5 31AUCII 4. Mr. PONSONBY observed, that ant of these= Petitions there were ?t) of them aosinst the Property Tax. air J. anew presented a Petition from Farriugdon Within; as did Mr. Baring one from Dorking, in Surrey. The Petitions were then read and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. VANSITTART MOW'S! ele Order of the Day tar the House going into a Committee of Supply. lord J. Ruescat, opposed the going into a Committee; he tame down for that purpose ; bat if his purpose had not been so, he shuuld, from the great uunther of Petitiorme presented aeaiust the Tax on Property, have felt it his flute to object to the vote. The time might come when it would be necessary, in opposition to the principles of the Conatitution, to keep up a large standing army, and an extended navy, but then the liberties of the country would be gime; he therefore should op pose the estitnatig. It formerly had been said by Ministers, that it was requiella to keep a large establishment to cane on the war; now, they pretended a large military eitablishment was uecessary, not to carry on the war, but to preserve the peace.— (ilea , ,kear.)—W hat must then have been the glorious result of so lime a war, which prodnced in Ministers a convic t• that they could not secure a state of tranquillity. The Noble Lord concluded by opposing the estimate, being referr. ad to a Committee, meaning to follow it up, if successful, by an Address tar a more reduced eetablishmeut. Mr. Lewis considered the question as one affecting the the country gentlemen, who, on all occasions, had rallied round the Throne. lie called on them, therefore, to think for them selves, and decide fairly on what are the means of the country to support the present proposed enlarged establishment. He wished them to recur to the time of King William, when the Country Gentlemen tore from that Monarch (who was, as it were, the seal of the Constitution) his Dutch Guards, who were his best friends in t h e war. He cared not who were Ministers, but thought that the present Ministers had taken a false view of the means and danger of the country. If Gentle men would look at the permanent theca now 40 minim's, why the increased military establishment won't' be e 0 millions more, making a permanent Peace Revenue of CIO millions. Could the country bear it? He was afraid that we were at the end of tax ation.—The distresses of the country, he believed, were of a nature of which Ministers were not aware. In respect to the danger to be apprehended, there could be no danger from Prance ; her army was disbanded. Nor could he see the ne eessity of keeping so large an army at home, when we had one in France to so large an amount. He conteuded, that the Islands did not require garrisons to the extent which Ministers proposed to station in them; and expressed an opinion, that the lonian Islands would be kept in perfect security with leoo men, instead of 4000, as now proposed. But with respect to the West India Islands, the amount of 14,000 men was infinitely beyond the 1111 l titter necessary. lie noticed the situation of Ire land, which he regretted much, and lamented the unhappy course pursued towards that country. He hoped that some alteration would be made in the system of administering the Itiovarnment there. He understood that it was propeeed to vote 100,000 men for the Local Militia. This he thought a vote higlay objectionable. Mr. Pouffe observed, that the most convenient mode of die cussing the subject weuld have been in the Committee. He was grad, however, it had been brought under discussion in any way; fur it was right that the country should know that the Government were pursuing a proper course; and, before the debate was concluded, Gentlemen would be convinced of the fact.—He apprehended that at this time of day there was no dispute about having a standing army. The vast surface we cover over the globe required a large one. At the same time, he would admit the propriety of a legal anti constitutional jealousy of a standing army in the hands of the Crown; but that jealousy must depend on circumstances, as arising from the sense of 'auger, or apprehension of it. He was deposed to allow that it must be under civil contrunt—that of the Par liament. It was so—and that controul extended to the foreign army. With respect to the army in general, it was well known that the Crown at any time might receive a check from Parlia ment, by the refusal of a Supply. lint looking to the increased population and wealth of the country—(/fear.)