I feel discouraged and disappointed
I was reading Dave Ramsey's advices on how to start investing in Real Estate but I quickly got discouraged and disappointed. According to his article on his website, https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/how-to-invest-in-real-estate, 

he recommends to invest in real estate once I'm completely debt free - which sounds utterly impossible. That means, I have to wait 30 years, until I'm almost dying, to pay off my mortgage, then save thousands of dollar in 30 more years to buy a property CASH, no finance. This sounds more like investing for rich people! I feel very sad that I'm part of those 98% of the people who can't do business because is just too much money to put on. I have the idea, I want to do real estate investing - like a commercial real estate office or retail investment but it takes an extremely amount of money. Anyone has any thoughts and advice for this poor kid? I'm 24 years, thank you!
[{"id": "ew32zuv", "text": "It's almost as if there's more than one way to invest and manage money", "replies": [{"id": "ew332v5", "text": "Find a rich person, convince them to front almost all the cash, you do the work for free or negotiate a fee up front, and a percentage of the sale price", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew334cu", "text": "Dave Ramsey's advice is garbage for anyone with financial sense.  \n\nThere is bad debt and good debt.  He does not distinguish between the two or how to properly leverage debt.  Good debt produces income from an asset.  Bad debt does not produce income (aka a car) and is only a liability.\n\nQuick example:\n\nIf you have 50k and want a 25k car:\n\n\\- finance the car\n\n\\- go buy a rental property with a loan the produces enough income to pay for the house and car\n\n\\- in 5 years, your car is paid off and you still have an asset producing income.\n\n(note: this is an oversimplification of an example, but the process works)\n\nDave Ramsey makes money by keeping people poor.  He does not teach financial literacy. Not all debt is created equally.  Go learn proper financial education and throw Ramsey's stuff in the trash.  \n\nThis is my calm response about the Ramsey cult.", "replies": [{"id": "ew33jpe", "text": "I agree. What you have to consider is who his audience is. The people turning to him for advice are in a ton of debt or are just starting to get their financial life in order. His advice is good for his audience, but at a certain point you have to move onto another system.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3oocb", "text": "Do consider his audience.  His advice is horrible even for them because it activate does teach financial control.\nRamsey does not thing anyone needs anything else.  His advice is the only way and he advocates against anything else.  The 30 seconds I listened to a called, with no debt, asked if he should put a large down payment on a rental property or wait until he had cash.  Ramsey's answer was wait until you have cash.\nThe argument Ramsey is for people with debt is wrong because he gives the exact same advice to people without debt regardless of their financial position.  \nHe neglected properly leveraging debt, the caller's large savings account is losing value against inflation or an alternative place to park cash until saving up enough to purchase a rental property.\nI get it - Ramsey is the debt payoff guy and that is why people go to him.  Well, I think he gives shit advice.  \nI have friends who cannot get ahead financially because their spouse \"is on the Dave Ramsey program.\"  \nImagine a health consultant that tells every single person to go carb free (without discussing any other facet of healthy eating or exercise.  Yeah, it might work for a handle full of people, but for the vast majority of people they need a healthy eating plan along with an exercise plan.  \nA broken clock is right twice a day......", "replies": [{"id": "ew54qg9", "text": "Any recommendations on who yo read up on in order to set yourself up to be able to own properties to rent out to people? That's ultimately my goal (Maybe 8-10 years from now.)", "replies": [{"id": "ew5le0w", "text": "Depends on what type of real estate you want to be in.  I do not know commercial, so I cannot recommend any books on the topic.  \nI am a residential guy - single family and moving into multifamily.  My favorite book is The ABC's of Real Estate by Ken McElroy.  It is part of the Rich Dad Poor Dad series.  \nNo Money Down by Robert Allen is a good book.  A big caveat he gives that most people over look is he considers less than 5% into the property/deal no money down.   Do not be discouraged by that.  He talks about wholesaling too.  \nI also recommend listening to various podcasts.  