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[–]mungoflago[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (1 child)

/u/S_K_I, thank you for your contribution. However, your submission was removed for the following reasons:

No infographics or other unautomated diagrams. Infographic vs. Visualization.

Please review the sidebar. This post would be more appropriate in /r/Infographics.

This post has been removed.


[–]S_K_I[S] 288 points289 points  (76 children)

I'm paraphrasing executive director, Rick Doblin, who heads MAPS. These bullet points were taken from his Joe Rogan podcast interview:

• Therapy involves both a male and female attendant, for 8 hour sessions, and 30 days.

The process involves:


-While under MDMA, patient communicates with imagery (more free form)

-Patients unconscious is the guide

• They're responding to the emerging material catalyzed by the relationship, the setting, and the drug. Therapist then support this emergence

• Symbolic language of telling their own story, which reorders neural networks. Also de-emphasizes fear centers of the amygdala and changes how memory is stored

• Fear has never been fully processed because of the trauma

• Processing becomes easier, so does the recollection of the fear origin itself.

• Individuals have shown to be more limber, stretching is better (indicating possible use with athletes in the future studies?)

• Study on two family members at the same time will be in the next phase of trials, focusing primarily on one individual who is positive for PTSD while the other is not. They then see how they communicate with one another.

• Cases of MDMA related deaths: Hypothermia→effects the temperature controls. But in therapy, settings, there are no issues.

From here I'll unpack some of the bullet points which are of particular interest, but basically what MDMA is doing is allowing the individual to process the trauma without triggering the fear and pain involved in that event. Not only that, because the fear is no longer an issue for the individual they are also able to remember the event even clearer, something about how the brain naturally tries to protect itself by rewiring the bad memory to something else, which explains why certain memories of childhood trauma are replaced with something else or they're forgotten altogether.

This is fascinating to me because it strongly indicates that MDMA is removing those defense mechanisms (or barriers) which is common with a lot of individuals with PTSD, thereby allowing them to confront the fear itself head on without the ego getting in the way, and they do this all by themselves most. All the therapists are doing is simply following the lead of the patient and letting the unconscious part of the patients mind to do the work for them. What's funny, one of the test subjects quit after the first session because he said he was cured and no longer needed another session, shocking the therapists. They still continued to follow up with him daily to make sure he was doing well, but so far he remains adamant that he's fine. I found this very interesting.

This pretty much sums up everything I can remember by memory, but I highly suggest you guys listen to it, but I highly suggest listening to the Duncan Trussell interview with Rick Doblin because Duncan conducts a more serious interview and Rick goes into more detail it is fucking brilliant to hear how far MDMA therapy has come, and I'm ecstatic to say they're on the third phase of the trial, which if successful, therapy clinics will be available by 2020. They just need more funding so they can make another kilogram of of the drug (approximately around $400,000) which is necessary because the FDA requires it to be 99.9% pure in order to be used in the third phase trials.

Hope this info is useful for some of you guys.

EDIT: post removed for, "No infographics or other unautomated diagrams. Infographic vs. Visualization." ouch.....

[–]r6guy 23 points24 points  (30 children)

I like the idea of this study, but it never says whether it's a double blind study. At least I didn't see it mentioned. Do the people that make the initial and final diagnosis for PTSD know which people received the placebo vs the actual MDMA? If they are aware of who is getting what, I can't help but feel like their own desire for the MDMA to work would influence the way they make their diagnosis.

[–]Jakexx360[🍰] 34 points35 points  (22 children)

I asked Rick this question in person recently, and the answer is yes.

Check this out:


Our proposed Phase 3 trial is a confirmatory placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized study, with primary outcomes assessed by a centralized Independent Rater pool, in 230 participants with severe PTSD. The Phase 3 trial will assess the efficacy, safety, and tolerability of a flexible dose of 80 or 120mg MDMA (plus supplemental half dose of 40 or 60mg unless contraindicated). One group will receive MDMA, and the other group will receive inactive placebo. The treatment package of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy includes three monthly experimental treatment sessions with manualized psychotherapy (maps.org/treatmentmanual), preceded by preparatory sessions and interspersed with 12 weeks of integrative psychotherapeutic sessions.


is really a placebo vs mdma in this case? i mean,if you give aspirin oder a placebo to the patients in a study about coagulation they can´t say what they are taking, no difference...but mdma vs. sugarpills it´s something different, you know when you take mdma because of the psychotropic effects ot this...is it a real double blind study?

[–]Bootsypants 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Not sure if it's this one, but read about a study that used large doses of thiamine (iirc) as a control. Apparently, large doses cause tingling all over, but without other psychoactive effects. Not perfect, but impressive thinking anyway.

[–]TheUrgeToRun 8 points9 points  (7 children)

I was at a party where a guy thought he'd been spiked with MD - he had the best night of his life for free.

I didn't condone it at the time, nor do I now, but nonetheless it's interesting that simply thinking it can make a difference. Note that he was also an experienced drug taker.

[–]HiiiiPower 8 points9 points  (5 children)

Thats a bit different though because he was already probably drunk or intoxicated in general, its easier for a drunk person to believe they are on something else when they aren't. Although the placebo effect can be very strong alone anyway.

[–]topo10 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You're spot on. As someone that has taken a good amount of MDMA in my life, I cannot fathom someone being tricked into thinking they're rolling if they weren't already intoxicated to begin with.

