ottr+ -~ r!-• - JdOr JP)__ atio at" tat • •44. - 6. - - "". Our Wm, dronatttution, ant •Kainss. No. I A6s.—Vor.. XIII.] SUNDAY, SEPTEMBiIt 3, 18f20. [Pews 94d. PROCEEDINGS AGAINST HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN. HOUSE OF LORDS. MONDAY, AVO. 28. The Lords were called over at ten o'clock. The Earl of Scarborough was unable to attend in consequence of illums.—The Earl of Bridgwater was in a similar situ ation. A very long debate ensued oa the question of allowing the Queen's Counsel to tross-examine witnesses at first, and afterwards have the privilege of recalling them. Some Peers were opposed Wills perraissidn, but the ma jority were In favour ail. In the end, Counsel baring presented themselves at the Bar, The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that he had it in command from the House to inform them, that it having been proposed that the House should discharge the order made on Saturda3, for hearing them on the mode of pro ceeding which was then adopted, and that the Counsel for her Majesty should now proceed with the cross-examina- Con of the witness last before the Honse in the usual way; under this understanding, that they might afterwards apply to have the whom re-examined, in consequenceof any facts and circumstances coining to their knowledge not presently known. His Lordship bad it now also in command from the House to say, that if the Counsel for the interests of her Majesty had any objection to make to this course of proceeding, the House were ready to hear them. Mr. BROUGHAM now commenced one of the most eloquent and argumentative speeches which has yet been made in support of the case for the Queen. The learned Counsel said, that he might have felt under some difficulty had he been called upon -to state any course of proceeding which was less ohjectienable, or liable to fewer exceptions than that now proposed to be followed by their Lord ships ; but that the difficulty was not great when he was called upon to say whether any objections existed to that course of proceeding, and what those objections were. He would tint of all beg leave to say, on the part of her Majesty's Counsel, in vindication of their interposing any objection at. ail, that whatever diffienify existed in the case, the difficulty was none of their making. Whatever difficulties there were, be they many or few—whatever obstacles now presented themselves, be they great or email, or even insaromantable—they did not arise front any fault on the part of her Majesty's advisers. 'rite party patroniaiug the Bill—his Majesty's Attorney General— lied had his owl way in every thing. The Counsel for her Majesty bad made many objections to the roam , of proceeding followed, but it had always seemed good to the wisdom and justice of their Lordships to reject every suggestion of theirs, and to adopt the course proposed by their opponents. If, after having done so, the House found themselves in any difficulty, he was entitled to say, that that difficulty bad arisen from rejecting the Inpplica- Cons made on the part of her Majesty ; and this it was which formed the strongest reason he could possibly urge against the course of proceeding now proposed to be fol lowed. It was a most cogent reason why an extraordinary indulgence should be granted to the Counsel fur her Majesty, that they bed been thwarted in every attempt they had mate to obtain whatever was ordinarily allowed in all cases, whether civil or criminal!—(Hear, Steer!) — They had been denied what was granted in every case, end therefore it was that they claimed intlulgencies which were called fur in no other case. Their Lordships had refitted a list of witnesses, without her Majesty's Counsel ever having been heard in support of the dem sied for it-- the decision was suede on A motion by one of their Lord ships' own nunthei. But what was still more extraordi nary, their Lordships had refused a specification of the pieces where the alleged acts of criminality had taken place. In a case of High Treason the indictment would have stated the county where it would he proved the crime was committed t but here the venue has spread over three emitters of the globe—Europe, Asia, end Affirm? In some one or other of the empires, kingdoms, provibees, cities, ports, towns, comitries, inhabited and neintabited wit:armrests*, rivers, seas, &c. of the said three limners of the earth.