What is an associate Vice President? In Toronto it seems every third broker is a VP
There are so many of them in commercial real estate in Toronto. What is the difference between a ‘sales rep’ and ‘avp’?
[{"id": "hpy71xk", "text": "I\u2019m pretty sure every loan officer I\u2019ve ever dealt with is VP of something. It\u2019s just a title.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpya407", "text": "Title with slightly better split", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpyaq3d", "text": "Some commercial real estate companies give you a title depending on your volume of sales. The same happens with office spaces, the more sales you do, the bigger and better your working space. A new guy would get a desk, if lucky, while a gu with a lot of sales would get his own office.", "replies": [{"id": "hpz03zt", "text": "Right so I think I remember When I worked at Colliers that AVPs made $150K but not sure if my memory is failing me", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpycuou", "text": "Not your imagination. I see it as well. VP of nothing... I gave up putting stock in titles because of it. Which just devalues the people who actually earned them. Unfortunate.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpyiav9", "text": "Titles at most companies, especially at banks, mean nothing and are a ego boost unless it\u2019s CEO, CFO or COO.  Heck, I\u2018ve even known some bookkeepers who put their title as CFO at some small companies so maybe ignore titles altogether.  Basically companies give away fancy titles to people instead of raises to make the employees feel valued (and make the customer feel like their talking to someone important).  Remember Dwight Shrute in the office, Michael gave him the title of Assistant Regional Manager to make Dwight feel better\u2026so ya.  I even read that about 40% of Goldman Sachs employees are a Vice President.", "replies": [{"id": "hpz3mdt", "text": "I know lots of CEOs who don't have employees or offices or revenue.", "replies": [{"id": "hpz6i1o", "text": "Good point.  I\u2019ve met lots of John Smiths, CEO of John Smith Industries ha ha", "replies": [], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "hq0rz1p", "text": "No! He was Assistant \u201cto\u201d the Regional Manager.", "replies": [{"id": "hq0tcxt", "text": "Ha ha whoops", "replies": [], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpylt2h", "text": "VP at banks and brokerages is the first title above the grunt work level (Analyst/Associate), so it\u2019s just the first level of management.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzhojj", "text": "Most VPs don't manage people", "replies": [{"id": "hpzi2u3", "text": "Not directly but many/most have associates/analysts that get pulled in to assist on deals. It\u2019s not real managerial work but they are their superiors.\n\nRegardless, it\u2019s above analyst/associate level and is the first level that would be considered \u201cmanagement\u201d in the hierarchy, first level above junior level.", "replies": [], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpylxkb", "text": "Customers feel better dealing with a VP. The employee him/herself feel better about the title (hey, I don\u2019t have a good salary, but at least I have the title). It doesn\u2019t really change the quality of service or the outcome.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpyqezs", "text": "Easiest way is to translate.... No one works for them? Regular staff, 3+ people report to thrm? Manager. 15+ professionals inclusing managers reporting to them? Director. 25+ real VP (or MD at banks).   That is referring to professionals, excluding hourly workers. If including hourly employees its usually 2-5x that with a supervisor layer.\n\nObviously different companies are all unique but it helps to have a common translation and reference point.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzhukj", "text": "\n&gt;25+ real VP (or MD at banks).\n\nNope. Most VPs don't have reports. And theres a huge difference between VP and MD and most banks. There's also Director in between a lot of the times. And Senior VP in some places.", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpyqi46", "text": "Associate to the Vice President. Now there\u2019s a title that would catch my attention.", "replies": [{"id": "hpz7utz", "text": "Lmfaooo", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpyqxfl", "text": "AVP = The most junior management aka barely management", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpzhicu", "text": "It\u2019s all based on commission volume.  Vp, then svp, then evp, are typically the producers.  Director, managing director, and senior managing director are typically the actual people managers.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpzhl9g", "text": "a little higher than mid-level. 4-10 years of experience.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hpzls8x", "text": "In brokerage (and most sales based environments), titles are a recognition of performance and earnings. At most major firms (CBRE, JLL, Colliers, Cushman, Avison) the steps go as follows (usually 2 year average to qualify):\n\nAssociate - new broker, no requirement\n\nSenior Associate - $150k in gross earnings\n\nAssociate Vice President - $250k in gross earnings\n\nVice President - $500k in gross earnings\n\nSenior Vice President - $750k in gross earnings\n\nExecutive Vice President - $1M in gross earnings\n\nExecutive Vice Chairman - $3M in gross earnings\n\nGenerally speaking, you can rest assured that an Associate Vice President or higher that is working in their area of expertise is very competent and manages a significant volume of transactions annually.\n\nActual managers of people in brokerages are some variation of Director (Director, Managing Director etc...) or corporate officers (COO, CEO, CFO etc...).\n\nEdit: as an aside, please don't belittle broker titles. Yes, there are many Vice Presidents out there but trust me, the work, intelligence and grit it took to achieve that title are nothing to scoff at. Most brokers are building a business from scratch and take significant personal income risk doing so.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzns4v", "text": "Quite frankly, being a broker requires little skill and absolutely no risk. 96/100 of my broker interactions as a commercial property owner are entirely meaningless. They made an introduction (sometimes) and I worked out the details with the counter party directly. It\u2019s very rare for a broker to provide real value for me as a landlord.