Search the real estate category of your podcast app and find one the resonates with you.", "replies": [{"id": "ew5mxek", "text": "My day job is commercial/retail properties and I don't think I'd have the mind for that... I would like to look into multifamily, like duplexes and the like, but im far off with that. Need to get my capital up, and some debt down. Thanks for the recommendation, I'll take a look.", "replies": [{"id": "ew5orkp", "text": "&gt; I don't think I'd have the mind for that\n\nYou can learn it.  The question to ask yourself is do you like it?  Real estate investing involves big numbers and a lot of stress, so you gotta love what you do.  There will be ups and downs and sometimes feels like a roller-coaster.  \nGood luck in starting your venture and education.", "replies": [], "depth": 7}], "depth": 6}], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "ew33ot5", "text": "I don\u2019t agree with Ramsey\u2019s tactics for me, but it\u2019s really good advice for the masses. Because the masses are dumb and don\u2019t have any plan of how to make their net worth go up.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3o5hf", "text": "Exactly why Ramsey's education is garbage.  The masses are financially illiterate because no one teaches financial education on a large scale.  His platform could teach financially literacy while teaching people to control and pay down debt.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3wieu", "text": "I disagree,  they are financially illiterate because they don't want to put effort in learning. In today's world,  with the internet,  the only reason to be ignorant,  is your own willingness to remain ignorant. \n\nRamsey's advice is good for people where I grew up at, in rural America,  who will probably never get a pay increase that goes above the cost of living.  In their case they must learn to live within their means. Or people who are educated young professionals who suddenly got good jobs with lots of money but can't budget if their lives depend on it. Once they get squared away then they will move on to making money work for them.", "replies": [{"id": "ew4kvm0", "text": "&gt; In today's world,  with the internet,  the only reason to be ignorant,  is your own willingness to remain ignorant. \n\nThat is grossly inaccurate.  How can one know what questions to ask when one does not know what to ask?\nYou assume everyone has the same base knowledge and experiences as you do, and the is a logically flaw.  \nI repeat what I have said else.  Ramsey's advice is for debt elimination and not financial literacy, and in my book, that make is garbage.  The OP asked about Dave Ramsey and purchasing a commercial property.  Ramsey's advice/guidance/cult leadership is garbage for investment and financially literacy.", "replies": [{"id": "ew4qyiq", "text": "We are going to have to disagree on that one, I started with the School of Dave to stabilize and save before moving on. I still consider him a valuable starting source. I've often said \"Dave Ramsey is my financial shield, the others are my financial sword\".\n\nSadly, I may have to concide to your point on others not knowing what question to ask.\n\nEdit: I do want to add that Dave Ramsey focuses on religious finance beliefs,  and the bible does say that debt is a sin, though so is collecting intrest on money.", "replies": [{"id": "ew4ztcg", "text": "I admire you for using Ramsey by eliminating debt and then educating yourself further in finances.  Well done, truly.  \nI do not care what the bible says on the topic.  I also was going to ignore the fact Ramsey prays (pun intended) on religious people, but since you went there, yes, Ramsey takes advantage of the religious crowd to monetize his business and provide financial freedom for his family.\nmoving on.....\nyes, Ramsey's advice is good for beginners or those who struggle with debt management; however, I will always call his education garbage because he refuses to admit/teach there is some good debt.  \nA quality coach, mentor, educator must admit when there is a next phase of learning, and Ramsey actively says NEVER incur debt and to actively stay on the Ramsey path so he can sell more stuff to them.  That is the horrible part.  \nIf he had a part A - eliminate debt and then Part B - here is how you properly manage debt, I would be good with his education and probably be a fan.  \nInstead he goes Part A - eliminate debt and Part B - NEVER incur new debt as if that is the only way, so I am an anti-fan.", "replies": [{"id": "ew52wnv", "text": "I see where you are coming from, I often warn people of the same.", "replies": [], "depth": 8}], "depth": 7}], "depth": 6}], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "ew3ntay", "text": "This weekend I listened to a 7 min video by Ramsey just for him to end with selling his real estate agent services - I was like oooh you sunuvabitch. Should\u2019ve seen this coming. Good for him for making US his business, but he is definitely in the fear tactics and selling us his services business", "replies": [{"id": "ew3ordp", "text": "This is my point about Ramsey.  He is in the business of making money not helping people get out of debt.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3ov5z", "text": "Which is fine.  