—This it wis which formed the moot extraordinary of all the peculiarities in this extraordinary proceeding. The ',arty accused tos nut when or where the crime with which she is charge,l is alleged to have been committed. This was the defeece of itinocence,not of guilt. If there were guilt, a knowledge rl this places might exist, and, of comae, an idea of the particular nature of the charges would suggest itself. But because the accused was not in those places, and !moans.• she was istilocent, n+ dm could be foamed as to the persons of th e witnesses, or the places of ahavh they spoke. Upon the demon! their Lordships had rl.o de cided without hearing Counsel ; and, not withstanding that peculiarity of her Majesty's situation, and the difficulties %f eel the Bill of Paii.s dad Penalties heaped upon her, advB " a g i s were diesel to her. Her Alajesty's Cutrustl hal *sutured to couelude that they had obtained the rimming of their Lordships' order that in lien of the advantages denied, they were to have certain advantages peculiar to the ease, devised by the wisdom and justice of their Limdships, to meet the diffi culties in which their Lordships' justice and wisdom had placed her. It was little thought by bee Majesty's Coun• gel, that when those advantages came to be sifted, they would be found to be the comma advantages allowed in all courts of justice, as matter of indisputable right.—ln the case of the Duchess of Nerfelk, all the advantages here denied were granted. Tim Duke was called epos to state the periods and places whoa sad where the acts were said to have been committed. Her Proctor attended at the bar of the House. On the 14th Amery an order was made by their Lordships upon the Doke to specify the places and witnesses. ()o the 14111, Use specification was objected to, as of too general a austere. The same day the objection was answered, and a more particular specific,- time ordered. This leading case was that to which their Lordships should look for a guidance is their proceedings. To say that it was no authority was childish sporting.— Upon that fattens case, three or four witnesses swore di rectly to the fact of adultery; but, sotwithstanding those depositions (so material was the eress-examination, not one word of which could have been given, except a spe cification of witnesses had been supplied, the evidence was discredited, and their Lordships threw out the Dill.) How monstrous and ,crying ap hijestice was it to pretend to found a denial of the advantages seaght for open the practice of the Courts of Law! Mach was the way in which they were desired to look lute the Courts of West minster. Was the evidence to go forth to the Public basely and malignantly inisrepreseeted? guppose a wit ' nem goes through a fair examination. such as we may say the first witness underwent, yet ender what striking dis advantages does a Counsel labour in the cross-eaamina. lion, who, Instil that moment, was leonine( his existence —name—place of residence—or. the facts that lie was called on to prove. If their Lordships bad allowed a list of witnesses, and a specification of ibe places where the crime was alleged to have bees committed, mid had granted the two months delay *eked by the Counsel for her Majesty, instead of sufferiog the charges to go forth, then they (the Counsel) would have bad no difficulty, our would they have asked for any delay. To their Lord ships, however, it seemed good to Mt otherwise. Did Noble Lords believe that there was snob virtue in Counsel, or such magic in the dress they were, that the moment a witness comes and states any thing, the Counsel may be enabled from his appearance to lima what he is, or who thee bespeaks the truth or uot? Oue laJury in the present ease was, that all the examinations owes, side were per mitted to go fora' and poison She ..gsg* Baud, and that the Judges in this tribunal mixed inffiltely more with the Public than in ordinary saxes. 'g Suppose,_ said the Learned Counsel, that a month hence at is discovered that A. B. a witness, has received a sum of tummy for , swearing against the Queen, nay, that the condition of his receiving that slim was the conviction of her Majesty, and Learued Lords knew how important it would be to prove such a fact, yet I cannot do this, according to law, until I have cross-examined the witness. t ask him, slid yon receive so and so? If be confesses, I gain my point t if he denies It, then I bring forward my proof." The Lserned Gentleman continued.