There is almost zero chance a sober person would mistake a placebo for MDMA (assuming they're familiar with the effects of MDMA). I've been sold fake MDMA before and I felt a little different because I was anticipating the actual effects, but that did not last long at all.

[–]indigonights 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Rick Doblin talks about this in one of the podcasts. He said its almost impossible to do a double blind test because it is incredibly obvious whether or not youve taken mdma or a placebo due to the intense and euphoric effects of mdma. Instead, i believe they did tests where they gave patients differing dosages of mdma without telling them how much the dose actually was and examined the effects.

[–]SuperSpecialSauce 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Looks like a good way to measure proper dosages as well.

[–]hollaholla-getdolla 910 points911 points  (307 children)

The research and outlook in terms of mental health treatment for drugs that have been demonized for decades (MDMA, psilocybin, LSD, marijuana, etc.) is really remarkable. If the powers that be would pull their head out of their ass, a system where patients can use these drugs in a therapeutic setting might create a huge impact for those who have to suffer from these awful diseases.

[–]somesketchykid 427 points428 points  (153 children)

They are well aware, they're just vastly more profitable the way they are regulated at the moment.


Yea, before insurance I take over $1000 worth of pills a month with 7 medications. With cannabis oil alone that's all I need but I'm stuck waiting in an illegal state. It's so frustrating when everyone thinks you just want to get high. I'm a Christian and it's very hard to explain to people that cannabis is good.

[–]Clumsy_canadian 17 points18 points  (7 children)

Just explain that cannabis has a compound called CBD which isn't psychoactive and that's the compound that contains the medical benefits without the high that THC gives.

[–]rbmw263 15 points16 points  (1 child)

This should not be a neccessary conversation. The majority of prescribed drugs get you high as a kite

But it appears to be

[–]Clumsy_canadian 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But it is a necessary conversation amongst old Christians who've been brainwashed into believing it's the devils plant and causes rape. Meanwhile they're hooked on 6 oxy's per day for chronic pain.

[–]piratemonkeyduck 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Unfortunately it isn't that black and white: For some cases THC either increases the efficiency of relief or even is the cause of it. That said even in those cases the getting high from it is a nuisance and unwanted side effect. Many thankfully don't need the THC part, which is why e.g. Charlotte who Charlotte's Web was named after benefits greater from it than any more ordinary strains. I really wish where I read it from but there was another kid for whom that strain wasn't the most efficient one, but needed one with a bit more THC in. I really wish I remember what issues the other one had, seizures I remember was one of the issues for sure, but so did Charlotte IIRC.
Point remains, we can't go "THC evil, CBD good", because in some medical cases the former actually contributes to important relief.

[–]Baldaaf 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yep, for anyone interested in reading more on this, look up the "cannabinoid entourage effect," basically they have found that differing levels of cannabinoids (THC, CBD, CBG, CBN, etc) in a "dose" result in completely different effects than those individual cannabinoids administered alone. This has the potential for some groundbreaking new medical treatments, that currently can't be studied because of Schedule I.

But at least our new Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been quoted as saying, "Good people don't smoke marijuana."

[–]Cocoa-nut-91 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Gotta keep em sick, so they keep buying the product

[–]iamz3ro 180 points181 points  (108 children)

Let's not forget that if everyone started to use drugs appropriately, then the human race would see a giant boost in human awareness/awakening but the govts. don't want that, they want people to live in fear.

[–]Sense-A 59 points60 points  (91 children)

Awareness of what?

[–]plipip 127 points128 points  (4 children)

awareness that drugs are great

[–]Sense-A 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Fair enough.

[–]DeonCode 13 points14 points  (0 children)

No, see: now that you're aware, you're supposed to realize none of it is fair or enough. Get this guy more drugs.

[–]CokeOnTheSink 40 points41 points  (7 children)

Idk, but I did lsd a couple times and the conversations I had with myself without my ego lead to some extreme positivity that lasts to this day. I never had a problem drinking or consuming bullshit, but I started working out harder, cut drinking and loss my taste for anything with blatant sugar content.

[–]NettleGnome 23 points24 points  (2 children)

This is my experience too. I'm a much more empathetic, relaxed and happy person after lsd than I was before. I tried it in a very safe and beautiful setting on a day when I was in a particularly good mood and with my SO in the same room. Easily one of my top five best days.

[–]TehAnarchist 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This is exactly how I want to try LSD.

[–]NettleGnome 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The trick is to prepare properly and have someone there to help if things start to feel bad.

[–]hyprhzrd 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Awareness of the lack of freedom and how easy it actually is to achieve true freedom.

[–]TastyBacons 9 points10 points  (10 children)

awareness of reality, unadulterated by the soup of misconceptions that is the status quo in terms of knowledge or beliefs in general.

this increased awareness is a side effect of disillusionment. some drugs can 'lift the veil' of ignorance, so to speak; they can burst the strange little bubble through which you see the world around you, and expose you to the way things really are.

[–]Clumsy_canadian 11 points12 points  (7 children)

You'll never understand until you experience a powerful psychedelic trip as words can't describe. For me LSD and Ketamine has changed my entire outlook on life for the better. If you're taking it recreationally just to get "high" I feel like you won't gain much as your taking it for the wrong reasons.

[–]furdterguson27 16 points17 points  (1 child)

I hear this argument a lot and honestly I don't think there's a wrong or right way to take LSD. I mean all psychedelics should be taken with respect in a safe environment, but beyond that I don't think you need to go into the experience with some goal of life changing enlightenment. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking it just to have a little fun and hangout with some good friends, listen to some music, laugh for like 10 hours straight. Honestly I think that's a better approach most of the time.

