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[16:26:26] <psa> guus / dwd / Zash: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#maintain
[16:28:07] <Zash> :)
[16:30:05] <guus> seriously, I'm suggesting to change one number :)
[16:30:11] <guus> you want a patch?
[16:30:51] <Zash> #!sh sed -i s/4/5/
[16:32:56] <Minos> #!sed -f s/4/5/
[16:34:04] <Zash> .
[16:34:12] <Minos> .
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[16:38:35] <psa> guus: what needs changing?
[16:39:04] <psa> guus: I'm happy to accept bug reports in this chatroom :)
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[16:40:03] <Zash> psa: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-December/025467.html
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[16:40:51] <guus> psa: Regarding http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html: In example 13, shouldn't the value of the 'index' attribute be 371 rather than 10?
[16:40:53] <psa> Zash: thanks
[16:41:06] <psa> oh yeah I saw that email fly by, will fix
[16:42:18] <guus> thanks
[16:42:38] <psa> I might the IQ id values too, because they might be confusing
[16:43:19] <Zash> Just be careful so you don't accidentally the entire thing :)
[16:43:50] <stpeter> :)
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[16:44:39] <stpeter> that's what I get for editing my messages too much before sending :)
[16:45:27] <Zash> XEP 308
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[20:33:07] <Coyo> /me waves
[20:33:47] <psa> hi Coyo!
[20:33:51] <Coyo> hai psa!
[20:33:58] <Coyo> /me grins excitedly
[20:34:04] <psa> heh
[20:34:07] <Coyo> xmpp is so awesome!
[20:34:11] <Tobias> indeed
[20:34:30] <Coyo> so yeah, i was directed here by someone on the jingle@xmpp.org mailing list.
[20:34:32] <psa> Coyo: you are working on a Jingle implementation?
[20:34:38] <Coyo> i soon will be
[20:34:42] <psa> ok
[20:34:44] <Coyo> as soon as i finish learning ruby.
[20:35:33] <psa> Coyo: if you are located in Europe, you might want to attend FOSDEM 2012 (Brussels, early February) because we will have some interop testing and hackfests and so on
[20:35:45] <Coyo> i'm sure libraries exist for jabber in ruby, but i would like a client that supports features i dont really see in other clients.
[20:35:52] <Coyo> i live in Dallas, Texas, United States
[20:35:59] <psa> Coyo: aha, ok
[20:36:31] <psa> we should have another mini-conference next summer in Portland, Oregon (OSCON 2012)
[20:36:48] <psa> Coyo: I happen to be located in Denver
[20:37:00] <Coyo> denver? mmkay.
[20:37:59] <psa> Denver, Colorado, that is -- not Denver, Pennsylvania or any of the other Denvers
[20:38:11] <Coyo> ah!
[20:38:17] <Coyo> so you're only a state away
[20:38:24] <psa> well, two :)
[20:38:30] <psa> there's Oklahoma in between
[20:38:52] <psa> (depends on how you define "away")
[20:39:13] <Coyo> hmm. i passed briefly through new mexico to get to colorado on my way to utah (late grandfather lived there)
[20:39:33] <Coyo> colorado was really beautiful.
[20:39:49] <psa> yes, you can get to Colorado via NM, too
[20:40:01] <psa> I've never been to Dallas
[20:40:14] <psa> I need to take a road trip down that way sometime
[20:40:28] <Coyo> so yeah. i've been working slowly on learning ruby. i'm not exactly coder material, so it's been slow going, but i REALLY want to learn it, so i'm slogging through it.
[20:40:45] <Coyo> i would definitely welcome you to dallas. there's lots of stuff to see and do, here.
[20:42:34] <psa> yeah, I know a few folks down that way
[20:42:56] <psa> one of the very early XMPP contributors lives there
[20:44:10] <Link Mauve> Coyo, could you turn off your blue color? It’s not readable on a black screen.
