript of the workshop fro September 10th 2009.

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath and Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Pila :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dao, Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi everyone
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Scathach, Pila, Dao, Eliza
    Dao Yheng: hi all
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Ara, Almond :)
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone hiya stim!
    Almond Andel: Hello, all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Almond and arabella :)
    Almond Andel: I'm new here, could I sit in?
    Stim Morane: Hi Almond, arabella
    Stim Morane: Almond, you are welcome
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza, Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
    Stim Morane: hi Mick
    Almond Andel: thank you
    Mickorod Renard: hiya guys
    arabella Ella: hiya Mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
    Mickorod Renard: before you ask Stim,,I have not done much in the way of homework as rl is manic at the moment
    Stim Morane: I know the feeling
    Mickorod Renard: sorry
    Stim Morane: no problem
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: so is the manic nature of rl instructive?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe constructive
    Stim Morane: an interesting distinction
    Mickorod Renard: I have just moved house too,,last weekend,,and am still in boxes
    Stim Morane: I see
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :) congratulations Mick.
    Stim Morane: the last time I did that, I swore never again
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,its only temp I hope Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: but thanks
    Stim Morane: *start?
    Stim Morane: so ... shall we startL
    Mickorod Renard: please
    arabella Ella: yes please
    Stim Morane: I should note, once again, the submissions by Eliza, Scathach and Gaya ...
    Stim Morane: these are on our wiki: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Stim Morane: thank you very much for taking the trouble to reflect, compose, and post these
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you for giving me homework Stim :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, thank you. It is helpful to do so
    Stim Morane: it's nice of you to see it in a positive light
    Stim Morane: many people hate homework
    Gaya Ethaniel: It gives a bit of structure which is nice :)
    Stim Morane: so would anyone like to comment on the new wiki pieces?
    Dao Yheng: I didn't find a way to post --
    Stim Morane: Oh, sorry to hear that, Dao
    Dao Yheng: is there an instruction page?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can help you after Dao if you'd like :)
    Dao Yheng: thanks! that would be great!
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I think I put basic instructions there?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Stim Morane: Actually, if there's a simple answer, I would like to hear it now.
    Scathach Rhiadra: to posting?
    Stim Morane: yes, sorry
    Stim Morane: for instance, i assume registering is necessary?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, but you are already registeded Stim, and Dao
    Stim Morane: :)
    Dao Yheng: the instructions are probably there, I just missed it
    Stim Morane: that's good to know ... I'm losing track of these wikis, etc.
    Scathach Rhiadra: I can add you into the menu options giving a place for posting pages
    Stim Morane: OK, well we can find out about this later then ...
    Dao Yheng: k, thanks!
    Mickorod Renard: if I might just contribute something now?
    Stim Morane: sure, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,it was a slightly diferent observation I had
    Mickorod Renard: I felt like when I got angry I observed something odd
    Mickorod Renard: like as though my self was living in a peace,,like a community,,and then when angry that was fragmented
    Mickorod Renard: and termoil set in
    Mickorod Renard: I felt the harm it did to the structure of that inner community
    Mickorod Renard: ok done
    Stim Morane: thanks, very apt and interesting
    Dao Yheng: that sounds familiar to me, Mickorod
    Stim Morane: the same point applies very broadly, to all sorts of things we get caught up in ...
    Stim Morane: learning to notice the cost is very important
    Stim Morane: I see a similar insight in the pieces on the wiki ... it seems you are all "cluing in"
    Stim Morane: meditation training relies on your own capacity for noticing things and feeling what's conducive to harmony etc vs disarray
    Stim Morane: Eliza, in a similar vein, perhaps, you mention time delays in several different ways. Would you please say a bit more about this point, so I can be sure I know what is meant?
    Dao Yheng: maybe when I'm more at peace, I can include more of the environment as "me" but when I'm upset, everything literally goes to pieces
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Dao Yheng: I also liked Eliza's chutes and ladders!
    arabella Ella: for me it does not just go to pieces it clouds everything else and is very difficult to get out of
    Stim Morane: yes, this is important to note
    Stim Morane: there's no way out, apparently
    arabella Ella: it is a bit like being swept away by a torrent of emotion I cannot control
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll wait just say when.. and thanks Dao :)
    arabella Ella: apologies Eliza
    Stim Morane: when
    Stim Morane: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :) Okay...