[–]ioncehadsexinapool 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I want to take lsd so bad but I can't get over my fear of having a bad trip. Unfortunately I've had a couple HORRIBLE experiences with weed. Basically got way too high and thought nothing was real and was in a nightmare

[–]Wilrus 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Just make sure you are with some close friends, have a good environment to trip in where you have the option to go outside with not many people around. Have your supplies ready (food, drink, a couple of movies on standby) and you should be fine :)

[–]Fazzoom 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The trouble with LSD is that if you're worried about having a bad trip, it'll magnify that worry and you'll have a bad trip. There's a lot of people here talking about how great LSD is, and it is amazing, but it's a powerful drug and it can really mess you up. Be careful

[–]Clumsy_canadian 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A dose of L-theanine or a small dosage of xanax might help alleviate that fear but you definitely want to be in a relaxed and comfortable state of mind before entering a psychedelic journey. I've convinced myself there is no such thing as a bad trip and that whatever I experience is for the best and to just enjoy the ride. Biggest thing is getting stuck in a loop, having a few different songs lined up can help break that.

[–]FrankDrakman 6 points7 points  (28 children)

How is MDMA "more profitable" right now? As a Schedule 1 drug, it's not allowed to be used for psychotherapy as the article describes. It's neither expensive nor addictive like coke, meth, and heroin, so most dealers don't really care about it. Big Pharma probably doesn't like it because it seems to CURE rather than TREAT.

[–]anormalgeek 38 points39 points  (3 children)

The war on drugs benefits those who are part of the enforcement and imprisonment pieces. The DEA still claims that marijuana has zero medical benefits.

The majority of the prison population is non violent offenders and chief among those are people arrested for drug possession.

Admitting that even one of these is actually hugely beneficial makes people start questioning the whole thing.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 5 points6 points  (2 children)

and they went after kratom a couple days after pharmaceutical companies submitted 3 or so patents that utilize the compounds in kratom. Fuck the corruption.

[–]afskjdhfksjhfksjhdfk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The more expensive and difficult to make drugs they sell you for treating depression are way more profitable

[–]Spiralyst 50 points51 points  (35 children)

Psilocybin has a growing record of studies that show its effectiveness treating depression.

We have a law and order president now. I wouldn't hold my breath on any progressice drug reform policies. Lots of people living in the west are concerned this administration may try to roll back state legislation concerning cannabis, which was hard-earned and delicate right now.

The truly sad thing is while these substances continue to be completely misunderstood or outright marginalized, we almost certainly won't see any reform dealing with opiate abuse, which is at epidemic levels now in the US.

The double standard is crazy. Licensed pharmaceutical companies are now responsible for hooking more people on opiates than any drug cartel ever could imagine to impact. And no one blinks when it becomes public that somewhere around 10 million Americans are dealing with this type of dependency. Drug rehab clinics run adverts in TV constantly now.

[–]MyPasswordWasWhat 18 points19 points  (12 children)

Not only no reform, they're trying to ban kratom, which a ton of hard drugs addicts have used to get off of them. As well as people with prescription opiates/anxiety medicine taking it to get off of them. I can't look it up right now, but I remember a state that banned kratom and their rate of herion overdoses went up.

[–]timdongow 17 points18 points  (5 children)

The DEA is the ones trying to ban kratom. It has nothing to do with the Trump administration. They tried banning it back in September but thanks to massive outcry and a petition that garnered over 140,000 signatures, they withdrew their intent to schedule. A truly unprecedented move.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 7 points8 points  (3 children)

I was seriously proud of the senators and congressman who joined in on challenging the DEA. I felt like they really listened to what people wanted, even though it was a tiny percentage of both house and senate-- it was still pretty successful and bi-partisan.

[–]timdongow 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Hey I've seen you on the r/kratom sub a bunch. What a coincidence seeing you here haha. Yeah it was pretty awesome I have to say as well. Let's just hope the fight continues to be a success, and that this latest petition we just completed actually gains some positive attention from the current administration.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

we'll see. I'm interested in that a marijuana-positive person might become the head of the DEA. On the other hand, Trump seems to be okay with protecting his special interests (banning people travelling from Muslim countries but NOT Saudi Arabia where Trump has business interests, even though we need to cut ties with those bastards asap.)


threads like this are great. I really hope it raises awareness not just for MDMA, but for kratom or anything else that can help with ptsd or other issues, mental or physical.

[–]MyPasswordWasWhat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, I didn't mean trump specifically. Just the government on the whole opiate issue.

[–]touch_my_tra-la-la 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I'm pretty sure that was in Florida, after that kid who jumped off a bridge was found with kratom in his pocket, which of course people took as "he killed himself because this substance made him depressed!!"

I took kratom daily for a while, and while it has its own set of drawbacks and possible dependency issues, it really can be used as a great alternative to taper off strong opiates, or for long-term opiate users who see less side effects than from their prescriptions.

[–]MyPasswordWasWhat 2 points3 points  (4 children)

The substance got me off of my not working depression pills, and my prescription tramadol. You can definitely have dependency issues with it, as with any other drug, but I feel it's safer than a lot of them, even the legal alcohol. Some people are going to turn to something to give their life relief no matter what, and I think some things should be around to let them do that, prescriptions or not.