[20:45:06] <MattJ> My favourite state is still UK
[20:45:25] <psa> MattJ: is that the 51st?
[20:45:41] <Coyo> oh, sorry.
[20:46:06] <Zash_> Death to color!
[20:46:19] <Zash_> For a monochrome dawn!
[20:47:19] <Coyo> testing.
[20:47:36] <Link Mauve> Great. :)
[20:47:38] <MattJ> Much easier on the eyes, thanks :)
[20:47:49] <Coyo> no problem.
[20:47:58] <Coyo> so, how are ya guys? feeling okay?
[20:49:15] <psa> heh
[20:49:45] <psa> not feeling too stressed right now -- it seems that the email flood is slowing down with the end-of-year holidays approaching
[20:50:28] <Coyo> that's good, psa
[20:50:58] <psa> /me goes back to reviewing http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-link-format-09
[20:52:11] <Coyo> i'm feeling okay. not depressed or anything. kindof excited about meeting the xmpp developers.
[20:53:19] <Coyo> "constrained restful environments"? interesting. o.o
[20:53:48] <psa> Coyo: yes, CORE is one of my working groups at the IETF
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[20:56:56] <psa> Coyo: why did you choose Ruby? are you using any of the existing Ruby libraries?
[21:05:28] <Coyo> probably will.
[21:05:44] <Coyo> chose ruby because it seemed easier to learn than python.
[21:06:09] <psa> ok
[21:06:32] <psa> there are some (older) Ruby libraries for XMPP, but I don't know if they are actively maintained
[21:06:42] <psa> see http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/libraries/
[21:10:42] <Coyo> hmm.
[21:14:02] <Coyo> looks like some of the projects listed on that page are no longer maintained.
[21:14:42] <Coyo> xmpp4r seems to be maintained, still, i dont know about actively, though.
[21:15:10] <psa> Coyo: likely some of them are not maintained -- we might want to add a "status" column to the list
[21:17:46] <Coyo> probably a very good idea.
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[21:20:32] <mathieui> I don’t get the "id" attribute of the <si/> element in 0095
[21:21:02] <mathieui> The XEP says that « This value is generated by the Sender, and the same value MUST be used throughout a session when talking to the Receiver. » but I don’t see it used elsewhere than in the first <iq type="set"/> of the stream initiation
[21:22:12] <psa> good point
[21:22:18] <mathieui> is it to track multiple negociations of the same file, e.g. with different stream-methods available?
[21:22:23] <psa> another reason to migrate to http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html :)
[21:22:43] <psa> mathieui: I think it was just an oversight in writing XEP-0095
[21:23:09] <mathieui> Ok :)
[21:23:12] <psa> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0096.html has slightly better examples (but not a lot of them)
[21:24:50] <Coyo> i have a question: is there a xep for ad-hoc vpn over xmpp/jingle?
[21:24:57] <Coyo> i cant seem to find one.
[21:25:29] <psa> Coyo: as I said on the jingle@xmpp.org list, no one has volunteered to write a spec for that (yet)
[21:26:01] <Zash_> I want a generic tunneling XEP :)
[21:28:04] <Coyo> that would be cool.
[21:28:24] <Coyo> psa: i might just do that, once i learn more about xmpp (there is so much to know)
[21:29:22] <psa> Coyo: yes, there's always a lot to learn!
[21:30:03] <Coyo> i'm so excited!
[21:30:24] <Coyo> http://www.amazon.com/XMPP-The-Definitive-Guide-ebook/dp/B002OFAY50/ is this a good book?
[21:30:47] <Coyo> -recognises that name!-
[21:30:52] <Coyo> o:
[21:31:01] <psa> you bet it is! ;-)
[21:31:16] <Coyo> /me is awed a little..