—Gentlemen might object to the word; but, though there were distresses, there was wealth enough in the coindry. As to the jealousy, was it under these circumstances a cause for jealousy, that there should be an establishment of 8 or 9000 men more than there were 26 years ago? Did Gentlemen wish to disaand the whole army, and turn the grenadiers into scavengers and dust men? It was useless to make comparisons with ancient es tablishments. All former peace establishment' were badly constructed; and he believed that we owed some of the wars to such cultedations a-at least some of the reverses of them. He instanced the case of the French fleet of 20 sail, in 1734, anchoring rimier Dungeness; at which time we had only 18,000 urea in urns, and no militia. He contended, that it was not prudent to rely on the appearance of security, but to be pre pared for great events; so that whut is at stake may not be lost. The Right Hon. Gentleman deuicd that the present estimates were for a permanent peace establishment; they were only for one year, in consequence of existing circumstances. In re spect to the army in France, he justified the policy of that part of the establishment being maintained; besides, they were kept there at the expense of the French. This surely would not be an object of disapprobation to any gentleman, because if they were not there, this country would be obliged to continue t he 30,000 men on lialf-pay and other allowances. 'fie establish ment of 25,000 men in Ireland woul not, it was hoped, last long, but that the disturbances would soon cease. ahe object of his Majesty's Government is, to take off eight millions of Ins es, including the 3 per cent. on the Property-tax; so that, taking. every thine into consideration, the intention was to relieve tho Minimum; oldie people. The Right lion. Gentleman went over the nano in the estimates, and said, that not mine if the ex penses which lie enumerated was it pmsible for are couutry to do without. The total ainotint was 1,000,0001. and this not for • etaading army. But he looked forward to a reduction, when the dangem, or rather the military spiat had subsided. Our possessions being so very extended, we ought to be the better prepared for attack. The maintaining of 30 or 40,000 men, more or less, was of little consequence to a state like this.: bear, from* boas aides.)—Gould Members believe that it was any pleasure to Ministers to keep up a large force, if It were not necessary to perform the usual duty of the country. Mr. Buovotte at could not conceal his indignation at the calm way in which the lion. Gentleman had expressed such dangerous doctrines. It was not amended by his propagating these to be his own opinion% as a Member of the Home, aad not as one dins Majesty's Ministers. But he (Mr. U.) did con sider time Hen. Gentleman's speech as conveying time opinions of Minister'. lie would not Who* him in detail, but content himself with saying that he objected to the Speaker's leaving the Chair, because the result of that movement must be the de struction of the Constitution. Was it any reason for our lay ing aside our peaceable habits, and este:famine etanaiag armies, because the nations on time continent had become great military nations? Ile viewed with jealnusy the establishment liaightlwods, which must alter our 'asthma! charac THE NATIONAL REGISTER. ter; and he viewed also with jealousy the establishment of a aLlitary Association, tinder the li:winless WWe of a chub, which i I an illustriuns Naval Commander (Earl of St. Vincept,) held in I such abhorrence that he would not join it, considering it as a measure nut British. He was willing to give the army its . due praise and reward fur its glorious deeds; but he would have it disbanded, in order that it might not overturn Eirgland as well as itnimaparte. An Iton. Gentleman had said —" Was it to be believed, that the geutirmen of Eugland, officers of the ' army, would turn against the Liberties of their Country?"— How would such an appeal have heeit received in former times, even if Lurd Cadoe'an or Lord Peterboroueh (the very dower • of Whiggism), hod been proposed to coonnand a standing army? it was the spirit of the 11111 of Rights, that not a soldier more than was necessary should be kept up in time of pence. The Hoa. Genntleinan had said, that our paantation hail great ly increased; but was that then an argumeut, that we required the assistance amine soldieri? lie, for one, could not consent to separate the three great questions--the Treaties—the Peace Establishment and the Property-tax. They were all parts of one system to destroy the liberties of the people, or, at least, to make this country a complete military nation. This country nos never in a situation less to dread the aggressions of her enemies; and yet this was the period waen Itliiiisters chose to propose a military