—There were numberless ways to impeach the credibility of a witness, and that of counter declaration was very important. His Learned Friend* on' the opposite side, although, they appeared here for nobody, would not fail Aeizing the advantages of which they would thus become possessed. Was it ever known, since we had jest Judges and bold Counsel, that the sta ture of a cross mainivation should be stated berme it commenced ? It so it was a mockery to call it a cross e.xamivation ; it was asking for a permission which he (the Counsel) would disdain to accept as a favour, but demand as a right Irons a Court of Jastke ; and yet their Lordships appealed to those Coons, where no Judge would dare to refuse it. The Learned Counsel aunts. the astonishment of himself, and those who were ete , aged with him, was as great as their disappoiutment, t hat all the favourable anticipation raised by their Lordships should he too king—that the cap of hope 'humid be dashed from their lips—that they should labour under greater disad vantages than ever. Their Lordships compelled them to 'sear witnesses on subjects of which they were ignorant, mud facts alleged to have heeu committed all over the globe. When the House had Collie to this illonnened situation, the Counsel for the Queeu were allowed to state their objections to the proceedissg. The Learned Conti , SP! concluded a speech replete with force and elegance, Li imploring (heir Lordship. to pause before they pliniged into any new difficulty. Mr. DEN M N rose, and with much eloquence protested as C4IIIIIe.CI for the illustrious accused, agaionst a reverse of proceeding, which tended to make her Majesty's Couinel pasties against her, and to deprive her of the legitimate ,Jousids of defence. lie contended that there was no security for the Queen—tin security fur the meanest subject wee ' r.ty for any individual to abet august ameniblj, if a prism charged with an offence should be deprived of the right of a free, full, unrestricted, unshackled cruse-examitiatlon for it was on that the innocence of the accused often saate rially depended—(clear, hear, hear.)—lt was on legal points, and dry technicalities, that be was speaking I but he would appeal to their Lordships, and caution them to he aware how they laid down rules from 'finch lacy must after. w ardsdepart 6 and to beware how they stripped an suitor 'mute accused of all means of defending tkonselves flout an attack.—(Hear, hear.) —Here the Leotard Counsel stated the great advantages which a person accused of nigh treason 1111.4 ,, at'1l over het Majesty. There a lust oh Mllllt,ipell was tarnished, their rs side.ce niNitioned, tied fait, elisr 4 ed niaile , ier sfe ally. Tate not a single 1/1141/rs, CO/lid he eau. noted esetin time coutenied to mat lat. .1e need mit state how far this difrered from the reseal case. He ap. pealed to their Lordships, if any use of theta, or the ir relatives, were seen o I of a crime ut which the ivied revolts, stated to have been committed in Egypt or Greece, what other menus they would have of meeting it, but by a crax examination, after they had been enabl-d to emerging the character of the witnesses seise them 1 There was one important topic, and be thought it was cheaply one to which his Learned Friend had not adverted, namely, that her Ma jesty's Counsel had not been tarnished with copies of those depositions and papers, on which a Committee of their Lordships had suede a report, recommeeding the lestitiansa Matisse proceeding ag,ainn her Mejesiy. Hr ((Mr. Destimrs) distinctly made applinnims to their Lorehhips for these papers, nod that application had been refined. It was by baying an opportunity on is former occasion when her Man jesty's character was assailed. of coutrasting the prepara tory affidavits of certain persists' with the subsequent dept. sitions before the Lords Commissioners, and by that swam alone herd ajesty had been abk: to establish her innocence in the eyes of the world. But of that advantage her Ma jesty is now wholly deprived. II wasimpoosible not to per. ceive that several of their Lordships who had been in the Committee before alluded to, had put questiusis to wit. seises front information which they acquired from other sources than the public proceedings consequest on this Bill from sources to which the Counsel of her Majesty had been refined, and had bad no access—but to which they might to have the freest access, were it intended to do justice to her Melesty....