[21:31:19] <psa> full disclosure: I'm one of the authors :)
[21:31:27] <Coyo> i gathered that >//>
[21:31:41] <mathieui> Might as well take the paperback, it’s about the same price, though
[21:32:24] <Coyo> you'd recommend the paperback? okay :D
[21:33:33] <mathieui> Well, I have it the paperback, and I usually favor « real » books over ebooks when it commes to computer science
[21:33:36] <mathieui> -m
[21:33:42] <mathieui> -it
[21:34:27] <psa> mathieui: me, too
[21:34:37] <Coyo> i have limited shelf space, since i dont really have the room for a full library, but i might just make an exception for this one ;3
[21:34:59] <psa> ebooks are good for novels and such, but not for technical books, finance books, etc. (IMHO)
[21:36:38] <Coyo> okay. looking through the book via Amazon's Look Inside!
[21:43:26] <psa> have fun1
[21:43:43] <psa> but you can just read the specs to get a pretty good idea of how things work ;-)
[21:47:45] <Coyo> question: if i come up with a smart multicast extension, that allows extended servers to route the media channel in a packetized form, and really work hard on it, would it be considered by the xsf?
[21:48:20] <Coyo> xmpp/jingle would be used as the control channel in this concept diagram of mine..
[21:48:54] <psa> could you describe your idea a bit more?
[21:49:10] <psa> multicast of the signalling traffic or something else?
[21:49:27] <Coyo> sure. i have a diagram on my lap, but basically, when you connect to a MUC voip conference..
[21:49:32] <psa> and what do you mean by having servers route the media chanel in a packetized form?
[21:49:41] <Coyo> the media channel is negotiated, right? via jingle.
[21:49:56] <psa> yes
[21:50:19] <Coyo> but sending a copy to every person individually is really ineffecient, right? so why not have the servers route the media streams in a multicast tree?
[21:50:23] <psa> we use XMPP to negotiate the media channel = Jingle
[21:50:53] <psa> Coyo: "the servers" = XMPP servers? they're not designed to route anything except snippets of XML
[21:50:57] <Coyo> yes, jingle is really awesome. i have a personal interest in it.
[21:51:13] <Coyo> oh? then maybe i'm thinking of a special server that sits on the same machine?
[21:51:24] <psa> we wouldn't want to packetize the media into XML and send that in-band :)
[21:51:31] <Coyo> well, of course.
[21:51:39] <psa> ok, just checking :)
[21:51:39] <Coyo> this is why we're sending it out of band, after all.
[21:52:02] <Coyo> i might be ignorant, but i'm not stupid ;3
[21:52:13] <psa> right, we'd typically use an off-path media relay or mixer of some kind
[21:52:26] <psa> opinions differ about what is more efficient in some of the scenarios
[21:52:35] <psa> folks on the Jingle list have discussed it before
[21:52:40] <Zash_> peercasting?
[21:52:44] <Coyo> i am a big fan of application-layer (layer 7) multicast trees.
[21:54:38] <Coyo> so maybe we could open a port, 5299, for encrypted rtp streams, but with an extension that allows multicast contexts to be routed. i think that this would be a technically efficient approach, rather than sending a copy to every recipient, as that doesnt scale very well.
[21:55:22] <Coyo> maybe a seperate server, specifically for this job, could be bound to port 5299?
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[21:55:40] <Coyo> um.. hm, let me diagram this..
[21:58:42] <psa> Coyo: I'm sure that someone has already worked this out :)
[21:59:05] <psa> e.g., for things like SIP conferences
[21:59:10] <psa> cf. STUN and TURN
[22:00:16] <Coyo> hmm.
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[22:01:05] <psa> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766
[22:01:20] <Coyo> excuse me, sorry to ask a newb question, but, are MUC/chatroom conference servers connected to by one's xmpp server, or directly by the client? i'm led to believe that one's client directly connects to the MUC server, but, i need this confirmed quickly.
[22:01:54] <psa> usually, the chat service connects to the server as a component
[22:02:02] <psa> so client => server => component
[22:02:06] <psa> not a direct connection
[22:02:17] <psa> i.e., not client => component
[22:02:29] <Coyo> okay. thank you VERY much
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[22:02:47] <Coyo> sleep well, asterix
[22:04:32] <Zash> Unless you count out-of-band stuff like Jingle, everything goes through your server.