establishment never kept up in any firmer war. For in the seven years war, when we had defeated France on every side, our military establishment was one halt' less titan now. The increase of patronage in the army was also dangerous to the Constitution, by eivieg a great increase of power to the Crown. He hoped the House would take care not to sulTer this large addition to the power of the Crown ; and guard the people from any innovation on the Constitution ; and not consider the question of money and finance trilling, in comparison with first strippiug the people oftheirrights, and Ott n grinding them in their property. He implored the Noble Lord and flight Hon. Gentleman opposite not to be led away by majorities in that House often on their side, when the reason and talent were against them. ilut now the people were re solved nut to suffer any more encroachments on their rights and property. Out of doors a cry had been raise.) ; Mid if they did not hurry this subject throagh the House, they would have it brought to that House in su firm, and he trusted, so respectful language, that even the cool courege of the Noble Lord would not he able to resist it. And if there were an honest counsellor about the Prince, that man would tell him this is England, and not Germany; and that if any one wished to have whiskered hussars and Polish lancers, at an expense of six or eight millions inure a year, it must not be done in Eng land,—( Hear, Aear.) Limo PALMERSTONE said, the lion. Gent. bad dealt largely in declamation and general attack. lie had called out the House to refuse going into a Committee, where alone it could be proved that it was necessary to keep up the large standing farce which was proposed. The question now was, not one of danger to the Constitution, but one of finance altogether—a ipiestion whether, fur the purpose of getting rid of the income Tax a year or two, the Crown should now be compelled to give up our' colonies, those sources of our wealth, to withdraw our selves front the Continent, to confine ourselves to our own is land, to sacrifice our present high and commanding situation in Europe, and to become a second-rate power. The Noble Lord observed, that the charge of the Army was 8,900,0001.; of this 2,000,0001. was expended in pensions, &e. and could scarcely be said to be considered as belonging to the army. A further reduction of 1,00U,0001. might be looked to in the course of the present year. This would reduce the estimate to some thing less than 6,000,0001.; and, when it was considered that the pay of the soldier was nearly double since 1192, he thought Gentlemen could not contend that the proposed establishment very far exceeded former peace establishments. '1 he thriller consideration ot' the subject was then adjourned till the next day.—Aikjunrued at half-past one. TLESDA V, WES, 27. . _ Petitions were presented from tiiueardine, Whitechapf..l, Oxfordshire, Christchurch (Mhtillesex), Wautage, Tavistock, nilton, York, Alcithyr-Tydvil, Royston and its vicinity, and several ollizr places, against the Tax on Property. . _ Pi:OM:ATV TAX. Mr. Ma nnocxs presented a petition fsom Boston, in Liu. colushire, complaining of the difficulties under which they labour on account of the Property-tax, and praying its repeat. The Hon. Member stated the general distress of the Petitioners, and asked the following questions of the Bight lion. Gentle man a laudlord receives no rent, is he liable to the Tax? If a tenant makes no profits' is lie also liable ? uud, is the Tax to last tor one or two years, or more ?—No answer was given. JIr,METHULN observed, that there did not appear any dis position ou the part of Ministers to modify the Tax; which was, iu fact, nut a tax upon income, but one upon uo income at all. He should be glad to know, as the country was so greatly distressed, where the labourer was to find work, or the pauper bread? He should vote against the Tax, because he considered it a tax peculiarly pressiug upuu that description of persons already overburthened. Mt. Bnounnast lamented that no answer was given by Mi nisters to tile questions of his liuu. Fr hold ; they were, 413 had been well observed on a former night, " stricken with dumb ness." however, as that was really their infirmity, and they could not, or would not answer, he begged to suggest to them not to hurry the question through the House. He warned them agaiust neglecting the voice; of the nation, which he believed they dared not neglect. He would use all the forms which the law authorised, to preveut those Hight Hon. Gentlemen from stemming Lind stiffing the voice of the people; and therefore he gave their notice, that upois all uceasions vvheit the tax Caine tOlVikiFti he Should endeavour to convince the House that the people ought to be lieurd.