There's only matter. There's only the universe, all eternal. And we need to learn how to play by the rules. There is only, according to Jainists, the universe that is all eternal. They also believe that Jainism has been around forever, that it is eternal as well. And they divide the universe basically into two different, you want to call them substances, we'll call one jiva, soul, the eternal life force. And they believe that our souls and the souls of animals and plants and every living being is eternal as well, that it's always existed.