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzuoi9", "text": "Most brokers make no income except for what they can earn through their own deals when they start in the business. Of course they take risk. Implying otherwise is deliberately obtuse. \n\nAs for skill, go give it a shot. Learning your market, building a network and educating yourself on the mix of contract law, financial modeling, marketing, sales and the determination required to keep coming to work every day with no paycheck is nothing to scoff at. There's a reason good brokers earn what they do and don't hear a word from their institutional clients. \n\nIf you feel that way, then don't use brokers. You couldn't do it directly or you would have without their involvement. And if you see no value you're either not looking, or using the wrong brokers.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzy4ln", "text": "Yeah I do all of those \u201cskills\u201d as a developer and landlord. I don\u2019t see a payday for years in most cases. The brokers involved in my spaces take none of the financial risk I lay out by investing equity and putting my name and reputation on debt. \n\nIf I had a choice, there would never be a broker involved for any tenant space in my buildings. I have no control when I\u2019m contact by a tenant\u2019s broker but I have to pay for their services which provide me nothing.\n\nFar too often am I contacted by a broker days ahead of a closing asking about their commission when they did absolutely nothing over the course of the process. Maybe the \u201cfew bad apples\u201d corollary but as I noted before, a very small percentage of brokers help my end of things. \n\nMy most recent encounter - a restaurant tenant is taking over a space formerly occupied by a bank branch, the first tenant in this space in a new construction building. I lay out everything we have in the space in the landlord work letter, specifically calling out all utilities. This document goes through the LOI phase, the lease phase, and the lease gets executed. Next thing I know I\u2019m getting a call from the broker asking when I\u2019ll have gas service installed. \u201cWhat gas service?\u201d I ask. \u201cIt wasn\u2019t in the work letter as it doesn\u2019t exist in the space.\u201d Broker says, \u201cWell my client is a restaurant, of course they need gas.\u201d My entire lease (TI dollars, rent, etc.) is based on what\u2019s in that landlord work letter. So now I have to either (1) reduce TI reimbursement by the cost of the gas service or (2) increase rent to amortize the cost of the gas service over the term of the lease. New tenant is not happy about this, obviously, all because the broker, who is such an \u201cexpert\u201d in the market can\u2019t be bothered to actually read a document that\u2019s imperative to his client\u2019s business. \n\nI have dozens of similar stories if you want them.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzyyzw", "text": "Clearly there are less qualified brokers in the market and for what it's worth, I'm sorry you've had to deal with some. That restaurant/gas service anecdote is certainly unacceptable. That said, they did add quantifiable value by installing a tenant into your property.\n\nCertainly brokers take less risk than principals in development or value add deals, but they generally don't see the upside should deals achieve pro forma outcomes. Development is the highest risk/reward proposition in all of real estate, and anyone willing to put their equity on the line on their conviction that a deal will perform has my unequivocal respect.", "replies": [], "depth": 5}, {"id": "hrophdb", "text": "You guys are both dumbasses. Congrats, you met with a shiny new broker who doesn't fully understand the business needs of the sector he/she is working in and your dumbass didn't think to say \"Hey, you guys cook shit right?\" \n\nGet a property manager to do the leasing if you don't want brokers involved. Do you really want to answer 20 calls a day from some person trying to open a crystal and incense store?", "replies": [{"id": "hrpnk2c", "text": "Oh fuck off.", "replies": [], "depth": 6}], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "hpznx2z", "text": "What is considered a better title, Associate Vice President or Associate Director?", "replies": [{"id": "hpzuszn", "text": "Associate Director implies they manage some aspect of the brokerage - like a sales manager. Not necessarily better, just a different focus compared to an AVP which would be entirely focused on transactions.", "replies": [], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "hpzw4j5", "text": "This. On the Capital Markets team I worked for, title was dictated by annual production. After a 2-3 year analyst stint, you\u2019d either be A.) picked up by an existing team, B.) go out on your own to drum up capital placements, C.) stay on an analytical track with additional responsibility.\n\nThe exceptions to this rule are the banking brokerage groups (I.e. BMO CM, RBC CM, etc.), plus Peter Senst\u2019s team at CBRE. These shops operate on a tenure basis, where you\u2019re expected to be a top analytical performer for 5-7 years (shorter at CBRE) before becoming client facing. The hours are horrible, but you\u2019re compensated like your investment banking counterparts.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzwpd8", "text": "Good point on Peter's team (and Jim and Tony's in Vancouver). These guys work on a market share basis and are rewarded as a team so tenure and loyalty matter more given that individual production is hard to measure.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzwzrc", "text": "Agreed. As an anecdote, I\u2019ve heard that the Vancouver NIT team has far better hours, with less analytics on the underwriting front for junior employees.", "replies": [{"id": "hpzxfv2", "text": "That's just Vancouver brokerage in general compared to Toronto. \n\nThat said, they burn through support staff at a pretty quick rate and only one junior broker has really stuck around (Carter) so read into that what you will.", "replies": [], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "hq5d6tu", "text": "Most VP titles mean nothing.  In lending, the person with real authority has the title - Vice President of Commercial Lending.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}]