[–]touch_my_tra-la-la 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Absolutely. I personally think alcohol is one of the worst drugs, if not the worst, and I've done the whole gamut. I definitely think it should be available to anyone, and there really shouldn't be many regulations because I could see them doing something really stupid like not realize the average dosages are in the 4-8 gram region.

[–]timdongow 9 points10 points  (3 children)

[–]LBGW_experiment 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Wow, at least something positive night come out of this

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

May Chuck Rosenburg die painfully for the shit he pulled. What an asshole.


This is anecdotal, but taking LSD genuinely saved me from very serious depression. I was able to explore my thoughts from a perspective I had never known and never would have known existed. I just spent hours working through my problems in an incredibly constructive way and I came out the other side a much more confident and happy person. Taking LSD that one time changed the way I think in an incredible way.

I think that drugs like this have an incredible potential to help people deal with mental illness. There is a lot to mental illness that is physiological but changing a mode of thought or thinking about life in a new way can do so much in helping treatment.

[–]CokeOnTheSink 10 points11 points  (6 children)

Haha my last comment was pretty much something similar. LSD is definitely a game changer.


LSD and MDMA are the two drugs that have had the most profound impact on my life. It's also not like chasing a dragon trying to relive the high, I don't actually have a strong desire to do those drugs at any given point. The impact is all from you, the drug doesn't alter who you are.

Drugs are great.

[–]InsightBoner 23 points24 points  (46 children)

I agree. It’s interesting to see how many people try to seek out these experiences on their own and illegally because the currently accepted medical approach has failed for them. There’s a ton of value in healthy ‘set and setting’ and having someone knowledgable there to support you and debrief with you in the following hours and weeks. Some ‘underground’ places even offer this, though many approaches offer none or only a mediocre version.

I’ve had some extremely heavy psychedelic experiences with a “shaman” in a major city in North America that just sent me home at 3am because I was coherent enough to realize I was a human being again. I got home having not eaten for maybe 12 hours and woke my spouse up to hug me and tell me I was going to be okay after such a fucking wild, traumatic experience. The trauma came from having no debriefing after such an unsettling experience, though after about a year I made peace with it and felt (still feel) like it was a very valuable experience.

Fortunately, I’m a therapist and end up socializing with many other therapists, so a few of them had similar experience and provided me with the much needed processing work later. Most/many other people would not have this sort of luck or circumstance, so I really think having MDMA etc become legal at least as medicine is very important. This also gets around all the purity and source concerns as well. Stay safe out there :)

Edit: Here’s donation link to this wondrous organization: https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign=11 They often have ‘matching’ donation campaigns as well. This is one of the few groups I actually donate money to, if a stranger’s belief in their work means anything to you.

Some more info on ongoing and future studies they’ve got going that include numerous substances and entheogens: http://www.maps.org/research

Double edit: I explained a bit more about my trauma in a comment just below this, as a few folks suggested it was unclear above. I left this comment unchanged due to...posterity?

[–]IamOzimandias 20 points21 points  (20 children)

I had PTSD for years, and I sought out this method also. And it worked for me a lot too. If I had some help I could have gotten better ten years sooner.

[–]quitevexing 6 points7 points  (19 children)

I have C-PTSD... would you mind giving a bit more detail with your experience with this? Insurance isn't covering what's been working for me anymore so I'm looking into pretty much anything. Would love more info from someone who has done this.

[–]InsightBoner 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Consider checking out this short vid on MAPS research participants, some involving combat experience I believe. There is likely more info and videos if you dig around a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWIc4vRFoYY

MAPS is still doing research and has more planned, perhaps you could get involved with them here: http://www.maps.org/participate/participate-in-research

I want to briefly reiterate how important it is to do something like this in a safe, therapeutic setting. There are numerous issues with just buying ecstasy and taking it at home or with a friend etc, purity of the substance, ‘set and setting’, and a well trained person to debrief and process the experience with being some of the more important ones. I empathize with your situation though, and I’m sorry to hear about your experience with insurance. While I still don’t recommend it, there are various websites etc you can get purity testing kits for street drugs, which is the route I’d take if I couldn’t get into a trial currently. Please stay safe.

[–]quitevexing 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh I'd certainly try to dig down a trial before I went rogue! Thank you so much for this!

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

while I definitely think lsd would help, I also want to send you to r/kratom which is legal (for now, at least in most states and some countries) and cheap and easy to get ahold of. I'm so happy whenever I hear people talk about how it's helped them and have heard from several who say it's helped a lot with their ptsd.

[–]I_Like_Your_Pooper 20 points21 points  (11 children)

Many in Psych do not feel this is an approach with consistent results. I work in healthcare/academic medicine, and we have no ties by regulation to big pharma by the nature of our organization (regulatory, etc.). It has promising results, but it is not ready for broad release in any sense.

That said, I agree that it should be explored without the harsh governmental regulations that we have in place...but with caution.

[–]null_work 10 points11 points  (8 children)

There shouldn't be any "feel", there should be a statistical analysis of data.

[–]I_Like_Your_Pooper 19 points20 points  (7 children)

It's a term, nothing more - there's always a suite of treatment options when it comes to psych-pharma treatments. "Feel" only references a subjective response, as it's almost always a trial-and-error approach to see what treatment works best for a patient.

[–]halr9000 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Ketamine is another example; it's being studied for use in treating bipolar disorder.


