Tuesday, April 04, 2006

Dad vs. Mr. Mom







But recently I’ve started to wonder, is that number misleading?













Elizabeth said...

Interesting post. As a working mom (whose husband is home with the kids), I worry that your definition of "mom" implies that working moms -- whether the kids are in day care or with dad -- aren't "real moms."

Stephen (aka Tragula) said...

Ha ha. I've done the four dads alone at a playground routine over here in NYC. Except we mostly ignored each other. East coast reserve I suppose.

I agree that economics is driving the SAHD cultural evolution. But I've been surprised by how often who stays home is really the parent who wants it more. People will often position themselves economically based on their goals, rather than the other way around. It becomes a chicken/egg thing.

I agree with you about Mr. Mom. I refuse to be sensitive about silly stuff like that. And I think the Queer metaphor is perfect. It has often crossed my mind that there are many parallels. Such as coming out to your folks, and being "proud" of your choices.

Good blog so far, with very honest writing.

Jeremy Adam Smith said...

Elizabeth: I take your worry seriously; my point might be useful in one context and completely misguided in another. Are working moms "Ms. Dads"? Ugh. Sounds awful, politically and aesthetically, although I'll need to think more about why that should be the case. As far as men go, the whole queer/Mr. Mom thing is useful because it's gets beyond binary gender (nosediving dangerously close to grad school here! must...pull... up!) and establishes some continuity/solidarity with anyone who is living outside of gender roles that have been deemed essential to biology. But if you take the same standard and apply it to working moms, it stops being liberating.

Stephen said...

Elizabeth, I think you misconstruing the subtle irony with which Jeremy is owning the label Mr. Mom.

Even very progressive minded people like yourself can get trapped in the traditional gender paradigm. When there is no such thing as a "real mom" or a "real dad". Mom is just a word we use for female parent. Anyone who associates the word mom with nurturing is a little bit sexist. What better way to poke fun of them than to mocking use the traditional labels.

I like that Ms. Dad thing. I sometimes remind my wife that she needs to position herself in the workplace as a dad, and not with the other working moms. Who, truth be told, often don't take their jobs as seriously. Many of them don't have to, because they can quit whenever they like and just do freelance without worrying about the repercussions.

Elizabeth said...

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I wrote a bit more about the topic on my blog.

By the way, my guess is that the 2 million figure comes from a somewhat out of date Census report called "My daddy takes care of me," which found that fathers were the primary caretakers for 1.9 million preschool children.


Helen H said...

Excuse me, Stephen? I know many working moms. None of them can afford not to take their jobs seriously.

Have you looked at the economy in the last five years? Husbands/fathers are just as likely as wives/mothers to get the lay off ax. Do you know anything about the divorce rate and who's long term income is more likely to nosedive? Both drop initially, men's tends to recover more quickly.

PARENTS take care of their children. Moms and Dads. This Mr. Mom/Ms. Dad terminology is not amusing or acceptable. Mr Mom was not funny when it came out and is less so now. Fathers who take care of their children are not moms. Mom does not equate to the nurturer. Elizabeth is right in her concern.

mark said...

J -- i have some comments, but no time. just wanted to wish you a happy 57th birthday or whatever it is.


stephen said...

I only said AS seriously.

And I was only speaking from my own personal experience on that, clearly. My wife works as a book designer, and her female colleagues usually have spouses in much more lucrative fields. The moms are usually more ambivalent than the dads about working in the first place. It's also a profession that lends itself well to freelance, provided a spouse has the health insurance covered.

Very often a second income in publishing barely covers the cost of childcare in an expensive place like NYC. Which is even more disincentive for them to work.

Jeremy Adam Smith said...

It was a number-crunching analysis of income vs. childcare that caused us to conclude that it wouldn't pay for both of us to work full-time. Our exact arrangement emerged from the realization that I could make almost as much money as a part-time freelancer. It was, however, very hard to leave the security of a full-time job with benefits -- not to mention the well-defined role of full-time working dad.

Helen, I think we all agree that it's parents who take care of children. But you might be ignoring the degree to which caregiving is defined popularly as something done by moms and the alienation this breeds among stay at home dads -- for example, the magazine "Parenting", and all similar magazines, are transparently directed toward moms.


This statement provoked a fascinating discussion thread on Elizabeth's blog: http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2006/04/parenting_and_m.html. Check it out.

Helen H said...

i've been a damn good mother for 22 years. I have almost always been the full time with benitfits parent. Only for 2 years was I the full time back in school for the 2nd degree parent.

I am not a damn good father. That would be my husband who stayed home with our infant son and his 3 year old sister. Eighteen years ago.

You children need to wake up.

The terminology you use can knock us backwards.

Jeremy Adam Smith said...

