If God is so good and powerful, why does evil exist?

By SailerFraud

It's possibly the oldest question in religion. If God is so good and powerful, why does so much evil and injustice exist in the world? After all, God created the universe, heavens, earth, and all living things on earth. The Bible says God defeated Satan and death, can do all things, and answers prayers.

Thousands of years later, evil still exists, even in the church. Crime, divorce, discord, embezzlement, theft, sexual abuse (especially against children), suicide, even murder.

The honest answer is that there never was a God, an invisible man who was watching you and answering your prayers. However, religion is based on lies that this invisible man who does all things except listen to your prayers. In order to cover up your first lie, you must produce more lies to cover up the first one. The Christian lies about faith, how God answers prayers when it was just coincidence and 1000 other times your prayer wasn't answered, and more logical fallacies.

Thousands of years later, this simple question cannot be answered by the Christians who worship this all-powerful God, and never will. If God can create the universe and all life, why can't this simple question be answered?

Actually, we atheists have the answer all along, that there is no God. But the Christian continues to follow the God of lies and non-existance.


Telmi said...


Good post. Good question and the answer, as you have stated, is simple: there is no God. But there are people who prefer to believe irrationally rather than follow logical reasoning. This is a challenge for all atheists/agnostics - continue to post questions for believers to think about.

xrayman said...

Throughout my travels that lead to my non belief, I have had several email relationships with Christians and I still write one gentleman who is a pastor and Bible literalist. He blames every bad thing that happens on this planet on the fact that Eve ate the apple. He sites the original sin as the reason why God won't answer the prayers of starving children. See folks God is real, it's just that Eve fucked it up for the rest of us. I love the silly logic people come up with to justify the loving God's bad behavior.

P.S. Does anyone else get fucking tired of typing that mumble jumble of letters three or four times to get their letter posted? What the hell is up with that bullshit?

Stew said...

If you have a blog, wait till the spambots start sending you crap. You'll turn on the word verification pdq!

Plus sometimes the letters make cute sounds. like mine for this comment = "ooyku"

Preston said...

doesn't the bible describe this? All of the prophets explain how horrible the world will be in the end. Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah! He also said that most of the chosen will be decieved. Not many, not half, but most. It isn't unusual for such sin to be in our midst. Maybe you havn't read the bible?

the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. I say yes, blame the church. There is so much deception rampid, that it seems that christianity is nothing but molding clay to whoever the person is. Like you can believe in any range of denomination, as long as you believe in Jesus. it's sad really. We have to bring the glory back into the church.

Your words don't concern me Sailer. Jesus is coming back, you shall see. 21 natural disasters, trouble in the middle east, the abomination of desecration, and the sky will go black.
jussst wait. you'll see.

.:webmaster:. said...

Preston, you sound as if you can't wait to see your fellow human beings suffering in all the horror, destruction and bloodshed promised by your holy book.

Wow. That's sad.

That's very sad.

Oh, and Preston, the CHURCH wrote the words in the Bible. That is to say, people wrote every single word. They weren't gods, they were people. Their words are of no more authority than any other person's words.

Preston said...

I've already told you everything i can, Dave. I don't have any more tricks up my sleeves other than that cheesy one liner, You'll see. So that's it, i guess.

twincats said...

God is the originator of the "do as I say, not as I do" school of parenting. Also, the "because I said so" club. When that stops working (as anyone who ever experienced that sort of thing from any authority figure knows it always does) then you get "I have a good reason, you'll just have to trust me."

When that happens in real life, most people eventually get to the point where they just say "whatever" and turn their back on said authority figure.

But the xtians say that god is a special case. Thank goodness I got to the point where I said "whatever" to that!

Spirula said...

He also said that most of the chosen will be decieved

So gawd's not omnipotent after all.

natural disasters

Yeah. That IS new. Never had those before.

trouble in the middle east

Yeah. That too IS new. Never been like that before.

the sky will go black

Wow! Yeah. It's not like it does that every 24 hours.

jussst wait. you'll see.

Cool! I bet no one has been made a fool when their endtime predictions didn't come true. Especially not in the last 2000 years.

You apocolyptophiles always show us up. We're always wrong.

(sorry for the previous post, it didn't like the tags)

.:webmaster:. said...

Preston, men wrote the Bible.

Why do you believe what those writers put down has any more validity than what other men have written?

And the reason you believe the Bible is special is because other men told you that it is special. No god spoke to you, I assume.

Preston, it's OK to be wrong. I was an End-Times believing Christian for three decades. I was wrong to believe that stuff. And you'll figure it out too one day... You'll see.

sailerfraud said...

jussst wait. you'll see."

Yes, I am the author of this post. That's the great thing about disproving god - it's so simple and doesn't require extravagant multimedia or videos.

Christian nutheads always have to build large churches and temples, extravagant multimedia presentations, light shows and costumes, to cover up their mounting lies.

Preston, did you know that I have the divine power of prophecy? Look at this post on Jan 3, 2007. I predicted (it's labeled anonymous, not sure why my name was erased to anonymous)

Here are my predictions for the United States for 2007.

1) Someone will be murdered this year.
2) A school shooting will occur and a child will die.
3) A hurricane will do damage to the United States.
4) Someone will die from AIDS.
5) A religious leader will succumb to sexual sin, be chastised, then repent for the forgiveness of God.