    Eliza Madrigal: Lately I'm very much atune to an idea of integrating insight through more and more immediacy of experience...
    Mickorod Renard: being angry for me is in a niave way , a way at getting my own back on what upset me,,yet in reality its self harm
    Mickorod Renard: sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: So time delays are something I'm very sensitive to...
    Eliza Madrigal: a feeling of missing moments
    Eliza Madrigal: and seeing that in delays..the chain begins..
    Eliza Madrigal: or that is what it feels like to me.. and more as though I'm watching it
    Eliza Madrigal: so I can feel it doesn't have to be that way
    Eliza Madrigal: (end)
    Stim Morane: so time delays = missed moments?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe sometims moment to let go, too
    Stim Morane: and missed moments are ones that passed without being fully taken in, fully noticed?
    Mickorod Renard: Eliza's sounds like what I have experienced during stress
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...which I was distanced from
    Stim Morane: I see. THanks
    Stim Morane: I think we're converging on the basis for the ethics stuff I introduced some time ago ...
    Stim Morane: :0
    Stim Morane: there's always a "time delay" involved in these matters
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: and Gaya, that wise thief ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P yes that one ...
    Stim Morane: can you introduce us to her?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The critical voice ... always telling me I'm not doing it right or should know better.
    Stim Morane: oh, I see. HER.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've decided to become more friendly ... determined to become a good friend to her and appreciate her more.
    Stim Morane: Excellent.
    Stim Morane: You might as well.
    Stim Morane: You'll be seeing her for a long time
    Gaya Ethaniel: And be also ... a bit firm when she gets out of control ...
    Stim Morane: yes, that's the OTHER important point.
    Stim Morane: both are needed
    Gaya Ethaniel: I suspect ... they never leave ... is that the case Stim?
    Stim Morane: yes, it's true
    Eliza Madrigal: That doesn't show up for me unless I miss a moment... THEN here comes the judge
    Stim Morane: as your practice and insight grow, it could be said that a new sense of presence, higher time, mind etc become seen ... and there is no thief/critic there. But one's ordinary sense of self is always codependent with the thief
    Stim Morane: it's not a problem, as long as you do what you're mentioning
    Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't take on a 'role' under the criticism which probably is an improvement I'm guessing.
    Stim Morane: definitely
    Stim Morane: this bears on the after-effects Scathach mentions
    Stim Morane: we get sent off on long tangents if we don't see what she's talking about in her wiki piece
    Stim Morane: much better for things to be completed instantly, rather than leading on to one thing after another
    Stim Morane: so this all seems very relevant
    Stim Morane: To push a bit, let me ask you all a question.
    Stim Morane: If you had to explain the basic point of codependent arising to some friend, what would you say?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Dao Yheng: ha ha
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    arabella Ella: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: :) That nothing exists or functions independently...everything is made of components
    Mickorod Renard: eeek
    Stim Morane: uh huh ...
    Stim Morane: anything else?
    Stim Morane: there's no right answer, I'm just asking ...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: and the components are all inter linked
    Stim Morane: yep
    Mickorod Renard: there is always a stimulus?
    Eliza Madrigal: including one's self
    arabella Ella: nothing is isolated
    Stim Morane: uh huh
    Eliza Madrigal: so called
    Stim Morane: so called?
    Stim Morane: on, the self
    Stim Morane: *oh
    Stim Morane: I see
    Stim Morane: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will probably start with a relevant example to that particular friend, a particular self I see in her/him.
    Gaya Ethaniel: If s/he can't see it ... it would be difficult to explain.
    Stim Morane: sounds good. I like that approach, obviously
    arabella Ella: sounds great Gaya
    Stim Morane: and just as obviously, I like the example of anger
    Stim Morane: but others may be better for some people
    Stim Morane: anyway, fine answers
    Stim Morane: are you still typing, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: no
    Dao Yheng: I spent a lot of a sit a couple mornings ago thinking "what was that co-dependent arising thing again?" The answer I could come up with at the time was along the lines of no effort, allowing
    Mickorod Renard: nervous twitch
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will have to do what you just said Stim tomorrow night :( I'm meeting a friend who's been suffering a lot with anger ... want to help her.