Great for him building a business.  Get it done.  But, I will continue to actively tell friends, family, strangers on Reddit, stray dogs, flocks of birds and anything else with ears there is a better way.", "replies": [], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}, {"id": "ew3rlq8", "text": "This is true, my father in law doesn\u2019t have a credit card because of him even though when we vacation together I always travel on points and he pays cash lol", "replies": [{"id": "ew4lbf9", "text": "Maybe it is the older generations more in line with Ramsey's age.\nMy mom constantly uses her debit card and is surprised when there is fraud and the money remains out of her account until the dispute is resolved.\nI keep telling her to use a credit card because when there is fraud, the money is not out of your bank account while the dispute is resolved.  \nShe learned no credit cards from Dave Ramsey, which in turn has caused financial problems when her debit card was fraudulently used (several times mind you).", "replies": [], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew33uov", "text": "People are so scared of banks...they\u2019re you\u2019re friends! 3.5% down to buy up to 4 income producing units is free fucking money! Even if you mess up EVERYTHING and you go bankrupt you only have to wait 7 years and POOF it\u2019s like they forgot it all happened and you get to start again! You don\u2019t see Jonathon Grey from blackrock or Silverstein Properties or Harry Macklowe using all cash to buy real estate, so why should you? Look at who\u2019s a real mover in real estate and mimic...whoever pays cash for an appreciating asset is beyond me", "replies": [{"id": "ew340xw", "text": "That 3.5% downpayment is whats killing me. I'm in route to make $20k of savings in 3 years from now. Still, i think is not enough though.", "replies": [{"id": "ew34mub", "text": "You have to start working more or get a better job", "replies": [], "depth": 3}, {"id": "ew359sk", "text": "I read that you\u2019re 24. At 24 be a bartender on the weekend nights, get a roommate, get a second job. It\u2019s gonna be work, it\u2019s gonna fucking suck, but if you don\u2019t do it someone else will. Also 20k at 3.5% is 600k of buying power. If that is what you need to buy something in your area I would reconsider in my opinion . Look at margins and appreciation rates rather than outright cost. Find something you can add value to. If you want the commercial route, find something 2-4 units that needs an appropriate amount of upgrades to raise the rents to an acceptable market rate. That\u2019s a great way to get your feet wet and really it\u2019s the base to everything bigger than that in terms of apartments.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3p3m0", "text": "Sound advice.  \n\nYou can also wholesale deals to build cash.  Build relationships with local investors, find out what they want, go find those deals, put it under contract and then sell the contract to the other investors.  Lots of work but you do not need much money do it; just time and the money for marketing.", "replies": [], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew370sk", "text": "When Ramsey was young he over leveraged himself in real estate and then lost it all . So that is one reason he says to only buy investment property in cash . \n\nI don\u2019t know the figure but I\u2019m guessing 80% or more of investors use leverage , if they buy in cash they are likely refinancing .. and taking debt  out at some point.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew392w2", "text": "His real business is selling books and quack advice. Best to tell anyone spouting his info to duck off.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew3c6qe", "text": "If you can keep your leverage to around 60-65%, I think you\u2019ll be alright.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew3cgna", "text": "Are you in a career tangentially related to commercial real estate? You are 24, network with real estate professionals, learn their stories, get a mentor. This is a rich mans game, and you are poor, so fix that. The only one capping your income is you. \n\nThere are opportunities out there, learn the market, learn how to get a deal done, learn real estate law, learn something that can take you where you need to be. \n\nHow one dude made it is not how all dudes make it, go out there, meet some dudes, be willing to get a little sweaty, and the hard money will come your way.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew3pfn7", "text": "Dude.  Positive leverage is a real estate investor's single most powerful tool.  The right debt can easily boost your cash on cash return by 3-4% and your IRR by 5% or more.  In my career, I've only come across one guy that wanted to pay cash for a property.    \n\n\nSource: an analyst for 20m sf landlord.", "replies": [], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew3qckn", "text": "Never read any of his stuff myself but from what I\u2019ve heard about it, the concept of debt free investing is utter garbage!