So far, 4 out of 5 came true so far. I have a vision of a hurricane coming, and I guarantee it. When all 5 prophecies are fulfilled in 2007, you don't need to wait for the false god who never answers prayers or fulfills his prophecies. You can bow to me and give me your tithing, for I have proven to speak with God.

xrayman said...

Sailorfraud, I bow down to you oh great one. How could you have made such predictions? I will add a comment of my own. The reason the tornado blew through the high school and killed eight innocent kids wasn't because of the random wrath of nature, it was because of dem homasexuals. If they would just stop doing what they do and stop wanting to have rights, all the natural disaters would stop. I just wanted to beat Jerry and Pat to that line.

Anonymous said...

Jesus is not coming back."Some standing here....." should tell you something is amis. I can make this a long post but if you are here that means you are curious and there is plenty for you to start with at this site if you are up to it.

Jamie said...

Preston wrote:
He also said that most of the chosen will be decieved...Maybe you havn't read the bible?

Actually, Preston, that isn't what he said. Haven't you read the bible? The verse you are referring to is Mark 13:22 where it says, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible." ...implying that it isn't possible to deceive the elect.

There...my good ol' Sevy upbringing is good for something...

Telmi said...


Jesus' second coming is overdue by more than 2,000 years; a so-called divine promissory note that has long matured without filfilment. It is obvious that you are ignorant of your own religion, assuming of course it is Christianity. And assuming you are aware of the atrocities allegedly committed by that maniacal SOB, aka God, as narrated in the Old Testament, you will also need to be aware that Jesus had a role in these atrocities, if you believe that Jesus and the maniacal SOB are "one". If you are a true Christian [or a pseudo-one?], and believe in the Trinity, then you will have to admit that the Trinity [which of course includes Jesus] committed the atrocities and issued all the ass, immoral instructions that can be found littered throughout the Bible; Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Judges, Samuel, Kings etc etc.

Preston said...

Jamie, i was actually reffering to the passage in Matthew.

Sailer 598 of the 756 prophecies have already been fulfilled. I'm guessing you chose to just skip over a forth of the bible. Since 1 out of four verses tells about the future, why would i believe it if none had ever come true?

I wouldn't. If you could live the life i've lived, then you would surely see that i am in the most logical state i can be in. Not only my seeing of countless miracles, but my experience i've had in hands down believing. If i were to attempt to describe anything i've seen, felt, or hear, you would think i'm a liar and a crazy person. I'm not some random fundy all hyped up from his pastor's sermon,so don't think of me as a stupid person. I have searched this site high and low, and not found one thing that convinced me that Jesus isn't Lord. I have read alot, and UNDERSTOOD every big or little word.

For a future "debate's" sake, please take that into account.

Preston said...

Oh, and telmi..

Jesus has delayed 2000 years huh? Well maybe you should look up the things that have to happen before he returns. Because those are starting to take place.

Jim Arvo said...

Preston said "...598 of the 756 prophecies have already been fulfilled. I'm guessing you chose to just skip over a forth of the bible."

I'm guessing Jamie did not skip anything. I'm guessing that you, Preston, have either never read the "prophecies" in their proper context, or have never heard of midrash. But, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, so let's back up for a moment...

Does it strike you as odd that someone could read about all the fulfilled prophecies and not be impressed by them? How could one possibly argue that they were all coincidental? The odds against that are astronomical, right? Surely you've seen compilations of all the various prophecies concerning Jesus, along with estimated probabilities that they would be fulfilled for a random person. It's simply outlandish to think that one person happened to fulfill them all by chance. Is this close to your position?

Now, Preston, I'm about to give you some information that I hope you will find interesting. It may possibly clear up something that must be very puzzling to you; i.e. why seemingly rational people would ignore such compelling evidence. Are you ready? Here we go...

1) The majority of the "prophecies" that you allude to were not written as prophecies at all, which becomes clear if you read them in their original context. Example: Psalms 22:16 is said to be a prophecy of the crucifixion of Jesus, as it foretells the piercing of his hands and feet. If you read chapter 22, you will see that its plain meaning is not a prophecy at all. Do you disagree?

2) The majority of the "Messianic prophecies" are not messianic at all. Example: Isaiah 7:14 is said to be a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus. If you read chapter 7 of Isaiah, you will see that it is indeed a prophecy, but its plain meaning has nothing at all to do with a messiah. Moreover, it applied to a time long before the (supposed) birth of Jesus. Do you disagree?

3) Most of the bona fide messianic prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus. He did not bring world peace. He was not king of Israel. He did not bring about a unified world religion. And the notion of a "second coming" (to tie up all those loose ends) was nowhere suggested in scripture or a recognized part of the Jewish tradition. Do you disagree?

4) There is abundant evidence of midrashic interpretation in the New Testament, much of it being introduced by the author of Mark (whoever that may have been), then further elaborated by the subsequent gospel writers. For instance, the author of Matthew (whoever that may have been), attempts to place Jesus in Bethlehem at the time of his birth. However, this seems to be based on nothing but a very strained reading of Micha 5:2. He later places Jesus in Nazareth according to "scripture" which nobody has been able to locate. There are numerous examples of later gospel writers "cleaning up" the interpretation of Mark. Example: Mark has Jesus spit in the eyes of a blind man to make him see. Matthew's version is less crass. Jesus cursing the fig tree is another wonderful example, as is his riding on an ass (or was that two asses at once?).

