PARLMMENTART PRUCLEDIAGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 13. Counfel was heard in the Scotch Appeal Catfe the Carron Company v. Ogilvie. The further hearing was deferred till Monday. The Nottingham Eleeli,n Regulation Bill palled through the Contudttee, and the Report wad ordered for Monday. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Lord Kix°, agreeably to his notice on a pre ceding day, rofe to make a few obfervations on the Accounts which had been for feveral weeks lying on the Table. His Lordfhip declared, that, if any other Noble Lord had !hewn x difpofition to take up this bufinefs, he fhould willingly have given up the matter into his hands. He conlidered it important, however, that the Papers Ihould not lie on the Table unnoticed by the Houfe. They had already produced an impreflion which was to be regretted, as expeaations had been railed which , could never be realized. At fuch a critical period as the prefent, it was highly important that the people fhould not be deceived refpeaing the real fituation of the Country. It could promote no ufeful purpofe to circulate exaggerated flatenients of the amount of the Public Revenue. On the contrary, at a period when the people might be called on to make great facrifices, it was highly expedient that they fltotild know precifely in what fituation the exilling revenues of the country were to be conGdered. Having thus truly introduced the fubjeft, his Lordfliip entered into a feries of mi nute calculations to Thew that the flatements of the public revenue, as deferibed in the accounts on the table, were exaggerated to the amount of upwards of two millions. We avoid following him through there details, as the llatements were fo minute that accuracy could hardly be expeaed, and the general refult puts our Readers in poffeffion of the general fafl. Having fortified and illuftrated his Itatements, his Lordfhip with confolerable energy prefied the neceffity of inquiry into a fub jea at all times fo important ; but in peculiarly uneteßingly critical as was the prefent Rate of , the country. He took occafion to deliver his opinion of Minifters in very explicit terms. They were men who appeared to him totally unqualified to pref . :de over the deßinies of a great Empire, at a molt difficult and trying crifis. In every part of their adminiftration they had given clear indica tion of unfitnefs and incapacity for Government. —ln the management of the finances, they had evinced more than ordinary ignorance and incapa city. He fat down, by moving, that the financial accounts on the table fhould be referred to a Com mittee, to examine their nature and report an opi nion to the Home. Lord Aye x LAND, in a very perfpicuous fpeech, defended his previous Ratements. He thought that the motion of the Noble Lord was totally unne eeffary. The publicity given to the confideration of public accounts, in confequence of the arrange- 1 menu made by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), who with loch fingular ability prefided over the finances of the country, fuperfeded the need. fity of fuch a motion. It would be fufficient for every ufeful purpofe if the Noble Lord, following the fame plan adopted in the other Houle of Par liament, chafe the more contrary refolutions. His Lordliiip explained the motives which had chiefly induced him to with the matter to be brought un der difcuffion. So far back as the beginning of Fe bruary, papers on the fubjeft bad, on the motion of a Noble Lord oppofste, been laid on the table. On the 25th of March be had put into his hands a !tumult in which the financial fituation of the evaintry was mifreprefented in the groat! manner. •1 It was in order to do away the impreflion of thefe fiatements, and to put the people in this country, as well as the powers of the Continent, in poffeffion of our real fituation, of the magnitude of our re fources to meet any emergency. that he waked the matter to he confidered. Whatever fomeNoble Lords might fay to the contrary, it was undeni able that under our prefent fyftem of commercial regulations our commerce had increafed to a degree almoft beyond belief. Since the year 178 t, the !Nipping of this country had been doubled, and fusee 1789 it had been nearly tripled. His Lord fhip, before he fat down, adverted to fume opi nions he had expreffed refpetling the importance of revenues. He denied that he had ever main coined that revenue alone was neceffary in war.