    Stim Morane: yes, Dao ... that has to figure somehow.
    Stim Morane: good luck, Gaya,
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've seen through shyness in this way... always thought it was genetic and maybe it is but this has helped
    arabella Ella: my focus on anger made me see that anger and frustration can often be interlinked
    Stim Morane: yes, that's likely arabella
    Stim Morane: we feel thwarted somehow, then get angry, etc etc
    arabella Ella: also ... frustration at the waste of energy as a result of the anger
    Stim Morane: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. Not getting 'my' way ...
    arabella Ella: and lack of possibility of moving ahead
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: exactly
    arabella Ella nods
    Stim Morane: in this country it manifests as road rage
    Pila Mulligan: anger, frustration and expectatins are interlinked
    arabella Ella: :)
    Stim Morane: appropos of your comment, Dao, Pila wrote a very interesting email to the PaB group re wu wei ...
    Stim Morane: Pila, would you be willing to summarize the gist of that?
    Mickorod Renard: the frustration of not having a positive outcome,,begats anger which compounds the negative
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pila Mulligan: actually, the email was only sent to you and Pema, Stim
    arabella Ella: :)
    Stim Morane: sorry to put you on the spot, Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: yes just went looking... haha
    Stim Morane: I just liked your comments
    Stim Morane: oh, ok
    Pila Mulligan: in relation to your 'Fruits not Roots' dialogue on wu wei
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Stim Morane: I'm just noting the connection w Dao's comment
    Pila Mulligan: my SL connection isverry laggy at the moment, maybe later, please
    Stim Morane: the points you raised about yin and yang as lead-ins to wu-wei raise some difficult issues for my little chat here on codependent arising
    Pila Mulligan: how so?
    Stim Morane: I've basically been saying we don't appreciate things well at all, don't really live very fully and directly
    Stim Morane: and that codependent arising can help up break through the ice, the frozen structures of habitual framings
    Stim Morane: right?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Stim Morane: ok ... but in fact, the very training in seeing everything as codependently given can itself cause problems along the same lines
    arabella Ella: problems? why?
    Dao Yheng: the hard thing for me about habitual framings is that sometimes it's ALL framings and so I get stuck on trying to overthrow a framing with another framing
    Stim Morane: it can turn everything into codependently arising posits.
    Stim Morane: yes, Dao, that's part of my point exactly
    arabella Ella: ah
    Stim Morane: the teaching can become a trap
    Pila Mulligan: isn't this an exercise in seeing the interactions of yin and yang at the suprapersonal level then
    Stim Morane: and if we fall into that, we don't get a chance to appreciate, for instance, yin and yang
    Stim Morane: insight needs to go pretty far to be free of its own side effects
    Stim Morane: there is a potential problem here
    Stim Morane: just to take your example, Pila, I think many great Indian masters may not have seen yin and yang at all well ...
    Stim Morane: too much emphasis on "emptiness" can be a sickness
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Stim Morane: am I making sense?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Stim Morane: we have to be a bit careful here
    arabella Ella nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not entirely sure Stim.
    Eliza Madrigal: Aren't there 'safeties' built into insight? Meaning... progression depends on comprehension/sight along the way?
    Stim Morane: this is one of the reasons why I trained in other traditions than just buddhism ... the chinese indigenous views are also important
    Pila Mulligan: Indian duality (shiva-shakti, atman-brahmin) seems less cosmicly profiund than yin-yang
    Gaya Ethaniel: If we are being inclusive of all, incl all that arises then would I encounter the problem you mentioned?
    Stim Morane: Gaya, insight can break thru the things that disconnect us from being alive
    Stim Morane: but it can also be itself a kind of disconnect
    Scathach Rhiadra: is it the danger of nihinism you mean?
    Stim Morane: we can be so 'insightful' we miss being alive/present
    Pila Mulligan: doctrine as crutch?