In short, the prophecies that you put so much stock in do not stand up to even modest scrutiny. To those of us who have taken the time to read them and to understand what is claimed, they fail miserably. When I first began to investigate these claims (as a teen), I was absolutely flabbergasted to discover what was being passed off as prophecies. I am still astonished to find that so many believers think these prophecies are convincing evidence. As I've said before, if you give me as much latitude to yank sentences completely out of context, interpret them wildly, change words, and invent history, then I'm reasonably confident that I could find as many equally compelling prophecies in Moby Dick that prove Nietzsche was the messiah.

Does that help you understand our position a bit better?

As for all those prophecies that are "starting to take place", I assume you mean such things as requiring a "mark" on the forehead or the arm in order to conduct commerce, or the rise of an anti-Christ, or the world-wide tumult that is to precede the second coming. Regardless, as you not doubt agree that they have "not yet" come true, then I presume that what you are offering is a prophecy of your own--i.e. that they will in fact come true. I suppose we'll just need to wait and see if your prophecy on prophecies comes to pass.

Astreja said...

One problem with "prophecies" is that they can be deliberately made to happen. "Gee, if I put on a blue robe and ride backwards into Detroit on an incontinent camel, it'll fulfil the Coming of the High Mucky-Muck of Zorgum."

A second problem, particularly with older "prophesies", is that they very well may have been written after the events that they allegedly foretold. Nowadays we manage to catch a lot of pious frauds with the help of science. But now, go back to 290 BCE and imagine a priest "discovering" an allegedly ancient writing that conveniently happens to support his particular faction or point of view.

For these reasons, prophesy underwhelms me and leaves me unconvinced.

Dave8 said...

Preston, you have zero credibility in the truth department, you have to earn it, before you want people to accept what you are saying.

So, outside of your "desire" to spread "your" truth, what else do you have?


Well, Preston, perhaps you should look up a few things, as well. You obviously lack the theological training required to make the remarks you are making, unless you are an outright liar. However, I take it you are just ignorant - the better of the two choices.

If anyone wanted to look at the most "prominent", and "important" prophesy, or "event" that was supposed to come to pass, in order to judge the "end times" scenario... then Jesus' return would be the "number one" on the list, since he is the "Christ" of the "Christian" religion...

Here some biblical literature for you Preston, read...

The end will come within the lifetime of Jesus's listeners.

Matthew16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Luke 9:27 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

Matthew 23:36 - "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

Matthew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Matthew 26:64 - "Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Mark 9:1 - "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Mark 13:30 - "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

Mark 14:62 - "And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Luke 21:32 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

John 21:22 - "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

The end will come within the lifetime of the New Testament authors.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 - "Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Corinthians 7:29 - "But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none."

Philippians 1:10 - "That ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.”

1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 1:2 - "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...."

Hebrews 9:26 - "But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

1 Peter 1:20 - "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

1 Peter 4:7 - "But the end of all things is at hand."

1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

The end will come soon. (Within a couple thousand years or so.)

Philippians 4:5 - "The Lord is at hand."

James 5:8 - "For the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

Hebrews 10:37 - "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."

Revelation 1:1 - "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.”

Revelation 1:3 - "The time is at hand."

Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:12 - "Behold, I come quickly."

Revelation 22:20 - "Surely I come quickly."

Preston, if the bible is to be considered a guide for followers to find truth, then there can really be only "one" way to interpret each prophesy, or passage.

Obviously, the end times prophesy is "not" one of those prophesies used to indicate the bible as a single "Truth", by which one can "preach" to another person.

Faithful, believers were "lied" to..., that would be the ones that believed the bible, and that Jesus would return in Paul's time, or by the time the New Testament authors died.

And, what happened after those propesies failed? Oh, more biblical prophesy, without specifying dates, using "quickly" as a reference, meaning... it can't be checked for accuracy.

So, Preston, there are three time frames in the bible for the end times prophesy to come true... Two are outright lies, and one... can't be checked for accuracy.

The implication is obvious; we have two lies, and something that you can't "ever" prove... if the end times were to happen "now", you wouldn't be proving anything, because we would all experience the moment, in the past tense, and your statement would be a meaningless, no duh...

Personally, the fact that there are two well founded lies, via prophesy, and a third one that can't be validated by any means on the same topic, allows me to accept the bible as nothing useful in terms of trying to figure anything out...

If I never read the bible once, I would not have made a spiritual difference in my life...

The only thing reading the bible has done for me Preston... is to enable me to tell believers such as yourself, that you are uneducated in your own belief system... Not that you are wrong about your valid personal belief, but that you are well founded in your ignorance that supports it... and over-enthusiastic about displaying it...

If the "end times" prophesy can't be validated, or can be validated as a lie, then... really Preston, there is no need for this "second coming" thing, or there to be some eternal hell... And, if there is no eternal hell, there is no need for salvation... and if there is no need for salvation, then there is no need for Christ...

And, if there is no need for Christ, then... who cares about any other prophesy in the bible or "Christianity" in general.

Yes, like many things in life, we have to seek wisdom by going through the research, no matter how painful or time-consuming... but in the end, like many things, once we have become educated, the "resources" that were used to get us to that point, are evaluated for meaning...

For me, the bible has been put-aside... in terms of furthering my spirituality... If I knew nothing more, than the fact that Jesus, never authored one line in the bible, it would be enough for me to ignore the whole "context" as non-authentic and biased, based on second hand opinion.