— He was finificiently aware that it was only one of the numerous means of fuccefs. Thefe means were. however. intimately conneded, and no wife man would under-rate the importance of financial refource, in fuflainiog a great national ftruggle. His Lordfhip fat down, by giving his vote plait the motion. The Earl of Motu role, and began by paying a very handfome compliment to the talents which the Noble Lord had evinced in bringing forward the prefent motion, and congratulated the country 11 on the benefits which might be hoped from the future exertion of them. It was not, he laid, that the Noble Lord had given a promife of fuperior abilities; he had aaually given a moR animated proof of them. His Lordthip then acknowledged that he was very glad the Noble Lord who fpoke lag bad Rated him to be the firft caufe of there accounts having been produced. He had, indeed, moved for that paper to which the Noble Lord bad alluded, and to which he had attributed fo many errors. He had been induced to move for it, in confequence of the fkatement given in ano ther place as to the finances of the country ; and to thew the fallacy of which, be moved for the paper alluded to. Nothing could, in his mind, be more mifchievous in its confequences, or more injurious to the etrential intereßs of a nation, fitu aced as this is at the prefent moment, than to hold forth a delofive And fallacious Ratement of the flouriflung Rate of its finances. It was rather in combent on us to look our tituaticn boldly in the face, and to tell the people what they icaliy end truly had to cape& 'I he Noble Lord w lin fp,:ke lift had laid, with coniderable exultati , :n, that our reyenne 141 t year amounted to upwards of 1 4 , 000,c^ , 01. and this he had ca lled a magnificent receipt. The Noble I And bRCICeTIMIIIy a rilla to ap. ply to it the term magnzticent, if he pleaftci fo todu; Lot then he Mould, at the fame time, confider Low slat receipt became fo very magnificent. Ile fhouid recolleet that it was owing to a ion and highly increafing fy ftcm of taxation, that our permanent revenue had become In truly magnificent ; and he (hould alto be ready to tell the people, that, ac cording to prefent appearances, it would be ne ceflary for them to look forward to more taxes than thole with which they are already burthened, to keep up this magnificent receipt. The furplus which it is pretended we have over and above the expenditure of the preterit year, was taken, he laid, upon a fuppofition of the continuance of Peace, and on a calculation of the reduCtions which may naturally be fuppofed to follow a Peace ella blifhment. In order to fupport this idea of the continuance of Peace, the Noble Lord, and thole who hold the fame financial doetrines with hi ' mull fuppofe that France would give up Holland I and the Netherlands ; that the would forfwear all interference with Switzerland ; that fire would give up her power over all Italy, which had been placed under her entire direCtion and controul ; and that the would alto forego the afcendancy the had gain ed over the Court of Spain, and proteft againfl any interference which might difturb the peace and tranquillity of Portugal. Intlead of this, the No ble Lord had exprefsly acknowledged, that from the time of figningthe treaty of Amiens to the pre lent Moment, France had never (hewn the flighteti difpofition towards conciliation. What then, afked the Noble Lord, became of the calculation made on reduftions applicable to a Peace Ella blithment ? How was it pollible that any confidence could be placed on fuch redunions ? That every calculation, relative to our Finances, ought to have been made on the certainty of a Peace Via blifhment, was molt true. When he gave his vote in favour of the Peace, he did it in confidence that it would be a real and permanent Peace ; in a thorough belief and full convidion that both coun tries had teen the folly, nay madnefs, of perfift ing in a defirative waste of blood and treafure, and that both, heartily wearied with the fruitlefs effedts of a fanguinary and uncertain conteft, had determined to make a peace which fhould be tatting, and which fhould, in fome meafure, repay the people of both countries for the firffer ings and misfortunes they had fo long and fo pa tiently endured. It was not potfible for him, or the other Noble Lords who had voted for the eace in the fame confidence that he h ad, to know that the Government of France, in No vember 'all, was not inclined to keep the peace. If they had, they would immediately have called on it for a change of condud, or have refilled to have given up the Cape, and thofe other places then in our poffeflina, which were to be ceded by us, as the lamellate of that Peace, which was not, nor could by any poll bility be of any value to this country, unlefs it was to be effeEtual and permanent. His Majefty's Minillers, how ever, were very differently &mated ; they mutt have known whether the Government of France was inclined to keep the peace or not, and if they fuppofed it was not, they certainly were highly culpaMe in making calculations founded on re duCtions, applicable only to a peace eftablifttment. 'They ought rather to have calculated the other way ; and inftead of holding out to the public the delufive appearance of having a confiderable furplus, over and above the expenditure need. Cary for the prefent year, they fhould have fairly and candidly told them their real fituation, and have (hewn them the necafity of making up their minds to the payment of further taxes, which it was highly probable the fluftuating events of the prefent day would render it indifpenfibly re quilite to call for. His Lordfltip lamented that no information had yet been given which could lead to any fixed opinion upon the fubjeft—all was at prefent doubt and uncertainty ; and in fech circumftances, that Houle and the Public thrll,' not be kept in a (late of delufion. For his parr, he was convinced, with the