Most of the few studies show very unpredictable/lacking information regarding extended long term treatment. Until these studies are present, or show positive result, only ignorant leaders will adopt the practices.

I can say this because not only do I have the academics, but I know of a "cure" for my OCD. And as bad as I want this drug to be "legal", I can't, because it will kill me long term as the studies are lacking.

[–]eajay_ 11 points12 points  (3 children)

I think it'll take a new generation of politicians and voters to bring a new attitude towards using these drugs in medicine. Although someone could be very intelligent it's easy for anyone to get stuck in their own beliefs. Same goes for all seemingly old fashioned laws including topics such as gay marriage and abortion IMO.

[–]sparhawk817 4 points5 points  (2 children)

The worst part is, I know that someday people will be saying this stuff about my generation, about our backwards beliefs and such. Time, is a weird and wonderful thing.

[–]eajay_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Exactly, in the same way I'm sure many slave-owners and racists would have been decent but it was the way they were educated and brought up made them do evil things.

[–]_NerdKelly_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)


[–]Vanic007 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Reading a book called "Tools of Titans" and one of the chapters goes into depth how nature based drugs like Ayahuasca, 5-MeO-DMT, and Iboga/Ibogaine can cure addiction in literally hours.

Makes me so sad and so mad to know that these drugs are purely schedule 1 as big pharma and the dea will take a major hit.

My mom works with patients who struggle with heroin, xanax, meth, and other addictions and they pay hundreds for 30 minutes, thousands for treatment, and in most cases relapse. Such a simple fix, fuck the us. I'm so done with this bullshit.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 1 point2 points  (4 children)

have you read at all about kratom? Cheap, available, legal in most states and it really has helped a lot of people kick their opiate, heroin, and alcohol addictions.


If it was all never made illegal we'd have years of experience at our disposal and not even need to pay a therapist or doctor. Which is exactly why they were made illegal.


Except we're almost certainly going to have to wait another 4 years before the idea of legalization and widespread studies is even considered.

I've waited too long knowing there's a possible cure/treatment to my ailments. The government is actively working against my health and well being. I'm quite disappointed.

[–]virus5877 124 points125 points  (11 children)

2 treatments, 83% cure rate.

Let that sink in for anybody who has ever dealt with psychotherapy...


[–]Clark2312 44 points45 points  (1 child)

These numbers are hard to really get your head around. Most people spend a life time on drugs and talk therapy. With three sessions we are looking at some people being cure. CURED. This needs to be talked about a lot more. I really hope this opens up the world of research into treatments with a variety of drugs for all kinds of mental issues.

[–]digitelle 62 points63 points  (66 children)

As long as one is getting pure MDMA. It should somehow be regulated for this sort of use. However I can understand how much it is abused and how much artificial mdma is going around.

Also whether it is pure or artificial the side effects can be quite powerful depending on the person. It's a tricky one that's for sure.

[–]dopanice 16 points17 points  (4 children)

The MDMA they use in these trials is pharmaceutical grade and very expensive. MAPS has been fundraising for a year to pay for the trials. Www.maps.org

[–]digitelle 20 points21 points  (1 child)

aka nothing with a Pac-man face stamped into. haha

[–]aupa 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Or tesla

[–]FrankDrakman 10 points11 points  (1 child)

There is absolutely no reason for it to be very expensive. Shulgin's book "PIKAL" makes that perfectly clear. The ONLY reason it's expensive is all the government BS to keep it out of our hands.

[–]asuwere 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The actual synthesis is very simple but one reason why pharma grade drugs are expensive is because each and every precursor/reagent used needs a complete pedigree on its origin. Check out reagent prices at your favorite supply house and notice the cost dramatically rises as the purity goes up. Go from technical to analytical to human grade and you'll see a huge price increase. You've got to use human grade with every step you take and everything you touch. Next, you're working with a controlled substance and that requires expensive licensing and its own set of burdens. All in all, $400K/kg seems about right.

[–]dead-dove-do-not-eat 40 points41 points  (9 children)

All MDMA is artificial.

[–]digitelle 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Ok, let's say MDMA be PMA, which can be sold stating otherwise.

[–]coralto 20 points21 points  (7 children)

You mean fake. Artificial just means it was made by people and was not naturally occurring.

[–]Jufflubagus 10 points11 points  (6 children)

I kind of love how we don't consider any thing we do to be naturally occurring. If we see an animal make something (e.g a beaver dam) it's naturally occurring, a human makes it, and it's artificial.


Exactly. Technically anything that's composed of matter is natural. Which is literally everything.

[–]flamero 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Also the notion that "natural" things are somehow better and good for you. Arsenic, cyanide and countless toxins are naturally occurring, you don't want to ingest those.

[–]MzOpinion8d 2 points3 points  (0 children)

True, but it doesn't mean we don't want certain others to ingest them. I'm just sayin. Not naming names or anything.

[–]dead-dove-do-not-eat 2 points3 points  (2 children)

a human makes it, and it's artificial.

Well that is the literal definition of the word: "man-made".

[–]ajos2 25 points26 points  (6 children)

The crazy thing is that lithium works because it does a bad job of being salt.

[–]jesus-bilt-my-hotrod 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Care to expound on this? Sounds interesting.

[–]ajos2 16 points17 points  (3 children)

My insanely non-medical background explanation: your brain uses salts to attaché to certain receptors in the brain that are typically related to emotions. The receptors 'prefer' lithium salts and if they are present they are more likely to bind. The reason they work as a mood stabilizer is essentially that they are a bad replacement for the salts that normally make this connection so the emotions are experienced less intensely. Take that with a huge grain of salt (haha) and pray that someone with a better understanding comes along and fills in the gaps.