Enjoy, your ignorance Preston, some say its bliss.

Dave8 said...

Dave8: "If I never read the bible once, I would not have made a spiritual difference in my life..."

Change: "If I never read the bible once, it would not have made a spiritual difference in my life..."

And, I should add, it would not have made a progressive difference in my life... There is nothing "unique" in the bible that has provided me the opportunity to find meaning in my life... Once I dropped the bible, as the sole truth, I was able to move forward and find meaning...

In short, Preston, you were you before you read the bible, and you will be you after you read the bible... the only difference, will be how you perceive yourself, and accept yourself, based on how valuable you believe "words" are.

Christianity is what happens, when "words" become more valuable than people. And, people wonder why many Christians are confused and seeking answers in life...

jim earl said...

Hey guys, you are all wasting your time on cretins like Preston, Marc, Neo, etc, etc. They are fucking idiots and are happy in that state. Leavem be. It won't make an ounce of difference when they die. If they want to be fucking idiots, let's let them be. Nothing we could say or do will ever change their minds. A closed mind is a terrible thing to have. Just be thankful that we who have escaped the clutches of religion are truly free of religious bullshit.

preston said...

Jim Arvo, i disagree with your claims. They don't make any sense. Maybe it wasn't a "prophesy" but it became true either way. All i know is that all the writers of the bible expressed the same thing, even if they had never heard of each other. They expressed the same morals the same focus, and the same prophecies in some occasion. I like how you called me uneducated though. It made me think how stupid i am sometimes, to say the stuff i say. It's like a challenge to me. To be educated enough to hold a debate with an atheist. But i also like how you concluded. We will all see in the next 30 years or so. I will see the light, or you will see the light. You have logic, and i have experience. Whether that means anything, we shall see.

Dave8, i've never heard that approach before.. I'll be thinking about those verses in the gospels, and the context that they're in.

You stated that i was the same person before i picked up the book, and i'm going to have to disagree with you on that. My character, my desires, my mindset, everything about me changed after i broke into deeper "revelation".

You claimed that after you dropped the book, you now can find meaning to your life. But i just want to know if in all the time you have been "set free" have you found the purpose and meaning to your life you thought you could find? Or are you just that one guy.. Please, i'm curious to know the kind of motivation you can get when you look at a life with no direct purpose. I know that Jesus promises me royalty, and the power to change the world if i really wanted to. the power to heal, and set free. That through him i can defy death, and satan himself.

I just want to know the purpose of living then dying many years wiser. maybe 90 years. Is your job to change lives? make this world a better place? Well you know our world isn't going to last too much longer. With global warming, population increase, and lack of food to supply the increasing population. What's going to happen when we are all gone? will evolution start up again on another planet? Life has got to be so much more confusing on the atheist's "side".

what are you here for?

preston said...

Sorry that there was such poor grammar throughout the whole comment. I just didn't want to go back and fix anything.

Jim Arvo said...

Preston: "...i disagree with your claims. They don't make any sense."

Okay, you disagree. Let's see why...

Preston: "Maybe it wasn't a 'prophesy' but it became true either way."

Methinks you make a distinction without a difference. But, let's walk through an example anyway. Suppose I say to you "Preston, you just shot yourself in the foot." Then, an hour later a man named Preston somewhere accidentally shoots himself in the foot in a hunting accident. Would you think that my prior statement was prophetic? Would you say that there was anything in my statement that "became true", even if you don't label it a prophecy? No, of course not. That would be rather silly, would it not?

But please understand, that's NOT what I'm claiming we see in the Bible "prophecies" at all. Not by a long shot. Here is a better analogy (for most of them, anyway). Suppose that several hundred years after my statement, a woman named Beatrice drops a hot branding iron on her foot. Now would you think there was anything that "became true" in my prior statement? Even more ridiculous! The time is wrong, the name is wrong, the implement is wrong, and the original statement wasn't even a prediction of any kind. The only similarity is that something bad happened to somebody's foot. That, Preston, is closer to most of the Biblical prophecies; today we might call it data mining. Find a few words scattered throughout the Bible that can be construed as having "foreshadowed" some other important event (real or imagined), once they are extracted from their proper context. They predicted nothing, so they prove nothing.

However, even my analogy above does not do full justice to the absurdity of Biblical "prophecies". Let's go back to the woman named Beatrice. Let's now state that there was never any real evidence of her having dropped a hot branding iron on her foot at all. However, a true believer in Beatrice found my statement in an ancient internet archive, declared it a "prophecy", and thereby concluded that something bad must have happened to Beatrice's foot. There we go Preston. We have finally arrived at a fair analogy with Biblical prophecy. It's called midrash. Look it up, or follow the link I provided earlier.

Preston: "All i know is that all the writers of the bible expressed the same thing, even if they had never heard of each other."

What do you mean that they all expressed "the same thing"? That's a gloss that Christians often resort to, and it's categorically absurd. Do you mean to tell me that the god of the old testament, who condoned and even commanded despicable acts such as genocide, infanticide, rape, pillaging, and all manner of cruelty is expressing the "same thing" as the savior portrayed in the New Testament? Can you read Judges 9 and explain how it expresses the "same thing" as the gospel of John? As for the authors having "never heard of each other", that too is absurd. Both the authors of Luke and Matthew apparently borrowed heavily from the author of Mark. All the gospel writers lifted phrases from the OT. The entire "passion" scene consists of stitched-together phrases lifted from the OT (there is midrash again). That is precisely how Jews of the time believed that god "spoke" to them--through scripture. That's how they justified constructing new stories from very old text.