I moderate comments, and I hesitated before allowing Helen H.'s comment, above, to be posted. This dialogue obviously touched a nerve with her; I'm concerned that it could degenerate into a flame war. To anyone listening who might want to respond, I urge restraint, civility, and thoughtfulness.

However, I decided to post it, as evidence of the degree of discomfort and uncertainty that permeates issues of gender identity, especially across generations, class, culture, and geography (is that everything? not by a long shot). Life in genderbending San Francisco gives rise to expectations and identities that might seem completely alien to those outside it (e.g., people in SF really are mystified as to why gay marriage is a big deal); likewise, as difficult as things are now, I won't even pretend to understand what it was like to embrace noncomformist family roles one, two, three, four decades ago -- well, I can try. That's all any of us can do.

Helen H said...

I noticed the lag. The tone was intintionally chosen to illistrate the importance of the terms we use. Clearly, you noticed when it was blatent and hit squarely.

alex said...

It is ironic that the first written instance I saw of the notion that Jeremy writes about -- that he is "mothering" Liko -- was from an unlikely quarter: Some "fathers' rights" group I saw rallying somewhere years ago. One of the allegedly aggrieved fathers held a sign that said "mother is a verb." Now there's an interesting notion, and one that comports with what our esteemed blog author is saying. But of course it's enormously culturally specific. What tasks or roles or responsibilities are assigned to mothers vs to fathers depends on time, place, culture, class, economics, the whole ball of wax. And even varies from family to family. In my own family, my father did a much greater share of what were considered mothering tasks, and my mother pursued a high-powered career at a time when women were still fairly absent in her field. Neither was a stay-at-home parent and both worked full time (or more), all made possible by the upper-middle class ability to afford ample childcare. It certainly shaped my own perception of fathering, and mothering, into what were once nontraditional but are now commonplace forms. Ironically, I think that the shift towards men doing more (note I say more, but not enough, since all evidence points to men still not doing their share) -- more parenting, more cleaning, more cooking, more childcare has been driven by economic necessity than by some sea-change in how Americans view gender roles and family responsibility. It is simply no longer possible for most families to survive on one income, so more women have had to enter the workforce. Now, thanks to the women's movement, they are able to, but thanks to 20+ years of Republican policies and consolidation of wealth and income, they have had to -- quite a catch-22. So men in straight households have kinda had no choice but to adjust and do more. So perhaps necessity is the "mother" of not just invention but of social change as well.

Mom101 said...

Thanks for pointing me the way here (however indirectly--and humbly) and yes, it's a very interesting and thoughtful discussion which I appreciate.

I suppose it should be possible for us each to appreciate both the masculine and feminine in ourselves without changing our labels. Biologically I understand that women are traditionally the nurturers and men, the hunter/gatherers. But to call any stay at home parent "the mom," by default that makes the working parent the dad. I don't want to be the dad! And my partner doesn't want to be the mom. He too uses the term Mr. Mom at times, but with a certain level of self-deprecation, and generally when he's feeling a bit insecure about his position. The only way to overcome that is to start making it okay to stay home, whoever you are.

And to Stephen's comment, I tend to allign myself with the all the working parents in the workplace. In ways I'm more like the men in that if I don't work, we starve. In ways I'm more like the women in that I often feel shitty for coming home every night after the baby's asleep. I'm glad to have the full spectrum with whom to commiserate--and grab margaritas after at tough week at the office.

Chad said...

I find it amazing you've ran into other fathers taking intest in their kids life at all. I live in Indiana and I've been a stay at home dad for 5 years. I had a florishing Medical marketing degree paying me a very healthy six figures a year. My wife came in one day and I could tell by the look on her face, she was pregnant. She told me she wanted to be a stay at home mom and I agreed 100%.

After 6 months she couldn't handle the loss of identity anymore. So, she asked me if I'd stay home for a year or so until our youngest was old enough to go to daycare. I agreed and she picked up a job as a nurse paying less but equal money. Two kids later, for a total of three kids, I'm still here.

I find most people in my community consider me "unemployed" and don't consider what I do to be anything more than me being lazy. I've been told by many people that I'm trying to be a "mom" and they denote the fact that I must be a homosexual. I find that the most amusing. Because I cook, clean, love my children, take them to get culture, cloth shop, grocery shop and be a good husband, I must be gay... However they wrap that around thier head, how knows.

Now, after going on really close to 6 years of doing this, I'm getting stir crazy. I wanted to get a job, but my wife is like a 50's husband. I'm not allowed to get a job until my "job is done here" meaning my youngest hits 1st grade (5 more years). at any rate, I found your blog interesting and its awesome to see other men in a somewhat similar situation.

Jeremy Adam Smith said...

Thanks for stopping by, Chad. This is a great comment.