Noble Lord, who brought forward the motion, that in. f: ad of a furplus, there would be found a de ficit of upwards of two millions; and therefore the motion had his hearty fupport. Lord Garsviais, though agreeing in the ge neral argument of the Noble Lord who introduced the cubic& %rinsed to Bate what was the peculiar view of the fubjell which he himfelf entertained. He had no conteft to maintain with any Noble Lord ; but thought that at relent he was called upon to difcharge a grave and important public duty. Miniiter had too long gone on in a fyftem of concealment, and the Noble Lord in agitating the prefent queftion deferved his belt thanks. In the prefent awful fituation of pubic affairs, it was elTential that the real fituation of the country fhould be known. Parliament, at a period when we might be called on to male the greateft exertions, and fubmit to the largefi facrifices, ought above all things to know whether the revenue of the country had been placed on a footing equal to its expendi ture ; or whether there trilled a great deficiency, which was to be fupplied by that certain fource of national ruin, the expedient of peace loans ? While anxious to have fuch an inquiry inftituted, his Lordthip begged it to be clearly underflood, in deed it was hardly necefiary for him to ftate this, that it was very remote from his intention to (peak lightly of the reknirces of the country. No man could be more convinced than he was, that in a legitimate caufe the country poi:relied means not merely of effedually refitting aggreffion, but If upholding undiminithedthenadonal independence, and making any power grievoufly repent any at tempt to &boy that independence. It would, however, be a bale dereliaioii in any Noble Lord to shrink back from the talk of endeavouring to arcertain how far the refources of the country had been called into aflivity, fo as to make the public revenue correfpond with the public expenditure. 'Dm particular inquiry now propofed originated out of circuniftances which would be fleas in their Lordfhips' recolleCtion. It could not be for gotten, that at a very unufual period of the feffion, at the diltar.ce of a very few days from the reeds, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought pro rer to 1.4 before the other Houle of Parliament tie an!lc.pated budget of the year. He would not was no reafon for making thole ex• tra:1:1;. - try proceedings, and that it was not de. fq7ned to e..lnbit a true pieture of the ma! fatiauon • • of the Wintry. Even in that cafe, however, it betrayed incontrovertible proofs of ignorance, and coming to the public as it did, from authority, and profelfing to exhibit a view of the financial (late of the country, it was proper that it thould he fully c anvaffed. How far this imaginary budget was confident with truth, would, he was afraid, be but ton apparent when the real budget was brought forward ; ,an event there was every reafon to fun pore could not be delayed beyonda very few week s.' In calculating what were the wants of the year, and what the income of the country, the quettion came to be, whether a loan was neceffary ? 'l'o anfwer thisquellion,in the paper whichhelield in his hand, (a printed -.copy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's fpeech,) a ftatement was given of the at - WA expenditure and revenue of the country. — The refult of this flatemera was, that after ample provifion was made for the different branches of the public fervice, their would remain a furplus of a million applicable to u hatever emergency might occur. He was fore that Noble Lords had not forgotten the impreition which this flatement pro• duced among all ranks in the community. It was not eafy to defcribe the pleafure excited by the af furance that fo &writhing was the Rate of the re venue as to leave a million applicable to extraordi nary purples, or to the liquidation of the national debt, after covering all the expenditure, extentive as it was, at the conclution of a long war. He be lieved that with the people of the city it was not long before doubts of the accuracy of the ftatement began to be entertained. He would go farther, and would affert that a very (bore interval took place before it was generally difcredited. It was at this period, when it was falling into general contempt, that a Noble Lord oppotite (Lord Auckland) had fleppedforward,and not contented with offering to prove that the flatement was not exaggerated, de clared himfelf ready to (hew that it even fell confi derably below the truth. After ti earing this declara tion, he was ready to confefs that he had no longer any doubt of the neeeMty of inßituting an inquiry into the fubjeet. It was high time that the truth of the cafe fbould be known, when the truth of the Ratement bad been upheld not merely in the city, or among a largo proportion of the public, but, by a Noble Lord, who might be fuppofed to have the belt opportunities of information. He was glad that the Noble Lord who introduced the dif cutflon, had given him an opportunity of deliver ing his fentiments. What he undertook to prove was, not merely that there citified no furplus re venue, but, that a deficit, to a large amount, did exilt, which