Preston: "I like how you called me uneducated though."

Come again? The closest thing I can find to that in my previous remarks is this: "I'm guessing that you, Preston, have either never read the 'prophecies' in their proper context, or have never heard of midrash." Is that the statement you are referring to? If so, it appears that you would rather twist my words than address them. Have you ever read the "prophecies" in their proper context? Do you know what "midrash" is?

Preston: "But i also like how you concluded. We will all see in the next 30 years or so...."

Another Preston prophecy. Is anybody keeping track of these meta-prophecies?

Jim Arvo said...

Hello to Jim Earl,

I can't disagree with you. As you said "If they want to be fucking idiots, let's let them be. Nothing we could say or do will ever change their minds." But I do hate the idea of idiotic ideas being left unchallenged. I happen to think that if all of us point to the naked and ridiculous emperor from time to time, it will make a difference in the long run. True, it probably won't phase Neo, Preston, and crew. So be it. But with luck, humanity will some day free itself from its self-imposed religious stupor, and on that day finally emerge from the Dark Ages. I won't be around to see it, but I like to think I'm pushing in the right direction. Peace.

xrayman said...

I just can't grasp the concept of our lives having no meaning without God or a hope of an afterlife.

My purpose is to fuck my lovely wife as often as I possibly can, to be a productive member of society, and to raise my kids to be decent non judgemental human beings. I guess besides all that my purpose is to laugh as much as possilbe and have a whole lot of fun along the way.

How could you not find purpose in my life Preston? The thought of eternal life just doesn't turn me on that much. I find peace in the fact that we will all return to that state as we were before our births.

God Damn I just don't get how one can't find purpose without worshiping an invisible man in the sky.

Jamie said...


It certainly helps me, though. I've heard so many of these arguments from the Christian viewpoint without ever hearing the opposing side. What stands out is how consistently the Christian side loses this debate. I see them on here trying to sound intelligent, but a good chunk of what they say doesn't even make sense.

I, for one, am glad that there are people on here engaging fundamentalists in debate, especially over prophecy which kept me too scared to think that maybe the whole thing might be a sham (despite what my gut was trying to tell me for some time).

Thanks for keeping up the challenge, guys.

sailerfraud said...


Since you are so superstitious in the imaginary, why don't you worship the real thing - me. I already have a religion formed, and while your religion requires you to tithe 10% of your income, I'll give you full blessings for just 5%. You get a whopping 50 percent savings for your money.

I already provided 5 prophecies which will be true in 2007. I know you value prime numbers, and the numbers 3, 7, and 13 are already taked by Christians. I picked 5 to bring sanctity.

If you worship and tithe to me, I won't chastize you for pornography, sex, drugs, and gambling. It doesn't mean you're exempt from the worldly laws, but if you are arrested for these, I'll provide spiritual blessings and forgiveness just like Jesus, and won't condemn you, unlike your pastors.

While the existance of Jesus Christ was never proven or validated, you know I am a real person that walked on earth. I'll meet you in person, provided you tithe to me.

About prayers? Yes, I listen to your prayers, though I may not answer all of them. But whether you pray to me or Jesus or a tree, I'll provide the same results. However, I only charge half price and will not condemn you so much on sin.

How about it, Preston? Worship me and I will fulfill your sipritual needs at a discount price.

Anonymous said...

This is what I found when clicking on some "GOD" link. I've been struggling with why I'm unable to accept all of the hype about organized religion in general, since my mom passed away in August, and I just couldn't resist clicking. I thought it was amusing..

"Assume there is no God: then this world, and happiness in it, is extremely important. Indeed, it is all there is. So it is a great tragedy whenever anyone does not have a long and happy life here. The death of a child, or a painful life in a third-world country, is an unimaginable tragedy, which nothing can mitigate.

If you have seen your own grandchild killed by a car, or have traveled in poor countries and have seen the misery of people starving slowly to death, your own sense of justice demands that there be more to life than the vale of tears we experience in this life. It is just not fair that the only life a small girl knows should end almost before it is begun, in an agony of injuries. It is just not fair that so many millions of people be born into circumstances that they have no control over, and that condemn them to unimaginable suffering every day of their lives.

Are we ready to say that this beautiful universe, which is so incredibly orderly, is also diabolically unfair? That would make us only a great cosmic joke. That is not acceptable.

Our sense of justice demands that these wrongs be righted. But by whom? Not by us, that's impossible: only by a Supreme Being.

We have a conscience that lets us know right from wrong. Yet in this world, the people who do not follow this guide and commit murder and cheat and steal and lie and are selfish and mean are often the ones who are the most successful. Honest, good people living quiet lives of loving and charity often have horrible illnesses, or lose loved ones, or are born into abject poverty. Our sense of justice tells us that there will be, there must be a future time of accounting, when the books will be balanced and the inequities of this world will be resolved. Yet with no God, no Divine Justice, this is impossible.

Many of our readers ask: how can there be a God if He allows children to be raped and murdered? We ask: how can there not be a God, in a world where this in fact happens? It is only His Divine justice that can right this wrong. It is only a God with infinite power that could bring any good out of this unspeakable evil."

twincats said...