    Scathach Rhiadra: nihilism*
    Gaya Ethaniel: So seeing is also doing hence not wu-wei?
    Stim Morane: it may be nihilism, or it may just be a disconnect
    Stim Morane: seeing needs, eventually, to be life, being ... not seeing something *about* life and being.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But ... one needs to see a bit before one can 'be'?
    Eliza Madrigal: sure...yes the being present would be the immedicacy ... connecting
    Stim Morane: yes, we have to plunge in
    Stim Morane: yes, Eliza
    arabella Ella: are you implying Stim in simple terms that there are always two sides to a coin ...
    Stim Morane: until complete awakeness, yes
    Stim Morane: so we just muddle along as best we can ...
    arabella Ella: and we must be cautious of not coming out only on one side but appreciating both sides pleasant or not?
    Stim Morane: yes, the seeing itself can be a problem
    arabella Ella: yes
    Stim Morane: real seeing = "seeing nothing" or "seeing just what's present" or "Hi, how are you today!"
    Stim Morane: we're just working towards that
    Stim Morane: natualness
    Stim Morane: naturalness
    Stim Morane: hence my interest in Pila's point about wu wei and yin and yang
    Stim Morane: natural
    arabella Ella: :)
    Stim Morane: winding down a bit, shall we try a couple more weeks using text, then seriously decide about using voice?
    Dao Yheng: When you get a chance, Pila ... :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Scathach Rhiadra: ok,
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Pila Mulligan: from letter -- Wu wei suggests a modest relationship with natural change, an enduring presence in the natural state of things, rather than continuous effort to influence things
    Stim Morane: it's a group decision, not one I should make
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... i hope the group dont mind this but i think most of us are now accustomed to using voice
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will create a googlegroup for WoK - Pila would you forward the email to the group?
    Pila Mulligan: laggy, hence bad timeing there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't mind... was ready to use voice this week if that was the plan
    Dao Yheng: yes, thank you Pila!
    arabella Ella: i was ready to use voice today too :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I need some wu wei rather than being conditioned to influence everything
    Stim Morane: good, arabella. But I still want the group to decide ... I'm already on record as preferring voice over text, while admitting the latter's advantages
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: me too, Mick
    arabella Ella: :)
    Dao Yheng: I don't mind voice, but just realized that I'll continue to participate via text -- don't have enough time to get home before these sessions start so am doing this from work or a cafe
    Stim Morane: that should be fine, Dao
    Stim Morane: right, arabella?
    arabella Ella: me?
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: i am sure it will
    Stim Morane: or anyone familiar with skype
    Stim Morane: ok, good
    Mickorod Renard: yes me..now
    Stim Morane: any questions you have about the topic of codependent arising and its application to life should be articulated and stated, so I can try to address them.
    Stim Morane: this is the homework
    arabella Ella: my question would be Stim
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,so the other bit thats dependant is the situation?
    Stim Morane: I'm the question?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    arabella Ella: what do we do with the unpleasant feeling of for example anger and the manner in which it engulfs us and overtakes other priorities?
    Stim Morane: ok
    arabella Ella: :)
    Stim Morane: I look forward to lots of othe such questions next time, so I can try to tidy up a bit.
    Eliza Madrigal: What about wu-wei questions, since that came up? :)
    arabella Ella: (only asked as you said we need to verbalise our questions)
    Stim Morane: *other
    Stim Morane: sure, wu-wei too ... as long as I don't have to explain how you develop it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay :)
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to avoid that.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I read that
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry ... it's not a laughing matter ...
    Mickorod Renard: what is anger?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim
    Stim Morane: thanks, everyone. See you next time.
    Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim. Enjoy your day :)
    arabella Ella: thanks Stim!
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Stim Morane: bye!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye stim
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim, thank you:)
    Almond Andel: Thank you
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Dao Yheng: thanks everyone ! bye!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good nihgt/day everyone
    Stim Morane: you can party now ...
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh Stim, you ok to be added to googlegroup?
    Pila Mulligan must be going
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone, thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: he's gone :(
    Eliza Madrigal has a cold and is heading back to bed :)
    arabella Ella: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye everyone :)

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