# Talk:Unwinnable
I tweaked some of the language because I felt like being pedantic.  As I understand it, it is not necessary to "complete the quest" at all to win the game--you just have to get the bell from the nemesis, and you don't even have to kill the nemesis to do that.  Completing the quest involves getting the quest artifact and returning it to the quest leader, yes?  None of which, if my understanding is correct, is necessary for getting the Bell and moving on down the dungeon.  In fact, I'm just learning how to do a Barbarian now, and I might just leave that crappy Heart of Ahriman where it lies.--Ckbryant 00:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Contents

1 Importance
2 Ticking off your quest leader
3 Changing alignment back
4 SLASH'EM
5 Unwinnable by destroying the artifact keys
6 Unlightable Candelabrum
7 Condition 7

Importance
Is this page really useful? No game is generated unwinnable because, at the start, most of the game isn't even generated at all. As it only mentions one scenario, it could probably be merged into altar, alignment and/or Quest. 65.110.6.33 01:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I have obtained the Bell of Opening in a few games, but I always die before finding the Candelabrum or Book. From my perspective, the games (that I win not) were not unwinabble. An unwinnable game is apparently an alignment problem, so I would think that someone would merge unwinnable into alignment, if there was a merge. --Kernigh 03:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it also unwinnable if one wears a helm of opposite alignment before the quest (for the same reason)?

Taking off the helmet will restore your alignment back to what it started at.  --MadDawg2552 00:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Unwinnability is not just an alignment issue. It is possible to find oneself invisible in a shop without the ability to cover up, teleport out, or defeat the shopkeeper. Or by tricking the guard into leaving you in a vault only to realize that you have no way to dig or teleport out. Or by burying a necessary item in a pit covered by a boulder. I think others exist, but those are the two that come to my mind. I think this page is an interesting and important addition to the Wiki and more should be done it not less. Roland St. Jude 23:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite sure that another guard will eventually enter the vault.  Also, if you bury an item, you can dig it up later.  The one about being invisible in a shop happened to me, once:  I tried on a cloak and it was a cursed cloak of invisibility.  It might be possible to close the door, kick it in, and either pay off the shopkeeper or run like hell; it depends on how fast the door gets repaired.--Ray Chason 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Being locked in a shop with no escape doesn't make a game unwinnable, it simply makes it exceptionally difficult to win and you'll probably die soon. If you permanently change alignment before the quest, the game cannot be won. There is absolutely nothing that can be done, no great stroke of luck or brilliant strategy that will let you ascend. If you are locked in a shop you can kill the shopkeeper, or if you're lucky just teleport him away, dig out, break down the door and run like hell, etc. It's theoretically possible for a level 1 character to kill a shopkeeper, e.g. if it is randomly generated with a wand of death that misses you (twice) and kills the shopkeeper. If you find yourself stuck in a 2x2 room in minetown with no digging item it's still possible to escape by waiting for a randomly generated rockmole to take out the walls. -- Qazmlpok 02:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Ticking off your quest leader
If you anger your quest leader, he'll kick you out of the quest and vanish the magic portal. (I did this recently, thinking that the quest leader would fully ID the Bell like he did with my quest artifact if I threw it at him: whoops!) I could theoretically have gotten the Eye and branchported back to pick up the Bell, since I was a neutral non-wizard, but if this isn't feasible, does it render the game unwinnable as well? Obviously, this is a "doctor it hurts when I do this/so stop doing that" situation, but then again so is accidentally converting yourself. - Tagmata 01:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. -Tjr 10:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Changing alignment back
Can't you do the altar thing a second time to get back to your original alignment? Or does that still not make it possible to go on the quest?

Nnnnnnnope.  Thou hast betrayed me.  Thou art naughty in My sight.  Depart from me, thou vile apostate.--Your God. (OK, it was really Ray Chason 03:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC).)
SLASH'EM
So I just tried this out in wizard mode.  You don't actually need the alignment keys to get the Candelabrum; if you don't have them, you can still wake up Vlad with a mind flayer's psychic blast, and when he teleports to meet you he will have the Candelabrum.  You don't need an alignment key to open the door next to the down staircase, so he'll have space to meet you.  Given that this article doesn't mention a lot of other situations that make the game seemingly impossible to win but in fact have obscure/difficult solutions, such losing the Amulet in water or lava, having one of the invocation items stolen, etc, I'm thinking it might be better to just remove that section altogether if nobody objects.  For now I've just rewritten it, but do people think it should be removed? -Ion frigate 02:53, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

And another thing: locking any vital items behind the doors and destroying the keys doesn't work either.  To get around that, all you need to do is lure an appropriate covetous monster (the Wizard of Yendor works for the Amulet and the invocation items) into Vlad's Tower, and they will fetch the items for you.  So, in short, it doesn't seem like the unbreakable doors in Vlad's tower can make the game unwinnable. -Ion frigate 03:02, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
Unwinnable by destroying the artifact keys
Well you could always accidentally destroyed your key of chaos by putting a bag of holding into your wallet and have genocided "h" thankfully I was avoiding the lawful quest and I didn't put the key of neutrality in my wallet.  Assuming I had would the game have been unwinnable?Ndwolfwood 21:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

No. If all else fails, you can lure the Wizard of Yendor into Vlad's Tower. He will attack Vlad, causing him to teleport to you. --Tjr 21:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Unlightable Candelabrum
The candelabrum can be made unlightable in a rare corner case. User:Qazmlpok put the details on Talk:Candelabrum_of_Invocation. Should this be mentioned here? --Tjr 23:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Condition 7
Unless I'm mistaken, this requires you to have the Eye, meaning you have to be either neutral or a wizard.  I think this is worth mentioning, so I'll go ahead and add it.  Feel free to remove if I'm wrong. -Ion frigate 19:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

(Should have replied before undoing.) If the ammy is trapped in the Quest, you don't need quest permission anymore. Therefore it's safe to convert yourself to neutral so you can wish up the Eye and branchport into the quest. Your leader will expel you just fine along with the Amulet. Of course, this assumes your artifact wishes don't fail and there is at least one neutral altar. There is a 74.31% chance of at least one neutral altar in the main dungeons and mine town, ignoring random temples, other special rooms, and bones. --Tjr 22:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh, good point.  I think it might still be worth mentioning, though - maybe something like "Exception: Wizard, neutral or able to convert to neutral."  Given that people tend to convert altars in the early game, there probably are a decent proportion of games that have no neutral altar.  And if there's currently no neutral altar in all of the main dungeon, there never will be one.  It's not like the case of having not enough candles and no wishes, where you can just farm for more candles/wishes, or even like chaotic/lawful altars, where a HoOA can make you able to convert it to the right alignment. -Ion frigate 04:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)