—(Hrar, hear.) Mr. VassiTTAKT expressed his 'surprise at the declaration of the Hum Gentleman, of thrhwiiig impediments iii the a dy of the business of the House; be did not tear the threat of the Hon. Geut. nor would he be deterred from pursuing his duty. In respect to the accusation of not answering the questions put -to bins, he only waited till the Petition was breugut up in the regular way to give the answer. As to the first—whether any modifications would be made, be wished to observe, that the modifications could only take place in the Gonunittee upon the Bill, where uuy suggestions would receive the deliberate in vestigation of the whole House; he should nut then be found ' wanting in his duty, iu attending to any modifications which might SCC:II necessary. As to the inteipos.tion of delay, he w :shed to give all possible time for consider:cant ; Ind what time would there be, as the Bill most pass before April, of con sidering fully the question, if it a as to be deterred tilt the mid dl of March. But these were questions proper for the Com mittee. He had intruded to propose that the tax should con tinue for two years, mid not beyond; it being his hope and wish that its duration should thou terminate. Gentlemen had said, that the country was endangered by the tax—that lie must deity ; the tax had not placed the country in danger, but the misrepretentatitins of its tendency which had gone forth, foal especially that gross one, namely, that the faith of Parliament bad been pledged for its ceasing with the war.—(!hear, tear.) The feet was not so ; the faith of Parliament had never bee* to pledged, and the Bill was expressly framed with that vie* fur the words " no longer;' inserted in the Acts of 1803 and were onlittud in the Bill of last Session.—( Loral cries of !bar, hair.) Mr. 31truttex declared that he objected to the tax on ac count of its inquisitorial tendency. Sir S. Rom (Lev could not listed to the reason assigned by the Right Han. Gentleman for not giving more time to consider the tax, because it expired on the 11th of April, without ex pressing his vease of the indecency of calling the Parliament together at so late a period ; which could have been for no other reason than to prevent the representative.; from stating to their constitimate their (minium of the tax. Ministers knew the distresses of the country at the end of the last session; and were they not bound in candour to have told the country that the tax was to be a permanent one, but they had deceived the country. The people had submitted, as a war tax, to destroy the power of Buonapnrte. The war concluded with tae '.(estrum tion of that power ; and now it comes out (and the troth could. not be too much impressed on the House and the public) that the tax was voted to keep up a large military establishment to support Louis XVIII. anal his family on the throne of France, and not fur British objects. Let it be recollected, tint ao large a standing army as that now proposed could not be supported without depriving seine persons of the comforts, but many more of the very necessaries of life. The object was, to sup port a monarch who had violated the liberty of the Press, and of elections in Vrance, and connived at the persecutions of the Protestants.—'flue Hun. and Learned Gentleman in illustration of the latter assertion, stated, that in the department of the Gard, all the vilest crimes, even murder, had not been punished by the Government—aoo persons haul been muttered in that departmcat, 210 houses burnt, of which 150 houses were at falsities; Su women of the highest reepectability had been scourged and hunted in the public streets, eight of whom had died under the torture.—(//egr,heae.)—Nuitwithetanding all this, had one criminal suffered? The Govermnent areeered to disregard the c.oidurt of the criminal, and to support covert ly a kind of religious oppression. Wes it so in }:naland during the riots of 1;a0, when the nob destroyed the property of the Catholics? On the contrary, did ,not the British Government prosecute to death the delinquent% and institute proceedings against the Lord Mayor of London for his cowardice in not repressing the outrageous conduct of the mob ? The Gavern nieut of France were supine with respect to the Prefect of Nismee, who still remained at the head of the Government. It was true, that a Proclamation had been issued by the King, stating, that an atrocious crime had been committed in the De partment of the Garde, in respect to the person of Gen. La garde. Why! instead of one crime, hundreds had been con:- mined, and the Government