Ah, yes.

The world is so horrible and unfair and there's so much suffering and pain, God must exist to provide an afterlife to compensate for all the ugliness.

Or, is it: The world is so wonderful and complex and beautiful and special that God must have created it just for us!

We (exChristians) here pick: None of the above

Shannon said...

What divine justice do victims get? Do they get to kiss god's hand instead of his ass?

Divine justice is bullshit...just before Jeffrey Dahmer was shanked to death he accepted jesus into his heart and he was very, very, sorry for all penis sandwiches he ate. If Dahmer is in heaven, he's sitting next to the 13-year old that he drugged and he tried to zombie-fy by drilling holes into the boy's head and dumping various acids into his brain.

Of course, this is only true if the 13-year old had first accepted jesus into his heart - otherwise he's in hell.

Shannon said...

HUMANS need to do something...WE need to ensure that if people are hungry that WE feed them or teach them how to feed themselves. WE need to step up and punish those who hurt those who are unable to defend themselves. WE need to educate people on smart family planning. WE need to do the research to cure cancer and other diseases. And if WE can't cure the ill then WE need to ensure that they do not suffer unduly. Because WE are it. There is no benevolent and all-powerful god.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Show a man how to pray for a fish and he'll starve to death.

Astreja said...

Riddle me this, Preston: If "purpose" is so important in your view of the universe, what is your god's purpose? If you feel that it doesn't need one, then please be consistent and recognize that no one else needs one either.

Personally, I don't feel a need for some overriding purpose. Short-term goals get me through life just fine. Right now, in between reading the posts on Ex-C, I'm sitting here playing my clarinet. Last Sunday I had a lovely time renovating my house. Tomorrow I have a karate class. And so it goes.

Frankly, I'm quite happy being a collection of interesting molecules that does interesting things. After my eventual death those molecules will become something else. To me, that's all the immortality I will ever want or need.

tigg13 said...

Hey, SailerFraud!

You wouldn't be in the market for a good apostle, would you? I work cheap and I can write one heck of a gospel.

I am willing to consider being martyred to demonstrate my faith in you so long as I don't have to do anything too gruesome or kinky.

I would also like to hear your policy on virgins in paradise.

tigg13 said...


A promise.

Why isn't Preston royal now? Why hasn't jesus imbued Preston with super powers already?

Preston, I truly pity you. You must really loath and despise yourself if the only way you can find purpose and meaning in your life is to think about how much better off you will be after you are dead.

As far as non-christian motivation goes, have you ever heard the story of the Master Fisherman.

He was out strolling down a river bank looking for a good spot to fish carrying his $500 rod-n-reel, his tackle box full of hand tied flys, his leak-proof waders, his space-age lures, his electronic fish finder and a whole host of cutting-edge equipment.

And as he worked his way down the river, he happened upon a young man sitting on the bank fishing with nothing but bamboo pole, some string and a plastic bobber.

"Caught anything?", the old pro asked.

"Nope." the boy replied.

"What kind of lure are you using?"

"Don't have a lure."

"How about your bait?"

"Don't have any of that either."

"Well, how do you expect to catch any fish?", asked the pro.

The boy looked up, smiled and said, "What makes you think I WANT to catch any fish?"

Anonymous said...

Your next to last post shows you are now grasping.Admitting that something you thought was prophecy and now found out it wasn't is progress. You really need to find out the truth about the so called prophecies in the O/T pertaining to Jesus. You may have to re read this sentence several times before you grasp the significance of it and that is the simple fact that those prophecies were not considered or recognized as prophecies before the inception of Jesus. These are what is termed "manufactured" prophecies as certain passages were pulled out at a later date and then claimed to be talking about Jesus. There are Messianic prophecies of which Jesus did not fulfill any. Jesus cannot be the son of Joseph and decended from Moses and have God as the father.You can't have it both ways. Outside of the bible there is not one shred of "first hand" evidence outside of the bible. First hand evidence is evidence is what is written at the time of the supposed events. Many notable historians lived and wrote not one word about him. How can that be? You need to think about how did the words of Jesus ever get to the bible in the first place. Do you think the apostles walked around all day with pen and pencil(like presidential biographers) waiting for the master to mumble some notable passage and the apostles in all their wisdom knew just what to record? You may have been watching too many movies.

Dave8 said...

Preston: "I just want to know the purpose of living then dying many years wiser."

Being the wiser, allows us to have a deeper understanding of the meaning in our lives. If one can't be free to seek out meaning, then it could be suggested that some are living "meaningless" or "less" meaningful lives.

Preston: "maybe 90 years. Is your job to change lives?"

Whether one wants to accept it or not, we all change, and as we become... we change others to some degree. So, even if I didn't want the job, Nature has demanded I partake of the labor force.

Preston: "make this world a better place?"

I do tend to make a change for the better of the whole of humanity, as it does bring shared joy to me, in many different ways... again, if we are all connected, then helping someone else, helps me be more at peace.


Paul was preaching the end times apocalypse two thousand years ago as well... and here we are blogging. Perhaps, his calendar was off by a few thousand years.

To say that the earth and our Universe will change adds nothing new to any knowledge that everyone doesn't already have. Put a date on it... and it becomes more meaningful. However, as the authors of the books of the bible found out, putting time stamps on their prophesies, made them out to be fools... Its why current day music artists tend to refrain from putting dates in their music, because the song only becomes relevant for that single year, etc.