[–]PartySunday 13 points14 points  (2 children)

We don't know why lithium works. There are about 10 different theories and each of them are just as likely due to the many different ways that lithium affects the brain.

The theory you're talk about is the NMDA antagonist excitotoxicity theory.

Basically, there are ions, not salts, ions in channels in your brain. These are called calcium gated channels.

The gates are these things called NMDA receptors. If a certain chemical binds to the gate, it opens up and dumps positively charged calcium ions out and they decide to have a party.

Now these parties are supposed to happen but if these parties become too intense or long, you get what is called "excitotoxicity".

This is where your brain cells work themselves so hard that they essentially poison themselves with their own shit.

See cells produce toxic chemicals as metabolic byproducts and the brain gets rid of these before too much damage is done under normal circumstances.

However, during excitotoxicity the cells are partying so hard that the brain's defense mechanisms can't keep up, leading to cell death.

It is a theory that excitotoxicity can play a role in mania as it is very clear that during mania, the brain is having a party.

The lithium ions have a higher binding affinity than the chemical that naturally fits in the plug. This means that they boot it out.

Now lithium is what is called an "antagonist". This means that the lithium binds in the same area as the normal chemical but it doesn't do anything whereas the natural chemical would pump up the party.

A good metaphor for this would be that the lithium has the ability to steal the aux cord from the natural chemical, but the lithium doesn't play any music. The party is over.

This theory is supported by the fact that other NMDA antagonists work well for bipolar disorder.

[–]returnofheracleum 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is what I love about the internet.

[–]Death_Blooms 45 points46 points  (39 children)

My Dad is schizophrenic, you want to see a drug that fucks you up, look at lithium.

[–]certifiablycrazed 2 points3 points  (3 children)

You can say that about any psychiatric medication. Everybody has a different chemical makeup and unfortunately we can't just run a quick test and know the best drugs to take. I've been on countless psych meds and am finally on a cocktail that works. I've also been through what seems like countless doctors and therapists. No, lithium didn't work for me. I'm on 700mg of seroquel at night and 50 mg twice a day and can finally function and have a real life. I have feelings and everything! I had to have the attitude to not give up until I was my normal. I have to try hard and go to therapy every week though. People want the easy way out. There isn't one with mental illness! I know countless people who use illicit drugs (I'm including marijuana in this) and say it helps. It takes away my anxiety. I'm sure it does but guess what! A certain amount of anxiety is needed in life! I have horrible anxiety, so I get it. The only real way to get anxiety under control is therapy, lots and lots of therapy. You have to put the work on. It took me years to realize this. I've done the whole drug thing and was addicted to benzos for 15 years. I just wish people would do the research so they can advocate for their best interest. I'm not judging anyone because mental illness is hard as hell and sucks but it can get better! You can be happy and productive in society again.

[–]sarahmorgan420 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Their goal is for it to become a regulated prescription medication by 2021.

[–]maladjustme 8 points9 points  (11 children)

As a former service member who came home with severe ptsd I hope this becomes available real soon because the countless hours I've put into therapy just aren't helping.

[–]shastad2 5 points6 points  (2 children)

You might try EMDR

[–]maladjustme 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Just signed up, thanks again.

[–]maladjustme 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Never heard of it but I will do my research. Thanks for the suggestion.

[–]CrazySimulation 27 points28 points  (19 children)

For all those considering it to treat PTSD, it is a risk. You could make your anxiety and stress a whole lot worse. In a clinical setting, there may be a lot less risk, but you should still do the research and be certain.

Some people preach that you can't have a bad trip on drugs like marijuana or MDMA. They always say things like "Oh, it was probably something mixed in." It's not true. A person can continually have a bad trip on medical marijuana even.

Please understand that we have different bodies and minds. Absorb, process, and perceive things differently. Stop perpetuating this lie to people.

[–]dorathehexplorer 21 points22 points  (12 children)

Cannabis - regardless of strain - triggers severe depressive episodes for me. People who are gung-ho about pot literally don't believe me when I tell them that weed made me want to hurt myself for days after I got high. It's just another kind of victim-blaming, where the person who suffered the bad trip must have "done something wrong" or "been in the wrong mindset."

[–]howtospeak 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Psychedelic communities are worse than this, they will always blame the user and say it was their fault.

Psychedelics can be traumatic and PTSD will happen

[–]dorathehexplorer 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Thank you for expressing what I've had in mind for so many years.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 1 point2 points  (3 children)

have you tried anything else and had any other experiences that run counter to what most people experience?

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 6 points7 points  (3 children)

it's funny, but for all the open-hearted bonhomie stereotypes of pot-heads, I have found on more than one occasional that potheads, or marijuana-enthusiasts are some of the most judgemental people if they even tangentially perceive that your experiences might be even slightly seen as a threat to their plant.

Plenty of cool marijuana-enthusiasts so I don't mean to generalize, but when I run into this, I just shake my head because it's so backwards.

[–]Clark2312 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is absolutely true, and people should know the risks. However the people who have a 'bad trip' on MDMA compairing it to pot I think paints the wrong picture. The current practice is a very calm and controlled one on a drug that already has a fraction of the risk of an anxiety issue in comparison to pot.

[–]azkbaninmate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well spoken!

