Need advice on renting my first commercial location.
I'm setting up a coding school to teach people to write software.  The location isn't that important, it just needs to be some train line - of which there are many in NYC.

[I was looking at this location](http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/off/5637503125.html), which has it's flaws but it's close enough.  The problem is that they're asking $1500/mo.  It's not an unfair request, but they have been sitting on the open space for a few months, so there must be some reason it's not filled.  How reasonable is it to get them down to $1,000?  If so, which arguments are good points to discuss?  If not, where would you start if you were me?  

Basically I want to start a venture, but since it's all out of pocket, I'd rather be frugal.  It's worth mentioning that I can start now or wait months &amp; it's not a right away situation.  Thanks
[{"id": "d4fkpmz", "text": "I don't know the New York market, so I don't know if that's a fair rate or not. Other options are to ask for 1-3 months free rent up front so you're not spending a lot before you get business rolling.\n\nI have to ask though, how many students do you imagine teaching to in only 500 square feet? Is that going to be enough space? How soon might you outgrow the 500 sf? Does the landlord have more space available in the building?", "replies": [{"id": "d4fmt78", "text": "&gt; I have to ask though, how many students do you imagine teaching to in only 500 square feet? Is that going to be enough space? How soon might you outgrow the 500 sf? Does the landlord have more space available in the building?\n\n\nI thought to skip the details because it wouldn't interest /r/Commercialrealestate, but this will be a not for profit [501(c)(3)] that provides a completely free code camp.  I expect the place to be full from day one.  I don't even know if \"*full*\" will be 15 or 20 seats.  More?  \n\nI can handle the first year of expenses (which is why I'm trying desperately to get a good deal on rent) but after that it's up to the program to self fund.  That might include donors or it might include inexpensive labor from the students once they've achieved any level of proficiency.  I also don't know where the law is on this so I can't say.  After that, if I want to expand I would *much rather* do it in different buildings in different underprivileged neighborhoods.  So scaling within the building is not important.\n\nSo that's why I'm so cheap to get started &amp; unconcerned about the following years.  I'm happy to pay out of pocket if I'm helping but once it takes wings it should be able to support itself.", "replies": [{"id": "d4fu1uj", "text": "15-20 is an absurd amount of people for 500 SF. Even tech companies that use benching usually don't have much less than 100 SF per person.", "replies": [{"id": "d4fv6dm", "text": "Thanks for the input.  I've never set up a space, so I don't have personal experience.  Though my first thought is that it's an uneven comparison to compare a school to an office.  \n\nI based my estimates on the [Classroom design standards for NYS department of health](http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/961D691C-641D-4918-9798-8BA2C0A761FF/0/DOEFootprint_91114newlogo.pdf) - which is intended for public schools.  Students should have anywhere between 17 &amp; 22 square feet per student.  Which is about 22 - 28 students per 500 sq foot class room.\n\nKeep in mind that unlike an office, students won't keep personal effects there &amp; will only be there for 2-3 hours at a time.  I definitely want to offer a good learning environment, but offering 50% more space than the BOE should be sufficient.  It would also be wrong to deny students the opportunity so that others can have much more space than they need.\n\nEdit: Even if they were to have cubicles - though I didn't intend to give them that much space - then I could fit 10 people in 340 square feet [Using this cubicle](https://www.cubicle.com/product/ecocube-c015j/).  Why would I have a hard time fitting in 15-20 in a bench desk?", "replies": [{"id": "d4fviuw", "text": "Ok. I don't know if there are limits based on fire code, but keep in mind this is likely more than this space was designed for. Are people bringing laptops? I doubt there is enough power for 20 laptops to be plugged in at one time. What about HVAC? Is it strong enough to keep a room cool in the summer with 20 heat producing bodies in there? Just things to think about.\n\nAnd in thinking about Square Footage per person, most commerical spaces rent out at a \"rentable square footage\"   number that is higher than the actual \"usable square footage\" in the space as it includes a percentage of the common area hallways, restrooms, etc. So you may only have 450 SF or something of actual usable space (bring a tape measure to check). Also keep in mind you need space for the lecturer, space for pathways for people to walk ,etc. It's not just 100% seating/desk space. ", "replies": [{"id": "d4fvyqj", "text": "Very important points that I had not considered.  Thanks.\n\nThere won't be any laptops &amp; by complete coincidence the computers are going to be low power consumption.  