(tleaa)—This was one strong resew, la ad dition to the many which bad been stated. why her Niajwity's Counsel should not be deprived of the mast full, ample, nod complete right of crop-examination, or of any opportmeity of bringing forward, sit any time, any information which' might throw a light on the case, or cast infamy on thine who bring infamous charges. However painful it might he, it would be better for the Interests of the public that her Ma. jeaty's Counsel should at mice withdraw' from the lengthy, than give their sanction to a course .f proceedings by which no real justice could be dune to the accused party. It meads indeed, be painful, but not so painful as to concur in a pro cecdiug by which, In the person of her Majesty, tine safety of every person in England would be compromised, and to which uuy of their Lordships might themselves fall victims hereafter. it did seem to him as if her Mejesty, by every fair means of defence being withdrawu frees her, were de. voted to destructioa—that her destractioa, at all haaards, was vowed and resolved upon. He fever would cease to insist for the most fell and unreserved right of cross-extusi. Nation on all OCCltlittlll. It would 'be better, a thausaud times that all the summer months of the wet ten years should be occupied in the toque s, Hum that the least injustice tipellld be dose to the Ilinutrioas Party in the case by soy 41141awity is the way of permed/a& of ifebidailmee iloweships were themselves the cause. The Learned Genders/se con. chided a mast impressive speech, by conjuring their Lordships to be guided alone by thine great principles— not of written but of anwritten law—principles which were eagravest the hearts of all men, lead by which every cultivated naiad was regulated. Sir It. Gifrord, the Attorney-General, and Sir J. Copley, the Solicitor-General. severally addressed their leirdebips against acrurding to her Majesty's Counsel, tie permission they requested, to whom Mr. BROUGHAM replied. He denied that be bed wil fully misquoted the Disko of Norfolk's ease. The Kitsx's Counsel bud comphinented their Lordships—he would admit injustice. They, however, seemed to have a witesepoly srf all the learning, of all the skill, nod those on the other side bad only an odd volume or two to guide Hein. With these he was content. Those on the side to be sure had Cob. belt's " State Trials;" he had only the folio volumes to cousult. The 46th and 47th pules of the 11th volume of their Lordships Journal. bore bins out. Twenty winnows were examined, according to those Journal.. and they were cross-examiaed its to bow they lived; some of them said they lived on their own means. The Dechess.accusdleg to the Journals,was furnished with a list of witnei s e s , th e i r names , places, ce.; and also with three days time no proceed. The Leassied Gentleman denied all this; he only consulted their Loidships Journals. and read from them. The times and pieces were also give., and if the Attorsey.Grueral had furnished him with similar cases, the ,ante were the fact s for though the prisoner did notceow some particulars till ' the Hill was found, Jet the prisoner knew in what covet, he was imprisoned, and that he was to be tried for suasething done within that aunty. Here the accusation run over a series of years and divers places in various quarters of the world; while a primmer was sot tried foe a felunium inter. course iu picking sundry pockets, but for souse specific anis. A good deal was said about precedents, and Bills of Pates sad Penalties were argued, as if they were regular lawful proceeduigs, instead of being eaceptsons to sill law. Tb ere was to be a general ride—but why was there to be a gene ral rule at the expense of the Queen, and not of the oppo site party ))_lt was said that it would be better for ten ' ;nifty persons to escape tban for woe innocriti person to Ire punished; but the contrary seemed to be acted upon. However, it was clear from the evidence, that foice would ' he used where bribes failed; and lie mooned that similar powers, foreign powers, would not be used to bring for. ward the Queen's wimesses. They might be end rui keep them away. These were some of the diffscalties which mete placed in their way. Lord LIVERPOOL moved, that the House de now adjourn. It would be better nut to inettlis before to morrow. He begged to add, that unlimited funds were placed at the disposal oilier Majesty, and where fusee w as used to compel witnesses to come over for the useriitinii, the same farce should be used regarding wan e • fur sots Queen.—(Hear.) • After ovine remarks froin Lord EItSKINE against the rate, wlie thii.i„iit it would be teitcr nl, acticti in till the Queee's cannst i en sled oc pr•part.i in proceed sou to the ca.', cue House adjourned at rise v'e:ot.k. ,•01 c.. : ::._ k .: s. .!.... 7 . \ ~ .••:, --_4‘."....4 ;':` l •`-ci~.