[22:07:31] <Coyo> threw this together
[22:07:35] <Coyo> sorry it's so rough. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4975626/multicast-media-channel-routing-for-xmpp.png
[22:07:58] <Coyo> drew that using Dia
[22:10:57] <Coyo> zash: okay. so except for out of band stuff, everything, including muc and service disco goes through one's server. got it.
[22:11:31] <psa> Coyo: you probably want to read http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0278.html
[22:11:37] <Coyo> psa: okay.
[22:12:43] <Coyo> oooooh.
[22:13:21] <Coyo> so the vast majority of my work is already done. all i have to do is write a multicast spec on top of relay nodes for jingle. this is really awesome.
[22:13:46] <Zash> COIN relevant?
[22:13:52] <Zash> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0298.html
[22:14:24] <psa> Zash: yeah we haven't settled on an approach to multi-user Jingle yet -- COIN, Mingle, etc.
[22:14:29] <Florob> I think COIN is not multicast in a way
[22:14:37] <psa> and Google has whatever they use for Hangouts
[22:15:42] <Coyo> ooooooh, coin is neat, but not really multicast. it just provides call information from a peer-hosted conference call.
[22:15:56] <Coyo> which, granted, is very important.
[22:17:09] <Coyo> but i was thinking more along the lines of every outgoing media stream /within a call/ being multicast in a tree out to each participant using relay nodes a la the previous xep spec, only smartly, so that it fans out effeciently.
[22:18:28] <Coyo> since the relay nodes already exist, i suppose that this could be a purely client-mediated thing, or i could code a special relay node server, specifically for publishing itself as a candidate.. but the idea is to create a multicast tree for /every/ stream. and that this would be generated ad-hoc.
[22:23:26] <Coyo> hmm. it looks like jingle could easily be extended to bootstrap out-of-band p2p communications using other protocols. even p2p xmpp (like the kind used for zeroconf lan communications, which i believe is called bonjour)
[22:24:11] <Zash> You know what I'd like?
[22:24:38] <Coyo> zash: what? :3
[22:25:15] <Zash> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0247.html
[22:26:41] <Zash> With TLS, possibly using OpenPGP for keys/certs
[22:27:18] <Zash> Also http://tools.ietf.org/wg/p2psip/
[22:27:26] <Zash> if you like p2p stuff
[22:27:49] <Zash> (I think that XMPP already is p2p, if you only count the servers)
[22:27:52] <Coyo> that is cool.
[22:28:33] <Coyo> well, the servers are intentionally pretty simple. xmpp servers generally are not intended to perform ICE and hole punching.
[22:29:11] <psa> correct
[22:32:23] <Coyo> however, xmpp servers are perfect for acting as bootstrap servers. in the sense of being fast, easily reachable servers to communicate jingle information with peers, and in order to initiate and negotiate more complciated p2p communications. i really like hybrid systems, as opposed to pure p2p.
[22:32:52] <Coyo> i'd say i'm a fan of hybrid distributed (which xmpp is) and p2p (which jingle has the potential to enabled) systems.
[22:33:28] <Zash> yes, that has great potential
[22:35:09] <Coyo> reading the p2psip status pages. looks really interesting.
[22:37:39] <Coyo> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-p2psip-concepts-04#section-3 specifically reading this.
[22:38:22] <psa> Coyo: there are so many interesting things in this world -- the problem is finding something to focus on :)
[22:38:33] <Coyo> psa: this is true,
[22:38:41] <Coyo> i want to focus on xmpp ;3
[22:39:16] <Coyo> or rather, i want to focus on realtime communications, especially distributed social networking, possibly over xmpp using jingle.
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[22:39:31] <psa> Coyo: even in XMPP there is a lot you could do -- clients, servers, libraries, components -- core routing, multimedia, social networking, etc.
