Well, it's going to be your change in y values, so it's going to be natural log of x minus 1 over your change in x values. That's x minus e. So that's the slope of the secant line between those two points. Well, what if you want to get the tangent line? Well, let's just take the limit as x approaches e. As x gets closer and closer and closer, these points are going to get closer and closer and closer, and the secant line is going to better approximate the tangent line. So we're just going to take the limit as x approaches e. So either one of this, this is using the formal definition of a limit. Let me make clear that that h does not belong part of it. So we can either do it using the formal definition or the alternate definition of the derivative.