It's smart to be cautious, and to keep an eye on the global environment, because as humanity we have the potential to control many things; population, food supply, etc.

Preston: "What's going to happen when we are all gone?"

If the Universe remains true to its history, it will continue to change, and we'll still be part of the standing potential of the Universe. Obviously, an over-simplification, but... you get the point hopefully. "Some" form of change will continue...

It's the religious that believe change will cease to exist... And, if you are in heaven and others are in hell... there is "no" potential to change or to "become"... You are what you are, for all eternity, and there is nothing that you or anyone else can do to change... And, well... that doesn't seem to be what reality shows us.

Preston: "will evolution start up again on another planet?"

To evolve means to "change", and the instruction of evolution is the instruction of biological history... The question isn't "if" or "when" there will continue to be "change", there is very little cut and dry in our Universe...

However, there is "potential"... And, it would be extremely presumptuous to suggest that the "potential" will fail to be there, if the planet earth ceased to exist. However, its the audacity of religion (specifically Christianity) to suggest that "all" potential in the Universe ceases to exist, after the second coming of Jesus.

What would life be like, if every day was exactly the same, and nothing ever changed... there couldn't be joy without sadness, no happy without sad, no bliss... no love without strife. Eternal life would be... mundane.

Preston: "Life has got to be so much more confusing on the atheist's "side"."

Suppose you’d have to be an Atheist in order to make the distinction…

Preston: "what are you here for?"

To dance by flight...

Alan Watts:
"The only way
to make sense out of change
is to plunge with it,
move with it,
and join the dance."

Nature, creates the music and dynamic of life, it presents the stage... I merely understand, that I have the potential to dance or to attempt to sit still... no matter how compelling the music is... In the end, the music goes on... and I will either have been part of the dance or not... but it is my choice, and I do have choices... I don't deny the potential, for me to dance, whether it be in this life... or the afterlife...

I chose a partner, my wife, whom I dance with daily in my life... and I encourage people to stand up, and be part of the dance... even if they "believe" they are crippled, because they have a strong conviction in their "faith", which suggests such...

Many have beliefs that require them to bind and anchor themselves, and not dance; they consider that anchoring to be a joy many times... but in doing so, they lose the potential to find greater joy...

William Blake:
"He who binds to himself a joy,
Does the winged life destroy,
But he who kisses joy as it flies,
Lives in Eternity's sunrise."

I dance... and let my spirit fly freely in order to experience the passing joys in life... and when I die, I will fly once again, in some manner...

Nature is cruel to those who bind themselves to a single belief or thought, because it changes... however, to those who embrace change, potential, and freedom... they find Nature beautiful.

So, what am I here for... to dance... to let my spirit fly... and to allow myself to admire the beauty and elegance in such a life...

And, so... Preston... what are you here for?

Anonymous said...

*Applause* That was brilliant. :)

sailerfraud said...


I am looking for 5 apostles. Like all religions, they find certain numbers sacred, especially prime numbers. I am making 5 my sacred number.

I can use someone who can write a gospel. It doesn't have to have any historical accuracy whatsoever. The best way to lure people is to reference astrological and celestial events that sound bizzare and poetic. People will believe this is a sign from god.

I don't require sexually bizzare sacrifices, and I am certainly against child sacrifices and molestation.

I require 5 percent tithting, which is a 50 percent discount bargain compared to 10 percent tithing with Christianity. The ultimate promise is that you will have anything you want upon death, including virgins in paradise (but no children) if you fulfill my sacred steps.

Anonymous said...

I thought that you guys would appreciate the humor in this. :)


Anonymous said...


It wouldn't post it all...?

tigg13 said...


5% huh?

Well, I suppose I can live with that.

I mean, what with you guaranteeing me eternal life and everything.

With virgins to boot.

So, you can count me in!

Oh, I'm assuming that I will get a piece of the burnt offering action - I mean, that's a given, right?

jim earl said...

SailerFraud, after reading the posts I thought about a position that I might could fill for you in your "church" if and when it happens. I know you will need a janitor/groundskeeper. I will provide those services just for the fullfillment of the virgins in heaven deal. One thing though, I would require the virgins now, just in case. I could start immediately. Thanks, Jim Earl

sailerfraud said...

I will be writing another article on how to create the perfect religion. Some preliminary things about forming a religion.

* Study astrology and base your religious events on astrological and celestial bodies and events.

* Write your holy book based on astrology. Of course, it doesn't need any truth, but the more poetic and bizzare it is, the more people will believe it.

* Pick certain sacred numbers. Prime numbers like 3, 7, and 13, are good, but others like 12, 40, and 72 will suffice.

* Practice the art of lies and hypocrisy.

* And much more. The less truth and rationality it has, the more people will obsess over it.

eel_shepherd said...

First, sailerfraud, I don't know how you do it, but you have a knack for starting threads that attract many comments from the members (and from the diehard Xtians, even). Whatever your secret is, long may it continue.

Also, concerning your choice of 5 as your lucky holy number, you might want to rethink that one. Xtians have a thing against 5, such as the 5-pointed satanic star. I recommend, if you persist in wanting a "tithe" of 5, that you change from base ten to base four, when "5" becomes "11". That way, you take in the same amount of dough, the Xtians get to whang off to yet another (un-taken) prime number, and it's close enough to the number they're already used to that they'll just see it as a chance to "deny" themselves one more latte at Starbucks. Just trying to be helpful.