They're [Raspberry Pi Model 3](http://amzn.com/B01CD5VC92)'s. The full reason is unimportant, but they consume about as much electricity as a cell phone charger.\n\nThough the cooling issue is important.  I will have to limit class size for the summer cycle. \n\nEdit; I just reread the note about the fire code.  That one might be the defining factor.  Definitely can't break the law to stubbornly add students.  I'll have to ask about that.  Thanks", "replies": [], "depth": 6}], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}, {"id": "d4fupih", "text": "You might comfortably get 6 students in 500 square feet (8 if you're packing them in). If you want to accommodate 15-20, you'll need quite a bit more, probably a minimum of 1000 sf. ", "replies": [{"id": "d4fvef1", "text": "Interesting.  Someone else mentioned the same issue below.\n\nThough, again, I have no personal experience and am only going by the NY State board of education standards for classroom design.  So I might be completely wrong, but I can't square the circle &amp; figure out why the numbers are so far apart.  \n\n\nEdit: Even if they were to have cubicles - though I didn't intend to give them that much space - then I could fit 10 people in 340 square feet [Using this cubicle](https://www.cubicle.com/product/ecocube-c015j/).  Why would I have a hard time fitting in 15-20 in a bench desk?", "replies": [{"id": "d4fvsja", "text": "That cubicle is only 340 SF if it's touching all four walls. You also need  pathways to reach it. Those pathways take up a much larger amount of SF than you think.", "replies": [], "depth": 5}, {"id": "d4g2ktz", "text": "That's a 6'x6' cubicle, so 36 sf each. You could fit 10 in 360 sf, if people could climb over the other cubicles to get to theirs. In other words, that number does not allow for any circulation space. you probably need a corridor at least 4' wide, and if you have the cubicles against the walls, the room would be 30' long, which is another 120 sf. So for a room completely packed with 10 of those small cubicles, you would need 480 sf. ", "replies": [], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "d4fnrrq", "text": "Know that most commercial leases are three years or five years long. What you want is one year and the option to renew on the same terms for a second and then a third year. \n\nDo not personally sign the lease or guarantee the lease of you can possibly help it (especially if you have to sign a lease longer than one year). Have a competent real estate attorney review the lease and the deal before you sign. It will be money well spent.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "d4fp2tm", "text": "I would be happy to help give you a few pointers on what to be aware of on a commercial lease (I cannot nor do I want to be your agent).  If you want to chat PM me and I will send my contact info your way.  I can talk anytime M-F during PST business hours.  I would post but there are so many variables that it results in a wall of text that just leads to more questions.", "replies": [{"id": "d4g1wkb", "text": "Awesome, thanks!  I need any help I can get.  Will PM you now", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "d4fun8r", "text": "Try to find a tenant representative who would be willing to work with you.\n\nThey are people who spend their whole lives doing what you're asking for. You don't pay them for your work, the landlord does.\n\nThey'll be able to help you get concessions like furniture, free rent, and other stuff for your lease, but that's about it. A 33% reduction in rent is unlikely, and it is not uncommon for space to sit for months at a time.\n\nGood luck.", "replies": [{"id": "d4fv96a", "text": "&gt; Try to find a tenant representative who would be willing to work with you.\n&gt; \n\nNice.  I had never heard of this.  Thanks for letting me know.\n\n&gt; A 33% reduction in rent is unlikely, and it is not uncommon for space to sit for months at a time.  \n\nFair enough.  I'll have to find a way then.  Thanks again", "replies": [{"id": "d4fz017", "text": "Forgot one thing, also look at co-working spaces and offices. They are more start up friendly, typically offer short term arrangements, and they offer amenities as well. I'm not familiar with what area of NY you are in but hopefully there is one not too far away.", "replies": [{"id": "d4g1uyr", "text": "I love startup spaces for programming.  For single or dual programmers, they're fantastic.  But for 500 sq ft rooms, they want more than triple what it would cost me to rent.  I wish I could, but it's too expensive", "replies": [], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "d4fyke4", "text": "You just need a classroom? Have you looked at your local maker space? You might be able to use the space free or cheap.", "replies": [{"id": "d4g1th3", "text": "This is a really cool idea, thanks!  \n\nUnfortunately there aren't any maker spaces in my part of town and it's important to me to give back to my community, near the local high school &amp; college.  Nevertheless, knowing this exists will be great for other workshops.  ", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}]