could be covered only by reforting to the ruinous fyltem of peace-loans, a fyftem never fufficiently to be reprobated by every wife govern ment. In proving this he ()meld be able clearly to demonttrate the exitlence of the groffeft and incr. cufable errors ; errors amounting to a deficiency of five millions, inftead of a furplus of one, as re prefented in the featement. In the Ratements he thould make, he wifhed to apprife Noble Lords, that he thould, with the exception of one or two cafes, draw all his fats from the accounts on the table ; from there accounts he would leave them to judge of the fallacy and delution of the Rate meat which had been fo triumphantly held out to the country. The whole of the expenditure, as defcribed in this Ratement, was eleven million. five hundred and thirty thoufand pounds ; from which, dedufeing the two Irith feverateenths, and a further rum payable by Ireland on the Confnlidated Fund, the amount was ten millions thirty-three thoufand pounds. To this, a further fum of five hundred thoufand pounds, arifing from the intereft on Ex chequer Bills, making the whole amount ten millions five hundred and thirty thonfandpounds, In this enumeration of the public expenditure, . there \vas one important article wholly overlook ed. This was the expence of extra building for the navy, which. within the halt year, he was informed on the belt authority, could not have been left than nine hundred thoufand pounds Without (eying any thing of the prefent Rate of the navy, which might be a fubjedt of future enquiry, he begged leave to Rate, that this was not a charge confined to a particular year, but one which was permanent. During the nine &ft years of the lag peace, the expellee for this article was not Ids than soo,oool. But when the greater fine and number of our (hips was confidered, and when, at the fame time the increafed price of labour was taken into view, the fame article could not, at this moment, colt lets than (even hundred thoufand pounds.— Let the (urn which he had mentioned be added to the former amount, and the refult would be, that the grofa amount of our expenditure would be above eleven millions two hundred and thirty-three thoufand pounds. In order to meet this expendi titre. the annual taxes and the furplus of the confo lidated fund were defcribod as amounting to ten millions five hundred and ninety-two thoufand pounds of clear revenue, undeillanding by that term, a revenue exiting after provifion was made for the iutereft of the payment of the public debt. The lottery was to be added to this, and though inllead of five hundred thoufand pounds only three hundred and feventy thoufand ought to he taken credit for, yet he was willing to give credit for the former fum. A further fum of live hundred thoufand was to be obtained as a contri bution from India. This, it was to be remem bered, was only a contingent advantage. If the Noble Lord who prefided over this depart ment of the Public Service, knowing, as he did, the talents and knowledge of the noble Lord, in every branch of the public fervice, had given any pofitive pledge that this (urn might certainly be calculated on. he thould look forward with confi dence to fuch a pledge. No fuel' pledge as this, however, had been received. On the contrary, it exprefsly depended on two circumllances, the continuance of peace both in Eurcpe and India.— How far it was probable that peace might be con tinued in Europe, he would not now take on han fell to determine. But even fuppoting that the peace of Europe was preferved, was not the peace of India liable to numerous interruption‘, which would neceffarily fuperfede the contribution ? But allowing credit to be taken for this fun., and for the lottery, the whole amount would be I I, 595 oocl. Having Rated this, his Lordfhip proceeded to in quire more minutely how far the reverse did exceed the expenditure He dented to know ~1 Nittinters what were the circumflanceso n which they grounded any expelations of a reduc tion of the national expenditure at the time when the tlatcment was produced. Miniflers were prelTed to fay, at the time when the peace ellablilhment was formed, what hopes they entertained of any redulion in that ellablithment, and their anfwer was not Inch as to encourage this hope. What was to h e thought of a Minifter who held out a vagne expedition of this kind, merely with the t view of exhibiting a piastre of the national reve -1 one, which he was confeicus was not correct ? It was dangerous and improper to form diaant efli. mates of redaction on the public expenditure, but if this was a principle at all times to be aged on, it W. 15 more peculiarly requisite when it was im. poflible to forefee the probability of (itch redudion. However large the expenditure might be, the fame principle Applied to the propriety of railing the revenue to a corresponding magilitude. He war; afionilhed to hear fomething like a contrary doc trine advanced by the nobl e Lo r d on t h e other ride. What was the Bate of the nation, if Inch a dodrio was ever carried into practice? Nothing but tins ,was wanting to fill tip the meafure of cledrußiois this devoted country. Hi, Lordfhip, after going into the illuftration