[–]oohthequestion 4 points5 points  (2 children)


I agree with almost everything that's stated in this study. The only issue I have is that it doesn't bring up how harmful this drug CAN BE. With recreational use by a person with stable mental health and the knowledge to know what other substances should not be consumed while on this drug, it can be beneficial to many aspects of how a person views things.

I make my next statement as a person who has dealt with mental health issues for a long time. I believe that use of this drug has made it worse. I realized that things like depression and anxiety can be extremely emphasized during the "comedown" of mdma. It can ruin friendships and relationships while creating an insatiable need for human connection and understanding.

To summarize, all I mean to say is that this drug is not for everyone. But if handled properly (constant hydration and without use of ANY other drug) it is something I think that everyone should try.


So first thing....not that long actually.

And Second thing, I've had ptsd from a crazy car accident. Took mdma when I was still in the thick of it and had a crazy bad come down. Like similar to those bullshit news story warnings about mdma and all that.

Was super fucked up for sure. I don't know a week or like 3 or 5 days or something that sucks.

I wouldn't reccomend taking mdma without a therapist if the event has been within the last 9 months to a year. After that though....totally fair game. Go get fucked up on drugs if you want to.

Just make sure you're not all still fucked up from the ptsd. Cuz that sucked.

[–]CaptainMoonman 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Does anyone have information from a less biased source on this? They don't seem to give citations for their claims and, given that they're an organisation dedicated to proving how MDMA can help with the treatment of PTSD, I don't expect that their data to be particularly unbiased.

[–]Clark2312 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I'm Canada we are on stage 3 trials with great success. Here is some more information.

Infographic: http://imgur.com/a/MUruB

Website: http://www.maps.org/mdma-canada

Video - PBS report on current research [8:31]: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ILh3s_A1oQE


Hi Canada

[–]Imwat 8 points9 points  (9 children)

hell yeah. glad to see the world starting to realize the obvious benefits of these "horrible drugs" they've made illegal

[–]fattyspecial 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sorry but data is not beautiful without statistical analysis comparing the treatment and control arms. This little graphic isn't science.

[–][deleted] 89 points90 points  (27 children)

So sad that conservatism keeps this away from people who really need it.

[–]Clark2312 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If we can promote this kind of research I think the stigma will continue to slowly weaken. By now just about everyone had seen the differences medical marijuana has made in the lives of people who need it. This is what progress looks like

[–]InsightBoner 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing this. I think maps (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) does really great work. They have been working on studies like these for many years, and I think they are wonderful, intelligent advocates for these sorts of very important substances.

I work as a therapist and have signed up to hopefully help out in the latter set of their trials, or at least get in on the training to provide these services once they are more widely accepted.

Talk therapy is, IMO, excellent when used in appropriate contexts and possibly in conjunction with other health professionals. It can definitely be frustrating and tragic for all involved when a person needs help but just can’t get it—so instead they bounce around with various psychopharmaceuticals for a few years, sometimes finding one that helps and sometimes not. Anyway, I’m really excited to see this sort of work get more funding and public support, and I think I read about them wanting to do CBD studies as well. Can’t keep up with everything I suppose.

[–]lonxxing 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Here's a relevant study comparing MDMA assisted psychotherapy with traditional therapy

[–]atticSlabs 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I bet, just scary when all you hear and see is about street use and how bad it is for your brain and happiness, in the long run. I'm sure they have a much safer and different formula obviously. But big concern for me is after they stop using it.... Will it come back even worse? Or even at all?

[–]demosthenlocke 9 points10 points  (9 children)

I don't know a thing about this. But it does bother me that I cannot see a single comment herein casting the slightest bit of doubt or concern. Is one even allowed to voice a concern?

Here are some that are not specific to this but are in play. Why is it that data on nonstandard treatments are freely accepted from sources with clear conflict of interest? Why don't they have to prove themselves with real clinical trials? And if it really worked and the drug companies were in bed with the government, why wouldn't they deregulate it so they could make money? A lot of these arguments and establishment-bashing just don't make sense to me.

[–]gunfulker 6 points7 points  (4 children)

"Why don't they have to prove themselves with real clinical trials?" It's illegal. Yes, even to study it, massive red tape.

"And if it really worked and the drug companies were in bed with the government, why wouldn't they deregulate it so they could make money?" It's illegal. Low incentive to spend money lobbying to legalize a substance that you can't patent.

It's not so much establishment bashing, but having been already bashed by the establishment. I'm not saying it's use for PTSD is legit, but I when you have a drug that impacts the brain dramatically, it's not so much a question of if it can be used to treat mental conditions, but which mental conditions it can be used to treat and at what dosage the benefits outweigh the harm.

[–]Behenk 4 points5 points  (0 children)


I might be missing something, but it's a non-profit.

Funding This work was supported by The Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a non-profit organization.

I genuinely don't know if conflict of interest applies to non-profits performing research with donations (there's a button on the right), but conflicts are noted in the first trial also.

Why don't they have to prove themselves with real clinical trials?

Are these not trials? This one, and the follow-up. My English is alright but maybe I'm confusing one kind of research with another.

Phase 2 trials require a lot of money, and MDMA of some purity. Walter White has not responded to inquiries.

OP for this post explained:


Even if it were deregulated, they still just couldn't go to Joe on the corner and tell him "Need some E for my safety and efficacy of ±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine-assisted psychotherapy in subjects with chronic, treatment-resistant posttraumatic stress disorder, yo".