[22:39:36] <psa> sigh
[22:39:59] <Coyo> social networking over xmpp.
[22:40:05] <psa> sure, why not?
[22:40:11] <Zash> That exists already :)
[22:40:13] <Coyo> not excited about it?
[22:40:15] <psa> the BuddyCloud people do that (and others)
[22:40:29] <Coyo> do they do it in-band, or out-of-band?
[22:40:33] <Zash> PEP
[22:40:40] <Florob> It needs more PEP.
[22:40:57] <Zash> Or well, Jappix does Atom in PEP, BuddyCloud does some PubSub stuff iirc
[22:41:04] <Zash> Florob +1
[22:41:11] <psa> /me starts to realize that XMPP has just as many inscrutable acronyms as every other project under the sun
[22:41:11] <Zash> Mooaar!
[22:41:32] <mathieui> Less PEP, more pubsub!
[22:41:44] <Florob> Buddycloud does Pubsub. Also they are dead set on putting topic and user channels on the same domain. Otherwise it's quite awesome I guess
[22:42:48] <Coyo> https://buddycloud.org/wiki/Developer_overview
[22:43:03] <Zash> psa, at least we don't make up terms for the same thing like DHTML, Web2.0, AJAX, HTML5 every 5 years :)
[22:43:11] <Coyo> hehe
[22:43:24] <psa> :)
[22:44:37] <Coyo> what is PEP?
[22:44:55] <Zash> Personal Eventing Protocol
[22:45:00] <Zash> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html
[22:45:01] <mathieui> Zash, wait for jingle 2.0
[22:45:01] <Coyo> oh?
[22:45:04] <Coyo> thanks.
[22:45:29] <Zash> Sortof simplifed PubSub that's useful for extended presence and stuff
[22:45:53] <Zash> Like this for example: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0118.html
[22:46:16] <Coyo> oh, cool.
[22:46:28] <Coyo> so basically, it's a more effecient and advanced presence?
[22:46:30] <Zash> mathieui: iJingleSocialX+!
[22:46:44] <Coyo> XD
[22:46:57] <Zash> mathieui, in the Cloud!!!
[22:46:57] <mathieui> That sounds so cool
[22:49:58] <Coyo> http://about.psyc.eu/XMPP <-- despite what my friend lynx thinks, xmpp is here to stay, warts and all, and the best he can hope for is gatewaying into the wider xmpp federation, and perhaps having clients use jingle to negotiate p2p stuff.
[22:50:31] <Coyo> the guy who wrote most of that is named SymLynx, he's the guy who invented the irc ctcp action, iirc.
[22:50:59] <Coyo> but yeah!
[22:51:15] <Coyo> a p2p social networking extension to xmpp sounds so cool!
[22:51:29] <psa> Coyo: don't believe everything you read on that website, it contains known errors
[22:51:55] * Florob left the chat.
[22:51:57] * Florob joined the chat.
[22:52:23] <Coyo> oh? uh oh. i have been misinformed. okay, would you like me to ask symlynx if i can get you a wiki account? that way you can clean it up.
[22:52:24] <Zash> Trolololololoooo :)
[22:52:29] <Coyo> hehe.
[22:52:52] <Zash> Or is it just based on out of date info?
[22:53:08] <Coyo> maybe it's out of date. lynx hasnt really been keeping up with xmpp.
[22:53:16] <Coyo> he's kindof a graybeard.
[22:53:16] <psa> Coyo: I'm too busy to clean up their messes
[22:53:28] <Coyo> psa: fair enough.
[22:53:28] <psa> Coyo: but perhaps in April I'll have time
[22:53:40] <Coyo> could you at least tell me what is wrong, so /i/ can clean it up?
[22:53:50] <psa> Coyo: that would take time, too
[22:54:02] <Coyo> april, it is.
[22:54:05] <Coyo> it's a date :D
[22:54:13] <psa> it might take more time to explain it all than just to fix it
[22:56:47] <Coyo> okay, fair enough.