\n\nI\u2019m sure I\u2019m just reiterating what everyone else has said, but i feel the need to vent bc that advice is soo asinine, especially in RE, that it infuriates me!\n\nPart of the beauty of REI is having your tenant pay off your mortgage! In 15, 20, or 30 yrs you will own a property free and clear (while hopefully cash flowing), and all you had to do is keep it rented and maintained. \n\nMost people will not be able to buy anything if they have to wait to buy it cash, but the biggest thing you have right now (no matter who you are and how old you are) is time value!! Renting truly is throwing away money bc you\u2019re paying off someone else\u2019s mortgage while they profit, so why wouldn\u2019t it make every bit of financial sense to get in on that racket?! \n\nLack of financial literacy (at least from what I\u2019ve seen here in the US) is quickly becoming a problem. I\u2019m going to have to read this guy\u2019s stuff to see where he\u2019s coming from, but spewing this crap to people that don\u2019t actually understand finances is just irresponsible and IMO criminal! \n\nIt reminds me of the feud between Jon Stewart and Jim Cramer after the financial crisis.. Jon has Jim on the show to end it, and he broke his funny guy character and told Jim basically \u201cwe\u2019re both snakeskin oil salesman to a degree, but here we label it that. People think you\u2019re real, but you\u2019re f**king with peoples lives &amp; their money.\u201d This Ramsey guy sounds just as bad! \n\nSomething to make this comment redeemingly  constructive:\n\nwhen making the decision to invest, you should take out a loan anytime the cash flows from the investment are paying even a penny more than the cost of the loan (after taking into account vacancies and every other expense. Be as conservative with these assumptions you want until you feel comfortable!) \n\nWhen dealing with debt, you should only pay down more than required when you have a healthy rainy day fund and absolutely nothing else to invest it in. When you pay down debt you\u2019re essentially investing at the given interest rate, so invest in the most profitable \u201cinvestment.\u201d If your mortgage is 3.5% and your car loan is 7%, don\u2019t be blinded by the allure of paying off your house, \u201cinvest\u201d in the 7% loan since it returns you more!\n\nTLDR; used responsibility, debt is good and is the key to long term wealth in RE. If you can\u2019t understand this then perhaps you should just put your money in some nice indexed funds in your 401k and hope social security is still around to support you in retirement.", "replies": [{"id": "ew3qcxn", "text": "Hello. In order to promote inclusivity and reduce bias, please consider using gender-neutral language in the future.\n\nInstead of **salesman**, use **salesperson**, **sales associate**, **salesclerk** or **sales executive**.\n\nThank you very much.\n\n^(I am a bot. Downvote to remove this comment. For more information on gender-neutral language, please do a web search for *\"Nonsexist Writing.\"*)", "replies": [], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}, {"id": "ew403my", "text": "I know personal experiences aren't good for general advice, but I purchased a commercial property at age 26 and have had a great time owning it. 2 years later and it's paying for itself (mortgage, insurance, utilities etc) and is also covering all of my personal bills, with a little cash left over. So I keep 100% of my take home pay from my job to spend, save or invest as I like. If you have the money for a down payment and an emergency fund, I say go for it.", "replies": [{"id": "ew446yv", "text": "I'm currently saving for ny downpayment I might encounter. My savings is not much, maybe a couple thousands of dollars. But I really want to do this, I want to go for this bussiness so bad. I'm currently looking for a mentor, reading books about commercial real estate, and saving for downpayment all the same time. Still need to make appointments with accountants and lawyers to make a decision.", "replies": [{"id": "ew4f1kf", "text": "Awesome, keep it up. Just keep in mind that most commercial real estate loans will require 20% down, vs a home loan that could be as low as 3%. So you'll need a good bit of money before you can get started.", "replies": [{"id": "ew4fxjx", "text": "So I have a question and very curious about this one: are you familiar with the SBA 504 Loan? I've researched it and it sounds great.", "replies": [{"id": "ew7og1v", "text": "Yes I looked into that when I was getting a loan. Good on paper, but was never able to find a bank that would partner on it. Their justification was that my property would not.... \"The project you\u2019re financing must create or retain jobs or promote other public policy goals\" ....which is a requirement to qualify. That said, pursue it yourself, you may have better luck than I did.", "replies": [], "depth": 5}], "depth": 4}], "depth": 3}], "depth": 2}], "depth": 1}]