tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post3197707296702807216..comments2018-09-03T19:06:20.280+01:00Comments on Dante's Wars: Awake the Iron! - the AlmughavarsSwampsterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07273339036868534074noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post-63711709415546033952011-11-27T13:31:45.124+00:002011-11-27T13:31:45.124+00:00@Salvador. The concept of Spain (Hispania) exist d...@Salvador. The concept of Spain (Hispania) exist during the visgoth (read Isidoro de Sevilla)and after the arrive of the arabs with the consequence of the division of the Peninsula in differents kingdoms and counties (one real fact: if there hadn´t be a arab invasion, Catalonia wouldn&#39;t had exist), many kings (mostly castilians) were declared Rex Imperatore Hispaniae with the visigothic idea to united the Peninsula, being example the marriages as happen between the Petronila of Aragó (Aragon) and Ramon Berenguer IV of Catalonia, or between the Chatholic Kings Isabel and Fernando.<br />In the chronicles of Muntaner or Desclot, the almogavares never shout before the battles Catalunya!. <br />They also shout Matem, Matem! (we kill, we kill) as Desperta ferro! or Aragó. Aragó!<br />Another thing we can say that the the almogavares speak Aragonese because both language comes from the same root as the catalan. <br />The land of Catalonia wasn&#39;t rich, it was mainly agricultural and very very poor(and it went poorer with the climatic change that started in 16th century), there is many reference about this, and the commerce activity only took about 150 years (and only few had its benefits). If you had read the Divina ·Commedia&quot;, Dante writes: “E se mio Frate questo antivedesse, / la avara povertà di Catalogna / bellota Fugger, perché non le offendesse“, 300 before of the that Quevedo is accussed by the catalan nationalists (as you are as you writes) of catalanophobia.<br /><br />Good work Swampster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post-2668840770386392702011-08-05T11:26:06.654+01:002011-08-05T11:26:06.654+01:00Hi Salvador, I understand that various terms can h...Hi Salvador,<br />I understand that various terms can have modern political connotations as well as various different meanings in the past. My use of Aragonese as a shorthand for the armies of the King of Aragon, including Catalans and others, could have been better, though I feel the use of Catalano-aragonese confederation would have been rather anachronistic. Muntaner certainly makes the point that the Catalans are different from the Aragonese, though he also list a number of other countries where there are a multitude of languages spoken in lands ruled by a single king, including Castile and England.<br /><br />I have tried, I think, to use &#39;Spain&#39; or &#39;Spanish&#39; as a geographical term similar to &#39;Iberia&#39; and &#39;Iberian&#39;. To say that Spain did not exist in Dante&#39;s time is true in a political sense but is not true geographically - he refers to Spain on four occasions but does not name the various kingdoms as far as I can find. Muntaner also refers to Spain at various points, using it to refer to the whole peninsula. As you know, he was writing in Catalan and was a participant in these affairs. The Chronicle of James the Conqueror also uses &#39;Spain&#39; on numerous occasions - &quot;My father was the most bounteous king there ever was in Spain&quot; (though unlike with Muntaner I haven&#39;t checked the Catalan).<br /><br />The equivalent is Dante&#39;s references to Italy which was even more fragmented and perhaps to Germany which although largely equivalent to the Empire was still more of a geographical term than a political reality.<br /><br />I appreciate that for foreigners to use terms which are inexact must be exasperating for you. In the UK we have the opposite problem with outsiders (and many natives) using &#39;England&#39; to refer to the whole of Britain and/or the UK.Swampsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post-18888168892892791482011-08-05T09:11:27.073+01:002011-08-05T09:11:27.073+01:00@ Swampster (sorry for the long comment): Nice blo...@ Swampster (sorry for the long comment):<br />Nice blog, but you have several things utterly wrong. I&#39;ll refer to the posts which appeared linked from the TMP page, those with the label &quot;Aragon&quot; (you should add the label Catalonia, you&#39;ll see why):<br />First, when you refer to the medieval Iberian Peninsula, you should not name it as &quot;Spain&quot;, because plainly it did not exist. There were Castile, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, etc.<br />Second, although official historiography uses the term &quot;Aragon&quot; or &quot;Crown of Aragon&quot;, there was no such state but a loose confederation of states which all had the Count of Barcelona and King of Aragon and Valencia as their head of state-ruler. So no Aragonese term for the almughavars, who were in all respect to reality a Catalan army, hence why they adopted the name of Catalan Grand Company. In fact Catalans were not Aragonese by any means, and definitely not Spanish. There were lots of non catalans in the almughavars of course, but Catalans were the most numerous. Catalonia was, demographically, politically and economically the main player in the Catalanoaragonese Confederation (a denomination much more in accord with reality as it was an association of two cultures from which originated the inhabitants of the territories, each with its own language and institutions). The almughavars used several war cries, being &quot;Desperta Ferro!&quot; (Awake Iron!) by far most common, but &quot;Catalunya!&quot; (Catalonia!) and &quot;Aragó!&quot; (Aragon!)&quot; being common too. Note they used the Catalan language in their cries (a good clue on their main procedence and the preeminence of Catalans in the Company and the army in general). And so it should be at most a Catalanoaragonese-Sicilian force if not a Catalan-Sicilian one (by strength in its composition).<br />Third, the kings ruled the Confederation in virtue of their title as Counts of Barcelona. Even if they listed &quot;king&quot; first by hierarchical precedence, they were kings because they were counts and not the other way. So their right naming should be Peter II, III of Aragon... For example.<br />Fourth, pictures with Catalan or Aragonese people should not be labelled as Spanish. For example, you have one such example where several Catalan nobles can be seen: the Montcada (red background with yellow balls, forgive my lack of knowledge about heraldry) or the Cabrera or Cervelló (a black/dark goat/derr on yellow background). They should not be identified with the Spanish (Castilian really), against whom they fought.<br />Fifth and last, just for your information, your efforts are kindly appreciated; I&#39;m just making such remarks as Catalan history has been willingly overshadowed and infravalorated to enhance the &quot;Spanish&quot; component but this only hurts the truth. Modern historians have rediscovered the vast wealth of documents the Catalan institutions generated (being almost a parliamentary monarchy, there was the tendency to record everything) and reality surfaces inevitably. I find it&#39;s a bit of a duty for conscious, history loving Catalans to help uncover the truth and spread fairness wherever we can. And so I make this comment, for the sake of completeness so you can investigate a little further and make precise statements. Respect for a culture, even if it&#39;s from a little nation, is always welcome and a sign of benevolence and justice. At your disposition.<br />P.S.: I leave two links:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia (for a much simplified; you should go to the next one and put it into the Google translator Catalan-English)<br />http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist%C3%B2ria_de_Catalunya (or just click on the Catalan version of the page in English)Salvadorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07409903918107193431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post-49131840274434639922009-09-01T10:14:35.369+01:002009-09-01T10:14:35.369+01:00I&#39;m well on the way to being able to field Ang...I&#39;m well on the way to being able to field Angevin and Aragonese-Sicilian forces.<br />As a campaign, the war is largely naval and siege based with few decent sized land battles. I may try playing Falconaria some time.Swampsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273339036868534074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1636347795968499033.post-18810761518800670182009-09-01T09:32:22.486+01:002009-09-01T09:32:22.486+01:00Are you planning to do the Sicilian Vespers?Are you planning to do the Sicilian Vespers?Donoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03575126069082006284noreply@blogger.com