of this point with his ufual force, proceeded to animadvert on the nature of the propofed reduction. On the fuppolition that there was a reduCtion in the expenditure of the army to the amount of 800,0001. what events have been.the confequence ? He had no other means of calculation, but by applying this to the reduCtioa of men. He did not over-rate the matter, when he Paid this would have oceafioned the difcharge of , 5,000 foldiers. But, if fince November to the time when his Majeßy's mefrage was delivered, Inch a number of men had been diftailfed, the obvious confequence would have been, that there would not have been a tingle regiment of infantry is Great Britain or Ireland. The propofed reduetioa was, therefore, totally inconfitlent with every con fider ation of fafety. Let the fame principle be ap. plied to the Navy. Admitting. as was hinted at, that a reduillion in the expenditure, to the amount of tdoo,oool. had taken place, the diminution of feamen would have been not lefs than 18,000. Now, without alluding particularly to what the prefent Rate of the Navy was, he would only fay. that if the diminution had taken place, we Should have now no navy at all. The amount of the re duaion, of expenditure by this plan, would have been two millions three hundred and forty thoufand pounds, but there was not the fmallell reafon to calculate on any reduCtion, and therefore the eta. blithment ought to have Rood in November IA at thirteen millions four hundred and eighty-fix thou land, Maud of the furor taken by Minifters. This, with the fum of pretended furpleis, created a rola and palabk error in thy: calculation. His Lord- Ship was particularly pointed en this topic. fie went on to make other calculations. to &est than a much larger deficit than this really etifled. He recurred to what had been Paid about the rata for extra building for the navy, which being an ar ticle . f unavoidable espence, ought not to have been ',witted. He touched on the prefent ditties on malt and hopes. The amount of there depend. cd in a great meafure op the feafon, and becaufe they woe high lad year. it was.not fair to. take them at the fame amount for other years- There was a circumftance worthy of their Lordilaips' at tention. It was, that the duties on matt were higher by five hundred thourand pounds left year than they had been nn an average of ten years. The amount of the duties on sugar had been much exaggerat ed as a pit of general revenue. With the glut thkt prevailed, both for confumption and exporta tion, thersmight hereafter be expeded to be a mow fsderable deficiency of the duty. Taking-there ' circutnltances into confederation, and others which he enumerated, his Lordihip contended that the public reroute was inferior by five -millions to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer reprefeot ed. He pointed out very eameftly the difadvan tages to be encountered in going ta war under fuch circumflances, and took oecafion to pars fount very fevere ftriftures °lithe general condatt of ifs-' nilters. He had n difguifed the fentiments he entertained of their adminiftration. He had never wished to conceal his difapprobation of the whole of their conduCi. Bet though the whole of their dornellic adrniniftration, though the whole of their foreign policy, and the condua of their negociations, had been condemned by him in the Orongeft manner; though he thought. their orders and their counter-orders; their armaments and difarmarnents; their revocations and their counter.revocations. were marked with the rented potlible proofs of imbecility, incapacity and folly. yet, he thought that thefinancialadminiftratioawai that molt particularly worthy of animadverfica. Here the Noble Lord was called to order by The Earl ofCovcarav,whocondemned thishaifh language, and fuggefted that the Noble 'Lord would be proceeding more regularly if he . moved an addtefs to his Majesty, praying that he would &finds his present fervants from his counfels. Lord GRENVILLI ott riling . fully adn. .ted the right of the Sovereign to appo int his own without the choice of Parliament. While he al. lowed that this was flritillyconftitutional, he never would ceale to maintain 'the right of Parliament i to exercife a jealous watch over the condua of :he ! Nlinillers of the Crown. As a Peer of "'Atli/sing' !he never Ihould forego this right, but humid it% lall cafes continue to'e3ercife it• with freedom un. reßrained by any conliderations but thole of re tonal decency. To Miniflers individually lie e tcrtained no fentiments of ill He diflike their meafures and lamented ti.eir incapacity. Reverting to the financial department. his Lard Ship examined in detail all the great financial rea Sloes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, each C which he warmly condemned. It was in this •:e partment more than in any other that Mini.le had Shrunk from the difficulties of the country. The Earl ntWasrmo AAAAA nollferved.that it w 3 extremely difficult to make an eftimate with any p: bable degree of certainty in time of war. If the was any thing like a material deficiency in ^ 1 branch of our revenue, a very confiderable flu r ;ti would be found in another department odour