I always hate it when Xtians bring up mathematics (and I mean to take NeoCognitron to task for it next, in another thread) because they always try to drag it down to their own level. But I can see why and how it happens. Once you start thinking about either infinity or mathematics, it isn't long before you start thinking of the other one. And what's heaven if not infinite? God, too, come to that. Except that god's only infinite in the sense of a divide-by-zero error: it looks infinite to a man on a galloping horse, but closer inspection reveals it to be, uh, a divide-by-zero error. The Xtian understanding of the worth of math is to make a fraction with total "prophesies" in the denominator and total "fulfilled prophesies" in the numerator, say "wow, what're the odds?" and launch into some even more frenzied whanging-off than before they embarked on their ill-judged exercise.

"...Inside the museums/ Infinity goes up on trial;/ Voices echo `This is what/ Salvation must be like after a while'..." (Dylan, Visions Of Johanna) The Xtian concept of heaven, and what will constitute a "deed" or an "action" in that (eternal) environment might even be worth a thread of its own; maybe in the Theology forum. Hmmmm...

Passerby said...

I agree with anonymous' response to you. That was a fabulous reply to Preston. If you ever write a book concerning religion, the majority of that reply would make a nice introductory paragraph or preface.


Dave8 said...

Anonymous & Passerby, thanks for the kindness... The liberty to speak freely, feels great :-) Perhaps, future publishing is in the cards :-) Anything, to offer a society a positive alternative to religion... Take Care

twincats said...

What is it with men and virgins?? What do the wimmins get? Male virgins aren't too enticing, in general.

I'm gonna have to stick with paganism.

boomSLANG said...

Twincats: Male virgins aren't too enticing, in general.

Unsugar-coated we have: "Two-pump chumps don't cut it.... EVER."


sailerfraud said...

Oh yeah, perhaps the greatest weapon in building your religion - sexual suppression. I don't personally see what the big deal is with virgins, but anything that messes up a human being's natural sex drive is certainly a powerful weapon.

sailerfraud said...

I think the topics I bring up are so simple and obvious truths - that there is no God and Christianity is based on astrology thousands of years ago by people who had nothing better to do at night except gaze at the sky, guess where those lights in the night sky came from, and make up fantastic stories.

but it's also human nature to avoid the simple and ovbious. We are the most thinking species on earth, which is good in some ways, but thinking too hard may force us to see beyond the simple truth.

tigg13 said...

Hey, I didn't say I was going to DO anything with the virgins - I was just curious if there were any.

(Man, I hope my wife doesn't read this!)

sailerfraud said...

One more important necessity for creating the perfect religion. You need a symbol, like a corporate logo, to define your religion. Christianity is so popular because the cross or fish (just 2 intersecting arcs) is so simple and easliy reproducable.

The more easily it can be reproduced, the more likely it can be seen on something like a tree, mountainside, light reflection, cloud, burnt piece of toast, etc... People will believe this is a sign of god, and immediately start weeping, foaming, have seizure attacks, and go crazy.

I love these conversations. It brings the best of our minds together and gets us thinking rationally about truth and logic.

Telmi said...

To Jim Earl and Jim Arvo,

Yes, we should not allow any silly talk to go unchallenged, especially when it sounds irrational and can have an adverse influence on people generally.

Heretic Zero said...

I have been assualted numerous times in my long life and God was never in it, but some asshole human was!

The reason evil exists in the world is cuz some asshole (probably the local Deacon) wants what you have and is willing to kill you for it.

Anonymous said...

I think the answer is somewhat simple, and does not involve attacking anybody I know, its a novel comcept, but you don't actually have to insult others to get your point across.
There would be no word for "day" if there wasn't night. You couldn't recognize light unless you knew what darkness was, and vice versa. If there is nothing standing still around you, its difficult to see how fast your car is going.
More importantly, the Bible says that God gives people free will. We choose how our world turns out. Life is bad here because of people, and the decisions we make. People are starving because the rest of the world doesn't see starving people to be as human as themselves. War is rampant because the the peoploe of the world are always looking for a reason to hate, and don't usually need to look hard. If you have decided to hate someone or something, you will find it very easy to do so.
The existance of God may be a matter of debate, but the as for subject of the posting, the reason there is suffering in this world has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. It is simply mankind creating our own fate, and our own little hell on earth.

Anonymous said...

what a stupid question. i cant stand ppl that ask such dumb things. "boo hoo, if God is so good...why this why that, why did sept 11th happen, why is there starvation" lemme ask you somethin you homo. when was the last time you did somethin for God? fuckin fat fuckin whore youre lucky God is so forgiving cuz if he was anything like me he'd have demolished this piece of shit world a long time ago with all the fuckin fairy ass bastards like you you fuckin bitch, i hope your kids get run over and everyone you know gets raped and shot in the head fuck off and die.

boomSLANG said...

lol. Spoken like a True™ representative of Christ.

SEO said...

I know that I’m a bad little hairless primate for feed the trolls…

but do you think that Anonymous is going to get kiss Jesus’ feet with mouth?

jack meehof said...

anonymouse, hope that made you feel better, you dicklicker.

freethinker05 said...

SEO, I think anonymous will kiss jebuck's feet; and while he'at it, he can kiss my ASSHOLE!!!
Peace, Roger A/A

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