[22:56:59] <Coyo> though i should note i'm a very fast learner, and i'm not afraid to RTFM
[22:57:37] <Zash> Read all the RFCs! :D
[22:57:53] <Zash> and XEPs
[22:58:01] <mathieui> Easy :D
[22:58:14] <Coyo> oh gawds.
[22:58:22] <Coyo> this is going to take awhile
[22:58:32] <Coyo> /me finally returns 12 years later >.>
[22:59:03] <psa> :)
[22:59:18] <Coyo> well, i've been at least reading the introduction and "how it works" parts of the xeps you guys have been kind enough to link me to :D
[22:59:23] <psa> brb
[22:59:28] <Coyo> and it's definitely caught my attention.
[23:00:33] <Coyo> psa: if you want to discuss xmpp support with lynx, he can always be found at xmpp:*welcome@psyced.org
[23:01:26] <Coyo> so yeah. p2p conferencing over jingle. this is going to be fun!
[23:06:19] <Coyo> psa: he says stpeter already has an account on the wiki, and that he's already asked psa/stpeter to correct them on various inaccuracies. but you're very busy, and i told him that. either way, this should be exciting! i really like psyc, but it's development is so painfully slow. and i'm eager to go ahead and get secure video conferencing already. xmpp is closest to this.
[23:07:08] <Coyo> secure video conferencing that isnt a pain in the neck to setup. muji will provide this very soon, i think. we're right on the cusp.
[23:11:44] * Florob left the chat.
[23:12:14] <Coyo> /me spots harrykar :D
[23:16:46] * naw left the chat.
[23:18:30] <psa> Coyo: yes, psa = stpeter (different accounts)
[23:18:43] <Coyo> psa: -nods-
[23:20:03] <Coyo> but yeah, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview-02 <-- this has me excited. not the javascript stuff, but the codecs and session negotiation stuff :D
[23:23:31] <Zash> um, rtcweb related to webrtc?
[23:24:20] <Coyo> yeah. webrtc. it defines, among other things..
[23:24:52] <Coyo> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-01#section-5.1 rtc/rtcp multiplexing :D
[23:25:16] <Coyo> we were just discussing that in the mailing list.
[23:29:30] <psa> Zash: same diff
[23:31:40] * stpeter left the chat.
[23:42:07] <Coyo> :3
[23:48:42] <psa> /me moves on to reviewing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-simple-msrp-cema/
[23:56:11] <Coyo> do we have an equivalent technology in jingle? -looks-
[23:58:24] <psa> oh gosh no
[23:58:50] <psa> you don't want or need to start reading about MSRP
[23:58:56] <Coyo> okay.
[23:59:11] <psa> Coyo: I'm reviewing these documents because I must :)
[23:59:30] <Coyo> oh. how unfortunate.
[23:59:55] <psa> Coyo: it's part of my job right now
[00:00:26] <psa> and it's not unfortunate to get paid :)
[00:00:42] <Coyo> i see.
[00:00:42] <Coyo> this be true.
[00:00:42] <psa> hmph, lag
[00:01:18] <Coyo> so you work for a sip provider?
[00:01:18] <Coyo> yeah. lag.
[00:02:18] <Zash> .
[00:02:18] <Zash> indeed. *poke Kev*
[00:02:54] <psa> Coyo: no, I'm currently serving on the IESG <http://www.ietf.org/iesg/> so I need to review all documents that are about to be approved as RFCs
[00:02:57] * Zash left the chat.
[00:03:16] <Coyo> O:
[00:03:39] <psa> weird, a grep process was consuming lots of CPU on the server machine
[00:04:12] <psa> the xmpp processes aren't taking up huge amounts of CPU or memory
[00:05:01] <Coyo> that's rather impressive, that you're on the standards team.
[00:05:25] <psa> Coyo: only for 2 years -- my term is over at the end of March
[00:05:37] <Coyo> oh, okay.