# Talk:Credit cloning
&gt;The technique is very time consuming and must not be done if you don't have enough food.
People who don't have enough food most of the time shouldn't deliberately
exploit shopkeepers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by N8chz (talk • contribs) 
Would this be considered cheating?  You are exploiting a shopkeeper's ignorance of your gold theft, giving you access to all of his gold.  Exploitation could be defined as a form of cheating.  --MadDawg2552 04:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Only as much as techniques such as Pet stealing is considered cheating. Pet stealing (have your pet steal items) is exploiting the shop keepers ignorance of your pet stealing things. I think its a player choice. Zaffle 04:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
&gt; Thus, the easiest shop to rob this way is delicatessen.
I disagree. Credit cloning in a deli takes forever because the items for sale there are so cheap. The best shop to rob has a few expensive items, otherwise you have to pick up and drop everything a gazillion times.

Well, if you can get a stack of holy/unholy water that speeds things up. But still, I'm with you that there are much better stores to rob than delicatessens. Shops with expensive lightweight items like rings and wands are best. Will edit the strategy section to say as much. Action 52 23:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)action
Contents

1 pet carrying capacity
2 table might be 1-2 off
3 todo: clarify 2 bags
4 confusions about credit cloning

pet carrying capacity
A pet's carrying capacity is both a limiting factor and hard to guess in my experience. Obviously, a little dog won't steal a plate mail, but just how much can you put into that bag of holding? I don't know where to look, could someone else please provide some numbers?
Tjr 20:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
update: source diving isn't all that hard - copy'n'paste from
Mon.c#max_mon_load:
/* Base monster carrying capacity is equal to human maximum
934.  	 * carrying capacity, or half human maximum if not strong.
935.  	 * (for a polymorphed player, the value used would be the
936.  	 * non-polymorphed carrying capacity instead of max/half max).
937.  	 * This is then modified by the ratio between the monster weights
938.  	 * and human weights.  Corpseless monsters are given a capacity
939.  	 * proportional to their size instead of weight.
940.  	 */
Tjr 17:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The table can't be right - I have seen large cats and dogs pick up plate mails.  It seems to me that a strong monster can carry at least as much as a human, or more if the strong monster is heavier than a human.  Some more lines from Mon.c#max_mon_load:
941.  	if (!mtmp-&gt;data-&gt;cwt)
942.  		maxload = (MAX_CARR_CAP * (long)mtmp-&gt;data-&gt;msize) / MZ_HUMAN;
943.  	else if (!strongmonst(mtmp-&gt;data)
944.  		|| (strongmonst(mtmp-&gt;data) &amp;&amp; (mtmp-&gt;data-&gt;cwt &gt; WT_HUMAN)))
945.  		maxload = (MAX_CARR_CAP * (long)mtmp-&gt;data-&gt;cwt) / WT_HUMAN;
946.  	else	maxload = MAX_CARR_CAP; /*strong monsters w/cwt &lt;= WT_HUMAN*/
947.  
948.  	if (!strongmonst(mtmp-&gt;data)) maxload /= 2;
i.e. the code does not exactly match the comments here.  I'll work out the exact details and correct the article as soon as possible.
Ekaterin 08:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

table might be 1-2 off
I applied the formula in the source code and rounded after each *, /, + ... I am not sure if the integer division "%" in C rounds or cuts off, so the numbers might be 1-2 off. Tjr 16:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

todo: clarify 2 bags
Someone should be clarify there are two bags involved - one filled with gold that the pet steals, lying on the floor most of the time, and the other to make repeatedly dropping and picking up a lot of items more convenient. I just don't know where/how to put it without worsening readibility.Tjr 16:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

confusions about credit cloning
the description of credit cloning is confused and incomplete

1. There is no need to have your pet steal gold where it is first mentioned. That belongs at the end when all possible gold has been extracted from the shopkeeper for a single round.. Putting the gold two steps in from the doorway should be mentioned as the best place from which to have the pet steal it.

Only possible if you have enough stuff to sell to deplete the shopkeeper's inventory. And you might need to buy the stuff back if you can't steal it back. In the early game you can drop your gold for credit, steal it, then repeatedly buy and sell something from the shop to extract shopkeeper gold.
2. It needs to be mentioned to drop all gold after each round of selling just-bought items or already owned items, and that doing so adds to credit so that several rounds of buying and selling can be done before stealing the gold from the shop, and also that dropping the gold before the buying half of a round prevents the shopkeeper from taking gold back from your inventory to pay for stuff.

Mentioned with "Drop the old + new gold in the shop and repeat from letting your pet steal it." (last step).
3. It needs to be mentioned that pets, like players, will need nourishment to make this work.

Mentioned. "Be careful that your pet doesn't starve to death while credit-cloning."
4. It needs to be mentioned that tripe rations / apples or carrots as appropriate in open inventory are also helpful to speed stealing by keeping pet-within-shop close to the PC and thus to the gold.

Possibly worth adding. However I'd say that just keeping the pet close isn't especially helpful, as what really matters is the pet's willingness to pick up items first.
5. It needs to be mentioned that gold can be split into several piles near the door if the pet is not able to steal it all at once because it is too heavy.

Large cats/dogs and all horses can carry 1,000 units of weight, or 100,000 gold. Roughly 4 times that if placed into a bag of holding. Even a kitten/little dog can carry 5,200 gold unassisted. You will not have more than 5,200 gold before it is easy to get a large cat/dog, and you will never bother trying to credit clone 100k gold because it's very heavy to carry around and overkill. Splitting should only be necessary in SLASH'EM, as overkill credit cloning in SLASH'EM still isn't enough, and pets are forced to split gold piles on their own.
6. It needs to be mentioned that the pile should be created next to a wall where a typed "y" will not cause motion, because the player is going to want to hold down the "y" key to answer repetitive inquiries from the shopkeeper.

That's basic movement strategy, not really credit cloning strategy. It's also completely avoided by using the numpad.
7. The highest speed strategy (to save steps) is to drop the newly acquired gold each time on the pile, being careful not to pick it back up, in rounds of buying and selling, and then to pick it up and carry it to the door for stealing only when all possible buy/sell cycles have been exhausted.

Possibly worth mentioning, but how many steps could a player expect to save in following a rigid movement pattern? I find that the most time is wasted waiting for the pet to pick up the gold.
8. Dropping all owned items brought into the shop by the PC, appropriate to the shop, and not needed for self defense or nourishment, to add to gold dropped, should go with creating the pile initially, not be mentioned later.

Probably should be mentioned. The problem is that you'll probably want to buy all that stuff back, and with shopkeeper markup prices will just require additional cloning. Plus if something should go wrong, i.e. the pet suddenly dies in combat or something similar you'll lose all those items until you can resume cloning. Just risking your gold is infinitely safer, as about the only use for your gold is priests and shopkeepers.

Kent Paul Dolan, xanthian@well.com, in case I don't have a siggie set up here in advance, which a preview shows that I don't..
98.177.241.25 07:16, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
Added immediate comments (one indentation). -- Qazmlpok 18:22, March 25, 2010 (UTC)