It's not a daily dose of pills you take home. This is layman conjecture but I'm guessing lobbying for deregulation might not be a good investment.

[–]DrywallJackson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For a second, I confused MDMA with MMA and I thought that sounded really badass.

[–]Sun_will_rise_again 9 points10 points  (8 children)

I have PTSD, my concern is a lot of people with PTSD are prone to addiction...drinking and taking drugs is a way to escape the hell that is going on in your head....doesn't this just enable/encourage that idea?

Sure it temporarily made you feel better....but eventually those demons come back and now you know that all you have to do is take some drugs to escape them. I've already heard about people trying this therapy on their own or with a friend.

[–]R0b0P1ggy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with you 100%

[–]InsightBoner 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing; that’s a reasonable concern. As you say, most addiction is a way to cope with pain of some kind. MDMA is not addictive (at all, I think?), and in these sorts of therapeutic uses it’s only taken a few times, twice during this study I believe.

Back to that pain: MDMA puts you in an altered state of mind so you can re-process the disturbing memories from a bit more distance and in a more accepting way. My understanding is that typically those memories are really painful and it becomes very difficult to process them in a healthy way (healthy in this case meaning that you can think about them when they come up and still “be okay” or not be overwhelmed, or have it really alter your functioning).

So, the goal of this MDMA therapy is not to give the person a high for a few hours so they feel better in that time. Instead, the goal is to catalyze this really useful altered state to then do the work that is often too painful to do during normal consciousness. Having said all of that, while I have experienced some trauma, it was not from war and I have not been diagnosed with PTSD. If my descriptions seemed to trivialize your experience in any way it was not my intention, it was my ignorance. The therapeutic environment is really important to this process though, as are the subsequent (and prior) therapy sessions—which is much different than finding someone local who claims to sell ecstasy and just taking it on the weekend, to be clear.

Take care :)

[–]mtlotttor 12 points13 points  (1 child)

One major side effect is you might become a Raver unexpectedly. Sometimes hard to detect because often mistaken for a midlife crisis.

[–]what_comes_after_q 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From an objective standpoint, this data is not beautiful, and I wouldn't put much weight behind this study. First, it was 20 people in the study. Of those, 8 were in the control group. This means the effectiveness of the drug is based on 12 people, which is too small of a group to be statistically significant. And most importantly, it has not been replicated. These kinds of studies are incredibly susceptible to all kinds of unintentional bias in terms of administration and selection of candidates. The summary of this study is best put:

Study demonstrates potential clinical applications for MDMA.

That's it. It's a study that needs to be followed up, and quoting statistics from it is grossly premature.

[–]ZeroRefractoryPeriod 15 points16 points  (30 children)

I'm not sure about PTSD, but every time I take MDMA while a little depressed, I end up being more depressed the day after the trip is over since MDMA drains your serotonin.

Edit: I guess PTSD is a form of depression where the reason for depression is from traumatic memory, and MDMA helps with objectively identify and resolve the source of the negative emotion. Other types of depression aren't too straight forward like that, like seasonal ones.

[–]novemberdream07 33 points34 points  (1 child)

To be fair it's not being touted for its use to treat depression.

[–]dotslashpunk 4 points5 points  (0 children)

To your edit: no. PTSD is not that at all.

[–]LickMyBloodyScrotum 10 points11 points  (22 children)

Yes but were the reasons you were depressed addressed during roll by a therapist? If not, that's why you were more depressed instead of just run down by the serotonin depletion.

[–]schizokid 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Its funny because I took MDMA at a therapy session once. The therapist didnt know I was on it though, well she may have.

[–]Clark2312 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Just curious. How did you find that experience? Were you more open, less gaurded? Or just high?


As someone who suffers from PTSD and is currently doing EMDR, I would be totally on board trying this. I've never done a drug in my life so I'm not saying I'd be onboard because of the drugs, but EMDR is a very tough experience. It basically needs you to relive the trauma vividly again and again to be effective. It's honestly just as though as the initial trauma.

[–]agent__orange 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I hope you get to try MDMA. For me it was like 10 years of therapy in a single evening

[–]Animus141 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I would suggest reading "Acid Test" by Tom Shroder if you're interested in MDMA and or acid/psilocybin studies, it's an interesting book and the audio reader is one of the best around if you're into that.

Arthur Morey reads it.

[–]DoLittlest 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Anyone know where one could find a list of these therapists in the PNW?

[–]Zoklett 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I have severe PTSD and I've always thought this might be beneficial for me but have never had access to it. I've tried ecstacy in other contexts and the additives caused too many side effects to be worth it for me as it made my depression worse, but the pure MDMA might be really useful.

[–]Waitwhatismybodydoin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

come check out r/kratom and search out the stories people have posted about how kratom has helped their ptsd. Luckily it's still legal in most states (if you're in the US), cheap, and easily available. it's not like mdma but it seems to help people a lot.

[–]fuck_bestbuy 1 point2 points  (2 children)

As good as this news is, I have to wonder how many recipients of treatment will go on to seek out black-market MDMA once treatment is completed. Especially considering the track record of prescription opioids in that department. I hope patients are properly educated on the abuse potential and consequences of overuse.

[–]JohnBoston123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Anyone know how I can find out if these will be conducted in Australia?


As someone with PTSD, this sounds like something i really wish i could check into. But i'm only 19 with conservative parents.



You won't be 19 forever.