knew the fact. The assassin of Lagarde was known; he was one Guassay, a volunteer serjeant, as Ito might be cosily taken, and yet the Prefect haul made a declaration that lie was not kuown. These were some uf the strong reasons why ha would not support a tax which went to maintain an army merely for the purpose of supporting on time throne a family with opiniuus rind' actions such as he bad des seethed. Mr. PoNSONBV contended, that if the words " no longer" meant nothing, why did the Right Hon. Gentleman leave them out of the Bill ? But the assurances of time Right lion. Gentle man, and his promises and hopes, were delusive, and misled the public. He stated last year, that the Batik Restriction would expire this year, but it had been continued ; and he could tell him, that his predictions were idle. The Property 'faa would not expire at the end of two years—it would be entailed ou the nation in order to support Ministers in their extravagant esta blishments. air. BRAND maintained that the Ministers, perhaps without intendiug it, had deceived the public; and every Gentleman who consented to vete for the Tax had been deluded by the Guverement to deceive their Constituents. Lord Fotasaotta observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to flint the doors against the voice of the people. lie detanuied Gentlemen on his side of the !Rome from the impu tation of misrepresentation. Every person who could think and feel absolutely detested the tax; they had met, and in the constitutional way, by Petition, but Ministers wished to stifle the national voice. Mr. Ca tcamar was compelled to state (having voted for the continuance of the tax tin• one year), that it was under the idea it wits to continue for that titan and no longer. His believed the majority of the house thought the same. It was therefore deliaave in the Right Hon. Geutlentan,whoni he always hitherto thought a plain-dealing emit, to come forward with his Bill in his 'xact now, and say the words " no longer," were left out ua pinvose.--(llcar, hscir.)—Viliy was not he, at the time lre culled for the vote, (audid enough to tell the House so; bin in stead of so doing, he hail deceived him, and the nation in ge liter.) Mr. 'fitith EV wished to remind the Right Hon. Gentlemar, as hen he was talking of inconvenience in net passing the Act before the sth ut' April, that on turning Li the original Act he found that it passed on the nth of August 1503.-4 ihar, hear.) Mr.VANsITTAUT observed, that it the lion. Gentleman had been misled by him, it was without any inteetion. No such words as its vontinnance fur one year only had bitten front his lips, lie had on two occasions, inately, ou the 2etti of Fe bruary ; and on soother, expressed his hopes that it might not continue tier more than one year. Ile had then stated a case of necessity, which he should has c reconree to low ; and if an those grounds the (louse should tint consider the tax as justitiaLlc, ke would not press it.--(/lear, hear.) Sir ie. Be itntrr could not help contratulating the country on the encouragement which the Chencenor of the Exchequer bad Maul out of persevering, which it they did, he had no doubt would obtain then] the object of their desire. The Hon. Baronet stated a case of a landlord, in which it was shewn to the Cummissieners that he derived no rents or profits from the land, yet he was ordered to pay the Property-tax. lie knew atiother instance of a clergyman with an iliCql?le worth 10001. a year, who this year received only 1 eat. rents, and was assess ed 1001. and further to the Poor's Rates 1501. These sums las was compelled to pan—(/lear, !scar. )—I t haul been said that the people had been misled by the Right Hon. Gent.; and gentlemen had complained of being entrapped to vote for the measure as a temporary one; nun, for his part, lie had nevex been daveived by the Right lion. Gent.. for he nes cr believed any other story than that the naivety-tax was intended to be a permanent. measnre.—(kaar, hoar,)--hint the Right Hon. Gent. had talked of necessity—that was the plea of Charles 1. when he demauded shipationey. Ile alladed to the suits or extents issued front the Exchequer, to the automat of 30 'Minolta, which was a disgrace to the country. Why, lie asked, slid not the Government make use of that money collected and lying useless, Uhile the suitors or claimants were preferring their claims, which they might uever get. 'lle mita:limed di. a blends was another source of re lief. Ads citing to the battle of ti aterloo, lie euid, thst the battle had turned t h e right way, and Ministers like gamesters at cards, when their' last stake was in baud, cried out, "double or quits," they idaytd deep,